Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: qts on June 11, 2000, 02:36:00 AM
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This mid-late war plane was the biggest transport of the war, and could carry tanks. Methinks this might make things interesting: load up your Gigant with a tank or two, fly to near your target, land (ok, ditch), and exit in the tank. Can be used as a troop transport too.
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WOW, that would be interesting! I'm all for it. Maybe you could post a picture. I know of a giant german glider that could carry a tank, but is this aircraft powered by its own engines?
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8 of 'em if I recall correctly, and it used rocket boosters at takeoff.
Had some obvious flaws though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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AHHH ME WANT!!!
ME WANT ME WANT ME WANT ME WANT ME WANT
Drooooollll..... then I can really have some fun. This is a very good idea. There would be all types of things like transport squadrons popping up. This is something that no other game offers. If you could load another players tanks onto your ac and then fly them to the front line, land/ditch then let them off and fly home or pick them up again after there battle or something.
Would be very coooooolllll!
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Sounds cool,
The only drawback I can see is transporting tanks would mean A tanky trusting someone else with thier K/D ratio. If it was carrying several vehicles would you get several kill messages if you shot one down? If it forced a ditch or crash of the enemy who on board would get the kill?
Not critism's just questions (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
TTFN
snafu
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002336.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002336.html)
Check this out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/Pics/me323g_marder.jpg)
Only 10000 kg load (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) , no Pzkw...
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 06-11-2000).]
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Oh.....
Is there anything else that we can use for this idea?
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Well,
If you think about it, this would be something that no other game offered. It would be a major selling point. Which is very cool. If one of these transports got shot down then it would kill all the members of the transport yes, if it ditched, then the tankers would be able to get out of the aircraft. There would have to be a few other safeguards such as weapons disarmament and engine off and such so that when you ground stompers get into my hold you don't accidentally shoot of one of your big rounds while we are in flight. There I guess that it would all depend on the pilot. Maybe a ranking system should be introduced. So that people can see how good the pilot is and if he or she should trust them to fly or not. How many missions, successes, etc. If possible it should be focused on that one particular aircraft not the whole range. Because if like me you are a ground attack, bomber, transport pilot then you will get shot down and killed more than a fighter pilot or someone who is sitting above a target.
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Staga, does it REALLY matter whether the Gigant could carry a Panzer in real life?
Give it the capacity to carry 1 Panzer, or 2 M16's etc. Hell, the flight modelling doesnt have to be too fancy.... max climb rate of about 700 fpm, top speed 160mph, service ceiling 15000 feet.
Oh, and for fun, fit it with the RATO boosters ... mapped to WEP, duration 20 seconds, can only be activated on the ground. (I'm picturing a field wreathed in smoke and flame as 5 Me323's take off)
I've been arguing for the Me323 for weeks now, ever since ground vehicles made their way into AH.
It would, IMHO, open up whole new strategic possibilities if you could carry your armor to the battlefield, rather than the present, somewhat 'cheesy' alternative of having armour magically spawn 20 miles from the nearest friendly field, possibly bypassing enemy tanks on the way.
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
'feel the heat .......'
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According to the stats to the Me-321A-1 It's payload is 48,944 pounds, empty it weighed 26,896 pounds.
Configurations such as the following:
An 88mm Gun and it's tractor,
A self-propelled gun,
A Mark IV tank (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif),
or 200 troops (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
But that would require the 3 Me110 tow configuration or the 5 engined He-111z
If moving on to the Me-323, the most practical I guess, then there's quite an interesing defensive arangement of the 2 20mm guns, one in each wing turrent and up to 9 13mm 151 guns. And it would be easier to model due to not having to create the tow planes
It's so big it wouldn't be hard to shoot down
and methinks it would make quiet and interesting part of AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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I think that's a bit optimistic payload. The one I have, which I think also is a little optimistic is 35,030 lbs (15890kg).
[edit] Oh, hehe, didn't notice you were talking about the glider version.
Pzkpw IV ausf H is 55,115 lbs, and I don't think it would fit the opening.
I think we need to model a Hetzer (31,967 lbs). btw, Marder II shown is 24,251 lbs.
[This message has been edited by Manx (edited 06-11-2000).]
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Okay found the problem. The original contract that the LW signed for the prototype plans of both the Me-321 and the Junkers Ju-332 stated the list I made. Provisions for each of the following had to be included for the plane to be accepted :
44,090 lbs of normal cargo.
88mm guns and tractor
self-propelled gun
Pzkpw IV
around 200 troops and gear.
The Junkers company had some weird restrictions on their project that never let the Ju-332 flying wing ever really develope.
The Me-321 on the other hand was successful in meeting all the criteria with a normal payload of 48,944 pounds. BUT, it was capable of carry any of the 25ton Pzkpw IV tanks and the lighter Pzkpw III series within it's hold without any major or time consuming modifications. The purpose in the original design was for it to be capable for carrying medium tanks for an invasion of Britain.
Wish I would of seen this the first go round (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
There was problems with loading armor when it lacked the proper towing configuration...namely the 3 Me-110's in formation. When the He-111z came about, and the later 6 engine Me-323 version it succeded in what use it got on the Russian front, even being the enormous target it was.
I'm going to do some more diggain...I'm still skeptical of a Pzkpw IV fitting through the main doors.
- Jig
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The first Marder body was 2.2m in width and I think it remained the same on the Marder II correct? Where as the Pzkpw IV is 2.9m (as well as the III series) in width. From that photo of the Me-323 it looks like a snug fit for the Marder II, I wonder if the Pzkpw IV, about 3 feet wider, would make it through the clam shells? I know it bulges under the wing so it should have a problem fitting there.
But with the main deck sitting around 5 feet off the ground and struts at the widest point I don't see how, or any mention of loading through the sides. Perhaps they disassembled the nose to load them?
- Jig
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First answer is the easiest, have HTC make a Pz38t which is a light tank.(Marder was developed on pz38 chassis) One big problem 'tho "the malta turkey shoot" where fighters from Malta intercepted a formation of 30 gigant's trying to resupply the Afrika corps, 25 were shot down. Don't think the big boy will do so hot in our little uberdeadly world (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the Me321/323, and it'\d be cool to see.
But what kind of role can we give it?
It seems to be more the predecessor of a strategic airlifter than a tactical one. I mean, are you gonna be landing those marders on the front line? It's a slow, big target that would be fun in theory, but without a highly elaborate supply system in a "total war" environment, it would see very little use. Besides, it's huge. Can you imagine how many artist-hours it would take to model each of the gun positions?
(BTW, there were experimental "Waffenträger" and bomber versions of it. IIRC, the gunship wasn't popular because, although it carried A LOT of guns, it was a HUGE target that was easy to whack. And the bomber testbed had been strafed by marauding yankee planes, so when it took off with a single 17,000 kg bomb, it suffered massive structural failure.
)
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What about giving the ability to drop tanks from the air? AFAIK the russians have done this (obviously not with the crew inside, though)...
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PZVG, that "malta turkey shoot" consisted of German JU52s, not Gigants. An interesting side note about that is that B25s were used as fighters during this battle and shot down a few JU52s
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Well, my thoughts were along the lines of the player having a taste of both worlds - flying to the target, then launching himself in a tank.
Just as hangars take time to respawn, so should a Gigant.
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Perfect solution qts.. make the Gigant kind of a 'mobile field'.
Take off in the Gigant, fly to where you want to go, and once on the ground and stopped, spawn either a tank, halftrack or troop carrying vehicle, driven by the original pilot of the 323.
With radar blindness below 500 feet, I think we'd see a lot of use of the 323. How about a long range, below radar formation attack on an enemy's city? Suddenly deliver a bunch of armor behind enemy lines to cause all kinds of disruption?
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Pz38 isn't a bad idea at all. With that tank body is a HORDE of variants (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Of course there's the tank destroyer versions such as the Marder, then there's the ones that sport close support guns, the original Flakpanzer with a 20mm gun, and the improvised version with the 37mm gun. And of course the Flamethrower version (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The disembarkment of whatever units the Gigant is carrying is the hard part. Since it such a big target and will be useless after unloading, the pilot should be able to drive what he has unloaded. But, there should be a capability to carry a driver, in the case of a scenario...or due to the weight of the M-16. It weighs about 9 tons. Therefore the Gigant would be capable of carrying 2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) and somebody would need to drive the other.
But regardless of the detail's I'd like to see it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 06-13-2000).]
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Fdiron, must be 2 turkey shoots then 'cuz the guncamera film i've seen shows gigants, not "tante Ju" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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why don't we simply just map a change of vehicle key? Then we can just have the pilot and the other guy who ever he might be jump from the Aircraft to the tank and drive off. You should also be able to decide who you want to fly + where. To load a tank onto the Aircraft you should have to physically drive it onto the aircraft. It should also be rigged out to drop troops as well as M16's panzers and ammunition and fuel for the panzers that we can airdrop from both the Big Bird and the Gooney Birds.
What you think?
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I think this is pretty good!
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With the re-arming points coming in 1.03 I think it should be implemented where, if nothing else, the C-47 can deliver ammo for either the Panzer or M-16. Perhaps something along the lines where the C-47 pilot types something like .rearm handle which would designate to whom the supplies go. Then, like a troop drop, the pilot would land or drop the troops who would procede to the vehicle and rearm it.
- Jig
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Jigster,
You genius (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Actually I'd been hopeing for a rearm, refuel truck along those same lines. However, nothing wrong with the idea, it's a sweet one!
Especially if those 10 troops could refuel 4 or 5 panzers or M16's. Then you have the potential for a really large convoy wtih resupply. Even better if you want to spend the time waiting if they can also repair damage! All guns, engine, etc should of course be disabled while doing so with perhaps a 5 min per damaged object wait for the driver????
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Great Idea!
eskimo
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ok,would be cool to have (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Brady
Of course a JU 52 would be to (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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This would be hilarious (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The main gun of a panzer could probably take out an airborne one of these from 3k in AH.. I want! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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My gawd could you imagine the frame hit this thing would cause?! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
- Jig
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/33rd2.gif)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 11-19-2000).]
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Il-2 continues to amaze... they got a Gigant!
(http://www.bluebyte.net/il2-e/products/graphics/shots/il2_98.jpg)
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Do we see something common with gigant compared to C-130 and C-17? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Couldn't tell you Fishu, they all look like the Fw-190 to me (etc)
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Do we see something common with gigant compared to C-130 and C-17? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
other then being a high wing monoplane, not really.
It does look somewhat like a C-5, C-133, or the H-4. Perhaps most like the H-4 because of the clamshell doors.
Other then that...it just looks like a big Fw.
- Jig
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GOD i want it !!!!
The Gigant and the Marder or Hetzer or towed 88s (you can use the M3 as tow tractor)
It would be WAY kewl !!
(and i can't think of all the possibilities for Scenario play..)
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I think the way to employ this monster would be the following..
when you pick the plane you list or ord to pick would include m-3/m-16 ow whatever vehicles you want. then when you land you could open the doors and then switch to your vehicle and roll on out leaving the plane out, then when you are finished raising hell you roll back in and close the doors and take off.
as far as it being easy to shoot down, here is what ya need to do for that. make its icon range the same as the flak panzer 1.5k
then FLY LOW! and if they dont see ya you make it, It would be a BLAST blobbing around 100 feet off the ground hideing from those scurvy sheister bastards!
ohh and what would 200 troops falling on a base look like?
do you think the acks could kill em all before they could capture?
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If you like the Gigant idea,
please post so in the Gigant thread in the:
Gameplay feedback/issues forum as well as in here.
I don't have a clue as to what it would take for HTC to decide to model something that has been recomended by players, but I would think it would take at least a few hundred responses.
eskimo
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Wobble, 1.5k icons? Are you serious?
That'd hardly do much good. You could spot this damn thing from 20k without icons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Do we see something common with gigant compared to C-130 and C-17? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Moral of the story: you can have the best ideas and the most intelligent people on the face of the earth, and STILL be a LOSER!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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A GIGANTic punt!
(http://209.198.154.16/il2-e/products/graphics/shots/il2_102.jpg)
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will be fun to see Gigant instead of instantaneous Pop-Up of osty at spawn point ...
Will give us a chance to let those "OstyVulcher" pay the price (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)