Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Vermillion on February 20, 2001, 08:29:00 AM
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Edit: I wrote this once already today (40mins typing), but the fargin BBS ate it, saying it had too many images. It didn't have a SINGLE image in it.
Ok... Its a psuedo Monday, I have a headache, and I'm in a generally pissy mood. So watch out, a rant of major proportions is coming. You have been warned.
Call me "CommieWobble", a "Red Star Whiner", a "Nancy Boy", or just a general "Whiner", I don't care, but what in the world is up with the serious anti-VVS bias to Aces High?
Its starting to become glaringly obvious.
For the longest time the only Soviet/Russian aircraft to grace the skies of Aces High was the La5FN. The 1943 La5 versus the 1944-45 planeset of the other combatants was the only choice for most of the time AH has existed.
Now don't get me wrong, the La5FN (a midwar varient) is a capable opponent when it is matched up against aircraft from its own time period. But I think we can all agree that its generally outclassed by the late war AH planeset.
But can someone tell me why it is modeled with the worst possible flight test performance data available (an issue that has been debated to death on this BBS)? Oh and why it mysteriously lacks its ground attack rockets, in addition to its rightful dearth of external ordinance and fuel? Strange... but not really a pattern.... yet.
So for much of the life of Aces High, fans of Russian aircraft suffered with a distinct disparity in aircraft, but took it well.
And then one day, after much campaigning and bribery to HTC, the much sought after Yak-9U was announced to be released in 1.03 !!
The Yak-9U, widely touted to be the equal to the P-51D Mustang, in all regards. Hurray!! Oh wait... weren't you told that the Yak-9U would also be modeled with the worst possible performance data?? That your 437mph Yak-9U, the fastest plane at its altitude, would become a 417mph Yak-9U, thereby losing 20mph at both altitude and sea level? Sure its still a great performing aircraft, but how would YOU feel if your favorite plane lost 20mph all around?? Can you imagine what would happen if the Dora came out 20mph too slow? The BBS would be flooded with posts of "I QUIT!", and threats of everything from boycotts to actually storming the HTC offices in Texas with a well organized mob.
And did I forget to mention the lack of subclass armament options for the Yak-9U, the Yak-9UT ? We have the Fw190A8/R2, the Me109G6/R6, the Me109G10/R6, and many others. So why is the Yak-9UT any different? Where is its x3 20mm option, the 23mm option, the 37mm option, or even the vaunted 45mm option?? Well its not any different, and I won't even mention the words F4U-1C... ooops (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Why are the VVS aircraft stuck to their weakest most common armament options when most every other nationality has multiple options, including rare "cannon birds"?? Wow those x2 20mm ShVaks in the La5Fn are simply devastating, and the Yak-9U with its single 20mm cannon with 150 rounds is a real terror.
But Pyro stated that he would add the Yak-9UT at a later date so that he could better control it with the Perk System, and many complaints were quieted. (Admittedly, primarily mine)
So now the promise of 1.06 is on the horizon, and the much anticipated Yak-9UT that was hinted at is here !!
Oh wait.... your not getting the Yak-9UT, your getting a Yak-9T.
Another midwar varient, that has a max speed of around 360mph, and otherwise poor performance compared to the planeset in AH. True its got a BFG cannon, a potent 37mm NS-37 cannon, but its otherwise fodder for the rest of the arena. It will be fun to fly once in a while, but about as surviveable as a Zero.
Can someone tell me why we didn't get the much anticipated Yak-9UT instead??
I know I know....
You'be been thinking all thru this post "SHUT UP whiner, your getting the La7 !!!".
But are we?
I keep getting this itchy feeling in the back of my mind that the La7 is gonna be added as a perk plane, even tho its performance doesn't warrant it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
So here we go again... the VVS is stuck flying the worst possible configuration and performance that can be managed. And I won't even go into the lack of a Russian attack plane or bomber. And wasn't the Soviet Union the 2nd or 3rd largest producer of aircraft in the Second World War?
About the only country's that may have it as bad or worse in the "holding the crappy end of the stick" deal than the Soviets in AH are the Italians and the Japanese. But hey.. how can you complain when you have the N1K2 ?
Yup you might have guessed it, but I will spell it out. I'm simply......
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Your wrong Verm. The 9u travels at its proper prescribed sea level speed. I can't argue with its altitude speed although it does appear to be off.
Also, you have the La7 coming, and the awesome firepower of the 9t.
Wanna talk conspiracy? You REALLY wanna talk about conspiracy? How bout only TWO Japanese planes, neither of them up to the standards of late war products as you so eloquently whine. No Ki84, no Ki44, no Ki100, just an outclassed Zeke, and the Niki, which maxes out at 369 mph.
Come on Verm, leave some for the Rising Sun.
fscott
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"Yak-9U production" stats in the Gordhon & Khazanov book match AH Yak-9U performance. Where is the problem?
Many other aircraft have speeds well below that of prototype performance or even the highest numbers for the production model.
I keep getting this itchy feeling in the back of my mind that the La7 is gonna be added as a perk plane, even tho its performance doesn't warrant it.
It has about the same performance as the F8F Bearcat. If that's not perkable, what is?
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-20-2001).]
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totaly agree with you....
need some SB-2
IL-2
Il-4
:{
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I believe that HTC having only 6 employees is further evidence of the conspiracy!
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Verm, how to say this...
is a great thing I'm not in the game for now, because if I was I would be quite raged too. Ta152H1 before Fw190D9...and 3 german planes this version, so if the FW190D9 doesnt see the light now, it wont be here for a long time...
You have problems with the data charts ,but you have the planes itself. God knows how happy would I be even with a nonMW50 190D9, but it isnt here either.
I feel your pain (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif). BUt I dont think you are in such a bad situation than us LW, at least regarding the fighters.
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Originally posted by fscott:
Your wrong Verm. The 9u travels at its proper prescribed sea level speed. I can't argue with its altitude speed although it does appear to be off.
BS
Also, you have the La7 coming, and the awesome firepower of the 9t.
UBER BS
Wanna talk conspiracy? You REALLY wanna talk about conspiracy? How bout only TWO Japanese planes, neither of them up to the standards of late war products as you so eloquently whine. No Ki84, no Ki44, no Ki100, just an outclassed Zeke, and the Niki, which maxes out at 369 mph.
no BS anymore here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Come on Verm, leave some for the Rising Sun.
Sorry ... I still prefer the rising cross...
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Fscott, both the SL and Altitude data are majorly off, or perfectly on, depending on which data set you look at. Semantically called the "production vs prototype" issue, which we debated in depth prior to your arrival in AH. Basically Pyro used the worst data set possible for the VVS planes in AH.
Funked, you believe that the aircraft used to obtain flight test data for planes like the P51, F4U, and Spit IX, were average production aircraft straight off the line, without any tweaking at all by experienced mechanics, technicians and engineers? Come on bud, you and me both know better than that. And that is where the Soviet "production" data came from, for quality control. Sorry but if you look at method, style, and reason for obtaining the data, the Soviet "prototype" data most closely matches the Allied Flight Test program. Don't forget that the words "production" and "prototype" are a english translation of the original Russian, not necessarily an exact translation.
And the awesome firepower of the Yak-9T ? Oh and is that like the "awesome" firepower of the Me109G6 30mm varient, which we see so much? Isn't it rivaling the -1C for dominance of the arena? Oh FYI the Yak-9T will peform about like a 109G2. This will only be good for those "gee whizz" rides. Not a serious contender in the least.
But I totally agree with you on the Japanese issue Fscott, and said so in my original post.
RAM, you're getting your Ta152 and 190F8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) rejoice and be happy! But its time for some parity for the rest of the countries in AH.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Verm, Yak9u prototype is listed as 372 mph at sea level. The production version is listed at 357 mph at sea level. The AH Yak9u achieves 357 mph at sea level. Where is the problem? And why on earth would you go with prototype numbers?
fscott
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So Ram, is that why you had the TA152 photo signature for so long, so that once we got the TA152, you could say "is a great thing I'm not in the game for now, because if I was I would be quite raged too. Ta152H1 before Fw190D9..." ???
Un-be-lieveable.
(http://www.airtel.net/hosting/0003d/ebringas/ta152.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-20-2001).]
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Verm, I know what you mean. I'm not exactly a VVS nut, but I do love my Yak. When I saw the Yak-9 shot I thought "UT variant! Yippie!!". Nope, sorry haas you get the stock 9T without the fuselage reinforcement and a shorter range. DAMN!
As for an anti-US conspiracy, it's called Numbers. Something lacking for a lot of interesting planes. I wrote a post on this not too long ago....
From my post "US aircraft: too many or too few?"
Just through reading various sites about some specific aircraft I can tell you they're here in numbers for a reason. That reason is data. US aircraft had more testing done on them, and some are still flying today. Which means if you don't have the max roll rate of the P-47 at 311mph and 19,551 feet you can easily find out. Test one that's still flying. You can't do this to any other plane really, since the numbers are very rare or just plain don't exist. You can do some rare aircraft by spending a mongo amount of cash or time to get that data.
You can plug what you know into Pyro's little FM Builder, but that doesn't help any. Why? Hardly any info about the Ki-45 (an example, nothing more). So you stick planes in the game that you can do fairly quickly. Surprise! US aircraft have more info about them available than any other country. So we end up with a load of US planes in AH. There's the obvious foriegn AC; Bf-109s, Fw-190s, Ki-84s, Yaks, Bf-110s, Ki-43s, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Zekes, and Il-2s. They have info available about them, but what of the other aircraft you rarely see?
Now this could be a possibility for seeing many more US aircraft in the game. But remember when 1.06 is finally, put through it's paces, bugs fixed, problems solved we'll have a load of new aircraft that ARE NOT built in the US. Ar234, Fw-190 F8, Yak-9T, La-7, Ta-152 H1. Five brand new aircraft that don't have one of those "Made in USA" stamps on 'em.
As for performance specs, I think you're also correct. Pyro uses "production" figures, not the test figures we have found/bought/stolen/raided from various places. I would like to see a Yak-9D here one of these days, with 600 rounds for each MG and 400 for that cannon (probably wrong by a long shot). Same goes for the Yak-9T; since this plane base is '44-'45 based not making it a UT variant just doesn't have much logic behind it.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was
Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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Rip, the sig I most have used was this, and by far:
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Ram, out
Erg/JG26 homepage (http://users3.50megs.com/staga/ram/acesindex.htm)
I WANT THIS PLANE!!!!!!!
(http://www.airtel.net/hosting/0003d/ebringas/ram.gif)
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The fact that I love the Ta152H as a plane doesnt deny the fact that is a plane that in Aces HIgh wont be the match for the P51D that the dora should be.
And I have Always said that I love the Fw190D9 far more than any other 190 variant. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[edit] that signature that you show was used by me during less than one month.[/edit]
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-20-2001).]
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let's see... we have 1942 spitfire... 1942 tiffy... 1944 Tempest will be a PERK .... spitfire 14 is nowhere in sight ( and it will most likely be a perk )
RAF is stuck with 1942 spitfire 9 F ( worst of all spit 9s ) ...
Please tell me how bad you lads feel (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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It's not AH Verm - it's everywhere. It's a big-boy-is-down-why-not-kick-him-in-the-balls syndrome. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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3 new LW aircraft this version and *some* LW-commited fliers still whine...un-be-lieve-able.
Edited after reading Staga's post, he's right.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-20-2001).]
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gotta agree with ripsnort, LW have no reason to whine for quite some time now.
sorry guys, LW now have a plane for every aspect, high alt interceptor, pony chaser downer, fast rolling devil .. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
as for verm's VVS stuff,, verm you cannot whine about the yak-9u, its a awesome plane as it is now. so is teh la5, and we are getting the la7 which like funked said is close (but not nearly as cool looking) to my beloved bearcat.
I am not country-philic or -phobic, i donthave any particular allegiance to a plane's nationality, but i really dont think you have a reason to whine about the state of vvs fighter performance..
if you were to whine about the lack of il2m3 i agree completely, im stil hoping it will be in 1.06 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
if you want a fighetr to whine about porked performance, see p47-d30's wep performance, or fw-190 a8.
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What is this thing with attacks against someones persona in this UBB?
I've seen lots of those lately and its getting annoying (you maybe noticed that in other topic...).
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Zigrat, so your saying as long as a aircrafts performances is "pretty good already" or "cool" its ok for it to have its performance crippled? I think 20mph is ALOT. Remember it could be your favorite ride next.
FYI, I have an english translation of Focke Wulf factory test data I will post for you on the 190A8, 190A8 (with GM1) & 190A8/R2 as soon as I get my scanner working again. It shows that the 190A8 in AH is right on the mark.
Fscott, go back and read how both the VVS "prototype" numbers were gathered, and the VVS "production" numbers were gathered. Then read how, when, and where Allied flight testing numbers were gathered and compare the situations to the Soviet Data. You will see that the so called "prototype" data most closely matches the Allied flight testing regime. So what I'm saying is that, if you want to use a consistent method of evaluating flight test data, the Yak-9U should do 372mph at SL and 437mph at 18k. Not the current performance of AH.
Fd-Ski, but at least you have the Tiffe and Spit both with those turbolaser hispano's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
And guys, no one yet has explained to me the logic of not including the Yak-9UT (even at "production" peformance specs), since it would only have needed slight adjustments to the Yak-9U FM. Why do the Yak-9T which is significantly different in FM (engine, weight, etc.)and graphics, not to mention essentially useless to the current main arena??
And why shouldn't the VVS have its "late war cannon birds" like every other country in AH ??
Thats what I'm whining about.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 02-20-2001).]
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
sorry guys, LW now have a plane for every aspect, high alt interceptor, pony chaser downer, fast rolling devil .. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
allow me to differ; we lack what was regarded as the best german prop fighter of world war two. Only the British and the Germans planeset have this problem.
USA------->Has the P51D
USSR------>Has Yak9U, has La7
Italy----->Has C205
Japan----->Has N1K2
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
3 new LW aircraft this version and *some* LW-commited fliers still whine...un-be-lieve-able.
Edited after reading Staga's post, he's right.
Please in 1.07 put a Bf109E4, a Ju87B and a He111H. Add a F4U4, a SpitXIV, a Spit XVI, a Il10, a B29...As we get three german planes, we will have no reason to rant (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Germany lacks the 190D9 to compete in equal terms with their allied counterparts. Ta152H1 is better than 190D9 only over 30K. wow. And it will (should) be perked. Wow again. Ta152H was a hi-alt interceptor, not a fighter. Here it will be a stratofighter, at the best, because with the bomber gunnery system two mausers and a close range 30mm wont be adequate to get B17s effectively (lancasters yes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)).
And please dont repeat that the 109G10 is a match for the P51. One on one yes, in the arena NO, it isnt.
I will stop it now, mostly because this was not intended to be a thread hijack.
BTW maybe I ranted too strongly. Raged is not the word, in fact I would feel very pissed and annoyed. Not raged (Again I take the word that is not the one to be taken).
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-20-2001).]
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Japanese regarded the Ki-84 as their best fighter IIRC...
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Well I have always read that the Shiden Kai was the best Japanese plane of WWII.
Of course I also have read the same about the Ki100, so, well... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Yet another Rametz hijack... Just leave already dude. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Verm, for US planes at least, HTC seems to be using USAAF data for production planes which were delivered to the USAAF.
These are not data for Y models which would correspond to Soviet "prototypes".
Furthermore the USAAF data are invariably more conservative than manufacturer's data.
If HTC had used Y data or manufacturer's data, I would support you. But they didn't. You are out of line here, sorry.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-20-2001).]
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are you sure we arent getting the yak-ut verm? I agree it should be added, since luftwaffe gets a 30mm variant, so should VVS.
as for the performance numbers, well, lets see.
the yak-9u we currently have produced 1650 horses i think right? like the mustang. and the mustang had the lowest cd,o of the war, but you say yak-9u outruns mustang on deck plus has better wingloading and climbs faster? mabye ill do some moth on the yak-9u.
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Luke Rametz? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) <G,D,R>
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Luke Rametz? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) <G,D,R>
Once again, falling into personal attacks.
Typical.
(BTW once again, I was not Skywlker...poor guy...)
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Had a smiley, Mr. I-Am-So-Sensitive...(now THAT WAS a personal attack)
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math that is
mabye ill take some typing classes too
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Funked, this is something I thought about over lunch and I will check tonight if I can. Check the date on the flight test data, I would bet that the date occurs before there was widespread production of the aircraft. I didn't say it had to be a Y model. It can just as easily be an early pre-production aircraft used by either the manufacturer or the USAAF for acceptance testing. If I'm right, do you feel that a special aircraft hand tuned by the best factory engineers and mechanics, or a picked set of airforce personnel, corresponds to a "production" aircraft ? So do you think that the American data is equivalent to a random untouched and untuned aircraft off the Russian production line?
Zigrat, yes I'm sure it is a Yak-9T, not the -UT. Look at the location of the radiator housing. Its up under the nose, just like the Yak-9D. Not up under the fuselage like the -9U or the P51. Hence, a -9T.
Also on performance numbers remember that the Yak-9U was MUCH lighter than a P51D. Remember also, that its engines were tuned for performance at a much lower altitude, so I would guess that its engine has less power drawn off to run the supercharger than the P51, thereby increasing performance low, but hurting it up high. So yes, I do expect it to perform better.
RAM, no thread hijacking !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Verm, the Y airplanes WERE the preproduction models used for acceptance testing.
And yes I believe the data that USAAF put in the manuals for each aircraft was intentionally derated to represent what you could actually get in the field, taking into account production variation and service conditions.
Furthermore there is evidence that USAAF and USN aircraft were "hot-rodded" in the field by American boys who grew up working on cars. Like Robt. Johnson's P-47D which ran 72"(!) boost on a regular basis.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-20-2001).]
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"Italy ---> Has C205"
Where??
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Another thought on the "production vs prototype" issue.
Do you believe that the data that Pyro used to model the Ta152-H1 was production or prototype?
Hint 1: Check the date on the flight test documents I have posted here on the BBS, and then at the operational dates of ANY Ta152.
Hint 2: There were only 3 or 4 production Ta152-H1's (out of the total 152 H0's and H1's production of less than 50) that were made, and they were immediately shipped to the front and saw combat.
Blatant attempt to win over the Luftwaffe contingent to our cause of equalivalent standards for flight data used in FM's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Vermillion, well said, it is painfully obvious that HTC is appealing to the perceived will of the masses, at least insomuch as the modeling of aircraft types is concerned. As far as the performance modeling is concerned I am still relatively new hear, but it seams as though they bust their balls to get it right and will listen to reason to adjust those figures.One can only hope that this will be the case in regard to the VVS.
The only real problem I have with AH in general is that we don't have countries fighting other countries we have Chess pices.I would rather fight for Germany against Russia or japan against England kind of like we did in FA (that is the only thing i miss about FA btw...other than not knowing your opponents name till u shoot him down).
The nice thing about having countries is that their must be a compleat plane set for all the countries represented(or a set that has types in each categories,,bomber ftr..transport...ect).HTC also knows I am sure that their is something looming on the Horizon that may impact their following...a sim that is supposed to be as beautiful, as realistic,as challenging,....but it will have countries..and compleat plane set's for them...do u think they don't know this..I can not help but think that they will not address this games shortcomings..however few they may be.
Brady
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(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwCwcDEJznXbXfCxAJfgD0a7w1sDVrWuMP28UBOabRCH339Yvya3KrR2Q8UMjrBJ)
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 02-20-2001).]
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I am somewhat surprised that they decided to do Yak-9T instead of Yak-9UT, because it was easier for them to do Yak-9UT (didn't have to change the aircraft shape).
Yeah, I think they could have included different variants of armament for Soviet planes just like they do for German ones. A bit strange that they didn't do it yet.
As for prototype vs production tests. First of all, as strange it might seem to some, it wasn't always the case that prototype test figures were better than those for production tests (and I have data to show that). Second, there are different kinds of production testing. For instance, one has to distinguish tests of a new production fighter and those of a used production fighter. The latter was called "control" test in VVS, i.e. they would choose a set of aircraft at random, fly them over to the flight test from the front and see how they do.
Of course, I suppose that to keep things fair, AH team uses data for non-Soviet aircraft that were obtained in a similar way (i.e. used production or new production). I am sure they spend quite a bit of time on tangling with those issues.
Now, I only have performance data in metric system, but for those interested here they are:
Source 1 (Shavrov's book):
Yak-9U (production):
Engine: VK-107A, 1500hp
Weight: typical combat take-off - 3150
Speed: sea level - 600km/h
top at alt - 700km/h at alt of 5.5km
landing - 140
Climb to 5000m time: 4.1 min
Ceiling: 11900m
Range: 870m
Time for a 360 turn at 1000m: 20sec
Source 2 (TsAGI team):
Yak-9U (control test):
Engine: VK-107A, 1650hp sea level, 1500hp at best alt
Weight: 3204kg
Speed: sea level - 575km/h
top - 672km/h at alt of 5000m
landing - 140km/h
Climb to 5000m time: 5 min
Time for a 360 turn at 1000m: 19sec
As you can see the second Yak-9U was noticeably heavier and had worse characteristics, especially in climb.
Now the point is: how do they choose data for other, non-Soviet AC's ? Do they also choose the worst data ?
Say the same TsAGI report gives the following data for 190D-9
FW-190D-9:
Engine: Jumo-213A, 1780 sea level/1480 at alt (1600 in "combat" mode)
Weight: 4197kg
Speed: sea level - 530km/h (543km/h in WEP)
top - 631km/h at alt of 6150m
(642km/h at alt of 6100m)
landing - 158km/h
Climb to 5000m time: 5.6 min
Time for a 360 turn at 1000m: 22-23 sec
In other words, Dora is not as much suited for fighter vs fighter combat as Yak-9U as it looses by all parameters. The TsAGI study actually contains the diagrams of speed/climbrate/engine power performance including 109G-10. G-10s parameters become better than those of Yak-9U only above 6.3km or so. The authors mention though that they took into account only those power augmentation modes of the engine that can be sustained for at least 10min. They say 109's engines could only muster 1-2min in WEP, if longer they would risk catastrophic failure (the coolant would start boiling).
BTW, apparently the VVS had a substantial experience in operating FW-190D-9 - Oleg Maddox, creator of "Il-2 Shturmovik" game, mentioned a squadron of new Dora's was captured intact and flown in combat against the Germans. Even larger quantities of 109s were also captured and flown by VVS in combat (usually on special missions, Gen Ye.Ya. Savitsky even became something of an expert in those and flew 109 often in mock-up practice fights, though he preferred a Yak himself).
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Well...
We sure need some more russian planes now when LW has couple perk toys (LW still needs Dora for better nonperk fighter)
Ruskies needs those bombers and ground attack fighters badly.
Though, their current fighters are very capable in their A/A role.
btw. I'd say that Yak 9 is better than P-51 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Maneuvers better, accerlates better.. top speed might not be that fast but it takes couple years to accerlate P-51 at that speed compared to Yak9.
About Dora, I can imagine it being 20mph slower if not 30mph, because that might well happen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (it has happend with many other planes)
Didn't R2 have those cannon pods, upping amount of cannons to 6?
or was it R6.. i don't remember.
Though, I think that LW had few times more different weapon combinations than russians..
(WHERES my MG/FF from Ju-88! I have already put my proves on the table of A-4 having option for cannon in the nose)
Soviets made bunch of planes, many of them being inferior as well.
but AH misses bombers and ground attack planes for soviets...
Just wait till Japs gets KI84.. that might happen soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(Maybe HTC should hire couple volunteer 3D modellers to make up the planes, that takes most of the time with planes, doesn't it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Fscott,
That N1K2 seems bit annoying in the AH already..
4 cannons, can dive with P47, fast as hell and still flies fine with very low speed, plus turns on a dime.
Doesn't seem too slow
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Guys 1.06 will be full of new planes,I suspect 1.07 will also be rich in new plane additions.
Who knows Verm maybe more VVS is coming in future versions.
Either way you cant get everything you want in one fell swoop that goes for Luftwaffe,RAF,USAAF,VVS,IJN fans.
Its starting to sound like a 6 year olds birthday party"He got more cake than I did" and "she got the icing flower". Waaaaaaaa!!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Waaaaaaa somebody call the waaambulance! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The truth is, everyone is going to leave the party with a good goody bag. Just wait till the parties over, untill then keep enjoying the festivities.
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Verm, <S> bud.
I see your point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I just want to make one comment.
And guys, no one yet has explained to me the logic of not including the Yak-9UT (even at "production" peformance specs), since it would only have needed slight adjustments to the Yak-9U FM. Why do the Yak-9T which is significantly different in FM (engine, weight, etc.)and graphics, not to mention essentially useless to the current main arena??
I can think of a reason. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Can you say "Russian Front Scenario"? Note, I'm not on the CM team and have no idea what they are working on next... just pointing out why they might include that particular plane.
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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VERM---
I cannot speak for other aircraft, but the data used in modeling the P-51D REALLY IS from a regular production aircraft, complete with guns and radios and such.
In fact, the airplane wasn't even new. It was several years old serving in an ANG group.
Basically, the USAF decided it wanted to see what a stock P-51D in service could do, without being lightened or modified or anything. So it took one out of ANG service, polished up up like they were in WW2, and flight-tested it. The actual P-51D used in these tests still exists. This is the source of the P-51D performance data.
This doesn't seem to have been done so publicly for the other major USAAF aircraft, probably because of lack of interest.
This performance information is widely available, and explains why the P-51D is almost always one of the best-modeled airplanes in any sim, and why WW2 sims almost always have it as one of the first planes they model.
So, *IF* the VVS aircraft are using the "worst" data possible, then so if the P-51D. Personally, I think these airplanes just happen to be modeled more true-to-life than several others.
What makes me wonder, is the Bf-109G-10. A captured example was flight-tested at WPAFB (Dayton), and top speed at full boost was found to be 428 MPH--considerably slower than the 450 or so AH has. This airplane still exists, and is currently sitting on display.
The problem isn't that HTC has a grudge against VVS aircraft....it's that SOME airplanes perform too well, probably because of a lack of good, consistent data. It is nobody's fault, just a consequence of the fact that 50-year-old plane data is a bit hard to come by.
J_A_B
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Baddawg, Count the number of US planes up thru 1.06, count the number of German planes up thru 1.06. Count (it won't take you long) the number of VVS planes up thru 1.06. Now tell me its a matter of "waaa waaaa I didn't get my toys". And along the way explain to me why the other countries have armament options, especially cannon options, and the VVS don't have a single one. Yes I'm squeaking and moaning, but its getting old that my favorite rides are continuously getting a raw deal.
Lephturn, don't forget that I'm the head CM and oversee each and every scenario in the current pipeline. Let me clue yah..... Nope ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) That would be like you not knowing who your own trainers are.
JAB, I'm just now doing some preliminary research on the issue (so I don't hang my hat on any of it), but it seems that the P-51D was extensively tested from its prototype stages thru the end of WWII. If you look in AHT, it shows many performance charts for the P-51D which match the AH charts, and in the reference section it directly references tests from 1943-45. So I highly doubt that what we see is AH is a foot weary post war ANG P-51D. Not to say that the tests your refering too didn't happen, but I don't think they are the source of our performance data.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Verm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
How do you know that Pyro isn't just pulling your lariat, and setting you up for a nice Yak 9UT surprise? I seem to recall a particular P-47 variant that showed up unannounced soon after a major release.
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
What makes me wonder, is the Bf-109G-10. A captured example was flight-tested at WPAFB (Dayton), and top speed at full boost was found to be 428 MPH--considerably slower than the 450 or so AH has. This airplane still exists, and is currently sitting on display.
...and I always remember that it was pain to get beyond 400mph in G10
One sources says 426mph, another says 448mph... etc.
I got quite varying speeds for it between those two values (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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It's not been two months since we released the last version. So far, we've shown 6 new planes for the next version and have a couple more that we haven't shown yet. You can think that's a good thing or you can think that it's a hundred sins of omission. Doesn't really matter I suppose, next time it'll only be 92 sins of omission. I harbor no illusions about being able to simultaneously and fully please the various factions, whether it's the Victorians, the superfreaks, or the nationalists. The planeset will become large and diverse as we keep adding to it as painful as that may be.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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COMMIEWOBBLE!!!
Hehehe, I like that one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Here, enjoy this pic from you-know-what:
(http://www.bluebyte.net/il2-e/products/graphics/shots/il2_286.jpg)
OK, that was cruel. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Pyro, LW fighter guys miss Fw190D9. I dont think they miss much more things now we have a Jabo too.
I have no idea on the couple of fighters you have yet to show. Maybe one is a d9 maybe not. But if it isnt, I think I speak in the name of 90% of the LW dedicated jagdflieger if I tell you that you would've made them much more happy with a Fw190D9 than with the Ta152.
Said that, I love the Ta152H and I think its a great addition. I simply think that between Ta152H and Fw190D9, the plane that most deserved to be modelled (and was most needed, frankly), was the d9.
Back to the topic, VVS planeset, I agree they lack A/G planes. I dont know about the performance of the planes, I'm not an expert. But I see that people think that there are variants missing (Yak9UT). Same happens with other nations' planesets (mostly the german) too. I think that the VVS lacks a bomber and an attack plane (Read, Tu2 or Pe2 and Il2). But other than that I dont think that the lack of a Yak9UT is to be as angry as Verm is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-20-2001).]
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Verm I hope you did not take my post in a wrong light as it was not a flame directed towards you.
This part however was directed towards you
Who knows Verm maybe more VVS is coming in future versions.
The remainder of the post was a lighthearted jab at everyone with the ever prevelent Billy Connelly Demand Schtick Mentality. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)and :bite tongue smiley:<-----I need that smiley I think it would be a good one.
Opps edited for SFUSL Society For Uniform Smiles Legends (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Baddawg (edited 02-20-2001).]
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Homer: Marge, you're my wife, and I love you very much, but you're living in a world of make believe! With flowers and bells and leprechauns and magic frogs with funny little hats.
I think that quote somehow applies well to RAM in this situation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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You want a whine? How's about the americans only get twins?
Where's the BF110? the mossie?
the Ki-45? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Pyro I'm kidding, can Guido let me breathe now? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But I do agree, VVS had some monster firepower packages, I'd like to see those.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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In response to Verm's response:
ANG P-51's weren't "foot weary", and were kept up quite well, as with all ANG planes. Also, while I doubt this information is the SOLE source of data for the 51 in AH, if you look at it you will see that the real ANG P-51, and AH's P-51 match up VERY close. AH's P-51 DOES perform like its real-life counterpart.
Stripped-down "hotrod" P-51's, without guns, armor, and radios (essentially the same as the still-flying P-51's), performed considerably better than what we have in AH.
That said, the P-51 is ONE plane. As I said originally, I can't speak for the others. Some, like the F6F or A6M5, seem to perform as they should.
Others...well...let's give HTC the benefit of the doubt and assume that they do the best they can. I really don't believe that they willingly "improve" some planes, while "handicapping" others. Informatioin on some of the planes in AH is hard to come by, and sometimes you have to make a choice between several conflicting sets of data.
The VVS planes do what they should. Compare a Yak-9U to a Bf-109G-6, and it'll be a good fight.
J_A_B
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I have to agree with verm on the armament options. Having the Yak 9 with only one armament option is crap, espc when the 109s and 190s and some USA planes all come with different armament options.
Can comment on the performance of the current yak. All i know is that its a damned good plane (better than a p51 IMO, just under-armed).
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_cough cough_
_barf_
A G6?????
Historically the 9U chewed up G-10's and spat them out under 19,000ft. This plane was a monster at low altitude, same or even lower drag than a P-51 and completely geared and supercharged for low altitude while being a featherweight. She was polished and repainted every 6 service weeks to keep her speed up and was one of the only VVS planes that was rarely operated off dirt tracks as the mud hurt her performance.
All we have of her in AH is a close representation of her speed. her full manueverability and acceleration make up the difference so she is still dangerous. Like verm has said again and again- if this was done to US or German planes there would be no end of the crying. VVS fans however have been a suffer in silence group who during the Beta fought hard in the La-5FN to make respect. Now that the doors have finally opened it would be nice to have that quiet sufferage rewarded like the loud screaming brats have been in the past. That is the point, that is the desire we have.
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Ram.
If you got the D9 you would have been whining about some facet of it for sure.
Verm.
You know that the most important facet of plane decisions they make seem to be
A) not seen befor
B) Interest(even if its only HT thats intrested, he apperently gets some say.
C) Interest.
You are steping up the level on issues B and C. But you honestly sound like a whiner on this.
Im geting an LA7 and another Yak 9 to go with the ones we have but WHA WHA WHA.
What the hell are you talking about?
Sounds like your dont enjoy the planes at all. Let them release the dam things then we can whine about them.
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Ram.
If you got the D9 you would have been whining about some facet of it for sure.
Verm.
You know that the most important facet of plane decisions they make seem to be
A) not seen befor
B) Interest(even if its only HT thats intrested, he apperently gets some say.
C) Interest.
You are steping up the level on issues B and C. But you honestly sound like a whiner on this.
Im geting an LA7 and another Yak 9 to go with the ones we have but WHA WHA WHA.
What the hell are you talking about?
Sounds like your dont enjoy the planes at all. Let them release the dam things then we can whine about them.
LW side wishes D9 for better nonperk plane, which performs at low/medium altitudes better than wuergers (read; speed)
Ta152 again is against those high altitude P51D(weebs), tho, perked.
I don't see why there would be really reason to complain after D9, if its modelled with MW50, so it wouldn't be just a target drone for P-51's and Yaks.. though, still poor maneuver.
Only complains I'd have after dora, would be the deep edge between other 20mm's and the hispano.
(gah.. can I have those realistic instruments, pretty please?)
I don't know about RAM, but thats my opinion.
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Not to sidetrack the discussion (if it is even possible anymore...) but I'm perfectly happy with Luftwaffe planes we will get in 1.06. Remember, it always could be worse!
There will be many versions after 1.06 with many new planes. It is sure that HTC cannot please everyone with their order of modeling planes. But remember that most likely you will get your favoutrite plane in some phase.
Personal attack of the day:
RAM didn't you just quit yet again and said you should quit reading the board?
Here in northern europe, we hold man's word in great value and expect man to live up to his words. Here, when man says something he really means it. Is this so different in south? You guys keep talking just to keep warm, eh? Of course not, Gatt and other italian pilots are top notch folks so it must be personal thing.
For diddly's sake, go away if you have decided to quit! Few more things are more pathetic than man who says he quits but then comes back next day because he cannot live up to his words. And "my hot hispanic blood" is not an valid excuse for acting like clildren in sandbox.
End of personal attack of the day.
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Verm is right, the VVS badly needs planes.
I'd like to have seen D9 before TA152, because of it being perked...
But MAN, I AIN'T gonna whine now that we're getting both the F8 and the 152!
About the new Yak being perked, I'd say it'd depend on performance, and that it should initially be unperked. Let's see if it is that upsetting.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!
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Re-read my goodbye post in oftopic , I said that i was going to erase my cookie not to post without thinking in it, and that I would still be around the Offtopic and Aircraft/Vehicles forums. I have posted too in the General forum ( acouple of posts) because they were DIRECTLY related to me, and I will, indeed, answer to threads directly talking about me.
I said I was leaving the game and I've done it.I said I was closing the door, and I've done it. I wished good luck to AH and HTC. But I didnt say that I would leave the boards in any moment. I am reading all the forums, and answering offtopic and aircraft/vehicles forums, as I said I would.
So get your things straight before insulting someone, please.
[edit] you can clearly see it in the thread about Lazio,answering to mighty1[/edit]
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-21-2001).]
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JAB, I understand about ANG P-51s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) In fact I spent 6 years in my local ANG unit, the same one that my father spent 27 years in, 13 of which he was a Navigator flying C-119's and later in C-130's. This unit, now known as the 130th TAG, from Charleston WV, was one of the last American units to fly P-51's (if not the last). And they still have one of their P-51's in pristine show room shape that they keep as a memorial. In fact, when President Bush spoke about the military last week at our airbase, they wheeled out the P-51 onto the tarmac, and the national news crews had pictures of it, Air Force 2, and some of the units C-130Hs, all in one picture. Really nice. I guess my point wasn't that you were wrong, but simply that there is more data out there for the P-51D, than post war ANG data.
One thing tho. The Yak-9U comparable to the 109G6 ????? Sorry, but you don't know your Yak's at all. As Sorrow pointed out, the Yak-9U was the contemporary to the 109G10, 109K4, 190A8, and 190D9, and could take them all on in a even manner. It was the Yak-9D (similar to the Yak-9T we're getting) that was the contemporary to the 109G6. In fact I have a couple of quotes from Luftwaffe aces and command officers that flew on both fronts that state they thought the Yak-9U was a much more deadly opponent than the P-51D.
Now that the doors have finally opened it would be nice to have that quiet sufferage rewarded like the loud screaming brats have been in the past. That is the point, that is the desire we have.
Preach on brother Sorrow.... Preach on.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Its really funny that not a single person (other than those that agree with me) has addressed the main point of my original post.
- Why do the VVS units not have the subclass armament options or external ordinance available to them, while they are available to every other country in Aces High?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Its really funny that not a single person (other than those that agree with me) has addressed the main point of my original post.
- Why do the VVS units not have the subclass armament options or external ordinance available to them, while they are available to every other country in Aces High?
[/B]
well if that is your question I think two reasons that explain it, Verm. I dont say that they are or not correct, I simply say that they can explain why the Yak9U and La5FN dont have more options than the ones they have.
1-I understand that Yaks were classidied as U, D, T, UT, etc, with a standard armament that didnt vary along the career of the plane itself. Germany ,for instance, had planes that could change completely of weapons from one sortie to another. For instance, the LW could field a Me109G6/R6 in one sortie and shortly after it send the same plane to battle as a 109G6/R3. THe cell was the same the weapons didnt.
I really doubt that in the VVS was standard to do that with a Yak9U (to change in few hours from U to UT). But I can be wrong (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
That applies to the internal armament
2-regarding the external ordinance, well, it has been said that VVS relied in dedicated fighters and dedicated bombers. Sorrow said in another post that he doubts that the La5FN ever used the rockets and/or bombs operationally, although it had provision to do it.I dont know about Yak9U.
That may be the reason why you dont have bombs/rockets, but I can be wrong too.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-21-2001).]
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Where is the Pe-2 and Il-2 to bomb stuff then? Germany has the Ju 88A-4 and now Fw 190F-8. RAF has Lancaster and Typhoon, US has 3 bombers and all it's fighters are jabo kings...
Of course, Japan and Italy are probably even more screwed than Russia in this regard - I don't think you'll see a P1Y1, S.M.79-II, Ki 102b etc. anytime soon... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Regarding the Yak weapon loadouts - the Macchi fighters are in the same boat I believe. There were 11 series of MC.202 produced, and only the later ones had wing guns - I suspect retro-fitting them to earlier versions was not an option in the field. The story is the same for the MC.205V also - only the later series had the 20mm fitted.
Then you have freaks like the fictional E wing Spitfire F.IX, and wonderous combinations like 20x100kg bombs and 2 torpedoes on the Ju 88A-4, or 2,500lbs of bombs + 3400rnds ammo + 10 5" rockets on the P-47D-30!
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Why do the VVS units not have the subclass armament options or external ordinance available to them, while they are available to every other country in Aces High?
Well, I think I alluded to that in my last post. Maybe, just maybe, Pyro will pull a rabbit out of his hat and give us the 9t and the 9ut. Or, they might add those armament options later, as they've done with the Typhoon.
My point being, let's wait and see what we actually get.
[This message has been edited by banana (edited 02-21-2001).]
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Some of those Russian cannons where good enough that they might cause as much ruckas as the Hisapno has. Not that that would stop them but it would make them appreciate the non drawing time that the plane might take to introduce. IE 2 weeks to draw the plane. 30 min to type in the ballistics info and 6 months for the game play implecations to settle down.
You asked for reasons.
from pyro
"I harbor no illusions about being able to simultaneously and fully please the various factions, whether it's the Victorians, the superfreaks, or the nationalists. "
he he we Victorians got our own faction..
can I be the leader?
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 02-21-2001).]
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Originally posted by juzz:
Where is the Pe-2 and Il-2 to bomb stuff then? Germany has the Ju 88A-4 and now Fw 190F-8. RAF has Lancaster and Typhoon, US has 3 bombers and all it's fighters are jabo kings...
of course, in ground pounders,I agree the VVS planeset is severely lacking.
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Originally posted by RAM:
well if that is your question I think two reasons that explain it, Verm. I dont say that they are or not correct, I simply say that they can explain why the Yak9U and La5FN dont have more options than the ones they have.
1-I understand that Yaks were classidied as U, D, T, UT, etc, with a standard armament that didnt vary along the career of the plane itself. Germany ,for instance, had planes that could change completely of weapons from one sortie to another. For instance, the LW could field a Me109G6/R6 in one sortie and shortly after it send the same plane to battle as a 109G6/R3. THe cell was the same the weapons didnt.
I really doubt that in the VVS was standard to do that with a Yak9U (to change in few hours from U to UT). But I can be wrong (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
That applies to the internal armament
2-regarding the external ordinance, well, it has been said that VVS relied in dedicated fighters and dedicated bombers. Sorrow said in another post that he doubts that the La5FN ever used the rockets and/or bombs operationally, although it had provision to do it.I dont know about Yak9U.
That may be the reason why you dont have bombs/rockets, but I can be wrong too.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-21-2001).]
Hmm the spit 9 has armament options that required a different WING and designation....
SKurj
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I saw a net-site with pics of La-5FN with bomb-racks in its wings. I'll try to find those pics.
Edit: Here's the link (http://hep2.physics.arizona.edu/~savin/ram/la-5fn.html)
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/la5bombs.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 02-21-2001).]
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Some of those Russian cannons where good enough that they might cause as much ruckas as the Hisapno has. Not that that would stop them but it would make them appreciate the non drawing time that the plane might take to introduce. IE 2 weeks to draw the plane. 30 min to type in the ballistics info and 6 months for the game play implecations to settle down.
Pongo, if that is the case, then fine. I have no arguements with that. In fact Pyro said earlier that he wouldn't release a plane with the NS-37 or NS-45 cannons because they would negate the need for true armor busters in the game.
I understand and respect that. But strange that we now will have the Yak-9T which mounts the 37mm NS-37.
However, given those arguements, what about the OTHER options that are available, and are no more unbalancing than the current set?
The Yak-9UT also had the following available:
- x3 20mm B-20 Cannons
- x2 20mm B-20 Cannons (Cowling) + x1 23mm NS-23 Cannon (Hub)
The B20 cannon is ballistically identical to the ShVak we already have, and they used the exact same ammunition. Three ShVaks would be far from devastating.
Three B20 cannons would firepower/lethality wise have approximately the same firepower as the 109G models with a 20mm plus gondolas, or less firepower than the N1K2, F4U-1C, Fw190 (any but two cannon models), Spitfire IX, or the Typhoon. Is that unbalancing?
The NS-23 23mm cannon would be roughly equivalent to the German Mk108 30mm cannon. It would have better ballistics and rate of fire, but it has a much smaller shell, so would be less lethal.
So again, firepower wise, it would be roughly equal to the 109G series with a 30mm and gondolas, and would still have much less firepower than any of the x4 20mm cannon birds in the current planeset. Is that unbalancing ?
Plus lets not forget that ammo loads in either of these configurations, are very small, and what most people would consider minimal (unless you already fly a Yak or 109 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ).
I just don't see how either of these configurations would be unbalancing to
the arena in any way. At the worst it would give the Yak a snapshot ability only somewhat subpar to what 80% of the planes in the air in the main arena at any one time, currently already have.
It would be such a horrible thing to have to respect the snapshot of the Yak, instead of knowing that he can only kill you if he gets in an extended shot from the dead six position. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
All I ask for is equal treatment for the VVS aircraft that is already given to the rest of the planeset. Is that so horrible?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by SKurj:
Hmm the spit 9 has armament options that required a different WING and designation....
SKurj
Well I was talking about german iron as comparison, but you've got a point here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Juzz:
Then you have freaks like the fictional E wing Spitfire F.IX, and wonderous combinations like 20x100kg bombs and 2 torpedoes on the Ju 88A-4, or 2,500lbs of bombs + 3400rnds ammo + 10 5" rockets on the P-47D-30!
Wow, I thought that the Ju could not load the 20 50kg bombs if torpedo was selected, but indeed it can!!. That's not a freak, that is IMO wrong.
DOnt know about the P47D30, in fact I always thot it only could load 6 rockets and the 10 rockets option came as a surprise to me.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-21-2001).]
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Verm-
Just to let you know, people read but perhaps don't have the answer. Anything I could come up with would be pure speculation at best, therefore I have left it alone. I'm sure others have done the same.
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The reason I compared the YAK-9U to the 109G6 is simple:
When IRL the 9U got a hold of G6's, the YAK's did really well, and they do the same in AH. They also hold up very well against all the FW's, and are generally a frightening experience for the American fighters. However, they can't kill the G-10's like they could IRL....WHY?
It isn't because the YAK is porked. The 109G10 has too much speed IMO. If the G10 performed like captured examples--428 MPH tops--THEN the YAK would make a much better showing of itself.
I still think the VVS aircraft are among the better modeled in AH. It's just some of their opponents aren't.
J_A_B
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People gain intrest in an aircraft by reading accounts of fights in them and seeing pictures of the aces aircraft etc.
If you want to build intrest why not post some of those. Or links to them.
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best solution is to add the yak-9t we are gettiung
then make all armorment options available for all yaks
it will be niceto get a -9t since it saw action in 43, as did the la5fn and would be good for a kursk scenario versus a5s and g6s
[This message has been edited by Zigrat (edited 02-21-2001).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
Verm, how to say this...
is a great thing I'm not in the game for now, because if I was I would be quite raged too. Ta152H1 before Fw190D9...and 3 german planes this version, so if the FW190D9 doesnt see the light now, it wont be here for a long time...
You have problems with the data charts ,but you have the planes itself. God knows how happy would I be even with a nonMW50 190D9, but it isnt here either.
I feel your pain (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif). BUt I dont think you are in such a bad situation than us LW, at least regarding the fighters.
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Originally posted by Verm: But can someone tell me why it is modeled with the worst possible flight test performance data available
(an issue that has been debated to death on this BBS)? Oh and why it mysteriously lacks its ground attack
rockets, in addition to its rightful dearth of external ordinance and fuel? Strange... but not really a pattern....
yet.
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Originally posted by Pyro: One thing that's been reinforced to me during this period is that we're a lot more productive when we're just focusing on work. Getting pissed off and demotivated is not the way to go into a final crunch and is only detrimental to progress. I guess I'd personally rather hear the inevitable whining when I have a little breathing space than when I'm under the gun trying to get something done. Sometimes it just really gets under my skin.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
I couldn't help but put these quotes side by side.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-21-2001).]
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Regarding the Yak-9UT, I asked Oleg Maddox about this some time ago, and his response was that of all the armament options available for this variant only one was used before war's end: NS-23. He wasn't absolutely sure about this, but that was his initial view on the subject. This, from a Russian aerodynamic engineer(turned game developer) living in Moscow with NII-VVS documents easily accessible. So, if you want to have armament options for the -9U, then there should only be one other than the standard ShVAK. All the others, NS-37, three B-20, etc., should probably be left on the shelf, since they never made to the frontline.
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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Ripsnort, letting aside that with that post you have only added flames in an unneccesary way...
I already have explained that I thougt that Raged=annoyed,sad.
When I saw your answer I took the translation book and saw that raged=infuriated,angry.
I will never be infuriated with a new LW plane on the set, be sure of that.
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Rip Why did you drag that toejam to this topic too? One wasted topic wasn't enough for you ?
edit: Read your first reply in
this topic.
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 02-21-2001).]
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RAM, stop trying to derail my thread! Go start your own. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Leonid, I would have no problem with that, if we found that too be the case. One 23mm cannon and two 20mm cannons would do the job just fine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Staga, Ram's a big boy, you stay outta my affairs, I'll stay outta yours.
If you consider me putting up a mirror to someones face and showing their own reflection, and you consider that a flame, then you're not as educated as I thought.
Sorry Verm, back to the regularly scheduled program.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-21-2001).]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Staga, Ram's a big boy, you stay outta my affairs, I'll stay outta yours.
If you consider me putting up a mirror to someones face and showing their own reflection, and you consider that a flame, then you're not as educated as I thought.
Sorry Verm, back to the regularly scheduled program.
Then go to e-mail or private chat, thank you.
I don't think we're here to listen your personal problems.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
If you consider me putting up a mirror to someones face and showing their own reflection, and you consider that a flame, then you're not as educated as I thought.
if you quote a porked message because a vocabulary error on a non-english speaking guy is making it appearing to be much worse than it was intended to be, then what you are doing is only to add unneccesary flames into a thread that had been turned quite fast into a decent one.
In other words: you are doing exactly what you critize in me: to start a flamefest and to hijack the thread. Good thing to do, right?.
BTW Staga is also a big boy and can give his opinion about what you achieved with your post as good anybody can do it.
I dont need anybody to defend me (I think you already saw it in my answer -now erased- to you in the "other" thread), but indeed he can say what he thinks on his own. And if he thinks, like me, that you have done an unnecesary flame in an otherwise civil thread, then I dont see why cant he say it.
Seems that you need to put flames on RAM in any way you can do it, just as some people here want to do. Once again you surprise me bigtime.
Sorry, verm, I had turned my posts into the topic of the thread, but I can't pass such a thing, sorry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
now, lets get back on topic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Rip if you got some "affairs" with RAM please use e-mail next time.
As long as you keep posting to this UBB your so called "affairs" with RAM those posts are public and so free to critics.
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I'm free to post what I'd like, and I chose to demonstrate Ram and Verm both whining, and how *some* of us get sick of it.
BTW, you got mail.
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Rip I just got your e-mails. Do you mind if I publish them in here?