Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Treize69 on February 26, 2009, 08:13:28 AM
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A buddy of mine at work let me borrow a couple of them, and despite the oddness and "grain of salt" factor, I have to admit that I'm hooked on them, to the extent that I just bought the next two of the "Great War" series to finish it up and the first book of the "American Empire" series to keep it going.
For the vast majority unfamiliar with them (as I was until the first one showed up on top of my locker a few weeks ago), he's written a long and intricate series based on the "what if?" premise of the South having won the Civil War and the Confederacy surviving into the 20th Century. The series starts with the famous Special Order 191 that was found by the Union before Lee's first Invasion of Maryland not having been lost- as a result, the Confederates invasion is successful and they deal the Union a crushing defeat at a Pennsylvania battle referred to simply as "Camp Hill" (aside from a few snippets, you never get a real detailed look at what happened). This victory prevents Lincoln from ever issuing his "Emancipation Proclomation" (which he felt confident enough to release after the Union victory at Antietam IRL) and causes the British and French to extend recognition to the Confederate States of America in 1862. The story then jumps ahead to 1881 (the CSA still has slavery, James Longstreet is President and Stonewall Jackson, who never had the chance to die at Chancellorsville, is the Commanding General of the CS Army; and Lincoln is still alive and a social pariah for having gotten the US into a losing war. And That Damn Fool Custer is still alive) and what is later referred to as the "Second Mexican War", when the CSA annexes two provinces from Mexico to allow them access to the Pacific (making them a continent-spanning nation like the USA) and causing the USA and CSA to go to war again. Britian and France come to their allies aid (invading Montana from Canada, shelling and closing the Great Lakes ports, and blockading the Atlantic and Pacific coasts) and hands the USA their second crushing defeat in a generation. Afterwards, they formalise an alliance with the only European power that has been anything close to friendly with them- Imperial Germany.
The story then jumps ahead to 1914, when the US (which is formally part of the Central Powers and very closely allied with Germany after 30+ years of cooperation) and the Confederacy (part of the Quadruple-entante with France, Britain and Russia) get involved right off the bat. The confederates expect another quick and easy victory like the last two, but much has changed in the US- the US Army is now structured on the Imperial German model (2-year conscripted service for all men over 18, a professional General Staff, etc.) and they have a serious chip on their shoulder about crushing the Confederacy (who they still deride as "Rebs") and teaching the meddling French and British a lesson. Within the first year they have taken much of Canada (driven all the way to the Gulf of St. Lawrence and have linked up their forces from the Niagara Peninsula to Detroit, and driven deep into Alberta and Manitoba) and made deep penetrations into the Confederacy (Kentucky, Virginia, Texas, Oklahoma (which is now called Sequoya) and into their Mexican provinces of Chihuahua and Sonora). The Confederate offensives into Pennsylvania, Delaware and Martyland have been ground to a halt and driven back almost to their starting points- only the area around washington DC and the Potomac are firmly in their control. The US sneak-attacks the Sandwich Islands at Pearl Harbor and conquer them from the British, and get into a see-saw campaign with the British and Japanese Navies sortieing out of the Phillipines (no Spanish-American War, so no US presence in the Pacific beyond the West Coast before the war starts). Aside from the obvious changes, much of the combat is familiar and accurate to the period- the evolution of air-power on all sides, the new threat of submarines and commerce raiding, and eventually the horrors of trench warfare and the first uses of Chlorine Gas in Virginia.
The first book of the "Great War" trilogy also includes much with he civilians, including women moving into the factories to take the place of the men at the front and what its like for the families at home and in the conquered territories, and the growing Socialist/Communist movements. One of the biggest changes is that the Negro poulation of the South, while not officially slaves anymore, are really no better off than they've ever been- the US is a foreign country and doeasn't want them running across the border, and the Confederacy officially classifies them as a labor-class, much like the Russian Peasants. They are oppressed, abused, hated, and many of them are secretly working toward a Communist Revolution. As the first book ends in mid-1915, it appears that the Red Revolt is underway in the CSA and not far off in the US.
I know it sounds bizarre and hard to follow, but the more I think about it and get into it, the more I like it and find it "believable". I really enjoy them, and it makes you think about how much can change based on one little difference. So much of history hinges on seemingly inoccuous events, that a simple lost order not having been lost at all has completely changed the world.
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I have heard of them. Have considered reading them some day.
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I read one about the Civil War, I can't remember the name now but it's when they get the AK-47's, pretty good read, I need to find the others.
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I read one about the Civil War, I can't remember the name now but it's when they get the AK-47's, pretty good read, I need to find the others.
"Guns of the South". Similar premise, but not related. That one is about a group of South Africans who steal a time machine and go back to help the South win the war so that they can help tham keep the blacks "in their place". I actually didn't really like that one. It was way too far-fetched and seemed like the script for one of those Sci-Fi Channel movies they keep cranking out. Thankfully he didn't continue with that storyline, I think it was way too different and would have been completely unrecognizeable after much longer.
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A buddy of mine at work let me borrow a couple of them, and despite the oddness and "grain of salt" factor, I have to admit that I'm hooked on them, to the extent that I just bought the next two of the "Great War" series to finish it up and the first book of the "American Empire" series to keep it going.
For the vast majority unfamiliar with them (as I was until the first one showed up on top of my locker a few weeks ago), he's written a long and intricate series based on the "what if?" premise of the South having won the Civil War and the Confederacy surviving into the 20th Century. The series starts with the famous Special Order 191 that was found by the Union before Lee's first Invasion of Maryland not having been lost- as a result, the Confederates invasion is successful and they deal the Union a crushing defeat at a Pennsylvania battle referred to simply as "Camp Hill" (aside from a few snippets, you never get a real detailed look at what happened). This victory prevents Lincoln from ever issuing his "Emancipation Proclomation" (which he felt confident enough to release after the Union victory at Antietam IRL) and causes the British and French to extend recognition to the Confederate States of America in 1862. The story then jumps ahead to 1881 (the CSA still has slavery, James Longstreet is President and Stonewall Jackson, who never had the chance to die at Chancellorsville, is the Commanding General of the CS Army; and Lincoln is still alive and a social pariah for having gotten the US into a losing war. And That Damn Fool Custer is still alive) and what is later referred to as the "Second Mexican War", when the CSA annexes two provinces from Mexico to allow them access to the Pacific (making them a continent-spanning nation like the USA) and causing the USA and CSA to go to war again. Britian and France come to their allies aid (invading Montana from Canada, shelling and closing the Great Lakes ports, and blockading the Atlantic and Pacific coasts) and hands the USA their second crushing defeat in a generation. Afterwards, they formalise an alliance with the only European power that has been anything close to friendly with them- Imperial Germany.
The story then jumps ahead to 1914, when the US (which is formally part of the Central Powers and very closely allied with Germany after 30+ years of cooperation) and the Confederacy (part of the Quadruple-entante with France, Britain and Russia) get involved right off the bat. The confederates expect another quick and easy victory like the last two, but much has changed in the US- the US Army is now structured on the Imperial German model (2-year conscripted service for all men over 18, a professional General Staff, etc.) and they have a serious chip on their shoulder about crushing the Confederacy (who they still deride as "Rebs") and teaching the meddling French and British a lesson. Within the first year they have taken much of Canada (driven all the way to the Gulf of St. Lawrence and have linked up their forces from the Niagara Peninsula to Detroit, and driven deep into Alberta and Manitoba) and made deep penetrations into the Confederacy (Kentucky, Virginia, Texas, Oklahoma (which is now called Sequoya) and into their Mexican provinces of Chihuahua and Sonora). The Confederate offensives into Pennsylvania, Delaware and Martyland have been ground to a halt and driven back almost to their starting points- only the area around washington DC and the Potomac are firmly in their control. The US sneak-attacks the Sandwich Islands at Pearl Harbor and conquer them from the British, and get into a see-saw campaign with the British and Japanese Navies sortieing out of the Phillipines (no Spanish-American War, so no US presence in the Pacific beyond the West Coast before the war starts). Aside from the obvious changes, much of the combat is familiar and accurate to the period- the evolution of air-power on all sides, the new threat of submarines and commerce raiding, and eventually the horrors of trench warfare and the first uses of Chlorine Gas in Virginia.
The first book of the "Great War" trilogy also includes much with he civilians, including women moving into the factories to take the place of the men at the front and what its like for the families at home and in the conquered territories, and the growing Socialist/Communist movements. One of the biggest changes is that the Negro poulation of the South, while not officially slaves anymore, are really no better off than they've ever been- the US is a foreign country and doeasn't want them running across the border, and the Confederacy officially classifies them as a labor-class, much like the Russian Peasants. They are oppressed, abused, hated, and many of them are secretly working toward a Communist Revolution. As the first book ends in mid-1915, it appears that the Red Revolt is underway in the CSA and not far off in the US.
I know it sounds bizarre and hard to follow, but the more I think about it and get into it, the more I like it and find it "believable". I really enjoy them, and it makes you think about how much can change based on one little difference. So much of history hinges on seemingly inoccuous events, that a simple lost order not having been lost at all has completely changed the world.
I read them. It is Harry Turtledove specialty (alternative history). The logic he used, and the different perspective that he brings into that series is very interesting. I stopped reading it after the end of the WWI, the occupation of Canada and Ireland... oops, did I spoil that for you?. The only thing I didn't like is his writing style, but, that is just me.
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Nom you didn't spoil it, you get a basic overview of whats going to happen by reading the backs of the subsequent books. I've gotten a basic overview of the whole timeline up to 1945. Looks interesting, but increasingly weird.
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Nom you didn't spoil it, you get a basic overview of whats going to happen by reading the backs of the subsequent books. I've gotten a basic overview of the whole timeline up to 1945. Looks interesting, but increasingly weird.
That's why I stopped reading it. The logic up to 1920-1925 was sound. But, the events after are a bit too much. The events after those dates could go anywhere just like in real life (who would I thought that Britain and US would be allies in the Soviets in WWII? Or that the French Republic would colapse so quickly?) that I thought he was reaching too far.
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That's why I stopped reading it. The logic up to 1920-1925 was sound. But, the events after are a bit too much. The events after those dates could go anywhere just like in real life (who would I thought that Britain and US would be allies in the Soviets in WWII? Or that the French Republic would colapse so quickly?) that I thought he was reaching too far.
I think he was looking for a way to A) keep them going and make more money while B) having a near-apocalyptic ending to show how much worse off the world could be than it actually is.
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I think he was looking for a way to A) keep them going and make more money while B) having a near-apocalyptic ending to show how much worse off the world could be than it actually is.
And the answer is.... "A"!!!! :lol
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John Birmingham's Axis of Time trilogy I thought was a good read...basically it was the story of a multinational naval group from 2021 (based around a USN carrier task force) being thrown back in time and colliding with the US naval forces at Midway in 1942, and the complete change to WW2 that event brings.
(https://www.infinitas.com.au/ProductImages/9780330421898.jpg)
His new one Without Warning where in 2003 virtually the entire population of North America is disabled and the subsequent ramifications of the loss of the last democratic superpower is really quite interesting as well
Tronsky
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My favorite character is General Irving Morrell (rank is at the end of the series) and I love the part I highlighted below. When I read this book and hit this point I immediately thought of Hitler as being the aide to Guderian.
The cost-cutting of Upton Sinclair's Socialist administration ensured that Barrel Works was closed down in 1923. His subsequent posting to Philadelphia lasted only two years, with his outspoken criticism of America's foreign policy resulting in a transfer to occupation duty in Kamloops, British Columbia. The next seven years proved largely uneventful, with Morrell handling a sullen but acquiescent region. He received a visit in 1926 from now-Lieutenant-Colonel Guderian, along with an unnamed German sergeant who had strong anti-semitic views.
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I've read them and enjoyed them. Some of the terminology was interesting - such as "barrels" for tanks, etc. IIRC one of the new CSA fighter aircraft was called the "azzkicker" . . . :D
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I haven't read the second and third books of the Great War trilogy, are there any other foreign fighter aircraft mentioned in there? In book one the Americans start using a licensed copy of the Fokker Eindecker in Canada, I'm hoping we get to use the Albatros too. :)
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What an interesting topic and I'll look these up and give a read , sounds cool.
Nutte :devil
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Just to give you a tase of how much has changed- this is the insignia on US aircraft and vehicles (at least in WWI) instead of the cockade used in our time line.
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/turtledove/images/c/c1/Remembrance_USA_%28Turtledove%29.PNG)
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Oh, and to answer my own question (I'm now up the the start of the WWII analog), we do get to use a licensed copy of the Albatros in WWI. :rock