Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: gospel on January 02, 2001, 12:20:00 PM
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Hi all!
I don't want to cause a big stir, or a flame war, or any of that! But .... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I was just wondering, and thought perhaps some of you aviation historians could help with this.
I like the hellcat, it can really absorb some damage, but I was expecting it to be faster that it is. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Does it have the same engine as a f4U and the P47 or ? (2000 hp) If so, why is it slower than both of these planes?
Is it relatively slow because it is so well armored (heavy), or?
Thanks in advance for the info!
gospel
332nd flying mongrels
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While I can't give you the data, I expected it to be slow in top speed. At a guess I would say it would be a combination of the induction charging system, propeller, and drag that make it slower, but I'll let those with the data fill in the blanks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
However, if you are flying the Kitty, use it's DIVE. With an E advantage the kitty will turn with a spit and dive with an F4U. It will out accellerate many "faster" planes, especially in a dive and catch them. In the long term they will out run you, but if they try to dive away many times you can deliver a .50 cal enema before they can get out of guns range.
The Kitty's dive is it's best attribute IMHO. I've killed quite a few surprised Hog drivers in it. <G>
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-02-2001).]
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The Hellcat is larger than a P-47, it has a wing area greater than even the P-38. It has a lot of drag. But even still, it's a 400 mph airplane (396 mph) at altitude. Some tests even put it just past 400. I've seen as high as 409 mph.
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Gospel,
I am not speaking for the AH Hellkitty. This info is from test flight data.
The F6F-5 was a 400MPH bird contrary to popular belief. Grumman engineers discovered an error in the pitot tube config on the bird in approx. 1944/45. You can verify this from fligh test results vrs the A6M5 Zero, F4U and FW190. The top speed of the F6F-5 at sea level was about 335MPH and it maxed at about 400MPH at 25,000FT. The reason it was slower than the F4U was that it had higher drag as well as a different air induction system at lower altitudes.
In the test against the A6M5 Zero it reached a max speed of 409MPH. Against the FW190A5 it reached a speed of 391MPH.
It's perfromance curve is very similer to the NIK2 except it is faster above 20K. Most reference material on the F6F-5 however shows a top speed of aprox 375MPH. What the AH model will show is a mystery however. I know that HT/Pyro are aware of the performance of the Hellcat however.
http://members.home.net/markw4/FW190_F4U.html (http://members.home.net/markw4/FW190_F4U.html)
Here is the F4U,F6F-FW190A-5 test
Later
F4UDOA
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most top speeds ive seen is 380 mph @ 23k.
whels
Originally posted by gospel:
Hi all!
I don't want to cause a big stir, or a flame war, or any of that! But .... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I was just wondering, and thought perhaps some of you aviation historians could help with this.
I like the hellcat, it can really absorb some damage, but I was expecting it to be faster that it is. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Does it have the same engine as a f4U and the P47 or ? (2000 hp) If so, why is it slower than both of these planes?
Is it relatively slow because it is so well armored (heavy), or?
Thanks in advance for the info!
gospel
332nd flying mongrels
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whels:
I believe that what F4UDOA was saying is that the pitot tube problem caused the instruments to display a speed equivalent to 380 when the actual speed was around 400.
Hooligan
[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 01-02-2001).]
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Has anyone done any testing on the AH f6f yet?
The only thing I would like to know about is it's turning capability at speeds less than 200 IAS. It wants to drop a wing on me, and it comes really fast, with out warning. I just "thought" it was a notorious dogfighter and had really good low speed characteristics.
What does the guru's think?
ammo
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Data I have for f6f-3 303 mph at SL, 376 at 23,400ft
Ripped a wing off an f6f last night... not seen any mention of this occuring in RL. Though I do see a note not to exceed 440mph IAS in the F6F below 10k ft
gonna have to test...
AKskurj
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Ohh btw... did the Navy and grumman trust the guages in the aircraft that much?
I would think for speed tests, and Navy evaluation testing etc, some ground timing system etc would be used...
AKskurj
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Wow!
Thanks for all the prompt responses! Sure beats having to look up all the info myself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .
The hellcat was bigger than a p47? I thought the P47 was the largest WWII fighter.
Thanks for the performance testing info F4UDOA! I did some speed testing on the F4u and the hellcat, and they are perty close to those speeds.
There was an article recently in on of the historic aircraft mag's about a Grumman test pilots who helped test the wildcat. He mentioned the pitot tube problem too.
Ammo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The mongrels did some Niki vs hellcat fights last friday for our squad training night. The niki can out turn the hellcat, and appears to be faster in the level. However (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) in our two sorties, the hellcats won the first 9 kills to one, and the second 6 kills to 3! That ability to flip over and dive away, plus being able to actually take a few cannon hits really makes a difference (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thanks again for all the info.
S!
gospel
332nd flying mongrels
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Gospel you ever seen a Hellcat in person? Big bellybutton plane!!! Not quite as heavy as the Jug but just as long and even bigger wing span.
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No, I've not seen a hellcat. I would have thought it would be a smaller plane to better fit on an aircraft carrier (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .
I remember my first trip to the local aviation museum, after I'd been flying warbirds for a couple of years. I had never seen a vintage aircraft upclose before. It was amazing to me to see the size difference between the planes that I saw! There is a big difference in size between the spit or 109 and the p51 and Fu4. You really cannot get an appreciation for the size of the fighters while flying these sims (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .
Come to think of it, they did have a wildcat there. It was much bigger than I would of thought. I pictured it to be a short little fat plane, but it was so big I did not recognise it at first (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .
gospel
332nd flying mongrels
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So true man. For me it really sunk in at the Chino Planes of Fame airshow. When you see a P-47D and a P-38 and F6F and F4U... then a Zeke and a P-63 and a Yak-3 which look positively tiny by comparison. Even more amazing was to see the 38 and the 63 flying formation with an F-15E. The Eagle is a frikking monster by comparison!!!
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Even smaller as AH planes go, the La5 has become my ride of choice at this point. Small and fast with decent guns and a radial which can take damage. Small targets are hard to hit. Couldn't imagine an La5 next to a Hellcat.
fscott
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You really need to the the kitty in perspective to realize its size, eh? I remember looking at photos and thiniking to myself, "gee that's a stubby little thing." Then I turn the page of the book I happen to be reading. "Length: 33 feet [~] Span: 42 Feet.
WOW!
As far as speed... for some reason, the Hellcat seems to be slower at 15k than 10k. I haven't tried it higher than that, because I don't know if it has a supercharger or not. Still more than high enough for the dive o' doom! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) With the Hellcat I think I've found my other favorite ride. What a plane!
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Originally posted by ispar:
As far as speed... for some reason, the Hellcat seems to be slower at 15k than 10k. I haven't tried it higher than that, because I don't know if it has a supercharger or not. Still more than high enough for the dive o' doom! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) With the Hellcat I think I've found my other favorite ride. What a plane!
It has a two-speed supercharger that like most others, switchs between 14 and 19k resulting in a large power loss until the second stage kicks in.
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I agree Ispar, the Kitty is a sweet little bird. It's like a furballin' version of my Jug. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It's my #2 ride as well. The most Jug-like plane I can fly from the CV. <G>
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Agree funked & gospel. First time I walked up to a real F4U my jaw dropped, & I stood there with a dazed expression for at least 5 min.
Man that thing is HUGE!
TBM I saw a year ago seemed incredibly big also!
Sim's just don't give you much of a sense of scale of the plane your flying.
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Hellcat is a great plane. It is my favorite ride in 1.06. I do fairly well, which surprises me because I don't really know the flight characteristics of the plane. I just fly it. Anyone care to summarize the flight characteristics so I'll know?
I'm surprised to hear it is as large as a P47. It seems to handle far better than a jug. It almost feels like a spit, but with less rate of turn and more roll rate. With some speed, I feel comfortable mixing it up with just about anything. Just don't try to outrun a pony or hog.
The guns are nice. For some reason, I find the hellcat guns more lethal than the pony, even though they have the same configuration. Is there some subtle design difference that would account for that? Perhaps the hellcat is just a more stable firing platform because of it's size.
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Very good information F4UDOA. I remember the 1st time I realized how big the F6F was when I was watching some old movie and a support vehicle pulled up buy it. I figured you could hide a jeep in the the dang thing.
I would have also thought that ground timing was used for the tests. On the other had they mentioned that the top speeds of the planes were probably not reached due to the time restriction of the run to 2 minutes. Also the general content of this report would tell me that the test may have just been a quick comparison test to get some relative data and not a comprehensive study. They found out what they needed to know about the combat tactics needed to confront a 190 and called it good. I might add all those tactics work on here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) This tells me again that AH may not have it perfect but the relative performances of the planes as compared to each other on the game is close enough to work with.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-11-2001).]
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Even more amazing was to see the 38 and the 63 flying formation with an F-15E. The Eagle is a frikking monster by comparison!!!
(http://www.houseblend.net/edwards/chino1.jpg)
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It is clearly seen in the picture posted above, that after a 5 mile drag race at 5,000 ft using full throttle on all planes, the P-38L is clearly ahead of the F-15 thus proving it was the fastest production plane during ww 2, hehehe
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If you look closely, the F-15 has speed brakes deployed, a modified reverse thruster at near full thottle (notice how there's no heat distorition behind the plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) and has the cockpit open with a very *large* bra trying to keep the plane level with the castrated air show planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)