Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on March 03, 2009, 10:40:17 AM
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Here's my question:
If the lead bomber in a drone formation is attacked first, sustains fatal damage and rides his plane to the ground, causing his two drones to warp all over and then pop, do those two drones count as destroyed bombers in the logs if they haven't sustained a scratch?
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Depends. We count kills and maneuver kills. So if those two drones pop and an enemy is near enough to get a maneuver kill credit yes. If they pop and nobody gets a maneuver kill credit then no. I am not even sure if they would register in the raw logs in the case of them popping but no credit awarded do to damage or a maneuver kill.
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I've never received a maneuver kill from popping drones. The only time I get a kill when they pop is if I've already pinged them.
I am not even sure if they would register in the raw logs in the case of them popping but no credit awarded do to damage or a maneuver kill.
Is there a way to fix that? It seems like the way things are now, if a bomber pilot suicides his formation into a target area, and all 3 of his planes get taken out by AAA, it only counts as 1 bomber lost.
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I've never received a maneuver kill from popping drones. The only time I get a kill when they pop is if I've already pinged them.
Is there a way to fix that? It seems like the way things are now, if a bomber pilot suicides his formation into a target area, and all 3 of his planes get taken out by AAA, it only counts as 1 bomber lost.
Not by the CM team. That would be a programming change.
Drones are not tracked very well in the logs.
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Not by the CM team. That would be a programming change.
Drones are not tracked very well in the logs.
When I read the logs, if the bomber pilot only loses his drones, those losses do not show for his stats (only for the person who killed the drones). If the CM's assumed that for every time a bomber pilot is shot down it was actually 3 aircraft that were lost, that would fill the gaps.
Otherwise we have a huge gaping hole in scoring these events.
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When I read the logs, if the bomber pilot only loses his drones, those losses do not show for his stats (only for the person who killed the drones). If the CM's assumed that for every time a bomber pilot is shot down it was actually 3 aircraft that were lost, that would fill the gaps.
Otherwise we have a huge gaping hole in scoring these events.
You can't make that assumption, though.
You have no idea if a person launches 1 or 3 aircraft.
If a person is shot down and then shows as having landed successfully later, you can make that assumption ( at least one of the drones was shot down ).
If a plane is shot down after the person doing the damage is killed, it doesn't show as a kill in the logs either.
With the data available, today, the best is done with a reasonable amount of effort.
You might be able to get a little more accurate with the actual figures, but the amount of work tracking 100 - 200 bomber pilots is freakin' immense.
Been there.. tried that.
You don't want to make any VOLUNTEER go through that.
Trust me.
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You can't make that assumption, though.
You have no idea if a person launches 1 or 3 aircraft.
I've never seen formations available and not used, have you? It would be easy enough to assume that drones were used, and if not, let the CMs know so they can take account of it.
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I've never seen formations available and not used, have you? It would be easy enough to assume that drones were used, and if not, let the CMs know so they can take account of it.
Many times, actually. 'course.. been doing these for 7 years, too.
And you can't assume that because formations are enabled, everybody uses them.
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Many times, actually. 'course.. been doing these for 7 years, too.
And you can't assume that because formations are enabled, everybody uses them.
Yes, you can assume it provided that you simply notify the CM's for those few times that drones are not used. ;)
In just three minutes I was able to figure out that there were at least 6 more B-25C's lost than the 45 that were recorded as kills in Frame 3. Is that so hard? That's worth 90 points. I was generous and ignored any B-25Cs that ditched; I assumed that their drones were not destroyed. I'm sure something similar happened with the Ki-67s.
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Edit: So, besides their warping, drones cannot be scored effectively for an event like FSO. Maybe they should be disabled for FSO... :uhoh
Another edit: I count the same for the Ki-67s, at least 6 more lost than the number of recorded kills.
Question: If losing a drone in the main arena counts toward bomber score, why doesn't it show in the logs?
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Yes, you can assume it provided that you simply notify the CM's for those few times that drones are not used. ;)
In just three minutes I was able to figure out that there were at least 6 more B-25C's lost than the 45 that were recorded as kills in Frame 3. Is that so hard? That's worth 90 points. I was generous and ignored any B-25Cs that ditched; I assumed that their drones were not destroyed. I'm sure something similar happened with the Ki-67s.
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Edit: So, besides their warping, drones cannot be scored effectively for an event like FSO. Maybe they should be disabled for FSO... :uhoh
Are you sure there weren't 7? 8? 9 more? The point is.. where do you stop and how far are you willing to dig?
You cannot cover every contigency with the tools available. So.. yes, it was 3 minutes for you.. but that's in addition to how many other minutes for the person actually doing the scoring.
As far as enabling formations.. if you don't have them, people won't fly them. By themselves they are too vulnerable. We have over 500 per event with the balance we have.
If you shoot down a bomber, you get the kill and the points. If you damage a bomber and it crashes, you get the kill and the points. If you die before they register as being shot down, you don't get the points.
If you want the points.. and Deserve the points.. shoot them down.
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We didn't have drones in Warbirds and people stepped up to fly bombers in S3. The bomber drone exists to make the lone bomber effective in the main arena. It is gratuitous in an event like FSO where the protection of a formation is provided by the players themselves.
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We didn't have drones in Warbirds and people stepped up to fly bombers in S3. The bomber drone is to make the bomber effective in the main arena. It is gratuitous in an event like FSO where the protection of a formation is provided by the players themselves.
I cant speak for Warbirds. Never flew it.
Besides.. you also counted the 'same' KI-67 discrepancy as B25s not counted in the scores.. As long as formations are used on both sides, it will probably be a statistical wash.
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What we have works just fine, in my opinion, thank you.
:aok
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I don't see this as a big issue. For a couple of reasons. First off the attackers are going to definitely try to take out all the bombers. The chance of the 2 drones not taking any damage while the lead (piloted) bomber goes down is not high. Second, as soon as he can the pilot is going to try to switch to another plane in his formation which is why the attackers will continue to attack his planes. They can't assume that the other two drones will pop .. and there is a chance the first plane will and the pilot will be able to switch to the other planes. So the attacker needs to make sure the others are taken care of to.
Why? Well not only for points but to also deny the bombers the ability or possibility to use the bombs in the drones.
Same thing goes for the bomber pilot. He should not passively ride his plane down but should switch as soon as possible or allowed by the game mechanics / code. Why because fine he lost one plane and its bomb load but he might be able to salvage the other two and still continue to hit target. Especially if his attackers decided he was going to be dead anyway and left him alone.
A lot of things in the game are judgement calls. If you see a bomber on fire but it is within 1 sector from target you better finish it off. Because the bomber still has a chance to get to target and get bombs off before exploding or having a catastrophic failure. A bomber 3 sectors out you pretty much can assume won't make it to target and you can concentrate on something else.
So can the scenario happen? Yes. Does it have a high probability of happening, I would say no.
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Oh, and remember there are two different types of logs. There are the logs that are posted on the AHevents.org and their are the raw logs provided to us by HTC. The raw logs have a bit more detail / options CMs can use.
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Thank you for those considerations, Ghostdancer.
I think you're a little optimistic about how many people switch to their undamaged drones; a lot of people don't even know the keyboard command for that. If the pilot does choose to ride his plane down, his drones warp all over and are a major collision hazard to anyone trying to attack them or even just flying in their vicinity. I have witnessed this effect in nearly every FSO frame where bombers have been present, friendly or enemy.
For my part, I always attack the drones first to avoid the above scenario. Right drone, then left, then lead.
Oh, and remember there are two different types of logs. There are the logs that are posted on the AHevents.org and their are the raw logs provided to us by HTC. The raw logs have a bit more detail / options CMs can use.
My guess is that if lost drones can be counted for main arena score, it wouldn't be difficult to include them for special events. Isn't this a matter of selecting which pieces of information from the raw logs get ported over to the event logs?
Thank you.
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When I score an event, the only credited "kills" are those actual and maneuver kills. If you crash, ditch, or anything else that does not give a kill to another player, it is not scored as a kill. I use the raw logs to score the events now exclusively. I can tell you whether or not a person landed all of his drones, but unless someone else got credited with a kill, I cannot tell you whether or not those drones he didn't land crashed, ditched, etc.; therefore, I do not credit them as kills for the oposing side.
We have tried scoring methods, in the past, that awarded folks that land safely. This was done in an attempt to reward life-like behavior and reduce the "gamey" techniques sometimes used with, for example, Kates when second lives are available. The results of these scoring techniques were inconclusive and created a huge burden on the CM scoring the event. I can tell you that tracking and awarding those points added at least an hour to an already 2-3 hour task for me. Ultimately, I decided it wasn't a cost effective method.
As far as the drone mechanics in-game--there's nothing we can do to change them. Formations in general are a valuable tool for the Admin CM, but certain setups allow us to turn them off if desired. Given that most bombers are pretty much nothing but flying targets with very little defensive capability, I enable formations in most of my setups, to ensure that those assigned bombers aren't getting clobbered early, and spending most of the Frame sitting in the tower listening to their buddies over voice. Early frame 1 I collided with some drones after popping the lead aircraft and it ended my night, so I can empathize with what you're saying.
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We have tried scoring methods, in the past, that awarded folks that land safely. This was done in an attempt to reward life-like behavior and reduce the "gamey" techniques sometimes used with, for example, Kates when second lives are available. The results of these scoring techniques were inconclusive and created a huge burden on the CM scoring the event. I can tell you that tracking and awarding those points added at least an hour to an already 2-3 hour task for me. Ultimately, I decided it wasn't a cost effective method.
I used that method in the last Three FSOs I wrote. It was very difficult at first, but it became easier.
I hope you guys try to implement a system to reward pilots who land successfully.
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Hmmm, I will think on it. Since I use a couple excel and other programming methods to score things. Still usually takes me 2 to 3 hours to score things. Then takes me longer investigating possible issues (which is why score isn't out yet).
But will look into it.
Of course for bomber drones same problem can happen on landing. Pilot lands but how do I know his drones landed?
As for the rest I do the same as Stoney .. points are given for kills and maneuver kills. Anything else does not generate points. Although maybe possibly will think about a bonus pts be awarded for surviving the whole frame. Will think on that.