Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Bark0 on March 17, 2009, 08:54:46 AM
-
the 38 is an awesome plane. It climbs like A balloon, has Great firepower and is a Great dive bomber.
But sadly I am "Not flying it right"
So how do I "Fly it right" so It can Be even better for me?
I understand that there may be different Opinions in this topic
:salute 1st. Lt Barko Edwards
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv260/Barkoed/8th%20Airforce%20Of%20AHII%20Album/p-38.jpg)
-
I too like the P-38, and I can't fly it either. :( But try search, (put p38 in search window) or just page through this (help and training) forum there are a ton of threads on it.
<S> 100Squid
-
The 38 is a very pilot dependent plane, while its overall performance envelope is good its exploitable by most planes in the set. The flip side is that the 38 can exploit some aspect of the flight envelope for most planes it meets. However learning those aspects of the game takes time. I am far from an expert in the 38 but I'll give you the following thoughts I use as I continue to learn the plane...
1) When in doubt take the fight up
The 38 has excellent performance in the vertical, obviously anytime you go up you risk being a hanging curve ball...but up works more often then down IMO
2) When in doubt turn right
The 38 doesn't have the torque issues most planes have. Since most planes "pull" to the left going right is tougher at lower speeds. Combining both 1 & 2 is often a winning combination in the 38
3) Never ever "flat turn" a 38 more then 180 degree's. The 38 doesn't have the best pure turn and normally either a bit of nose up or nose down aspect works wonders. The 38 should be flown in the vertical as much as possible. If we view a "flat" fight as this[ - ] and a "looping fight as this [ I ] then we ideally want this [ X ].
4 Use the force
The 38 has tremendous rudder authority, this allows you to swing the nose thru a huge arc. With the nose come the guns...all of them. I can hit some ungodly FQ shots by stomping the rudder and popping off a few rounds. Do not confuse this with a Head On, in a dog fight both sides have to respect the "gun cone" of an opposing fighter. A true front quarter shot (or the threat of one) can influence a fight dramatically by forcing a bogy off of his ideal line. Do not chase shots that arent there or give up good position/E for a marginal shot, but realize that this is a strength of the 38
5) Flaps/rudder/throttle
The 38 needs to use them a lot....all of them. Get used to the following three things...
1) every turn starts with rudder
2) nose down turn normally off gas and 1/2 notchs of flaps
3) nose up turn on gas and clean or 1 notch flaps
You can use proper positioning to eliminate alot of the above (I know Murdr doesnt ever like to come of the gas if he can avoid it) but to me its essential to learn to use the above...
6) Lag pursuit
Basically having the nose pointed behind the con. The 38 is at heart an E fighter, if you pull lead to often and to soon you give up your greatest strength. By learning to use low/high yoyo's and lag pursuit (con in front up view) in combination with out of plane Maneuvering {thats the "X" we want to fly when he is either "-" or "I"} and using the 38's "power turret" {rudder induced yaw} you learn to stalk your target as much as fight him...
Again just 1 persons perspective and as always your milage may vary :D
-
Define right? Whats the right way to fly is how you get the most fun out of it imo.
Wanna turn n burn with it - see Guppy 35 (just dont expect to come back, or with all your plane parts if you do :D)
Wanna keep it fast, work the angles, see a whole host of trainers, 38 pilots who are excellent with it - one will be along shortly.
Wurzel
-
Well, for me, "Right" is not stalling the plane, puting it into a spin and crashing as soon as the first tracer zips past my head. Giving the kill to some random numbers guy. :huh
-
:D :D :D
Been there, done that - sorry, wasnt being cranky - just curious as to what right meant is all
Wurzel
-
ty all for the info so far. I do have some questions
1) Any Particular gun sights for it besides the Gunstar?
2) What is the Difference between the G J And L Besides the Dive flaps, ords and Glass?
3) How do I contact S.A.P.P?
4) Can you bail out of it in Real life without Hurting yourself?
Again Ty for the info so far
-
ty all for the info so far. I do have some questions
1) Any Particular gun sights for it besides the Gunstar?
Which ever one your comfortable with.
2) What is the Difference between the G J And L Besides the Dive flaps, ords and Glass?
G is the most nimble....if you want to call a 38 nimble :) J is the all around best, does fighting and divebombing well. L seems to fly a bit heavier than the J, but is better for divebombing with the dive flaps.
3) How do I contact S.A.P.P?
We are VERY hard to find. Enter the Enchanted forest, turn right at the forth oak tree, walk 100 paces, stop and turn in place 3 times muttering "the 38 is leet", look to the right of the elm and leave a message under the pile of stones you find there...... Someone will contact you.
4) Can you bail out of it in Real life without Hurting yourself?
Again Ty for the info so far
you have as good a chance as in any other plane.
-
We are VERY hard to find. Enter the Enchanted forest, turn right at the forth oak tree, walk 100 paces, stop and turn in place 3 times muttering "the 38 is leet", look to the right of the elm and leave a message under the pile of stones you find there...... Someone will contact you.
PM me a map?
:noid
-
I second Snaphook's entire post. Except I'm a bit heavier on the flaps....I'm going to have to talk with him about that :) .
-Zap
SAPP is bad
-
Snaphook explained it prettygood and is a good foundation to start on with the P-38. Keep in mind that the P-38 is not a beginner's plane and you'll save yourself a lot of frustration in learning how to fly in one of the more forgiving planes. Once you've got the hang of the game and the flight model then transition to the Lightning.
ack-ack
-
I second Snaphook's entire post. Except I'm a bit heavier on the flaps....I'm going to have to talk with him about that :) .
-Zap
SAPP is bad
Zap
I don't really know where flaps go from good to bad. I feel like once I get forced to dirty the plane up completely I'm at the point that I'm looking for some "pilot stuff" and therefor already "screwed the pooch" so to speak. As it relates to learning the 38 my thoughts were along the lines of the things you need to learn vs when/how to make the thing shine. To me the 38 requires a better understanding of lift vector management then any plane in the game. All the items lifted relate directly to that in some regard.
To reach a point that you really understand that at "point X" you need to be 30 degree's out of plane (above) and 20 degree lag pursuit but that your then going to invert and move your lift vector to 40 degree lead (ahead) to drive the elbow if the bogey does "A" or going continue into a climbing right hand chandel if bogey does "B"...and that its all different if the bogey is in a different ride is tough.
I think thats what really makes the spitty, lala, hurricane so appealing, all you need is a little sign that says "if you see bogey do X". Basically you fly the same fight to a large degree. With the 38 its not only plane dependent, but pilot dependent as well....
-
I too like the P-38, and I can't fly it either. :( But try search, (put p38 in search window) or just page through this (help and training) forum there are a ton of threads on it.
<S> 100Squid
I LOVE IT, don't feel as if i fly it all that well, although i've been told i fly it fairly well.
best advice....first and foremost....be a stubborn bastage. don't fly anything else, regardless of how your ego feels.
then take a few hops in the training arena. those are the two most important things you can do to improve in her.
good luck, and welcome to the madness sir!
-
The 38 is a very pilot dependent plane, while its overall performance envelope is good its exploitable by most planes in the set. The flip side is that the 38 can exploit some aspect of the flight envelope for most planes it meets. However learning those aspects of the game takes time. I am far from an expert in the 38 but I'll give you the following thoughts I use as I continue to learn the plane...
1) When in doubt take the fight up
The 38 has excellent performance in the vertical, obviously anytime you go up you risk being a hanging curve ball...but up works more often then down IMO
2) When in doubt turn right
The 38 doesn't have the torque issues most planes have. Since most planes "pull" to the left going right is tougher at lower speeds. Combining both 1 & 2 is often a winning combination in the 38
3) Never ever "flat turn" a 38 more then 180 degree's. The 38 doesn't have the best pure turn and normally either a bit of nose up or nose down aspect works wonders. The 38 should be flown in the vertical as much as possible. If we view a "flat" fight as this[ - ] and a "looping fight as this [ I ] then we ideally want this [ X ].
4 Use the force
The 38 has tremendous rudder authority, this allows you to swing the nose thru a huge arc. With the nose come the guns...all of them. I can hit some ungodly FQ shots by stomping the rudder and popping off a few rounds. Do not confuse this with a Head On, in a dog fight both sides have to respect the "gun cone" of an opposing fighter. A true front quarter shot (or the threat of one) can influence a fight dramatically by forcing a bogy off of his ideal line. Do not chase shots that arent there or give up good position/E for a marginal shot, but realize that this is a strength of the 38this is a mistake i seem to make often.....i did it against you in mw a few weeks ago, in your a20. i landed what looked like a few nice rounds in your right wing, but i think that shot ultimately cost me the fight.
5) Flaps/rudder/throttle
The 38 needs to use them a lot....all of them. Get used to the following three things...
1) every turn starts with rudder
2) nose down turn normally off gas and 1/2 notchs of flaps
3) nose up turn on gas and clean or 1 notch flaps
You can use proper positioning to eliminate alot of the above (I know Murdr doesnt ever like to come of the gas if he can avoid it) but to me its essential to learn to use the above...
6) Lag pursuit
Basically having the nose pointed behind the con. The 38 is at heart an E fighter, if you pull lead to often and to soon you give up your greatest strength. By learning to use low/high yoyo's and lag pursuit (con in front up view) in combination with out of plane Maneuvering {thats the "X" we want to fly when he is either "-" or "I"} and using the 38's "power turret" {rudder induced yaw} you learn to stalk your target as much as fight him...
Again just 1 persons perspective and as always your milage may vary :D
-
Zap
I don't really know where flaps go from good to bad. I feel like once I get forced to dirty the plane up completely I'm at the point that I'm looking for some "pilot stuff" and therefor already "screwed the pooch" so to speak. As it relates to learning the 38 my thoughts were along the lines of the things you need to learn vs when/how to make the thing shine. To me the 38 requires a better understanding of lift vector management then any plane in the game. All the items lifted relate directly to that in some regard.
To reach a point that you really understand that at "point X" you need to be 30 degree's out of plane (above) and 20 degree lag pursuit but that your then going to invert and move your lift vector to 40 degree lead (ahead) to drive the elbow if the bogey does "A" or going continue into a climbing right hand chandel if bogey does "B"...and that its all different if the bogey is in a different ride is tough.
I think thats what really makes the spitty, lala, hurricane so appealing, all you need is a little sign that says "if you see bogey do X". Basically you fly the same fight to a large degree. With the 38 its not only plane dependent, but pilot dependent as well....
i feel shes good to about 30 degrees. after that, they slow me down so much, i have trouble getting my speed back
-
The P38 sucks and isn't worth the time to fly it.
'Nuff said.
-
The P38 sucks
'Nuff said.
ooonly to the guy that;s got one on his six. :aok
-
For best 38 advice do as follows:
1.) Form a squad of fellow 38 new guys, "The Unflappable" or something like that.
2.) Put your squads name in the magic hat or whatever for Delirium's Traveling Road Show.
3.) Wait and spend time in the TA with Ren (or any of our other fine trainers) on the basics.
4.) Clear your schedule for two whole weeks of personal 38 training. (Film and notes for optimum results)
It's that easy :aok
-Zap
The P38 sucks and isn't worth the time to fly it.
'Nuff said.
He's really friendly, I swear.
-
Also keep in mind that there are several Squads that only fly the P38. You may find it helpful to fly with one of them for a while. Feel free to check out the 113th Lucky Strikes at www.113thluckystrikes.com, come fly with us on any Saturday evening as a Knight in the Late War Arena, Vox 113.
-
As a dedicated P38G driver I can show you how to break, burn, wreck, crash and auger em better then anyone else in Aces High :)
-
Saw this post earlier today but I was at the office and not in a position to right a lengthy response. Now that I get back to I see most of what I was going to say has already been posted. I think humble/snaphook has some very valid points. If I win a 1v1 encounter odds are good that my opponent did as much to shoot himself down as I did, I try to set up angles that require the other guy to have to haul his plane around as much as possible and bleed E then take the fight uphill where the 38 shines.
I'm flying in the MidWar arena more often than not these days but if you see me online you're welcome to tag along and see if we can't get ourselves killed (which happens more often than not). :)
-
I too am a 38 enthusiast for now. I do love flying it and want to become extremely better in it. Thanks for all the good info! :salute
-
The P38 sucks and isn't worth the time to fly it.
'Nuff said.
And it took you what... 60.000 hours to figure that out? ;)
Tex
-
I have had a fascination with P-38 all of my life. I do a fairly decent job with it and love the huge platform that it provides. The only thing I hate is that it's a large target and pilot wounds seem to be a way of life.:noid :rock
-
To reach a point that you really understand that at "point X" you need to be 30 degree's out of plane (above) and 20 degree lag pursuit but that your then going to invert and move your lift vector to 40 degree lead (ahead) to drive the elbow if the bogey does "A" or going continue into a climbing right hand chandel if bogey does "B"...and that its all different if the bogey is in a different ride is tough.
I swear I heard someone strike a bell with a ball peen hammer. :rolleyes: Drive the elbow?
My teammates told me to stay away from the 38 but I can't......... :pray :mad: :pray
My SA, throttle, and flap management sucks, :( once I get a good grip on those, THEN, I can work on vector and E management. :huh
If the furball is at the enemy base I do the 38 thing, and get shot down alot.....
If the furball is at my base I usually grab a spit due to getting shot down quickly in the 38 with no speed.
I will be checking out the 113th <S> and spending more time in the TA.
Thanks all,
100Squid
-
Basically your lift vector can be viewed as the view thru the top of the canopy. If your in a better turning plane the generic "put your lift vector on him" is often the best way to win a fight. Now for a pilot in an inferior plane (in the sense of flat turn) anytime he's in plane he's losing position. However for the most part planes have a type of total balance and performance in one area often takes away something in another area. Control surface inputs cause drag, a wing optimized for turning might be less effective at unusual attitude or high AoA.
So while the pilot in the "turn machine" just has to keep his "up view" on the target the pilot of the "floating barge" {my name for the 38} has to work the plane like a concert pianist. The term "driving the elbow" is used differently, initially its thought to refer to a pilot "hand fighting" (using his hands to show relative position of two planes) with the thought that the trailing (superior positioned) plane was at the elbow of the leading plane.
However the term was used in an entirely different meaning by Robert Johnson and other Jug (P-47) drivers in WW2. They would use the Jugs zoom and roll in the vertical vs flat turning 109's. By going up and assuming a lag position they could then use a manuever called a lag displacement roll (they called it a "vector attack roll" I think but basically the same thing applied for different purpose) to move the lift vector of the jug well ahead of the 109 to a point about 1/2 thru the turn. A plane can roll much faster then it can fly thru a turn so the jug would come screaming down on top of the 109 well positioned for either a shot or to convert back to a zoom climb if countered.
This is the move Johnson used to defeat a spitfire in a somewhat famous "duel" over england as well.
-
Is the Vector Attack Roll the same as the Clover Leaf, and do you find this maneuver usefull in the game?
-
Basically your lift vector can be viewed as the view thru the top of the canopy. If your in a better turning plane the generic "put your lift vector on him" is often the best way to win a fight. Now for a pilot in an inferior plane (in the sense of flat turn) anytime he's in plane he's losing position. However for the most part planes have a type of total balance and performance in one area often takes away something in another area. Control surface inputs cause drag, a wing optimized for turning might be less effective at unusual attitude or high AoA.
So while the pilot in the "turn machine" just has to keep his "up view" on the target the pilot of the "floating barge" {my name for the 38} has to work the plane like a concert pianist. The term "driving the elbow" is used differently, initially its thought to refer to a pilot "hand fighting" (using his hands to show relative position of two planes) with the thought that the trailing (superior positioned) plane was at the elbow of the leading plane.
However the term was used in an entirely different meaning by Robert Johnson and other Jug (P-47) drivers in WW2. They would use the Jugs zoom and roll in the vertical vs flat turning 109's. By going up and assuming a lag position they could then use a manuever called a lag displacement roll (they called it a "vector attack roll" I think but basically the same thing applied for different purpose) to move the lift vector of the jug well ahead of the 109 to a point about 1/2 thru the turn. A plane can roll much faster then it can fly thru a turn so the jug would come screaming down on top of the 109 well positioned for either a shot or to convert back to a zoom climb if countered.
This is the move Johnson used to defeat a spitfire in a somewhat famous "duel" over england as well.
Got a film of that BFM. I use it alot in my 190s. Work well :) Will post once i locate it
-
Is the Vector Attack Roll the same as the Clover Leaf, and do you find this maneuver usefull in the game?
Two totally different moves. My understanding of the cloverleaf is that your basically in plane and varying your G loading. Basically easing the stick pressure off and on creating a variable rate turn. To me this is inferior in nature since it maintains an in plane scope of maneuver. I'm a proponent of being out of plane unless you have a specific advantage at a given moment by being in plane.
The "vector roll" is an out of plane maneuver that entails moving up out of plane to a flat turning con and actually rolling away from the con until in an inverted position you've got your lift vector pointed ahead of the bogeys projected flight path. At that point you use your elevator to pull thru in line with your lift vector. This allows a plane like a P-47 (or P-38) to use zoom, roll and elevator authority to offset an inferior flat turn rate as well as properly manage speed and AOT to avoid a potential overshoot.
-
Is the Vector Attack Roll the same as the Clover Leaf, and do you find this maneuver usefull in the game?
As snaphook pointed out, two different maneuvers. Yes, the Clover Leaf can be useful as a last ditch maneuver to try and pull your nuts out of the fire. You take advantage of the superior P-38's low/stall speed handling characteristics but this by no means is a maneuver that will guarantee victory. Usually, if you find yourself in this situation is because you screwed the pooch somewhere down the line but it can and does work.
ack-ack
-
The "vector roll" is an out of plane maneuver that entails moving up out of plane to a flat turning con and actually rolling away from the con until in an inverted position you've got your lift vector pointed ahead of the bogeys projected flight path. At that point you use your elevator to pull thru in line with your lift vector. This allows a plane like a P-47 (or P-38) to use zoom, roll and elevator authority to offset an inferior flat turn rate as well as properly manage speed and AOT to avoid a potential overshoot.
I am having a hard time picturing this, do you by chance have a video clip of it?
-
I'm sure I do somewhere but I can film it for you later tonight if I dont have one handy...
-
That would be cool, thank you very much. :salute
-
I absolutely luv forkys! I shoot every one I can find... :D
I'm also partial to Laffies and Hogs and Spits and just about anything I see!!!
Nuthin like a pair of 38's in tight formation....luv em.
Lift vector...hmmm...I remember sometin bout it...
When properly used you rarely trade energy for a shot. You roll to position your plane to advantage. Because you roll your joystick mostly stays in a neutral position and not back in your lap. Hmmm, I think that has sometin ta do with maintaining a high level of energy without working at it. Do that in a 38 or any plane for that matter and you just took fighting to another plane (pardon the pun).
Humble mentioned a famous fight in which the guy rolled to "cut across this other guys hemisphere".
I also vaguely remember sumtin bout an egg...and a pencil....sumtin bout it telling you how a planes actually flies....for a donut I might remember it....
Hope this helps
Ren
Aces High Flying Corps
-
I absolutely luv forkys! I shoot every one I can find... :D
I'm also partial to Laffies and Hogs and Spits and just about anything I see!!!
Nuthin like a pair of 38's in tight formation....luv em.
Lift vector...hmmm...I remember sometin bout it...
When properly used you rarely trade energy for a shot. You roll to position your plane to advantage. Because you roll your joystick mostly stays in a neutral position and not back in your lap. Hmmm, I think that has sometin ta do with maintaining a high level of energy without working at it. Do that in a 38 or any plane for that matter and you just took fighting to another plane (pardon the pun).
Humble mentioned a famous fight in which the guy rolled to "cut across this other guys hemisphere".
I also vaguely remember sumtin bout an egg...and a pencil....sumtin bout it telling you how a planes actually flies....for a donut I might remember it....
Hope this helps
Ren
Aces High Flying Corps
I unfurtunatley, haven't had time to get online since you worked with me in the ta on that.....but i have flown the low alt p38vsspit9 and ki84 mission......and have been trying that turn you showed me. i can't make it work in there.....yet
i always end up with 2 of the 4 on my tail......i try to used the verticle against them, but they seem to hang in there with me. they react differently than the real pile-its do.
hopefully i'll get on again soon....
thanks again for the help dude!
-
LT,
Reread my very 1st sentence...Unfortunately, the forked tail devil is such a big (read huge) target that if you get one low and slowed down for any length of time the magnets in the noses of every other plane within 10 miles automatically takes the stick out of the pilots hands and beelines right to the fight. Ergo, 4-5 on yer tail...
Suggest until you get more comfortable with her turning capabilities you carefully chose your fights, use the vertical a lot and use some of that wonderful SA to determine very quickly when it's time to exit and come back.
Also, remember what we worked on in the TA. It works on every plane regardless of type. The only difference is the limits each plane imposes on you but the tactics are the same. You can still cut a hemisphere to smoke a zeke.
:salute
Hope this helps.
Ren
Aces High Training Corps