Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: CAP1 on February 27, 2009, 07:46:12 PM
-
hey all, got a question about flat scissors.
when i get into a position that i feel i need to do this in the ma's, i seem to always grab a bit of alt as i transition from one direction to the other, especially in the 38g. i went offline, and have been practicing this offline, and noted that even when i push the stick to a more neutral position as i roll to change directions, i still gain alt. this is also what seems to get me kilt most of the time.
i've gone to pushing the stick pretty far foward as i roll to transition, and this seems to keep me from gaining any alt.
my question.....is this right? what do you guys do? as far as stick inputs(fugitive?) for this maneuver?
fighting a spit9 offline, i could make him go out front if i did this, but without it, he stayed right on my tail.
thanks!
-
I usually always do...in the end it will help you sometimes. Some people like to chop throttle when chasing a flat scissors. So changing your alt...you can really mess with em.
-
If you roll in the counter-intuitive direction to begin your reversal (If you are turning right, and want to reverse to the left, roll to the right, going upside down on the way to your left turn), you'll get a gravity assist in your roll, and have the opposite problem of gaining altitude...
I'm not sure if that's very clear... Do you follow?
-
I usually always do...in the end it will help you sometimes. Some people like to chop throttle when chasing a flat scissors. So changing your alt...you can really mess with em.
well, when i gain alt, i normally look back and they look like they're just floating there. my pushing the stick foward as i change directions isn't intended to drop alt, but only to keep me from going up.
it seems like a fairly simple maneuver, but yet i feel as if i'm doing it wrong.
-
If you roll in the counter-intuitive direction to begin your reversal (If you are turning right, and want to reverse to the left, roll to the right, going upside down on the way to your left turn), you'll get a gravity assist in your roll, and have the opposite problem of gaining altitude...
I'm not sure if that's very clear... Do you follow?
ya, i think i do.
if someone behind me, they expect to see me roll right to change from left bank to right bank. what you're saying is to continue my left roll, and exit it in my right bank? i think?
-
ya, i think i do.
if someone behind me, they expect to see me roll right to change from left bank to right bank. what you're saying is to continue my left roll, and exit it in my right bank? i think?
Yes, pretty much. It's counter-intuitive and a good way to auger, but can get you reversed a bit quicker, possibly confuse your opponent, and at the very least solve your altitude-gaining problem.
-
what you're saying is to continue my left roll, and exit it in my right bank? i think?
Yup. While turning left, full left aileron and roll upside-down (canopy to the ground) and keep rolling until you're now in a right-hand turn. Some guys, when they don't see you "level" yourself to break right, but instead see you roll more left, sometimes pull harder left in anticipation. When you keep rolling until you're breaking right, you can really gain some angles advantage while they scramble to compensate for their bad anticipation.
I change it up and do two or three "normal" scissors reversals, then throw in the "inverted" reversal once-in-while. Always keep them guessing. Kicking the rudder in the direction of the roll really helps to get you there faster - especially useful during the non-inverted maneuver to keep you from getting the nose up and gaining alt.
-
Add full rudder in the direction of your turn and you won't have this problem. Do you have pedals? I can't believe I ever flew without them.
-
Add full rudder in the direction of your turn and you won't have this problem. Do you have pedals? I can't believe I ever flew without them.
i do. i have all ch stuff. i actually hooked up my old sidewinder twisty stick,....and cannot for hte life of me figure out how i flew with it.
i do add rudder in the direction of my turns, but i don;t go full...in a 38 at low speed, i've planted myself doing that. :D
-
Yup. While turning left, full left aileron and roll upside-down (canopy to the ground) and keep rolling until you're now in a right-hand turn. Some guys, when they don't see you "level" yourself to break right, but instead see you roll more left, sometimes pull harder left in anticipation. When you keep rolling until you're breaking right, you can really gain some angles advantage while they scramble to compensate for their bad anticipation.
I change it up and do two or three "normal" scissors reversals, then throw in the "inverted" reversal once-in-while. Always keep them guessing. Kicking the rudder in the direction of the roll really helps to get you there faster - especially useful during the non-inverted maneuver to keep you from getting the nose up and gaining alt.
This move may work for you but if you did that on me, it would afford me a pretty decent shot opportunity. As you roll to the inverted position your plane straightens out its flightpath momentarily. Also, the very instant you continued that roll, I'd know you were either going to go straight, turn right, or make a vertical move and I'd be near "wings level" to react. I'm not saying your move doesn't work, but if I saw it, you'd get a pavlovian reaction from me and perhaps a trip to the tower. :salute
-
Flat scissors are rarely 'purely' flat as in the diagrams if they were you'd be conceding at least 3 or more big profile passing shots you will gain/loss alt staying out of guns on the passover. I always view flat scissors as going the way my opponent isn't while going slower than them and staying out of guns which is not possible if I went flat.
This move may work for you but if you did that on me, it would afford me a pretty decent shot opportunity. As you roll to the inverted position your plane straightens out its flightpath momentarily. Also, the very instant you continued that roll, I'd know you were either going to go straight, turn right, or make a vertical move and I'd be near "wings level" to react. I'm not saying your move doesn't work, but if I saw it, you'd get a pavlovian reaction from me and perhaps a trip to the tower. :salute
The secret to any successful overshoot is to let your opponent see as little of the start of it as possible. In the situation above you would want to set the maneuver up by pulling the opponent into a near blackout turn while cutting throttle progressively then roll left and under into the blind spot of the left wing/cockpit of your opponents plane you should watch your opponent's speed and roll state to adjust throttle and the timing of your next scissor.
Starting maneuvers right in front of your opponent only invites them to mimic your manuveour especially if they are dead on your 6.
-
i do add rudder in the direction of my turns, but i don;t go full...in a 38 at low speed, i've planted myself doing that. :D
Oh, you didn't mention that this is when you're low and slow. For that matter, I'm not sure a flat scissors is your best option if you're low and slow in a 38 (but what do I know). I'd prefer to have more space between myself and the ground to make my flat scissor not so completely flat; I've had the best results when I execute a flat scissors a bit nose-down and throw in varying degrees of pitch.
For one thing, the 38 (even the L) does not roll well at low speed, but its low speed control seems like it could give you a chance against an aircraft that doesn't do so well at <150mph, e.g. Spitfire XVI. I've been flying the 38 a bit and I'll have more to talk about next month when it's one of our squad rides.
-
Oh, you didn't mention that this is when you're low and slow. For that matter, I'm not sure a flat scissors is your best option if you're low and slow in a 38 (but what do I know). I'd prefer to have more space between myself and the ground to make my flat scissor not so completely flat; I've had the best results when I execute a flat scissors a bit nose-down and throw in varying degrees of pitch.
For one thing, the 38 (even the L) does not roll well at low speed, but its low speed control seems like it could give you a chance against an aircraft that doesn't do so well at <150mph, e.g. Spitfire XVI. I've been flying the 38 a bit and I'll have more to talk about next month when it's one of our squad rides.
ya, i should've mentioned that...........even at 2 or 3k, i've gotten into a weird stall, that i used the ground to help me recover. :noid
i understand there needs to be some verticle in it too, but it just seems that if i go up even a little, that is when i lose fairly important parts.
i think i'm gonna hit the TA to practice this some more. i've just been trying to not log into the online arenas till i get my new machine....which should be to me next week sometime.
thanks!
-
I hear ya. I've entered some nasty spins in the 38. You get slow with flaps out, AoA gets too high, and you're spinning before you realize you did anything wrong. It gives me a lot of respect for people who can fly it well.
-
This move may work for you but if you did that on me, it would afford me a pretty decent shot opportunity. As you roll to the inverted position your plane straightens out its flightpath momentarily. Also, the very instant you continued that roll, I'd know you were either going to go straight, turn right, or make a vertical move and I'd be near "wings level" to react. I'm not saying your move doesn't work, but if I saw it, you'd get a pavlovian reaction from me and perhaps a trip to the tower. :salute
Well let's be honest here, Steve... He's talking about doing a flat scissors in a P-38. Either way he tries it, you're drooling :)
-
Well let's be honest here, Steve... He's talking about doing a flat scissors in a P-38. Either way he tries it, you're drooling :)
and sooner or later, i'll figure it out too. :D
unless of course, i learn to keep myself out of situations that require it to begin with. :rofl
-
OK, heres my ideas, take them for what is worth. I see 3 things that might be causing you trouble.
Fuel, how much fuel do you have on board when you try this? A heavy 38 is a slow 38. Its a much different animal if your fuel heavy. It can be flown, but when your slow it is even harder to get her to roll over.
Combat Trim, combat trim in the 38 can make that plane do all kinds of odd things at slow speeds, or high AoA. For most of my flying I leave CT on, but when I'm going to be throwing the plane around or doing stall moves I flick it off.
Rudder, you said you used it, but not full. CT may be giving you trouble, but I've never had any trouble giving it full rudder. Full rudder is very important to get her to roll over. Check out the BFM film posted of Rolex's recent class. In the first section they do some Split S's and he shows the difference in roll rates with and without rudder input. Its even noticeable in the pony they are flying.
So any one of the things can give you a nose up condition, even not getting your roll all the way over.
-
The secret to any successful overshoot is to let your opponent see as little of the start of it as possible. In the situation above you would want to set the maneuver up by pulling the opponent into a near blackout turn while cutting throttle progressively then roll left and under into the blind spot of the left wing/cockpit of your opponents plane you should watch your opponent's speed and roll state to adjust throttle and the timing of your next scissor.
Starting maneuvers right in front of your opponent only invites them to mimic your manuveour especially if they are dead on your 6.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the guy rolling all the way around or my reaction to it. If the guy pullls the move he mentioned on an experienced player, he's gonna give up a nice gun solution and probably be sent to the tower.
-
If the guy pullls the move he mentioned on an experienced player, he's gonna give up a nice gun solution and probably be sent to the tower.
Exactly why I wrote it the way I did...
Some guys, when they don't see you "level" yourself to break right, but instead see you roll more left, sometimes pull harder left in anticipation.
I guess I should have made it clearer...
Many of the average MA guys, when they don't see you "level" yourself to break right, but instead see you roll more left, sometimes pull harder left in anticipation.
And as was probably said earlier...it all depends on the separation between the two combatants.
-
Exactly why I wrote it the way I did...
I guess I should have made it clearer...
Many of the average MA guys, when they don't see you "level" yourself to break right, but instead see you roll more left, sometimes pull harder left in anticipation.
And as was probably said earlier...it all depends on the separation between the two combatants.
Uhh ok, I guess. This move you describe is the most basic of moves and your plane would be meat on the table. I find it hard to believe anyone but the most inexperienced player falls for this. Once you roll past 90 degrees, your rate of turn diminishes accordingly and you would be easy to get guns on. Once you are flat(inverted) you are not turning at all and you are cherry. Have you had success with this? If so, maybe I'm wrong.. could you post some films?
-
I'm not sure what this has to do with the guy rolling all the way around or my reaction to it. If the guy pullls the move he mentioned on an experienced player, he's gonna give up a nice gun solution and probably be sent to the tower.
It has nothing to do with you I didn't mention your name in it. I was agreeing with you and offering the guy some advice on how to pull the move hes talking about without being so obvious.
-
It has nothing to do with you I didn't mention your name in it. I was agreeing with you and offering the guy some advice on how to pull the move hes talking about without being so obvious.
I misunderstood, I apologize.
-
I misunderstood, I apologize.
no probs m8 :)
-
A diagram might help you explain yourself more clearly Steve. I understand what you are saying but I don't think they do.
-
A diagram might help you explain yourself more clearly Steve. I understand what you are saying but I don't think they do.
I lack the talent to create a diagram. Fortunately, someone tried that on me more than once in the same fight today. Although my gunnery was terrible, you can see how I gain angles each time..
1 minute film:
http://www.mediafire.com/?1uunj01xuio (http://www.mediafire.com/?1uunj01xuio)
-
This reaction in flat scissors is a classic example of engine tork at work.
Consider a flat level flight path in a plane with anti-clockwise rotating prop (Torque is to the left). Now at full throttle if you break turn ( NOT bank turn) to the left the NOSE will drop in the turn. If you break turn right the nose will climb. The plane will do this naturally unless you counteract this tendacncy with rudder and aileron input. Usually it is heavy rudder input or "stomping on the rudder".
Top rudder means if you are in a perfectly flat turn to the left the RIGHT side of your tail will be facing to the sky. So stomp right rudder to pull the nose to the right which is actully UP.
Now you break back to the right and reverse the rudder stomp on right rudder (which is now the bottom side).
This will keep you in a level flat turn in both directions....HOWEVER because you are using rudder it will also slow you down considerably. This is not an energy conserving maneuver.
I must comment that this is a very radicle maneuver used to create an overshot gun solution at close range. If you are going to do a more controlled scissor then do the second method below.
But if you have a bandit 600 out you must do whatever it takes to create an overshoot or die.
The second choice is to use the torque to your advantage.
Since the nose drops left and rises to the right we can use this to manipulate the energy curve to our advantage.
On left flat turns utilize this to gain A LITTLE energy. Use this energy on the right turn when the nose goes up. So you are actually maintaining a constant energy state. You climb up and over to the right. You dive and pull up on the left.
The key to this is low side wing stalling. You want to stall the down wing by pulling hard and "snapping" the plane over without using any rudder. If you use the rudder your doing option number one describe above.
So when we turn left we know the nose will go down. We break left and "pull back and roll hard" to stall the left wing. Snap to left and release. Now the same to the right. We are only use stalling a wing to turn....NO RUDDER. Now we are weaving with an up and down path. Almost very shallow yo yo's in the turns but NOT verticle. We just want to use the torqe to help snap the plane and make the nose go up and down with torque.
This is more useful when you have a higher faster diving bandit coming to your six. You can begin this type of scissor early because you appear as an easy kill. But you are actually keeping your energy. If you can draw him in inside d800 you can reverse into a gun solution and possible catch them if they go verticle. If they extend off in a banking turn go the other way and re merge.
Agent360
-
I lack the talent to create a diagram. Fortunately, someone tried that on me more than once in the same fight today. Although my gunnery was terrible, you can see how I gain angles each time..
1 minute film:
http://www.mediafire.com/?1uunj01xuio (http://www.mediafire.com/?1uunj01xuio)
steve......
thanks for posting that. it actually kind of made a point i was trying to get at. your first 2 shots at the typ were when he went up. he just got lucky that you missed. i think those 2 times are where you gained the most angles on him. it was a nice shot at the end there, but i'm not sure that the complete roll he did allowed you to get that shot.
thanks dude......