Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Scotch on March 01, 2009, 09:44:06 PM
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(http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/Scotch/12v1.JPG)
12v1
I kill 4 of them in the next 30seconds.
Ridiculous.
FLY 38G's IN THE NEXT SCENARIO! SIGN UP NOW!
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Not like I wasn't saying this about the 38G forever. Now you figure it out? :)
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Good thing he circled it, I was never good at those Where's Waldo things.
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<-----just shakes head :(
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You have 4 other planes inside icon range, 2 of them 3.x and 2 of them 4.x
Might be a bit of an exaggeration to say "vs 1"
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You have 4 other planes inside icon range, 2 of them 3.x and 2 of them 4.x
Might be a bit of an exaggeration to say "vs 1"
Ok then. It was 18 vs. 4. :huh :rolleyes:
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You have 4 other planes inside icon range, 2 of them 3.x and 2 of them 4.x
Might be a bit of an exaggeration to say "vs 1"
:huh
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I had 10-15 Rooks pinning me down in an A6M2 at one of our fields tonight. They kept trying to dive in off their 5-10K perches to pick me. I kept circling over the field since they wern't going to let me get any air. I took one ping and landed after about 10 minutes of avoiding the dweebs.
This was after a me on five or six on the deck a few minutes earlier at the edge of our radar ring. A couple friendlies came in to break that up and I had headed home when I got pinned down.
All I can say is you've gotta love the way an A6M2 can avoid hoardlings and cherry pickers.
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You have 4 other planes inside icon range, 2 of them 3.x and 2 of them 4.x
Might be a bit of an exaggeration to say "vs 1"
I'll post the film and you can watch them circling out at 3.x because they're not about to jump into that mess.
:salute
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You first!
I wasn't making fun of you, just pointing out what's in that screenshot. And even if they're timid alt monkeys (noting the alts listed, hehehe :t ) the enemy will still take that into consideration, giving them pause.
I'm not saying "that's not a gang!" because it clearly is, but you've got a lotta friends nearby and even just 1 friend can help (sometimes) getting out of really nasty situations.
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http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/Scotch/38g.ahf
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I was looking at that from above and just shaking my head. I'd have interrupted the gang bang but it was better still to watch Scotch kill em one after the other all on his own. Maybe you can't relate to this pov, Krusty?
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krusty, pm. :salute
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http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/Scotch/38g.ahf
Now that was funny.
I see what the problem is though. You were flying a 38G with my name on it. My 38G always looked that messed up :)
And yes that was a gang of a low alt 38G. I'd surely recognize one of those
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Good thing about beeing surrounded by a horde like that is that you can just press the trigger and wiggle your stick (or mouse) around and get kills. Aiming is not needed :aok . You also get proxys by spits killshooting eachother :aok
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I watched the film...you dove to clear danos tail and got bounced...you ho'd one and it looks like two others kill shot themselves...not sure why talas2 died later giving you a 4th kill but it wasn't from your guns...
so to say you killed 4 is a bit much...
12 v 1 really???
your squaddies are talking to you on vox watching and not engaging...odd.....seems a little contrived....you can see you are just off a bish base......too bad one can't look at the map or see the previous 5 minutes....
but hey this is what the bbs is for nowadays i guess...thanks for posting the film...helps put things in perspective... :cool:
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Good thing about beeing surrounded by a horde like that is that you can just press the trigger and wiggle your stick (or mouse) around and get kills. Aiming is not needed :aok . You also get proxys by spits killshooting eachother :aok
Dont forget the 109's who lawn dart at 425MPH.
Those are my favorite.
Usually members of FALCONWING's squad.
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Dont forget the 109's who lawn dart at 425MPH.
Those are my favorite.
Usually members of FALCONWING's squad.
Uh-oh....somebody touched a nerve.... :lol :lol :D...the kneejerk insults have begun! Tell ya what...instead of beginning repetitive BBS threads your squad could just start a email list and swap emails titled "we are uber (though we often lack SA)" Then the rest of us who wish the BBS wasn't always a flamefest or a "look at me" tribute could enjoy general discussion about the mechanics of the game..... :O
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(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/waystin2/AnotherHordeStory.jpg)
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(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/waystin2/AnotherHordeStory.jpg)
Perfect!
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Uh-oh....somebody touched a nerve.... :lol :lol :D...the kneejerk insults have begun! Tell ya what...instead of beginning repetitive BBS threads your squad could just start a email list and swap emails titled "we are uber (though we often lack SA)" Then the rest of us who wish the BBS wasn't always a flamefest or a "look at me" tribute could enjoy general discussion about the mechanics of the game..... :O
1.) Didnt start thread.
2.) No nerve touched.
3.) You talk a lot.
4.) Have a nice day. :)
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your squaddies are talking to you on vox watching and not engaging...odd.....seems a little contrived....you can see you are just off a bish base......too bad one can't look at the map or see the previous 5 minutes....
Contrived, as opposed to hording a single con any chance they get?
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Falcon...
I'm not throwing rocks but hows this any different then our little tussle last weekend. If B4 hadn't buzzsawed me off your Ki you'd have died there in the midst of a 1 on 5+ vs an A-20. The game is undoubtedly complex and there are a lot of aspects to game play. However the simple reality is that quality ACM is fast disappearing. More and more the air combat aspects are becoming one of opportunity not manufacture. This leads to excessive speed and the resulting lawn darts among other things. As you've mentioned your a seasoned player with a solid understanding of ACM yet the reality is that those actual ACM skills have deteriorated to the point that you ended up going @#$ on range vs an A-20. I run into a lot of "old hands" who are a former shadow of them selfs ACM wise do to changes in how they play the game.
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I just find it hilarious that watching a squaddie pull a couple of pixel kills out of that pixel mess, before replaning for seconds, is "contrived and odd". LOL
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I'm not going to waste my time with the muppet envy.
The thread is what it is and Falcon is an idiot. You're pretty much dead wrong in every point you try to make, but convincing you otherwise will be impossible and a waste of time. It won't accomplish anything even if you do realize you're wrong (or dumb).
Please go rot away in the corner.
Thanks.
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I run into a lot of "old hands" who are a former shadow of them selfs ACM wise do to changes in how they play the game.
In all sad honesty, I'd place myself in that category. :(
The past week, or so, I've been actively avoiding blowing all my 'global engagement' advantages to engage a single con in a "fight."
Been picking a lot. While its not as much fun, I finally just got sick and tired of rolling in for a fight and ending up giving a kill to whichever Spit was able to land the most hispanos and assists to 10 other drones.
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Contrived, as opposed to hording a single con any chance they get?
I'm really not looking to get into another pissing match with you but your point of view is biased...
i will preface by saying i wasn't there but...
1. I know how dano flies (and i respect him) but i know the situations he tends to be in...
2. Dano is heading away from an enemy base with MULTIPLE LOW cons chasing him...
3. the 38g dives in between him and 9 of the cons without enough E to outrun them ...
4. No problem there...we have all died to save a buddy who had kills etc...
5. He dies
6. He then starts another thread about being ganged
7. He posts his film and you hear 2 muppet voices who can obviously see the fight but don't help
8. If they were helping then it wasn't a 12v1 as he ascertained...
9. There has been a series of bbs posts suggesting Scotch gets ganged by bad people...with screen shots..
Yes I think this is contrived...look the word up...your situation doesn't make sense to use this word...
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Falconwng smells like tinkle.
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Falcon...
I'm not throwing rocks but hows this any different then our little tussle last weekend. If B4 hadn't buzzsawed me off your Ki you'd have died there in the midst of a 1 on 5+ vs an A-20. The game is undoubtedly complex and there are a lot of aspects to game play. However the simple reality is that quality ACM is fast disappearing. More and more the air combat aspects are becoming one of opportunity not manufacture. This leads to excessive speed and the resulting lawn darts among other things. As you've mentioned your a seasoned player with a solid understanding of ACM yet the reality is that those actual ACM skills have deteriorated to the point that you ended up going @#$ on range vs an A-20. I run into a lot of "old hands" who are a former shadow of them selfs ACM wise do to changes in how they play the game.
No offense humble but I have no idea what you are talking about....
I don't fly the ki-84...I didn't log on last weekend....I checked my stats and no ki84 flights for last tour....I dont remember fighting an a-20 of recent memory that was about to kill me....
I am Falcnwng in the game....there are many other Falcon related cpids.....
Hope to get to test my mettle against you in the air sometime.... :salute
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Fair enough.. I don't take any responsibility for what anyone else but me says on the BBS, squaddie or not. I do think you helped this misunderstanding by just saying "odd and contrived" flat out. The fight is all I'm concerned with. Why you'd argue about the forum discussion and pov's before the real topic here (the fight) is what's odd, IMO.
So, no, my pov's not biased. It wasn't 1:12 either, but it was definitely 1:6+. You're saying it like it's all such a big difference! :lol who can obviously see the fight but don't help
Newsflash.. You don't actually DIE in this game.. The game is what you make it.. This set up was an opportunity to do something pretty rare, that is manage to shoot 4 of em down while ~4-6 more are all over you. If I had needed a reason to say you're biased, I'd say refusing to acknowledge this aspect is a clue.
"if they were helping"
... I was just standing out of reach and watching.. What do you think, was I helping? Would it have made any difference as far as qualifying this one as "ganging" goes? You have no point here but to contradict the obvious, just because it's from a squad or player you happen to not like. And then you call others biased.
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Fair enough.. I don't take any responsibility for what anyone else but me says on the BBS, squaddie or not. I do think you helped this misunderstanding by just saying "odd and contrived" flat out. The fight is all I'm concerned with. Why you'd argue about the forum discussion and pov's before the real topic here (the fight) is what's odd, IMO.
So, no, my pov's not biased. It wasn't 1:12 either, but it was definitely 1:6+. You're saying it like it's all such a big difference! :lolNewsflash.. You don't actually DIE in this game.. The game is what you make it.. This set up was an opportunity to do something pretty rare, that is manage to shoot 4 of em down while ~4-6 more are all over you. If I had needed a reason to say you're biased, I'd say refusing to acknowledge this aspect is a clue. ... I was just standing out of reach and watching.. What do you think, was I helping? Would it have made any difference as far as qualifying this one as "ganging" goes? You have no point here but to contradict the obvious, just because it's from a squad or player you happen to not like. And then you call others biased.
Moot yoou seem llike a thoughtful guy and i hate that we always seem to be at odds...you are typically respectful and i appreciate that :salute
As you stated above....you were within range to see the fight and you chose to stay out...you wanted to see the situation develop...its everybody's $15 so i have no problem with that....
But to say Scotch "shotdown" or "killed" 4 of them is a reach...he purposefully ho'd one and 3 died not from his guns...likely killshooter
Again it's his $15....enjoy
But to act like this was a "gangbang" situation when you readily admit you were staying out and he caused it by diving in front of them with no E is deceiving...and to post a screenshot of it (again) to insinuate this a problem with MA gameplay is ...well....contrived.....
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You're saying that if you get the enemy to kill their wingmen on accident it doesn't count? To me that deserves bonus points.
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You're saying that if you get the enemy to kill their wingmen on accident it doesn't count? To me that deserves bonus points.
Most times you are stall fighting/turnfighting in a furball situation you get guys to die this way...of course it counts towards your stats...but i dont think of them as earned kills....his only "move" was a loop, ho, and fly straight....yes kill shooter is your friend when outnumbered....but only if the guy in front can't shoot worth a darn and won't get out of the way... :cool:
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It's nice that you don't get all thin skinned and can take a straight talk, I appreciate that too. Disagreements are catalyst for getting to the bottom of things, I hope you and I understand each other on that.. If that's agreed on, it doesn't really matter whether or not we have any other interests in common.
But you're right, Saavik just pops out of existence, Noble levels himself into the ground, and Pounder rams Scotch.. I never looked at the film from Scotch's end because this would have been the n-th time he does it. Him, Agent, Sads, and Dano just get into these sorts of moshpits and regularly take out half of them before getting shot to pieces.
HO-ing in a 5+:1 though, is nothing to criticize as unfair I think. What's he supposed to do, take the gangbang as a fair premise?
And it's definitely not contrived to post screenshots of gangbangs in the MA to point out how rampant this poop is. You're setting yourself up for a bad defeat on this last point. If I don't have film and screenshots of that myself, I can easily gather evidence over the next couple of weeks. I think you're just being incredulous the same way you were of Widewing, asking "just who the heck he is".
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This is a continuation of many threads that continually end the same way. Is the "need for attention" this bad?
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No offense humble but I have no idea what you are talking about....
I don't fly the ki-84...I didn't log on last weekend....I checked my stats and no ki84 flights for last tour....I dont remember fighting an a-20 of recent memory that was about to kill me....
I am Falcnwng in the game....there are many other Falcon related cpids.....
Hope to get to test my mettle against you in the air sometime.... :salute
Whoops, my bad...
I'm pretty much a weekend flier right now, I'm sure we'll meet up sooner or later:)
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I'm really not looking to get into another pissing match with you but your point of view is biased...
i will preface by saying i wasn't there but...
7. He posts his film and you hear 2 muppet voices who can obviously see the fight but don't help
just for the record, i've been in a few multiple con fights...all of which i lost. all of which i had squaddies within helping distance. they didn't. why? because i asked them to stay out. the fight was fun. they thought i was nuts, and got a decent laugh out of it. they also probably got a couple easy kills after i died too.
what i'm getting at, is that possibly he didn't want help.
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You're saying that if you get the enemy to kill their wingmen on accident it doesn't count? To me that deserves bonus points.
I sometimes got more enjoyment of getting a maneuver kill in WB than shooting the plane down.
ack-ack
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But to act like this was a "gangbang" situation when you readily admit you were staying out and he caused it by diving in front of them with no E is deceiving...and to post a screenshot of it (again) to insinuate this a problem with MA gameplay is ...well....contrived.....
Someone would have to be incredibly lazy to "contrive" a screenshot like this...
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Someone would have to be incredibly lazy to "contrive" a screenshot like this...
Vudak Did you bother to watch the film? He puts himself in this situation...he did not need to dive into the path of so many fiters lifting out of an airbase but he chooses too (his other squaddies chose not too)....i won't go so far as to ascertain what his intent was at the time...lazy was not one of the moods i considered....
Moot we seem to talking parallel to each other....I'm not saying gangbangs don't exist...I'm not suggesting gangbangs are contrived....
Just after seeing 3 posts of poor ole scotch getting gangbanged i began to ask myself....what was the motivation behind these posts and how did the same poor ole guy always end up on film???
Luckily he posted the film.....I would LOVE for steve to post the film he took his screenshot from...(the whole film please). If one views this film one quickly realizes there isn't an accident or hordes that are lurking around him that cause these "gangbang" screenshots...its the result of his concious decisions in flight to put himself there...and take screenshots....and post them with comments like 'ridiculous"....hmmm :rolleyes:
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We're not in parallel, if you think these gang bangs happen all because of the guy getting ganged, everytime. Scotch & co chronically look for those fights, they get a kick out of it. It's not always on purpose that they get ganged, but whether or not they purposedly get into those ganging mobs, the mobs are the same: They will gang you regardless of how cheap it is, of how little satisfaction there is in shooting over 6 other friendlies' shoulder for one measely kill with ZERO challenge or risk to show for it.
That's the point of posting it like Scotch did. One puny P38G, and 6+ cons get all over it.
The hordes do lurk around. I guess you need to see it for yourself, the same way you need to have Widewing back up that he isn't just some name next to lots of posts on the forum. I'll post some screens/films.. No promises I don't forget to record it (like a dozen other things I'm supposed to keep track of), but I'll keep it in mind.
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If one views this film one quickly realizes there isn't an accident or hordes that are lurking around him that cause these "gangbang" screenshots...its the result of his concious decisions in flight to put himself there
What is he supposed to do? Not fly anywhere unless he has greater numbers flying along side him?
I believe right there is the real issue and how AH has changed...
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We're not in parallel, if you think these gang bangs happen all because of the guy getting ganged, everytime. Scotch & co chronically look for those fights, they get a kick out of it. It's not always on purpose that they get ganged, but whether or not they purposedly get into those ganging mobs, the mobs are the same: They will gang you regardless of how cheap it is, of how little satisfaction there is in shooting over 6 other friendlies' shoulder for one measely kill with ZERO challenge or risk to show for it.
That's the point of posting it like Scotch did. One puny P38G, and 6+ cons get all over it.
The hordes do lurk around. I guess you need to see it for yourself, the same way you need to have Widewing back up that he isn't just some name next to lots of posts on the forum. I'll post some screens/films.. No promises I don't forget to record it (like a dozen other things I'm supposed to keep track of), but I'll keep it in mind.
Well lets leave it at that...you have cleverly proved my point and thank you very much :aok According to YOU...scotch purposefully gets ganged by flying into situations where it is bound to occur and then posts screenies to show how bad gameplay has deteriorated. By your own admission you hover at high alt around these fights for amusement and don't dive in to help. Im assuming when you say "Scotch & co" you mean others in your squad strive for the same thing. Cool...I'll leave a 20 dollar bill on the sidewalk and say how bad society is when someone picks it up and keeps it.... :lol
Thanks for explaining from an insider's vantage how this occurs. I'm sure this behavior builds credibility and doesn't suggest personal agendas...
Delirium...if i had higher alt squaddies i probably wouldn't dive in front of 6-9 enemy cons and blow my e...but that just me (actually from watching you fly..you wouldn't either...you're cleverer than that). However if i did say "What the hell?" and dove in and died I wouldn't post screenies ridiculing those who killed me and suggest it was somehow their fault for the situation I put myself in.
I feel quite vindicated now...thanks :salute
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However if i did say "What the hell?" and dove in and died I wouldn't post screenies ridiculing those who killed me and suggest it was somehow their fault for the situation I put myself in.
No, you wouldn't ridicule those that killed you. You would likely go on another recruiting drive for your squadron to make up for the deficiency in numbers. Last I knew the Birds of PrAy were up to 71 people, total.
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Haha look at falconweenie go
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Im going to go stick my neck out ................. Looks like a funny screen shot to me. :noid
Also looks like most flights in a 38 to me :P
Crims
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ok....so i just watched the film. what i saw was a guy in a 38 o deth, dive in past part of the horde, to clear the other part of the horde off of a countryman. he did as he intended, got 4 of em in the process, and it looks and sounds like he had fun doing so.
i fail to see the problem here.
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Well lets leave it at that...you have cleverly proved my point and thank you very much :aok According to YOU...scotch purposefully gets ganged by flying into situations where it is bound to occur and then posts screenies to show how bad gameplay has deteriorated. By your own admission you hover at high alt around these fights for amusement and don't dive in to help. Im assuming when you say "Scotch & co" you mean others in your squad strive for the same thing. Cool...I'll leave a 20 dollar bill on the sidewalk and say how bad society is when someone picks it up and keeps it.... :lol
Thanks for explaining from an insider's vantage how this occurs. I'm sure this behavior builds credibility and doesn't suggest personal agendas...
Delirium...if i had higher alt squaddies i probably wouldn't dive in front of 6-9 enemy cons and blow my e...but that just me (actually from watching you fly..you wouldn't either...you're cleverer than that). However if i did say "What the hell?" and dove in and died I wouldn't post screenies ridiculing those who killed me and suggest it was somehow their fault for the situation I put myself in.
I feel quite vindicated now...thanks :salute
the more i read your stuff, the more respect i lose for what you type.
he's having FUN. here on the bbs, and in the arena. go have a drink, and come back, and ya might get it. \ :aok :aok
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:aok
Haha
I could post a wal mart ad from todays newspaper and falconweenie would construe it into another xx page thread of garbage.
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I feel quite vindicated now...thanks :salute
See, this is why I didn't buy your token "we're really parallel here", or your fake salute. "Vindicated"? :lol You just don't get it, and yet (either disingenuously or because it really does escape you) you'll jump at the first opportunity to pretend you've got the high ground.. You're after the last word, not getting to the truth. I don't have that problem, i cant relate to that.
Thanks for explaining from an insider's vantage how this occurs. I'm sure this behavior builds credibility and doesn't suggest personal agendas...
?? Agendas? You mean playing russian roulette is an agenda? :lol You're the guy at the head of a mega squad, and we're the guys in a motley crew of random furballers who'll switch to wherever the fight is, and you're saying we have an agenda? We can't even fly formation in scenarios, nevermind in the MA, and you're saying we have agendas? :rofl However if i did say "What the hell?" and dove in and died I wouldn't post screenies ridiculing those who killed me and suggest it was somehow their fault for the situation I put myself in.
That's not the point.. One 38G gets totally swarmed.. It's just one instance of the dozens or hundreds that happen all over AH, all day. Where's your pigeon holing Guppy35 (and BaldEagl, Nilsen, and dozens/hundreds of other players) along with Scotch? It's nowhere because you're after Scotch here, the messenger, not the damn truth of how ridiculously lame the path of least resistance gameplay is. You're letting your dislike for Scotch get in the way of objective argument. And you call others biased and say they've got agendas.
"Vindicated" LOL Did we just step on the set of Spartacus or Gladiator or something?
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Falconwing, that screenshot is a prime example of what the MA's have degraded into no matter how the situation developed. I spent a fair amount of last camp diving into those exact types of situations myself just for fun because they are the only types of fighting left in the MA's for the most part.
I posted earlier in this thread about fighting against six in a Zeke. That started out as me on two, then three, then four, then five, then six. Had a couple of friendlies not flown in who knows how many I'd have been facing. This happened between bases where opposing radar rings met. Answer me in all honesty: Do you really advocate that a fight should be six or more on one?
If Scotch dove in and lost his e at an enemy base does that now suddenly justify six or more on one? It seems that's what you're saying. Obviously there were other enemy's around that a few of those could have gone after but they chose not to in order to gang the single guy who came in actually wanting to play/fight.
Yes, that screenie is a perfect representation of the MA's and a player like youself, the CO of a large squad, should be doing more to disuade this type of play rather than supporting it.
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See, this is why I didn't buy your token "we're really parallel here", or your fake salute. "Vindicated"? :lol You just don't get it, and yet (either disingenuously or because it really does escape you) you'll jump at the first opportunity to pretend you've got the high ground.. You're after the last word, not getting to the truth. I don't have that problem, i cant relate to that.?? Agendas? You mean playing russian roulette is an agenda? :lol You're the guy at the head of a mega squad, and we're the guys in a motley crew of random furballers who'll switch to wherever the fight is, and you're saying we have an agenda? We can't even fly formation in scenarios, nevermind in the MA, and you're saying we have agendas? :rofl That's not the point.. One 38G gets totally swarmed.. It's just one instance of the dozens or hundreds that happen all over AH, all day. Where's your pigeon holing Guppy35 (and BaldEagl, Nilsen, and dozens/hundreds of other players) along with Scotch? It's nowhere because you're after Scotch here, the messenger, not the damn truth of how ridiculously lame the path of least resistance gameplay is. You're letting your dislike for Scotch get in the way of objective argument. And you call others biased and say they've got agendas.
"Vindicated" LOL Did we just step on the set of Spartacus or Gladiator or something?
Moot I dont think you grasp what certain words mean...you have said before in posts English is not your native language so I truly understand..to further our discussion...
Parallel: when i say we are talking parallel I DON'T mean we are in agreement...I mean our thoughts/beliefs are NOT intersecting (crossing paths)...i.e. you don't get what I am trying to say....
Contrive:
con·trive (kn-trv)
v. con·trived, con·triv·ing, con·trives
v.tr.
1. To plan with cleverness or ingenuity; devise.
2. To invent or fabricate, especially by improvisation
So when i suggest a screenshot is contrived, I am in essence saying i believed it was set up or caused to occur.
Vindicate
vin·di·cate
Pronunciation: \ˈvin-də-ˌkāt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): vin·di·cat·ed; vin·di·cat·ing
Etymology: Latin vindicatus, past participle of vindicare to lay claim to, avenge, from vindic-, vindex claimant, avenger
Date: circa 1571
1obsolete : to set free : deliver
2: avenge
3 a: to free from allegation or blame b (1): confirm , substantiate (2): to provide justification or defense for : justify c: to protect from attack or encroachment : defend
This one is harder because I am using the 3rd definition of the word. In your post you essentially confirmed what I suggested with the screenshot being contrived. So I used the word "vindicate" in its more colloquial sense to basically say I was substantiated in my thought process.
I don't mind trying to have a discussion with you but its hard when you don't seem to understand the words I'm using....
Back to our discussion...you are correct that Scotch is not someone I think much of...but he is more in the category of "I could care less"
You are correct that I think highly of Dan (Guppy) but Dan was a true furballer and he won my respect despite many differences here on the bbs...he was also a really decent guy best i could tell.
My bigger issue has to do with the trolling of the bbs with fabricated screenshots with exaggerated claims and insults...you (and others) argument seems to stem around "improviing gameplay". I have no issue with that but lets have an honest discussion with an honest thread. Instead you and others choose to suggest that no one dare question Scotch.
Instead:
Mazz - insults my squaddies
Moot - Mentions my argument (long settled) with widewing multiple times
Delirium - Brings up number of members in my squad
Scotch - acts like a 3 yo with name calling
Moot you are a member of the DFC as are the other responders (no don't go start another thread on the DFC bbs about me) :t You are a "club" formed with a purpose. Sooo what is the purpose of the DFC? Got it? :aok Okay...That is your agenda. When I say "agenda" that is what I am referring to. Oddly enough I am not against the DFC. I actually think the idea is a positive one...but the way the message is being disemminated is what I find annoying. Very negative. Always someone else's fault that someone gets ganged, horded etc.
I guess the Muppets are trying to be like the BKs of old without the skill level, respect or sense of humor...but as the squad with the most members in DFC they seem to think they have a leg to stand on when it comes to leadership...it is a shame for the concept of the DFC imho.
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Falconwing, that screenshot is a prime example of what the MA's have degraded into no matter how the situation developed. I spent a fair amount of last camp diving into those exact types of situations myself just for fun because they are the only types of fighting left in the MA's for the most part.
I posted earlier in this thread about fighting against six in a Zeke. That started out as me on two, then three, then four, then five, then six. Had a couple of friendlies not flown in who knows how many I'd have been facing. This happened between bases where opposing radar rings met. Answer me in all honesty: Do you really advocate that a fight should be six or more on one?
If Scotch dove in and lost his e at an enemy base does that now suddenly justify six or more on one? It seems that's what you're saying. Obviously there were other enemy's around that a few of those could have gone after but they chose not to in order to gang the single guy who came in actually wanting to play/fight.
Yes, that screenie is a perfect representation of the MA's and a player like youself, the CO of a large squad, should be doing more to disuade this type of play rather than supporting it.
Bald please read my posts carefully and point out where i advocated ganging? Seriously one quote from this entire thread....ths whole catfight revolves around the fact I watched the film that was posted and "dared" to note that the screenie was convenient and the claims were exaggerated... :lol :rofl :huh
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I have a good handle on english here. I laugh at calling it vindication because of its connotations. Would you really use that word in reality? When you use a word in any language, it's common to choose one that doesn't leave room for error, that's not ambiguous or otherwise vague in conveying what you really, precisely mean.. Vindicated implies the rest of its definition, which is definitely comical in this argument. That's semantics.
Let's just get to the point. The screenshot and movie wasn't set up. It just happens to be a nearly perfect illustration of what happens every evening we get together and fly against the hordes. I have one from that same night where a group of players are literally flying their CV planes like drones on ballistic missile trajectories aimed at the airfield strat targets. Flying behind them, shooting at them, flying next to and nearly on their 12 as they were flaming did nothing to shake them out of that win the war turpor. That wasn't set up either. Maybe you're a bit paranoid here. The hordes are definitely not something anyone who's played any amount of time in the LW arenas in the last couple of years to question whether they actually happen. They happen, and they happen often. Just off the top of my head here.. Look up some of Wotan's posts. He noted it too, and that's back in ~2002. You could easily get the same assessment from Fariz. Or Fester.
"Guppy won your respect". Again, are you saying you would argue against someone not on the merit of their arguments but on how much you liked or disliked them? Again.. this is your idea of not being biased?
And then you try and bring my being in the DFC into this. Now that ticks me off. Let me put it this way.. If a cop is having a nice damn beer at the bar, and you start rattling his cage and trying to poke at the uniform he isn't even wearing at the time.. Do you expect him to take you seriously? Not to think he's got someone trying hard to be a pr**k in front of him?
That said - The DFC agenda is to do what it can to improve the quality of gameplay. Now we've gone over this before, but let me re-iterate it for you once again. The point of the game is air combat. Air combat is a martial art. It's just a simulation of the real thing, but the dynamics are the same, no matter how fake the pixels are in that make-believe dimension. You cannot seriously combat efficiently without considering both tactics and strategy. The whole furball/win-the-war dichotomy is bogus. The two are sides of the same coin. Strategy and tactics work hand in hand. One of the things the DFC would like to do is enrich the gameplay quality by impressing on all players the value in learning proper BFM, ACM, general tactical rules of thumbs, strategic possibilities, etc. All the elements that will fill their toolbox with more means to reach whatever their ends are, not the least of which is having fun.
Why would these starchy formal academic sounding disciplines tantamount to having fun? Because they give the players more chances of success. They allow players to get into more fights, rather than sit out anything mildly difficult. They will get the players to spread out for more challenging fights than just piling up on one low con while 10 more are coming with altitude, because they figure it might be the only kill they're going to get out of the sortie, since it's really not in their hands that the outcome of the fight rests, but in whatever the initial relative handicaps (altitude, speed, position, numbers, plane types, etc) are at T=0. IOW, without the skills that the players will WANT to learn by being impressed on, by being exposed to them, the game is going to keep getting more and more decided by the planes, and not the pilots at their controls.
I think at this point you get what I'm getting at.
The muppets trying to be like the BKs. ... I don't know where you pull this crap out of, but it doesn't smell good. The muppets aren't trying to be anyone. How you got the impression that there's such a behavior seems to be all your fabrication.. Whether projection or whatever, it says more about you than us.
And the squad doesn't have any major lead on the DFC's intention. You are trying real freakin hard to discredit the club.. That's low.
And when I mentionned Widewing, it was in analogy to that instance of you making a totally erroneous assumption from lack of information, the same way you're apparently doing when you say that hordes are not prevalent in the LW arenas. An accurate call.
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So many big words wait our we having an argument on who can use the best words, vindication connotation :huh
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Take your illiterate arse to dictionary.com if it's so hard talking to non-native english speakers.
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Take your illiterate arse to dictionary.com if it's so hard talking to non-native english speakers.
I was just joking, the reason for it being you sound like your trying to out debate him by using bigger words. But im sorry moot that my jokes arent up to your high standards :salute
screw the salute go ______ yourself ( fill the blank as you please )
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Delirium - Brings up number of members in my squad
Is it slander to bring up the number of the guys in your squad? No, it simply sheds light on your reference point.
Before you claim it is some vast conspiracy of secret groups to attack you, I am not in the DFC.
I'm not in the Muppets either, I recently left that group. Regardless of how you feel about that squad and their beliefs, I feel they do more to encourage competitive gameplay than any of the 'mega squads do'.
I have an idea, what about an exchange program? Furball squads trade a guy with one of the toolshedder squads for a month to allow both sides to see their point of view. I think it would be great, would make for a good time.
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Is it slander to bring up the number of the guys in your squad? No, it simply sheds light on your reference point.
Before you claim it is some vast conspiracy of secret groups to attack you, I am not in the DFC.
I'm not in the Muppets either, I recently left that group. Regardless of how you feel about that squad and their beliefs, I feel they do more to encourage competitive gameplay than any of the 'mega squads do'.
I have an idea, what about an exchange program? Furball squads trade a guy with one of the toolshedder squads for a month to allow both sides to see their point of view. I think it would be great, would make for a good time.
You might be getting at something, could you handle my sqauddies belligerent conversations on a saturday nigt after they been drinking bottles of Jack and downing cases of Beer? :D :salute
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I was just joking, the reason for it being you sound like your trying to out debate him by using bigger words. But im sorry moot that my jokes arent up to your high standards :salute
screw the salute go ______ yourself ( fill the blank as you please )
Bye
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I have a good handle on english here. I laugh at calling it vindication because of its connotations. Would you really use that word in reality? When you use a word in any language, it's common to choose one that doesn't leave room for error, that's not ambiguous or otherwise vague in conveying what you really, precisely mean.. Vindicated implies the rest of its definition, which is definitely comical in this argument. That's semantics.Dude..,yes its a common phrase used by folks all the time. Sorry. my mom grew up in the British school system and I use the term often...but once again you are getting off topic and so am i...
Let's just get to the point. The screenshot and movie wasn't set up. It just happens to be a nearly perfect illustration of what happens every evening we get together and fly against the hordes. I have one from that same night where a group of players are literally flying their CV planes like drones on ballistic missile trajectories aimed at the airfield strat targets. Flying behind them, shooting at them, flying next to and nearly on their 12 as they were flaming did nothing to shake them out of that win the war turpor. That wasn't set up either. Maybe you're a bit paranoid here. The hordes are definitely not something anyone who's played any amount of time in the LW arenas in the last couple of years to question whether they actually happen. They happen, and they happen often. Just off the top of my head here.. Look up some of Wotan's posts. He noted it too, and that's back in ~2002. You could easily get the same assessment from Fariz. Or Fester. Newsflash (to use your terminology) Hordes occurrred back in AW...the only thing that is different is arena size so the hordes are proportionally larger. If your goal is to do away with hordes.....best of luck....by the way there were pickers, runners, milkrunners, scorepotatoes, vulchers and base takers as well
"Guppy won your respect". Again, are you saying you would argue against someone not on the merit of their arguments but on how much you liked or disliked them? Again.. this is your idea of not being biased? Guppy and i argued plenty...we also pm'd plenty...and we ended up as friends...he also never stoooped to Scotch's level and im sure that helped. AND seriously Moot you get into every post I'm in...I could care less who you are but you seem preoccuppied with me so I try to respond politely. Your point of view is so uninteresting to me I never respond to a post you make. No offense dude but YOUR the one with the wierd bias here.
And then you try and bring my being in the DFC into this. Now that ticks me off. Let me put it this way.. If a cop is having a nice damn beer at the bar, and you start rattling his cage and trying to poke at the uniform he isn't even wearing at the time.. Do you expect him to take you seriously? Not to think he's got someone trying hard to be a pr**k in front of him? So you see DFC as cops... :lol :rofl :aok perfect!
That said - The DFC agenda is to do what it can to improve the quality of gameplay. Now we've gone over this before, but let me re-iterate it for you once again. The point of the game is air combat. Air combat is a martial art. What belt are you? :rolleyes: It's just a simulation of the real thing, but the dynamics are the same, no matter how fake the pixels are in that make-believe dimension. You cannot seriously combat efficiently without considering both tactics and strategy. The whole furball/win-the-war dichotomy is bogus. The two are sides of the same coin. Strategy and tactics work hand in hand. One of the things the DFC would like to do is enrich the gameplay quality by impressing on all players the value in learning proper BFM, ACM, general tactical rules of thumbs, strategic possibilities, etc. All the elements that will fill their toolbox with more means to reach whatever their ends are, not the least of which is having fun.
Why would these starchy formal academic sounding disciplines tantamount to having fun? Because they give the players more chances of success. They allow players to get into more fights, rather than sit out anything mildly difficult. They will get the players to spread out for more challenging fights than just piling up on one low con while 10 more are coming with altitude, because they figure it might be the only kill they're going to get out of the sortie, since it's really not in their hands that the outcome of the fight rests, but in whatever the initial relative handicaps (altitude, speed, position, numbers, plane types, etc) are at T=0. IOW, without the skills that the players will WANT to learn by being impressed on, by being exposed to them, the game is going to keep getting more and more decided by the planes, and not the pilots at their controls.
I think at this point you get what I'm getting at.Dude, relax, breathe, I said I support the DFC despite some of its members...
The muppets trying to be like the BKs. ... I don't know where you pull this crap out of, but it doesn't smell good. The muppets aren't trying to be anyone. How you got the impression that there's such a behavior seems to be all your fabrication.. Whether projection or whatever, it says more about you than us.
And the squad doesn't have any major lead on the DFC's intention. You are trying real freakin hard to discredit the club.. That's low.Dude put back on your tinfoil hat :noid
And when I mentionned Widewing, it was in analogy to that instance of you making a totally erroneous assumption from lack of information,no...widewing insulted my squad...he and I addressed this....the fact tha I have never runinto him or knowingly fought him is fact not an erroneous assumption. The only possible erroneous assumption was that when he insulted my squad I assumed he was a jerk. Some folks i like have told me he is a decent guy...so i may be wrong...i will let time sort that out the same way you're apparently doing when you say that hordes are not prevalent in the LW arenas. An accurate call.Once again i ask you to show me where i made this statement? You are soooo blinded by this falc obsession you still don't understand what my post was about
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Well if nothing else, the film by Scotch, along with one by Soulyss made it clear to me that folks were ruining my 38G so I was forced to get back in it and wreck it myself tonite. It's just not right to have CorkyJr getting smashed up by everyone else and not me. I do want to know which of you bastages let the air out of the tires however? And who stole the armor plate? I need that!
It was a good time. I even killed a couple bad guys too. :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Hits1.jpg)
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See, this is why I didn't buy your token "we're really parallel here", or your fake salute. "Vindicated"? :lol You just don't get it, and yet (either disingenuously or because it really does escape you) you'll jump at the first opportunity to pretend you've got the high ground.. You're after the last word, not getting to the truth. I don't have that problem, i cant relate to that.?? Agendas? You mean playing russian roulette is an agenda? :lol You're the guy at the head of a mega squad, and we're the guys in a motley crew of random furballers who'll switch to wherever the fight is, and you're saying we have an agenda? We can't even fly formation in scenarios, nevermind in the MA, and you're saying we have agendas? :rofl That's not the point.. One 38G gets totally swarmed.. It's just one instance of the dozens or hundreds that happen all over AH, all day. Where's your pigeon holing Guppy35 (and BaldEagl, Nilsen, and dozens/hundreds of other players) along with Scotch? It's nowhere because you're after Scotch here, the messenger, not the damn truth of how ridiculously lame the path of least resistance gameplay is. You're letting your dislike for Scotch get in the way of objective argument. And you call others biased and say they've got agendas.
"Vindicated" LOL Did we just step on the set of Spartacus or Gladiator or something?
:salute To you guys. I've always found this blind "Nationalism" in AHII kind of ridiculous to begin with.
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<-- Wont even bother quoting anything or explaining my viewpoint.
Falcon, youre a dweeb. :aok
(http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbimage/50340790/Ankle_Support.jpg)
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Falconwing, I'm just curious... Do you ever impress on your squaddies the importance of good SA?
I ask this because you often like to throw the "You have bad SA" argument in people's faces for getting ganged, so I assume you have a good grasp on the topic.
Wouldn't you agree that blowing your alt and E to all dogpile a low con, when several other high cons are either nearby or enroute, is a bad decision brought about by poor SA?
Wouldn't you agree that, when trying to take a base, and deep in enemy territory, (with your rate of attrition thus much higher, and rate of reinforcement much lower than the enemy's) it is undesireable to accept 50/50 odds with a HO shot? Wouldn't that also betray a lack of SA?
I'm just trying to look at things from a different perspective here as opposed to the furballers... But wouldn't a base-taker need good SA just as badly? Don't many of their actions betray a real lack of it?
I don't mean to insinuate that your squad does this...
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Looks like you have them right where you want them Scotch. :aok
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Moot I dont think you grasp what certain words mean...you have said before in posts English is not your native language so I truly understand..to further our discussion...
Parallel: when i say we are talking parallel I DON'T mean we are in agreement...I mean our thoughts/beliefs are NOT intersecting (crossing paths)...i.e. you don't get what I am trying to say....
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i would interpret your statement of you and moot ""thinking parallel"" to mean that you both are thinking along the same lines.
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So many big words wait our we having an argument on who can use the best words, vindication connotation :huh
could this please be translated?
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could this please be translated?
Me fail English? That unpossible!
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Wouldn't you agree that blowing your alt and E to all dogpile a low con, when several other high cons are either nearby or enroute, is a bad decision brought about by poor SA?
I agree. For every friendly in addition to a pair on a bandit, the SA mistakes of the attackers grow greater than that of the victim. At worst, it puts all of those twit-gangers in a poor position to meet the next wave of higher bandits. This dynamic is partly responsible for good furballs evolving into vulch-fests.
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I guess the Muppets are trying to be like the BKs of old without the skill level, respect or sense of humor...but as the squad with the most members in DFC they seem to think they have a leg to stand on when it comes to leadership...it is a shame for the concept of the DFC imho.
Dude.. you simply have no idea what you're talking about on any level.. Muppets attempting to emulate? Clueless.. Muppets trying to lead? Clearly you are clueless..
What is the BK statement suppose to do anyway? As if you yourself will ever reach a level beyond the horde..
You know jack about the workings of my squad let alone the DFC.. Leave it out of your ridiculous drivel.. It has no place..
You wanna do something strong? Join the Squad challenge and bring your best sticks. You'll need them.
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Well if nothing else, the film by Scotch, along with one by Soulyss made it clear to me that folks were ruining my 38G so I was forced to get back in it and wreck it myself tonite. It's just not right to have CorkyJr getting smashed up by everyone else and not me. I do want to know which of you bastages let the air out of the tires however? And who stole the armor plate? I need that!
It was a good time. I even killed a couple bad guys too. :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Hits1.jpg)
Hey dan..welcome back...
Vudak I'll send you via email...this thread is way off topic to begin with :t
Mazz - Yayyy I win! :devil
Kappa - Your my biggest fish thus far....at only 2000 posts you are harder to snag!!!
Sorry guys...yesterday was the bored day off with snow...gotta work now....I guess I'll somehow continue to have an AWESOME time in the MA with AWESOME peeps and lots of laughs....
Sometimes I just like to "hang out" with the small percentage that are miserable or needing an "atta boy" to keep playing...thank goodness these boards exist! Keeps my civic sense appeased :lol :rofl
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I upped a base.....there were a dozen or so GV's coming in, and then I saw about a dozen cons coming in....Every single one attempted a HO, except a yak. They hit the field and then started upping from a cv...literally avoided every attempt to have a good fight until....by suicide saturation...they finally got the hangars and the field was shut down and gv's took over. I upped a field over, and was happy that maybe a good fight would happen between the bases.....NOT. Every one of them HO'd and dove towards my base and dropped eggs and augered or killed by ack. The stream of cons and their suicide saturation eventually got the hangars, and shut down the field.
Now..... Muppets disagree with this type of gameplay...we believe it is bad for the game. It will not be given a green light...or a free pass....it will be fought on all levels. :aok
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Mazz - Yayyy I win! :devil
Kappa - Your my biggest fish thus far....at only 2000 posts you are harder to snag!!!
Sorry guys...yesterday was the bored day off with snow...gotta work now....I guess I'll somehow continue to have an AWESOME time in the MA with AWESOME peeps and lots of laughs....
And with that we come full circle. The last bastion of the clueless is a three step process:
1.) Claim victory when someone else decides you arent even worth addressing.
2.) Claim that your entire tirade was a carefully planned fishing expedition.
3.) Claim ancillary duty obligating your exit from the discussion so as to avoid further instances requiring the explanation of your position.
Nice. You dont disappoint. :aok
(At this moment, you are considering "thanking" me for my last line as a retort, arent you? I know you are you silly goose! Go ahead and type it! "Thanks, Mazz. Glad I could help!")
:)
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Well lets leave it at that...you have cleverly proved my point and thank you very much :aok According to YOU...scotch purposefully gets ganged by flying into situations where it is bound to occur and then posts screenies to show how bad gameplay has deteriorated. By your own admission you hover at high alt around these fights for amusement and don't dive in to help. Im assuming when you say "Scotch & co" you mean others in your squad strive for the same thing. Cool...I'll leave a 20 dollar bill on the sidewalk and say how bad society is when someone picks it up and keeps it.... :lol
Thanks for explaining from an insider's vantage how this occurs. I'm sure this behavior builds credibility and doesn't suggest personal agendas...
Delirium...if i had higher alt squaddies i probably wouldn't dive in front of 6-9 enemy cons and blow my e...but that just me (actually from watching you fly..you wouldn't either...you're cleverer than that). However if i did say "What the hell?" and dove in and died I wouldn't post screenies ridiculing those who killed me and suggest it was somehow their fault for the situation I put myself in.
I feel quite vindicated now...thanks :salute
Make no mistake there isn't a muppet that won't help a squad mate who asks for help .
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Hey dan..welcome back...
Vudak I'll send you via email...this thread is way off topic to begin with :t
Mazz - Yayyy I win! :devil
Kappa - Your my biggest fish thus far....at only 2000 posts you are harder to snag!!!
Sorry guys...yesterday was the bored day off with snow...gotta work now....I guess I'll somehow continue to have an AWESOME time in the MA with AWESOME peeps and lots of laughs....
Sometimes I just like to "hang out" with the small percentage that are miserable or needing an "atta boy" to keep playing...thank goodness these boards exist! Keeps my civic sense appeased :lol :rofl
see rule 6
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(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt337/the_fianna/trolls.png?t=1236101305)
Another sad example of Aces High trash.
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I'm not replying in this one again unless the discussion gets back to arguing the facts instead of childish name calling.
Right, so you're just not interested in arguing the facts. You want to spin this into a peanut gallery food fight,another pissing match
no matter what.
I have no falc obsession. I actually had to read your post twice to make sure I didn't misread that tiny red text. So you really are paranoid like I said.
The DFC as cops never crossed my mind. More made up BS with your name on it.
That an issue has been around a long time doesn't mean it's insoluble. Meaning hordes.
I don't get into everyone of your posts. Another attempt at dodging the arguments by discrediting with mischaracterization. Yep, that's how much dancing around the points you're doing. Just like in previous threads. Another made up red herring. Whether you care about what I think or not, yet more red herring.. You cherry pick who you support based on whether they support or have befriended you, not whether they're right. That's a pretty textbook definition of bias
That you "support" the dfc.. I smell hypocrisy. Just another token "salute" to mute the disagreements you're unwilling to resolve. You support the DFC? Then quit spinning these arguments into trash talk. Quit dodging the plain factual arguments with cop-outs like "you just have falcon envy" or falcon obsession or whatever other BS.
The intent in Scotch's opening post is pointing out how ludicrous the ganging regularly gets in the LW MA. Whether he window dressed that with some smack talk or (intentionally or not) goes off on some trash talking tangent is beside the point.. Just bait for trash talk. You bit hard on that bait and ignored the meaningful arguments. It's a shame he did, but it changes nothing WRT the hording and ganging topic.
if i did say "What the hell?" and dove in and died I wouldn't post screenies ridiculing those who killed me and suggest it was somehow their fault for the situation I put myself in.
Not how it happened. The point wasn't to ridicule those people in particular. He doesn't say it's their fault that he was in that situation. He didn't get into that situation because "he said what the hell and dove in and died in ridiculously bad odds". But that's how you're spinning it. So it's exactly like I said, you're just finding whatever ridiculous suit to disguise Scotch's post in and trolling it out as if that were what he said and meant. Only he's got a lot less patience for that than I do.
By your own admission you hover at high alt around these fights for amusement and don't dive in to help.
Wrong, not characteristic of what I do. But it's convenient to pretend it is so you can cop-out of the real arguments.
If one views this film one quickly realizes there isn't an accident or hordes that are lurking around him that cause these "gangbang" screenshots...its the result of his concious decisions in flight to put himself there...and take screenshots....and post them with comments like 'ridiculous"....hmmm
Pure crap. The hordes do happen by conscious decisions on the part of players. They don't just happen by sheer cosmic coincidence. Players do steal kills. They do miss out on the breadth and depth of what is in fact a martial art.. I'm no gung ho ninja. I just recognize the mechanics of it, the same way I recognize mechanics of one discipline in another totally unrelated one. That's called insight and I don't see what's so taboo about pointing it out when you see it.. Unless you're all for obscurantism and shy away from bringing up novelties if it means risking being a black sheep for it for a while.
The players do go for the path of least resistence. They will pile up on cons already more than neutralized by lopsided odds and will shoot over each others shoulders instead of taking 30 seconds to go tangle with the unengaged cons that bit further. You don't have to jump head first into 5:1 odds like in Scotch's film above for ganging to happen. The film he posted just happens to be a comically extreme example.
I could point out point by point how your posts are pretty much wrong on everything, but that's tedious because you'll just pretend to look the other way, and beside the real point here: The hording and useless gang banging, and general low quality gameplay.
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see rule 6
Oops. Didn't realize that violated a rule. Here's an edited version.
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt337/the_fianna/pgtrolls.png?t=1236108484)
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THIS IS GETTING NUTS NOW.
all of this from a guy simply posting about having had some fun. and he was having fun posting the original stuff too.
watch and listen to the film. they were laughing. they seemed to think it was a riot.
:salute to them for having fun
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Fianna is gonna get Skuzzy-slapped me thinks ... :confused:
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Please, stop posting in this thread.
Falconwing, I'm asking you to walk away from this.
Muppets, I'm asking you to do the same thing.
This has spilled out of control and has now resulted in someone "testing Skuzzy's patience."
STOP POSTING.
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Wow :rofl falc put a fork in you, your done.
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Please, stop posting in this thread.
Falconwing, I'm asking you to walk away from this.
Okay :aok
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OK on a lighter note
WTG Scotch, looks like you have them surrounded
<S>
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Tsk Tsk Tsk