Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: juzz on January 17, 2000, 07:36:00 PM
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Can someone explain how the Bf109G-6 can climb far better than the G-2, when they share the same engine? AND - how do the G-6 and G-2 climb better than the more powerful G-10...?
Those nose bumps must be part of the anti-gravity device... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Probably because it is modeled with all the gadgets that Waffels have been squeaking and whining about....
Got any timing on that thing ? Climb to 20k maybe ?
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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Watch fd-ski hit the roof (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Climb to 20k; ClimbSpeed 150mph, 100% power, 100% fuel.
Bf109F-4: 6'22"
Bf109G-10: 6'15"
Bf109G-2: 6'05"
drum roll please...
Bf109G-6 5'21" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Yawn, I am at work and they are all testing new 109s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Still, I had 5 minutes before work to fly 3 new 109s.
Of all 4 versions, G-6 made the greatest impression. If everything is corrcetly modeled, that's a plane to count on.
Pyro, how about telling us what engines particular 109 versions use in AH. What power boost devices do they have ? Please...
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Hehehe. Yeah, they's all flying F-4's too, by the look of the score page...
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Umrust Motor of some sort.
But still, seems no weight/torque penalty.
Compared to G-10, it felt like...hmmm...I hate to say it....Spit.
Still, only 2 minutes in it.
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Hristo, what do you mean by "Umrust motor"?
I would have assumed the G-6 has the usual DB605AM; but at 100% throttle it is much faster climbing than the G-2(DB605A), when they should both be producing identical power(1475hp?). What's even more confusing is that at 100%, the G-10(DB605D) climbs slower than the G-6(and the G-2!), but if the G-6 and G-10 climb with WEP(MW50) on they produce practically identical climbrates.
Obviously there's still a little work to be done on the 109 FM's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The version for C3 fuel was available for some versions of 109G, right ? Forgot the designation suffix tho.
Our G-10 uses B4 fuel, AFAIK.
As much as it should be fun to fly such an awesome climber as AH G-6, it should be corrected if it is wrong.
But, OTOH, there were so many different modifications that only Pyro can answer questions about our G-6.
Maybe it is the G-10 that needs tweaking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It pays big penalty in weight/torque with no big advantage in climb compared to Spit IX, for example.
Interesting tho...
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 01-18-2000).]
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Also, maybe it is a combo with both MW 50 and GM 1. Anyone ?
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I would have assumed the G-6 has the usual DB605AM; but at
100% throttle it is much faster climbing than the G-2(DB605A),
when they should both be producing identical power(1475hp?)
Bingo! We have a winner! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The G6 at 100% is using 1475 hp and with WEP, is using MW50 1800 hp (4800 fpm climb rate). The G2, because it has to use WEP and doesn't have MW50, is putting out 13xx hp with 100% and 1475 with WEP! The Fw is modelled the same way! (15xx with 100% and 1700 with WEP).
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I think then we need two WEP buttons. One for "limited overpower", like most planes have, and another for "goodies" like methanol/water injection, like some of the German planes have. Unlike the P-47's and F4U's methanol WEP, I think you could use MW50 at any power setting, as it wasn't "hardwired" into the last part of the throttle travel like on the American planes?
If you are correct wells, then can you explain why the G-2 isn't faster on WEP than the G-6 at 100% (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hristo; AFAIK only the Ta152 had both GM-1 and MW50 fitted at the same time. The Bf109 had a "choice" of either MW50 or GM-1, but never both at once. I would like to have that choice available with AH's Bf109's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Understood.
But how about G-10 then ? Underpowered ?
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At 100% power, the G-10 is certainly underpowered. With the MW50 on it probably is still slightly underpowered, it should have an extra 200hp over the G-6 that I imagine should show up in climbrate, unless the G-10 was also heavier?
I think the G-6 bleeds E really quickly though; I had a Spit on my tail that I could easily dive away from, but whenever I climbed(gently, not much G's) again to go vertical he caught up in a very short time. I guess he was very light on fuel, and maybe out of cannons too, because he pinged me twice for no damage, but then another Knight shot him down anyway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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If G10 is alot more clumsy than G6 and climbs slower.. whats the point for that new version? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Isn't G10 quite much like K4, clumsy but fast and rocket climber?
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Here's what W. Green says:
G-2, normal loaded weight 6834 lb, DB 605A 1475 hp at take off
G-6, normal loaded weight 6940 lb, DB 605AM 1475 hp for take off (no MW 50)
G-6, normal loaded weight 6940 lb, DB 605AM 1800 hp for take off (with MW 50)
G-10, normal loaded weight ???, DB 605D 1850 hp for take off (B4, with MW 50)
G-10, normal loaded weight ???, DB 605DB 1800 hp for take off (C3, no MW 50)
G-10, normal loaded weight ???, DB 605DC 2000 hp for take off (C3, with MW 50)
K-4, loaded weight (clean) 6834 lb, DB 605ASCM 2000 hp for take off (probably with MW 50)
Normal loaded weight of G-10 should be very close to G-6 figure, I believe.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 01-18-2000).]
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Ooops, my bad. It's a bug that will be fixed in the next version. The AH G-6 has a 605A, same as the G-2.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
"The side with the fanciest uniforms loses."
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ok , i made some climb tests, too. I wrote down for every 1000ft altitude the corresponding climbspeed (read it from the vsi).
Itīs really interesting to see the trend of the climbspeed. It doesnīt make sense to measure the time to 20K, because climbspeed varies a lot.
You can describe the trend of the climbspeed with certain points. Think yourself a linear interpolation between them.
The third number is how much ft/min climb a aircraft will lose (average) with every 1000ft more altitude
(all with 100%fuel, 100%, no wep, 1*20mm)
autospeed 160
109F
0ft......3500ft/min
4000ft...3500ft/min....0
14000ft..3250ft/min....-25
18000ft..3250ft/min....0
25000ft..2350ft/min....-128
28000ft..1500ft/min....-283
(note: very interesting imo that the F has a almost constant climb performance up to 18000ft)
109G2
0ft......3400ft/min
6000ft...3750ft/min....+58
20000ft..2675ft/min....-77
28000ft..1425ft/min....-156
(note: max. climbrate in 6000ft. critical altitude in 20000ft)
109G6
0ft*.....4000ft/min
6000ft*..4350ft/min....+58
21000ft..3200ft/min....-77
27000ft..2250ft/min....-158
(same as 109G2, but in every altitude about 650ft/min more climb. The * values are estimated with the help of the G2-values, cause the vsi-range is only up to 4000ft/min. )
109G10
0ft......3550ft/min
4000ft...3750ft/min....+50
7000ft...3550ft/min....-66
11000ft..3400ft/min....-37
23000ft..2750ft/min....-54
26000ft..2300ft/min....-150
(note: loses between 6000-23000ft not as much climb performance than the g2 and g6)
Pyro, our 109G10 has a DB605AS, right? Itīs the only possible explanation for the low critical altitude of the G10.
What a pity. The engine is like in a porsche the heart of the machine. I think a G6 with a 605A will perform similar like a G2. Where will be the difference? Armment, external load, of course. But what else?
I really would like to see this:
109G2 with DB605A
109G6 with DB605AM or even ASM
109G10 with DB605D (with mw50 OR gm1! - crtical altitude without mw50 or gm1 28000ft, with gm1 33000ft)
I think this would be a great representation of the G-series!!
niklas
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The G-10 is with the 605D. Here's a comparison chart between the G-6 and G-10 in AH. Note, the G-6 does have a bug in it and is over-performing in this version.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/109climb.gif)
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
"The side with the fanciest uniforms loses."
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nevermind
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 01-18-2000).]
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thx pyro
I think i came with my measurment to the same results.
Of course, exact numbers are a bit different. I only had the vsi and my eyes, till 20000ft a lot of fuel was already burned away, the influence of the autopilot etc.
Please donīt understand me wrong. I donīt say the G10 climbs some 100ft/min to slow in xxx ft, iīm just wondering myself why the climbperformance drops so much faster already at 23000ft. Shouldnīt this happen not below ~28000ft?? I mean, climbperformance drops quicker over 23000ft because engine power drops quicker, right?
I always thought that the late G-models ( and the K of course) were high altitude fighter
niklas
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Pyro - could you clarify whether WEP in AH designates GM1 or MW50 for 190's and 109s please ?
<snickering in the corner... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) bug... heheheh....>
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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Niklas,
I have the G-10 peaking out on top speed at climb and combat power at about 26000 feet. At climb speed, performance drops out earlier than at top speed. I know this is less than you have on your K-4 charts, but as usual there is conflicting data on this and I had more evidence pointing the other way.
Fd-ski, the only 109 in AH with MW50 is the G-10.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
"The side with the fanciest uniforms loses."
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thx pyro for this statement.
You know, i donīt have a problem with 23/26000ft in the main, because 99% of the action takes place below 20000ft.
But it will become important in a Scenario
niklas
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I really would like to see this:
109G2 with DB605A
109G6 with DB605AM or even ASM
109G10 with DB605D (with mw50 OR gm1! - crtical altitude without mw50 or gm1 28000ft, with gm1 33000ft)
So if I understand correctly, what we actually have is:
Bf109G-2 with DB605A (13??hp at 100%, 1475hp at WEP)
Bf109G-6 with DB605A (incorrectly giving 1475hp at 100%, and ????hp with WEP)
Bf109G-10 with DB605D (13??hp at 100%, ~1800hp with MW50 WEP)
1. Why doesn't the G-6 have MW50? I thought that was one of the main "features" of that model? So it seems graphically, it's a late G-6 with the "Erla Haube" and bigger tail, but the engine is a normal DB605A, not DB605AM?
2. We need two WEP buttons. Firstly because the G-10's takeoff and emergency power is unavailable without using MW50 as well, and secondly because(I think?) the MW50 could be used at any power setting.
3. We want GM-1 too! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
How does the F-4 maintain it's climbrate up to 18k? The DB601E must have been some engine to be able to do that? WarBirds' F-4 is the same, maintaining a vertical speed off the dial until about 20k...
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Oh look a chart! Great. I had the WB charts for the longest time until I lost all my WB stuff with my HD. Hopefully there're more charts on the way.
//fats
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niklas & Pyro,
Thanks for the info. I've always had a soft spot for the dreaded messer.
If I may ask a question, what were the advantages & disadvantages of:
[list=1]
- GM1?
- MW50?
[/list=a]
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leonid, aka grisha
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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1.GM-1 = Nitrous Oxide(N20)
Pro: Inhaling it can cause euphoric feelings. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Con: Inhaling too much will render you unconscious. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
2.MW 50 = Methanol/Water(CH3OH) mixed in 1:1 ratio.
Pro: Drinking it will get you quite drunk. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Con: Drinking too much will poison and kill you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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juzz,
You bum, I'm still waiting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
janneh,
What you smiling about? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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leonid, aka grisha
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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leonid, both methods increased the performance of a 109 in different ways:
MW50: The Pilot could open by hand a valve, that let the liquid pour out into the air. This made the 109 lighter, and performance increased.
Disadvantage: The diameter of the valve was small, thus it took a long time until the mw-50 tank was empty.
Advantage: Small amounts of mw50 could be used for the windscreen-wiper
GM1: In 109 with a pressure-cabin, the pilot could activate gm1. The cooled liquid poured into the pilotcabin, evaporated there and replaced the "normal" air.
Because N02 is lighter than air, you have now like in a Zeppelin a great lift effekt, and climb performance increased dramtically!
Advantage: very effective
Disadvantage: see juzz postings. Usually the pilots had to wear gasmasks all the time.
niklas
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Damn, he's funnier than me by far (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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i know i know !!!
MW 50 gave Waffels an excuse for getting shot down in ANY sim below 20k !!!
GM 1 gave waffels an excuse for getting shot down in ANY sim above 20k !!!
If those were modeled properly nobody would have ever killed a 109 or 190 !!!
<finger> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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LOL!
niklas, when I find you I will keeeeeeeeeell you!!!!!!
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leonid, aka grisha
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Heh heh fd ski (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Considering the fact that you might eventually face adversaries with more accurate performance than in Warbirds, you sound pretty calm.
Or do you plan to stay in Warbirds until it eventually sinks?
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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) (Warbirds)
If you ever get across the sea to England,
Then maybe at the closing of the day
The bars will all be serving German lager
Which means we won the war - hip hip hooray!
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4800 fpm. No complaints here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Jochen - i have 2 Mac guys in my squadron - and we don't leave anyone behind - ever.
Looks like it will be WWIIOnline for us, although i would have no problem moving here if there was a mac version ...
As for "faceing adversaries with more accurate performance" i'm not worried at all.
If that means that i have to climb 200 extra feet to shoot you dweebs in the bellybutton on top of your "expert noseover" manouvers - i'm cool with that.
<evil grin>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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LOL, funny guys here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
But seriously, could someone answer leonids question, I'm interested too as I don't know anything about these equipments, thx !
ps. Any good url ?
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Janneh; Leonids question:
janneh,
What you smiling about? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
I believe you were smiling because you had just flown your new Bf109F-4...
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I ment:
"If I may ask a question, what were the advantages & disadvantages of:
GM1?
MW50?"
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GM1?
This actually boosts engine performance by introducing copious amounts of oxygen into the combusition chamber. Can also help engines 'breathe' at high alts.
Works on all types of engines (normal vs. supercharged)
Not sure of the power boost, but it can be as high as 50% in today's engines.
MW50?"
This essentially allows the engine to run cooler under circumstances that normally would severely overheat it. This was used in conjuction with turning up the boost from the super/turbochargers.
Normally if you increase the amount of boost, the cylinders overheat, getting so hot they ignite the gas without the spark plug. This can destroy a motor in a matter of seconds.
By throwing in a fine spray of MW50, you essentially cool the cylinders from the inside.
So as long as you keep spraying this stuff the motor stays cool enough not to start 'falling apart'
Disadvantage: Only works on motors with superchargers.
Get it? Got it? Good!
~Lemur