Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: captain1ma on February 28, 2009, 03:44:55 PM
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im looking for an opinion from a fighter pilot.
the question: if you're ordered to fly escort, and you happen to fly through a flight of bad guys, do you let them go and continue escort or do you engage the enemy??
thanks in advance!
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LMAO let it go..you lost the battle. Quit before you lose the war.
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I would imagine that your "orders" are your "orders" until your wing commander says otherwise.
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im looking for an opinion from a fighter pilot.
the question: if you're ordered to fly escort, and you happen to fly through a flight of bad guys, do you let them go and continue escort or do you engage the enemy??
thanks in advance!
As someone who flis escort for some squaddies when they are buffing , I'll give ya my take...short and sweet.
IF...the enemy planes are NOT a threat to the buffs your escorting...then your job is to stay with the buffs. IF they are...then your job is to engage....HOWEVER....if you push the bad guys away...and they are no longer a threat....AND you can get back to the buffs to continue your escort...then you do that. The buffs are your duty. Not killing enemies that you "think" "might be" a threat. IF they don't engage...you don't. Simple as that.
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So you're looking for a "fighter pilot's" perspective, and yet you post it on a board where your likely response is going to be from OTHER people who love to see their name in lights?
Yyeeeah.
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Im not a "fighter pilot", gamer or flight sim enthusiast would be a much better description.
But until my flight leader calls for a break or engagement into enemy aircraft I would follow the last given orders for the flight. That's the way its been since the idea of formation was first implemented.
After reading all of the various posts on the FSO BBS, I think its safe to say that your question is very likely to receive a
LOL!
more than anything else!
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RedTop hit the nail on the head. If the E/A were a threat your flight lead would have most likely dispatched a few of you to run off the E/A.
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I gotta admit, I'd more than likely engage the enemy.
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Me thinks someone is omitting some cruical info and asking on the wrong board to get the kind of answer he wants to hear..
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Me thinks someone is omitting some cruical info and asking on the wrong board to get the kind of answer he wants to hear..
Me thinks your are correct ;)
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Me thinks someone is omitting some cruical info and asking on the wrong board to get the kind of answer he wants to hear..
If at first you don't succeed ect ect ect. ;)
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You dive to the deck and runnnnnn! You're going to dieeeee! (http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/Scared-1.gif)
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I would imagine that your "orders" are your "orders" until your wing commander says otherwise.
Yup.
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If at first you don't succeed ect ect ect. ;)
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/content/images/2007/02/21/orders_800_800x600.jpg)
(I believe I will use this picture alot in the future on this BBS :D)
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:rofl
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At the risk of sounding stupid....(which at times is very easy for me to do :lol)...would someone enlighten me....Was my answer wrong? I'm sensing someone tokk abeating and is wondering what happened....
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RT check PM. :aok
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At the risk of sounding stupid....(which at times is very easy for me to do :lol)...would someone enlighten me....Was my answer wrong? I'm sensing someone tokk abeating and is wondering what happened....
Your answer was neither wrong nor right. It's a FSO thing that already resulted in two locked threads and even a pretty clear statement by Skuzzy about that matter ;)
And honestly, I don't think it's either worth or appropriate to reopen that discussion again in the General Discussion forum.
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And honestly, I don't think it's either worth or appropriate to reopen that discussion again in the General Discussion forum.
Wondered why I typed "lose the war". ;)
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Your answer was neither wrong nor right. It's a FSO thing that already resulted in two locked threads and even a pretty clear statement by Skuzzy about that matter ;)
And honestly, I don't think it's either worth or appropriate to reopen that discussion again in the General Discussion forum.
RT check PM. :aok
Thanks Lusche and Bronk....
Capt? Good luck...Walmart has Nomex suits on sale....you may want to hop on over ...this one looks like it may get hot. And on that Note.....back to my Chilli!!!!!
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At the risk of sounding stupid....(which at times is very easy for me to do :lol)...would someone enlighten me....Was my answer wrong? I'm sensing someone tokk abeating and is wondering what happened....
Someone made a bad choice and let a bunch of other someones down and those someones are not happy :D
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Lusche that is a great picture. Complete :rofl material, laughed hard here.
:aok
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To say it more specifically, the purpose of the escort is just that: Escort. IF those cons are making themselves an active threat and making an aggressive approach on the formation (even half-way decent SA can tell you within seconds) then yes, you engage. However once those cons have been driven off or pass you by your place is by the bombers. Whether they made an attack on your bombers or not you DON'T go off chasing them. You run them off, then return to your position in the formation. If they regroup and come back, you deal with them then.
It's a matter of experience and practice to be able to develop that level of discipline, but guaranteed if you ask around you'll find the squadrons that are most effective as escorts may not have the highest kill totals, but they don't lose their bombers because they STAY with them. You can't protect them if you go chasing off after anything with a red con once it's not longer threatening your charges (and real-life operations in WWII bear the truth of that out).
Also, you left a LOT of information out. Namely that film of the incident (as posted in the respective threads) showed that the enemy planes that "flew through" your formation actually did so NEAR THE EDGE OF ICON RANGE.
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The whole idea of sending a few at the enemy is to get them to peel off of the planes you are protecting, if they pose no immediate threat then why go after them.
1st - you are going to have to play catch just to get to them. The BIGGEST newb mistake is to chase the plane that just went through the pack. Why? Well think. You are going to turn around (bleed e), chase after him...he is going to do a much more casual turn than you and come flying past you toward the planes you are escorting, possibly hoing you. NOW you have to run back again! More E bled. Now, he has free reign on the bombers you were supposed to protect.
2nd - If they choose to engage the bombers instead of you, you are in position to hit them while the bombers are protecting themselves. It's a double whammy on the enemy.
3rd- If you were supposed to fly a mission to a target, ONE less plane doing its job could set the whole thing to the crapper. The mission leaders many times know exactly (or there abouts) how many planes are needed for the win.
Bottom line - if you choose to peel off from a group you are a mouth breathing quake kiddie who thrives on arcade like experiences possibly deficient in attention span. WE HAVE ALL DONE IT! Just keep with the group next time and earn your glory through the group process.
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In a scenario, I am often in a position to lead escorts. Many of you have flown with me. You know my position. Escort the Bombers. The job is to get the bad guys out of firing range of the bombers, once out of range, you have done your job, the bombers cannot be shot. 2k is far enough, they are gone, then the job is handed off to the fighter sweep, if available, to get into a dogfight. Whether that occurs or not is irrelevant to me, I'll deal with them if they come back. Ask those who fly with me, I spend the majority of my time directing people back to the escort, breaking them off a fight when they stray too far, most of my groups also tend to be rather successful in escort duty, personally it's a role I favor.
Simple concept, simple order, and many frames have collapsed due to squads chasing bad guys away and getting into a furball. Why do they collapse? Simple. The opposition knows there will be squads that are so eager to get into a dogfight that they can send in a few fighters to strip away the eager aces, leaving the bombers undefended for the second group of fighters laying in wait. Kudos for the fighter jocks, they had a 5 minute fun filled frame, but failed utterly in their job.
The time spent putting orders together are dependent on participants following those orders, if a player cannot bring that to the event, they don't participate. Many people confuse the main arena and AvA with the SEA, that is a mistake, it's a totally different form of play.
There is an opinion.
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My group in the DGS scenario got bomber escort 3 of 4 frames. We took great pride in the fact we got the bombers in and out. It was made clear early and often, you don't go off chasing fighters at the expense of the bombers. It meant less kills for us, but it felt good getting the buffs home. The bombers suffered in that scenario when the escorts got stripped away or went off on their own chasing kills.
I'm a furballer, through and through, but that wasn't our job in the scenario. Doing the job we were assigned was the priority. We had an alt cap we didn't drop below as well. Once the bombers were clear and on the way home, if we had the fuel it was time to hunt on our own.
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What the guy above me said...
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In a scenario, I am often in a position to lead escorts. Many of you have flown with me. You know my position. Escort the Bombers. The job is to get the bad guys out of firing range of the bombers, once out of range, you have done your job, the bombers cannot be shot. 2k is far enough, they are gone, then the job is handed off to the fighter sweep, if available, to get into a dogfight. Whether that occurs or not is irrelevant to me, I'll deal with them if they come back. Ask those who fly with me, I spend the majority of my time directing people back to the escort, breaking them off a fight when they stray too far, most of my groups also tend to be rather successful in escort duty, personally it's a role I favor.
Simple concept, simple order, and many frames have collapsed due to squads chasing bad guys away and getting into a furball. Why do they collapse? Simple. The opposition knows there will be squads that are so eager to get into a dogfight that they can send in a few fighters to strip away the eager aces, leaving the bombers undefended for the second group of fighters laying in wait. Kudos for the fighter jocks, they had a 5 minute fun filled frame, but failed utterly in their job.
The time spent putting orders together are dependent on participants following those orders, if a player cannot bring that to the event, they don't participate. Many people confuse the main arena and AvA with the SEA, that is a mistake, it's a totally different form of play.
There is an opinion.
Posted on: Today at 08:06:26 PMPosted by: Guppy35
Insert Quote
My group in the DGS scenario got bomber escort 3 of 4 frames. We took great pride in the fact we got the bombers in and out. It was made clear early and often, you don't go off chasing fighters at the expense of the bombers. It meant less kills for us, but it felt good getting the buffs home. The bombers suffered in that scenario when the escorts got stripped away or went off on their own chasing kills.
I'm a furballer, through and through, but that wasn't our job in the scenario. Doing the job we were assigned was the priority. We had an alt cap we didn't drop below as well. Once the bombers were clear and on the way home, if we had the fuel it was time to hunt on our own.
These are perfect examples....ROC hit a great point as well about the differance in the AvA , MA , DA. This will probably sound dumb (again) but in my squad...even in the caotic MA , we do Buff escorts some. I've taken 3 or for guys and we've escorted 2 or 3 of our squaddies on some very long runs. I'm talking 100 percent fueled ponies and 2 DT's...It's ALWAYS fly to live and keep the buffs alive. Hard deck of what we set it at...chase em away if you don't kill em right off...pass em by if not a threat. BUT ALWAYS stay with the buffs and keep em alive. Have we been 100 percent succesful? Nope...but we're not bad :)
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How about a buff pilot opinion?
My orders are to kill something on the ground. If I am killed, my target is not destroyed. If my target is not destroyed, my side loses points, possibly the war.
It is a game we play here, but to be effective, each pilot, each squad, each flight, and each side needs to follow the orders given them as everyone has a job assigned them, and each assignment is important. If it wasn't, they (The designers of the event) would not have made your position available in the first place.
If you die trying to do your job, that is one thing, but to run off leaving others to die, you have failed your squad, flight, entire team, but most of all, you have failed yourself.
My opinion is, you were wrong to leave your bombers for the personal fun of engaging in a furball. That just stinks!
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Also, you left a LOT of information out. Namely that film of the incident (as posted in the respective threads) showed that the enemy planes that "flew through" your formation actually did so NEAR THE EDGE OF ICON RANGE.
Wrong. At least three enemy fighters passed within 500ft of me and went straight through our squad formation. They may not have been a threat to the bombers at that point but they sure as hell were a threat to us. After that, protecting the bombers went on the back burner for me and protecting my squaddies was more important.
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Wow, we're up to story number three.
First you had no interest in baby-sitting bombers and went off to find a fight because on your own admission that's all you wanted to do.
When you were (rightly) blasted for that, all the sudden you WERE defending the bombers because the cons were "the threat of the moment."
Now you say you were defending YOURSELF.
Can't wait to hear story #4.
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Wrong. At least three enemy fighters passed within 500ft of me and went straight through our squad formation. They may not have been a threat to the bombers at that point but they sure as hell were a threat to us. After that, protecting the bombers went on the back burner for me and protecting my squaddies was more important.
Did they blow through or engage your group? It sounds like they did what they were supposed to do and sucked your guys off the bombers. Real easy for fighter drivers to get kill fever and forget the job at hand.
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Wow, we're up to story number three.
First you had no interest in baby-sitting bombers and went off to find a fight because on your own admission that's all you wanted to do.
When you were (rightly) blasted for that, all the sudden you WERE defending the bombers because the cons were "the threat of the moment."
Now you say you were defending YOURSELF.
Can't wait to hear story #4.
I don't need to make up stories. You weren't there and don't know what happened other then what has been said on the BBS. Sure I said some stuff under a time of anger and stress and I told the reason why I did to sled and from his reply I think he understands. Iv reviewed the film of that night many times and Iv come to the conclusion that maybe we didn't do the right thing but we cant change that. I don't know if you are a squad leader but when you run into the enemy like that as CO you have to process a lot of information in a very short time and with squad and range vox going off it can get a little hectic.
If you really want the truth I wasn't happy when I saw we had escort duty. It was even worst when I saw who we were flying with. BUT I was willing to put aside our differences for a night because I like flying as a group with my squad. When we ran into the LA7s I saw a few of my squad members fighting a few of them and made the call to turn back and help. (As I said it may not have been the right call but it is the call I made and I cant change that.) We were doing pretty good, and would have rejoined the bombers, until another group of LA7s came in and I started hearing squaddies call out that they were down. From what I saw in the stats the bombers made it to target and most made it back to base. And (I cant believe I'm saying this) the TAC guys did a good job picking up the slack.
I really don't think anyone would have made a fuss if I didn't open my big mouth and I really do regret that because I screwed it up for them. Maybe someday they will let us back in and if we get escort duty Ill just tell the squad to keep flying with the bombers of we pass by any enemy.
At this time I would like to apologise to the FSO community and this will be the last thing I have to say about what happened that night. :salute
Did they blow through or engage your group? It sounds like they did what they were supposed to do and sucked your guys off the bombers. Real easy for fighter drivers to get kill fever and forget the job at hand.
Dan a few flew past us to the right a few K out then I had to dodge three that flew right into our group. There were more coming in that flew below us right after them and that was when I looked back for the first time to see a few squaddies already engaged with the enemy. What we learned afterward was that the bombers weren't their target nor were we. From the looks of it they were after another group of jabos that were in the same area (I think), but we didn't know that at the time.
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At this time I would like to apologise to the FSO community and this will be the last thing I have to say about what happened that night. :salute
Hey, it takes integrity to be the first in an argument to step up and say this. I hope others can agree and let this go, no parting shots necessary.
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again, refer to my earlier post about this. Roc continues.
Nuff said. No peeling away 3-5 fighters to chase a plane that has blown past you. Your wingman should pickup anything that may be approaching from the rear, and then if you really need to evade to lead him toward the group so YOU can take the shot.
Far too often EVERYONE breaks off to kill the enemy fighter. One pass by a few guys and that should be it. Regroup
Regroup should be easy as you SHOULD be higher than the bombers, so diving on a threat to the bombers is easier but lets face it, they are going to get that first shot off unless they come in from the six, at which point it should be an decently easy kill correct? AND you are in line to form with the bombers for any additional 6 threats.
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again, refer to my earlier post about this. Roc continues.
Nuff said. No peeling away 3-5 fighters to chase a plane that has blown past you. Your wingman should pickup anything that may be approaching from the rear, and then if you really need to evade to lead him toward the group so YOU can take the shot.
Far too often EVERYONE breaks off to kill the enemy fighter. One pass by a few guys and that should be it. Regroup
Regroup should be easy as you SHOULD be higher than the bombers, so diving on a threat to the bombers is easier but lets face it, they are going to get that first shot off unless they come in from the six, at which point it should be an decently easy kill correct? AND you are in line to form with the bombers for any additional 6 threats.
you know, you could just let it go.