Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: leonid on June 03, 2000, 07:48:00 AM
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What plane that hasn't been introduced to AH would you want to have RCAF marking? Spit XIV? Tempest? Hurri?
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I have a funny feeling that the Lancaster will have Canuck markings.
But i would settle for a late model Seafire with Canadian markings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) http://www.navalmuseum.ab.ca/seafire.html (http://www.navalmuseum.ab.ca/seafire.html) The Seafire MK XV Serial FZ 425
This plane is at my hometown hmm i must get off my duff and go see it.
Here is a mean beasty below for late model aircraft
Type: Seafire F Mk. 47
Function: fighter
Year: 1947 Crew: 1 Engines: 1 * 2350hp R.R. Griffon 88
Wing Span: 11.25m Length: 10.46m Height: 3.88m Wing Area: 22.63m2
Empty Weight: 3938kg Max.Weight: 5742kg
Speed: 727km/h Ceiling: 13135m Range: 1515km
Armament: 4*g20mm 3*b227kg
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IMHO the plane which absolutly HAS to have RCAF markings would be a Mosquito.
Other than that nothing else is really as important except the Halifax. BTW baddawg the odds of a lancaster in RCAF paint is astronomical. All the most famous and active lancasters were British planes. Now the odds of a handley page Halifax in RCAF.. what else would you paint it?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Spit Vb.
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
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Avro Arrow
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Funked..
your lots of things.
But your not a Canadian.
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
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Hey I watched hockey last week, doesn't that count?
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As a one time member of No. 401 "Rams" Sqn in Warbirds, can I be a honorary Canadian? Look, I can talk the talk - eh? eh? eh? claim a 109, eh? Seriously, even though I am not a Canadian, I would love to see Screwball's Spitfire MkV from Malta. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (you know the ace I am talking about)
...or a 401 Sqn Mk14 that shot down the first ME262.
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S/L rf-a,
No. 303 (Polish) Sqn
Northolt Wing
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Maybe when we get a Spit Vc trop we will get a Buerling spit. But there are some pretty desert cam ones so the blue one might put people off.
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
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I flew as beurling for 4 years in aw3. A mk v with call sign tz tan and brown. Btw that was a mk vc with 4 cannon. 2 were removed. Kh -b was his mk 9 in 403 30 kill on it. He was the best shot in the raf. If you read about him in malta you find he killed faster and in fewer missions than anyone in the allied camp. Im sure his k/mission would rank with most of the german greats. He is one of the most misunderstood aces in the raf mostly due to a hatchet job done in the book Buzz <the buzz beurling story> This was a guy who spent most of his time in his life trying to improve himself as a fighter pilot and did so with great success. RCAF marking on him would be great. If any of you want to read a good story about a allied ace check this guy out his tactics and gunnery ideas can help anyone in this game.
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Oh I think they understood him alright.
The one I want is UF S (br301)a spit Vc with normal med paint but with the top colours painted over two tones of blue(med blue and a USN blue I think.) He scored his 13th kill in it
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1 more thing there's a painting of him killing gelli at malta in a blue plane this is a artist's mistake. There were pru blue spits at malta but not with him flying those. Guys like warburton flew those. Ive read and checked lw records in my books on the days he encountered fights Beurling could of shot down 35 kill in total not the 31 1/3 hes often credited with. The 1/3 kill was one where he blew up a bomber after 2 attacks by his squadies in 249. He could of taken this kill too but gave 1/3 to his squadies.
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Oh come now eye, he was canadian and I adore him.. but doing a hatchet job on him would be REAL hard. The guy was.. disturbed. I have a copy of his diaries and lemme just say he wasn't real normal.
BTW the odds of him "giving" a kill away would me microscopic. There was almost never anyone else around when he engaged. He has the record for the most lost wingmen in malta, for almost every 3rd sortie he flew his wingman was shot down because he just left the guy behind. It was irresponsible stuff like that that was why the Brit's didn't keep him and the yanks never gave him a shot.
My favorite anecdote has to be of how he got the name "screwball". He loved to call anything he despised a "screwball". one day in malta a pilot watched him throw a piece of rotten meat on the floor, wait several minutes until it was thick with flies then stomp on it. Then loudly exclaim "whoopee screwballs".
A great pilot, I think they should have just gave him a P51 and no wingman and asked him to be home by dinner every day. God only knows what he would have done!
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Funny you should say that Vermillion, I think he actually came up with a plan to fly small groups of P-51's around trying to stir trouble over Europe late in the war, but they wouldn't let him do it.
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Ya I think they understood him fine. But in an orginization where kills = rank he did not have the self esteem to take the rank.
Eveyone was loosing wingmen in Malta, but they did not hold it against them. His early experiance in the RAF taught him that the guy at the back of the formation is not that important.
I am just glad he was not captured. He was an awful good pilot and I dont think he was too picky where he flew.
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
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If you have copies of his diaries i would be greatly interested in seeing them. Simply that book was terrible. You can find good portrayals of him in j johnsons biography. A local guy who lives 2 miles from me j billings wrote a book called A naive in knights in spitfires. Beurling was a french canadian. You know they were 2nd class at that time? They were treated that way. If he had hostility to some in the rcaf it was because of this. Simply the rcaf in the early years of ww2 was a class based organization. This was not even covered it the book Buzz <The Buzz beurling story>. Nor was the fact given as to why he was a loner. Partly because he broke formation but more in my opinion because he did not drink and considered it a poison. Not to drink after a fight in my opinion was more of a sin to those he flew with than any other thing. It made them feel weak. As far as loseing wing man with odds of 8 to 1 you would lose some too. You think fighting jg 77 / jg 26 and the pik a's was easy.? The italins though easier were there to kill him too. If you read about him at malta you find when he was finaly shot down loseing part of his foot it was going to the help of his wing man. In fact early in his stay his co took him aside and made it clear you fight in pairs. He did with great results. Beurling was a prima dona after his tour of canada i will give you that. But he was saddled with a bad co in the form of wing comander hugh godefroy a 7 kill ace who was obviously afraid of loseing control of his power. Beurling never had a prob with mcnair or jonson. but when a co of lesser ablity came they were at odds. If you read that book you soon see almost all of the people who were talked to were from 403 or 401 squads rcaf. Why not from 249 because many were dead thats why. Not from being his wingman either. Beurling had friends and respect in the raf not the rcaf. He was canada's best by far. He was misunderstood. In fact so bad its not funny he was a brave canadian a excellent marksmen a professional in every way. If he made mistakes in his life it was this 1 to tell off the commanding general of the rcaf 2 to resist promotion he could of had his own wing and thus avoided his probs with godefroy 3 he died in 48, with the years if he lived the bad blood between himself and the rcaf may have gone away. Time heals all wounds. This post just touches the surface Beurling was a hero and a anti hero at the same time. One of the few wartime aces who were complex and not hidden by a facade of wartime propoganda.
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LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) i just read my post can you tell i spent some time studying the guy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) <S> to you all nice to see im not the only one who know about him.
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Good post.
Mcnair hated him too. but I bet you have alot of valid points there. I wouldnt count JEJ as one of his supporters either. Too a certain extent history is written by the survivors.
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CO
Sturm Crows
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Id have to disagee on onn either of them hateing him ive never seen anything by either that said that.
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Sorrow where you get a copy of his diary? I have seen pictures of his black book with shooting angles etc but never a diary. I would love to know where so i could get a copy of them myself.
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Whew, alot you wrote their eye, I have to say some punctuation would help me read it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
His diary is available by writing his family. They still live in the same city in Quebec, there is also a version available to the public via the war archives. I reccomend searching the Canadian war archives for a version first. The difference between the two are very slight.
First: wingmen.. Sorry to pop your bubble. He was not fighting 8 to 1 and he wasn't up against germans either at malta. His malta kills were mostly italian. He lost wingmen because he would go haring off like an bellybutton after easy kills or engage on suicidal manuevers then duck out, leaving his wingman unprotected. This BTW is not the way to make friends... After a short period of time they stuck him in a vic with another pair of fighters and ignored him after they engaged.
He was shot down, losing part of his foot, not helping a wingman but rather by engaging a group of italian fighters below a bomber wing. After shooting one down he was forced to break off and run when several higher fighters engaged him. Over the water his plane had a wing damaged and went into a spin. There was no wingman in the vicinity, they weren't giving him one anymore by that time!
As for JEJ's opinion of him, it's clearly stated in his book Wing leader. JeJ thought he was an uncontrollable twit. Mostly after having him use a tiger moth to buzz the field for hours.
Hugh Godfrey was hardly incompetent. He was a great pilot and excellent leader. He just had no patience with a fool who couldn't stay where he was supposed to be and refused to work as a team player. Add in the fact Buerling's infamous 190 kill embarassed him in the middle of a room of pilots and well....
(This was BTW after Buerling managed to seperate from a flight, kill a 190 and return without being noticed. He then reported it as an afterthought. Godfrey thought he was a liar and had the guncam film played. Which clearly showed him killing a 190)
And finally, buerling did duck responsibility like crazy. No-one knows really why he eveded promotions, except that he was terribly insecure. He really didn't feel he deserved the recognition he got. As for that bit about the rcaf hating him? a defenite YES! but it wasn't because he was french canadian or a non-drinker. It was because he gave them his honest (and brutal) opinion of them. This is a surefire way of getting people to mislike you!
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Excellent post. Now my rebutal (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) A the reason that he lost wingman was this the spiral climb out. On a scramble few could match him he would get above the germans up sun if possible.Why could they not match him? Because he took the time to know the people who did his guns And the condition of the plane he was flying. Once he was good he got first pick and knew which plane would get him highest the fastest. While others goofed off drinking or relaxing he was working on his next mission. A true professional. This is what i admire most about him. I feel he learned this early in the airport he haunted as kid and as a bush pilot.His tactics were this attack out of the sun with as much alt and speed as possible .Line up 2 or more and shoot as close as possible. Often he would yes come up under in a blind spot but he would never fight at a disadvantage in alt if possible. Often because raids were so large his ammo would be gone in one or two passes at most. Then dive to malta's ack which was the best in the world at the time equal to any in this game.Beurling not being loved i agree with you on. You ever read the official history of the RCAF? It simply lists his kills on the days he got them at malta. But thats in itself amazing. As far as italians they were good and simply put fighting german and italians would be tougher than fighting any allied flyiers. Rember this was mid 42 till october. Not 44 and 45 when much of the best in the luftwaffe were gone. As far a Godefroy i must admit he was not a bad commander you are right.Fighter pilots are competitive by nature. It was his professional jealousy and fear of loseing control of his wing that he blew it in my opinion. The fight you mentioned was a classic example of how bad 403 was at that time. For the best ace in the RCAF to be put in tail end charlie is in my opinion a mistake. A arogant mistake at that. I laugh every time ive read that he was able to do that get into a fight, kill a 190 and get back into position with out one guy seeing him. I know how poor that squad was just by the fact he was able to do that. Im not saying all Canadians at that time stunk but for him to pull that off shows how much that squad needed him at that time. Beurling blew it with promotions i agree he could of had his own wing i bet if he would of played it different. You know why he didnt want to lead men in battle? His deep religious background. Today we would say he was raised in a cult. He simply did not want to order others to kill it was a sin if he was going to break gods commandments he would only do it himself. Thinking this way hurt those who needed hishelp in 403 and 412. You do know he was gunnery officer at a otu and helped many improve the skills that would keep them alive? Ive read many times that he would talk shop and help anyone who asked. You think that did not save lives? The simple fact is this he was a loner. If it was forced upon himself or self induced is debateable. Was he loved certainly not. Was he a prima donna after his warbond/sex tour? Certainly. Was he the best Canadian? Mcleod was close but everything ive ever read said he was special a cut above. Ask youself this who in the commonwealth forces was better? Gray maybe jj no way, Sailor Malan? Maybe. As a pure fighter pilot who's better? P.S. I apologize for the poor speling and grammer. Some times my dyslexia gets the best of me. Thanks for the tip on the diary i will try to get a copy of one. Btw one last thing what are you doing with one? You write that book? BUZZ
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We italians know quite well Screwball and I have red some good books about him.
Some reports are quite sickening, indeed. I mean the way he talked about his kills and victims. But I understand that Malta has been one of the toughest theatres of air-war.
He was a tuff guy and an outstanding ace for sure.
Italian pilots' work was indeed tuff. They were good pilots but had little or no fight-training. They had very bad radios and no radar control. They flew Macchi C.200 (875hp), C.202 and Reggiane 2001, both engined with 1,150hp DB601. All had light armament. Everytime I read something about it I feel sick.
I like very much this book:
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1550286250.01.MZZZZZZZ.gif)
and the two from C.Shores:
Malta: The Spitfire Year, 1942
Malta: The Hurricanes Years, 1940-41
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 06-13-2000).]
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Gatt Beurling had nitemares the rest of his life about blowing off the head of a italian ace. He talked a good game in public,acted the cold hearted killer. In private he would wake from his sleep screaming seeing the blood pumping out of the neck and streaming down the side of the plane. I have often wondered if he suffered from post tramatic stress disorder. From the stories from his family sure sounded as if he did.Btw thanks for the tip on the book im going to check it out ive never seen it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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EYE, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Here is something from him you probably know:
"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run."
Sadly, he was right. We lost tons of pilots over Malta due to bad tactics. <S> to our pilots and RAF foes.
In AH arenas we can fly our Macchis (we 4°Stormo I mean) the right way, tho (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Anyway, take a look here:
http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/beurling.htm (http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/beurling.htm)
(http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/buerlingngelli.jpg)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 06-13-2000).]
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While were on the subject, does anyone know what kind of victory markings were used by the RAF for Italian kills?
Here's what I'm using now for 308 Sqn:
(http://www.raf303.org/308/pilots/zfu.jpg)
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Victory markings on italians fighters were very rare. They were painted on rudder fin.
Victories were awarded to the whole squad insted of individuals.
I'll try to scan and post some rare examples of markings painted on aces' mounts.
<S> Funked!
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If it wasn't for RUSH, the United States would have nuked Canada. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Well, then again, its just cold and boring there, so we might have figured that into everything. (Cept Vancouver, I get good Canadian fur there everytime!)
THe UNITED STATES saved everyones bellybutton in WWII, but if you need a few wacky paintjobs to make ya feel better...go ahead. Canada was hardly a force, kindalike the Italians.
It's not very historically balanced giving you paint jobs before Hellcats and such, as the asswhippin was done by the the Yanks. Therefore we deserve new stuff first.
Love and Peace,
Creamo
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Canada, like France, Australia, New Zealand, Poland ... and yes even Italy WERE forces.
It is more than enuff to have them represented in a modern and open minded flight sim (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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He is joking isn't he? I mean, nobody can be THAT thick, can they?
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Well those dead hookers in Vancouver have been explained anyway.
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Nashwan can you kindly explain your post?
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Well we might of needed help lol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) but ill put Beurling up against bong/mcguire etc. I know Canada had a better ace. We also flew better planes. Stick that in you pipe and smoke it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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One more thing whos got the top aces in ah? I bet if we canadians are not number one were two at the very worst! Well thats another topic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Take it easy Eye. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Don't let the "Zebco 202" post get ya.
I guess knowing the FDB's are full of Canadians might help the inside joke.
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Funked, to answer your question:
Most allied pilots represented Italian kills on their aircraft as little Italian AF insignia. Basically, what you see on the wing of that Italian fighter GATT put in his post is what you would put on your spitfire. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Italian flags were never used to represent victories over Italian fighters.
...and to get back on topic, "Buzz" had quite a lot of Italian kills, yet he only put crosses on his Spitfire - Interesting sidenote. Also, a very good book about the fighting over Malta is "Malta: The Spitfire Year 1942".
Cheers,
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S/L rf-a
No. 303 (Polish) Sqn
"Northolt Wing"
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Gatt I'm sorry I should have made it clear I was refering to Creamo's post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Aw im taking it easy <S> to all good posts was fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Thanks RF-A. That symbol is kind hard to fit in a 6 x 6 bitmap. I'm sticking with the Italian flag heheeh.
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Funked, you should use one of these (but at 6x6 they are unreadable indeed):
(http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8780/reference/italy/fasces.gif)
(http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8780/reference/italy/fasces.jpg)
Anyway, if you leave the italian flags on your Spitfire it seems you have shot down 3 Alitalia Boeing 747 liners (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 06-14-2000).]
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HERE YOU GO FUNKED:
(http://www.raf303.org/jacek/italian.jpg)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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S/L rf-a,
No. 303 (Polish) Sqn
"Northolt Wing"
(http://www.raf303.org/jacek/RF-AMkV.jpg)
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EYE,
Some more things: First of all you have his method dead right- only attack from advantage and make every shot count. Oh, and only attack the best target as well, even if that is the one straggling off from the others!
His dislike of command had nothing to do with religion either, lump that in with the drinking or the french canadian theme. Bollocks. In reality he was an incredibly emotionally insecure person. That was WHY he was a loner, he couldn't understand or get along with people. That and he probably had a suspicion they were promoting him to get him out of a cockpit.
And yes- he inspected his guns every time he flew... he was always suspicous of the gunnery officers tampering with them or making mistakes loading them.
As for his 190 trick- he was not tail end charlie, they gave him a wingman when he flew in england. He left his wingman to kill that plane. This also BTW NO indication of the skill of the pilots in that squadron. They were trained and skilled in flying as a team. They did VERY well at this and for themselves in 1 on 1's too. Also For the record.. sailor was 2x the pilot buerling was, he was good at lone wolf AND team fighting. And knew the place to do both.
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Thanks for the markings guys. It looks like I will have to scale up the plane images in order to have a legible Italian kill markings. the price one pays for historical accuracy!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-14-2000).]
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I dont know. Lot of those guys never flew in a situation anything like malta. To say Malan was twice the pilot beurling was...Dont think so.
You are pretty hard on him I think. He had been given good reason not to trust wingmen and flight leaders in his first experiances on the channel coast. After you have had that happen you tend to rely on yourself.
Canada and the western allies had the luzury of not needing killing machines like Buzz. Hey they buz the mess in a tiger moth..cant have that. The US let its top P38 pilots cruise the solomons looking for a few more kills. The canadians could not think what to do with buzz. Better a disgraced war hero then a dead one I guess.
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Godefroy was jumped and formations he was in were slaughtered early in his carrier. Only some good flying got him home. 403 was in a extreme state of flux at the time buzz was sent there. 412 was in even worse shape. This lead to a extreme focus on formation flying on his part. Also it lead to unimaginative timid formations. This was also the case of raf squads too at that time. Godefroy was pissed at Beurling because he fliped over regularly and searched below. Know why? because a less talentied pilot might do it. lol what a joke! Beurlings tactics at malta would not work over europe but his eyesight would so would his good shooting and they did. Flying as part of timid formations that did not want to engage he still got two . You know what else he rarly saw a german fighter at that time. He still got two. The germans were worrying about the us guys further inland. You say nothing about a guy who puts the best guy in the raf/rcaf in the tail end charlie position ? What a joke. Godefroy did that simply to save his own hide. Unlike Beurling who engaged the enemy he was scared to death. He thought it would be better to sacrafice the best to save his own or any of the other piss poor fliers butts first. What a joke! The guy disliked him saw him as a threat to his power and tried to kill him. Great leader eh? Rember those who survive write the history or rewrite it. Godefroy and others have had over 50 years to say they were in the right. To smear him. The focus is always on he lost wingman what a joke. I bet if you counted the number of missions at malta countering formations of 8 to 1 you would see he lost 3 or 4 vs 27kills 9 probable kills 3 dammaged. Thats great in my book. How many did he save from the germans one or two times before they died? Why did the wingman not stick closer. Do they get no credit for there own deaths? He was good but not superman. Beurling when first at malta was not a ace he developed there. Others didnt and died. Yet he must take credit for there deaths that BS. Fact is he was brave and never shirked the responsiblity of faceing the enemy. You can say he was imature on the ground but in the air the guys who have ripped him for 50 years were the imature ones. Unimaginative and less skilled too. Btw you fail to even mention the last part of his tenure with 249 where he flew with heyslin <-- spelling mistake. Now there was a team him and beurling. Every one forgets that when he arrived they fought 2 man tactics and saved each others butts many times. Flying as a team. Two fighters of equal ability. To say the fact he was a french canadian or a not drinker leading to him being ostracized is simply wrong. Reread your stuff about him you will see that this in fact was the case. Also you fail to realize how he helped new pilots. He would help any new guy. He may have been short on chat but shop talk on airfighting was something he always did. You think this saved as many lives as he lost wingman at malta? I do. What about gunnery instruction? You know mcleod was helped by him. What about all the other guys ? you think that didnt save guys lives? You see that old wingman bs is the bollocks. He saved far more lives than he ever lost. In my book hes in a +catigory in lives saved vs wingman lost. Fact is he wasent your ordinary guy. In the air or on the groung. Like i said he is a riddle. I have never read something on him that got across what he was realy like. He was a enigma. One more thing he suffers from the same thing that Bong does. He was the best guys take shots at him. Like Bong hes not alive to say his side. Guys say bong wasent a leaded or as good as mcguire lol what bs. Same thing happens to screwball all the time. Guys who wish they were the best takeing shots at him. P.S. The most satisfying part of this whole story to me is that old Godefroy is only known in the context of G. F. Beurling. Most other than us have no idea who he was. In my opinion 50 years ago he realized this was going to be the case and hated him them for it. I guess 7 kills were not enough for the old M.D. lol
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Please don't put RCAF markings on my lancaster (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I am a Brit incase you had not noticed and I really would be kinda anoyed if the lanc had RCAF markings instead of RAF markings. Give the mozzie or a spit RCAF markings. But not my lancaster
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OK EYE, this is my last post on this topic, it's obvious that you are willing to argue through your teeth about him, and that in your eyes he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Your pretty rambly so I will try and just address the things that stood out. (PS please use enter after every few sentences, a wall of words makes it harder for me to follow you)
Godfrey: As far as I know no-one ever called him a coward, he stuck buerling in tail end in the 403 because he trusted buerling's skill. Tail end is rather hard to describe it- they were flying in a finger 4 by the time buerling got back to them after malta. He merely had the last, and highest position in the group.
In the first tour Buerling did he was tail end because he was a new pilot. As the riskiest spot in a formation it was the one the older guys wanted least. Everyone pulled their time in it, by the point Buerling was there JeJ was allready reforming new tactics along with godfrey. This wasn't flown as formation because they hated Buerling or because godfrey was a coward.. it was the SOP of the time. everyone flew it not just them. The time frame is tricky (any help spitfry affectionado's of the BoB?) but Buerling arrived just at the end of the "Vic" formation as standard.
Buerling DID help folks. Resentfully. No-one called him a willing teacher, he wanted to fly and kill things not teach new pilots. But damn, once they got him talking he taught them some damn fine stuff!
Wingmen: A comparison of his diary and some general info shows that from the time he started flying at Malta until the point where no-one would fly with him anymore he lost 16 pilots that were in his wing. This was in approx 6 months. Many many more were left alone and lost him in the fights. His fault was not that THEY didn't stick close enough or that they didn't try and follow him- usually he just peeled off and dropped before they saw him leave. Then they couldn't find him again and were left calling him on the radio and trying to understand a meelee below them.
A case in point of this was on his second england tour, the reason why JeJ told him to leave his wing and never come back to active duty. On a flight over france 3 groups of fighters met 190's at moderately high altitude. As they engaged the fighters (roughly co-alt) Buerlings wingman heard him say "i'm a goner" or words to that effect. Looked around and realized he was gone without a trace.
Not knowing what happenned he was reported as MIA on return. Turns out he saw a 190 10k below him as they entered the fight and put is IX into a steep dive to try for it without telling anyone. Since the IX was faster than his V he had to pull out from a high G dive. The force ripped bolts from his wingmounts and turned his eyes blood red.
He did this kind of stuff ALL THE TIME!
As for haeslin, the two of them were bloody lone wolf types. They didn't really fly any wingman tactics, just hunted together. Would have been fun to watch but hardly indicative of his general behaviour.
And yes, if they had of just figured out he was not working out the way they wanted and let him hunt like they did earlier RAF aces Buerling would have done fine. Unfortunatly he didn't have the capacity to get people to like him enough to let him do that.
(BTW 8 on 1? where the hell are you getting that? he would have never run against those numbers unless he had a superior position.. in which case the numbers are pointless)
BTW Pongo I am not really that hard on him, he was a real puzzling personality. Amazingly good and deadly yet despicable cold blooded killer wrapped up in a church boy who was too shy to say much. But I don't like seeing folks hero worship him either- he wasn't much of a hero. Most of my stuff came from a comparison research of him and billy bishop & collishaw. The similarities between all of them are mind boggling... yet he stands far far out from the others. He was the same but so disturbingly different.
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Another excellent post. I do not hero worship beurling. His tactics as put down in malta spitfire and explained in hero the buzz Beurling story+many other books have helped me in my flight sim carrier. In fact few others including other lw aces put down as much of their tactics for us flight simers to follow. Anyone who wants to improve should check him out. Hartmann and rene fonch <-- mistake are the others who have formed my style of fighting.
JJ didnt say out of my wing he left 127 before that. It was in 412 that the incident happened. And Beurling got his flight in position above a lw formation and said "Get into him boys". Then he made a mistake and went after a low 190. A cardinal sin to those who preached formation flying. The leader was suposed to stay back and direct the battle.
Why did he not know the difference between a 5 and a 9 in a dive? Because his Co would not let him fly one he was under disapline. Beurling liked to practice. He got little time in a mk 9. He flew 5's at the gunnery school he was at. He was forced to fly a tiger moth not to harrass the local towns folk or to bug his co. He did it to practice. Rember he was a pro he wanted to keep sharp. Beurling what ever you might think about him was this. Focused on one goal since he was a kid. Simply to be canada's ace of aces.
Where do you get he lost 16 wingman thats totaly wrong. Ive read about malta and i bet 16 guys were not lost in all of 249 during that time. All couldent be his fault.
If your winging with a guy and you cant keep up its your fault you die. As a wing man you follow. My guess from what ive read is 5 guys died while flying with him in a flight of 4. Against 27 kill 9 probables 3 damaged thats great.
As far as tactics changeing finger four or vic last man gets hit first. Period! That guy was trying to kill him puting him last. Also you think a lw guy is going to hit and run the low formation? No way Then you get all the rest coming down on you. He put him in the tail end charlie position.
Its obvious you know your stuff im not going to change your opinion but you must rember. This guy had alot of people who wanted his spot. The big cheese. He was as big a star as tom cruse in 1943 44. Its part of the canadian psyche to try to bring down those who are elevated back down to the group.Aussies do this to. Both are irreverant to those in authority or who have elevated status. Beurling has suffered this fate for over 50 yrs. Hes a forgoton hero. Yes i said that for all his flaws he was a great fighter pilot. Thats all he ever worked for. That he will never win a popularity contest with those that lived a ripe long life does not matter. The fact is he was number 1 they cant take that away lol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
P.S. the sad fact is as far as the best in ww2 id take any of the top 150 lw aces over him skill for skill. He was great for a allied pilot but never had the number of sorties to become a truly great fighter pilot like the lw guys.
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OK Smartasses, stop arguing and give me some books titles to read. I'm a Luftwaffe nut but I'm trying to learn about RAF fighter pilots and units, particularly post-Battle of Britain. I've noted Gatt's selections, now give me some titles so I can run up my credit card at Amazon.com. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hero <The buzz beurling story>. Malta spit fire. Osprey has a great line of books on the aces. I recomend these highly. Anything on Beurling would be in the spit mk v aces book. Spitfire the canadians in 2 volumes are a nice book set. The first is better. The osprey catalog is where its at in my opinion. I plan on getting them all. If i were you i would find a used book store i found 1 on a trip to san diego and got 15 books for 16 bucks. <-- single best investment i ever made hours of fun + great info.
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Wing Leader by J. Johnson, simply one of the best reccolections of the war around.
Unfortunatly, as I mentioned, most of my other stuff is copies of research done. This material is stored at the war archives in ottowa and toronto. A field trip there can yeild an astonishing amount of (crap) err information about canadian aviators.
Hmm, I actually own far less of the books I have read and cannot pull names easily Funked. However I will go over some of my bibliographies from college and see what I can fish out.
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Funked, I'm looking into 1940-43 Mediterranean Theatre of ops. Other good books are:
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1898697493.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/190230411X.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1902304322.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg) Not yet published
And, about 1940 dogfights over France (good for WWIIOL), another good one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif):
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1902304128.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
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Thanks gents!
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Blue Skies
autobiography of a canadian spit pilot
Bill Olmsted
ISBN 0-7737-52313-7
Starts in Tunisia, and progresses from there
SKurj