Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Vermillion on June 17, 2000, 04:09:00 PM
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There has been alot of talk about what Japanese bomber we would like to see added to Aces High.
Anyone with experience from AW or WB's, can tell you that the Mitsubishi G4M "Betty" bomber is sorely lacking, and will make an extremely poor arena aircraft. Basically its suitable only as a "target drone" in scenario's and historical arenas (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Some have suggested the Kawanishi H8K "Emily" and while this aircraft certainly has impressive performance stats (for a Japanese Bomber), and is the closest thing the Japanese had to a 4 engine "bomber" and has excellent 20mm defensive guns. It is actually a 4 engined Flying Boat, intended for long range reconnaissance. This just makes it hard for me to think of this plane as the first japanese "bomber".
So I would like to introduce you to the Nakajima P1Y "Ginga" (Frances) an incredibly impressive late war (late 44-45) medium bomber (1,100 aircraft produced and saw combat).
(http://214th.com/ww2/japan/p1y/p1y1c.jpg)
(http://214th.com/ww2/japan/p1y/p1y1a.jpg)
(http://214th.com/ww2/japan/p1y/p1y1b.jpg)
This incredible bomber had a maximum speed of 355 mph at 20,015ft (300mph at SL), could climb to 20k in 11.3 minutes (initial ROC 2,000 ft/min), and could carry between 2,231 to 3,525 lbs of bombs (depending on variant)or a single 1,764lb torpedo. It could even carry drop tanks for a total range of 3200 nautical miles.
It had 10mm of armor plate for the pilot (none for bombardier/gunners) and self sealing fuel tanks. Which should help its survivability immensely.
Plus aesthetically, its the most visually appealing Japanese bomber of the war (just an added bonus (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ).
However, its very impressive performance is somewhat offset by its relative lack of defenive armament, a single Type 99 20mm cannon in the nose, and another in a dorsal turret (sometimes replaced by a dual mount 12.7mm HMG).
Actually this bomber would fit perfectly into the AH planeset. It would be the fastest bomber by far, adequate toughness, and great climb, but these would be offset by having a relatively small bomb load (slightly smaller to equal to the B-26) and having the least defensive armament of all the bombers in the game.
A perfectly balanced, yet surviveable bomber in the late war AH arena. And it even had a night fighter variant, which could be useful if that is ever added to the game.
The only other Japanese bomber that even comes close is the Mitsubishi Ki-67 "Peggy", and even it is a distant second.
Click below for the full stats on this great bomber.
Nakajima P1Y "Ginga" (Frances) (http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/ijna/p1y.htm)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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If we can't have the Nanzan (The 4 engined buff the Japanese were developing) Then I would surely go for a Frances. Nice pics Vermillion.
(http://www.devildogs.com/vmf111/sdsig2.gif)
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Lighten up Frances. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Ki-67 a distant second? No way, at least it would have a decent chance of defending itself.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
Most plans are just inaccurate predictions.
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I don't know Pyro (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
While the "Peggy" is a respectable bomber, I don't think its defensive armament is much better. It only has an additional single 12.7mm MG in the tail, and one each of 12.7mm MG in each side (these are only marginally helpful IMO at least in comparison to the added benefit of a tail gun). And the Frances has a 20mm nose gun, where the Peggy has a 12.7mm MG.
Plus it gives up 15-20mph to the Frances (depending on which source you believe), and needs an additional 3 minutes to 20,000ft.
A smart Frances driver could almost always keep you in his cone of fire for his tail gun (a nice and lethal 20mm at that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ), and with that much speed (for a bomber anyways) it will take you quite a while to setup effective attack runs, and the tail chase is gonna be a long one. The "gunner" benefit in AH would really hurt the attacking fighters in this case.
Hell, I can do this pretty much with the B26 right now, to the slower fighters in the game such as the Spitfire and N1K2. The Frances would give fits to anything but the very fastest of interceptors.
The Peggy would be nice, but I personally would still prefer the Frances (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I like the idea of a Japanese bomber outrunning Wildcats. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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go pyro!!!
actually while i would love to see any of those 2 buffs make into AH (the 27th Sentai... is carefully monitoring the Japanese playset, waiting for it to properly fill out)
ive gotta go with PYRO on this one...
on paper they both seem really similar but in photos/combat reports, the ki-67 has a more "fast/extra-rugged b-25" feel to it, while the francis seems to fall more on the "mosquito" side of the buff family tree...
its a tough choice, but id go with the ki-67. It gets listed EVERYWHERE as japan's best late-war buff... its gotta have some good points in there somewhere
-bigred
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Yep Frances is a pretty lady. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'd still rather have a H8K2 "Emily" as the first Japanese bomber.
Sisu
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Emily, Mavis,(Another flying boat)Francis, or KI-67? Why any one of these would be an asset and a draw to AH. Let us not forget however that eventually we will have CV forces to consider also. So when you pick & choose planes from the IJN stable lets not forget the Carrier attack planes.
However, I have to admit, haveing a 20mm stinger in the tail certainly sounds interesting. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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LOL!! Sundog you really confused me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I looked up the Nanzan, and wondered "What the hell does Sundog want that plane for??". The Nanzan, btw, is a single engined submarine borne attack bomber. Then I figured out that you were talking about the Nakajima G8N Renzan ("Rita"). Very interesting bird !! Fast (368mph), dual 20mm in dorsal, ventral, and tail, and dual 12.7mm MG elsewhere. Downside were small bomb load (2,000 lbs), and only 4 of them were made, which kind of puts it into that "what if" category. Very interesting though.
bigred, I think you have the gist of it. The Ki67 Peggy is more in the fast B25/B26 ish category, where the P1Y Frances is more in the Mosquito category. Both are very capable bombers, but we have the B26 to fit that "niche" in the planeset, while on the other hand we don't have anything like the Frances or the Mosquito. So I guess thats why I prefer the Frances. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And before all you British plane nuts jump in and try to steal the thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Screaming for the Mosquito instead, your getting your Lancaster so be happy. Plus the Mosquito don't have a 20mm tail stinger (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 06-18-2000).]
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Psst.... Ju 88S-3 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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It's moot really, but I have Renzan's bombload to be 4,000 kg.
Here are the production numbers of the various candidates if that's a factor:
H8K Emily 167
PiY Frances 1,100
B7A Grace 110
G8N Rita 4
Ki-67 Peggy 707
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Yes and No Manx (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) We're both right depending on how you view it.
I went back to check because that number looked awful small to me as well.
From Francillons book, for the Renzan it says...
Bomb Load-Normal: four 250kg bombs (551 lbs)
-Maximum: two 2,000 kg (4,409lb) bombs
I just took the "normal" load number I guess in the first post, but I guess the technically correct answer was a bombload between 1,000 kg to 4,000 kg (2,200 lbs to 8,800 lbs)
Of course with a total production of four, who can say what "normal" actually was (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 06-18-2000).]
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hey verm, did some more digging on the ki-67/p1y1...
check this out....
ki-67 peggy
(traditional split flaps on wings)
crew-7
weight (empty) 19,068 lb
P1Y1 francis
(fowler flaps PLUS dive brakes)
crew-3
weight (empty) 14,600
im starting to think that in operational use, these 2 birds would be VASTLY different, the peggy does in fact seem very (b-25/a-26) in use("catch me if you can and im tough as nails when you do"). The P1Y1 is really making me think "mosquito-level bombing, OH, CRAP im getting jumped, lets JABO this baby vroooomm" in open arena use....
ive got to admit, the fowlerflaps/dive brakes REALLY surprized me... im thinking the francis is SUBSTANTIALLY more maneuverable, with the peggy substantially tougher.
-bigred (now really wanting both buffs)
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I agree and vote for the Frances. AH has done a good job of modelling planes that are not a straight overlap with WB but still have high historical relevance.
The Frances is then an alternative to the Mossie, and with 1100 produced, it is formally relevant to any planeset.
In addition, it's survivable in the MA, which is a huge plus. It complements the bombers already there, and it's an Axis bomber, something that is needed for any sort of scenarios.
A great choice.
XX
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Considering Possible Frances Tactics..
'Hmmmmmm.. That 20mm in the nose is NOT fixed. It's 'gunned...'
'This bird looks to be very manuverable.. fast.. controllable airspeed in the dive....' (assuming it was/had)
BREIFING: ".. we level bomb the hell outta the dump from 22k at 350... that works. Then; all light and ready ta fight, lets put a gunner in the nose with that flex-mounted little savage 20mm pop gun. Tell the pilot to drop from on top and turn like hell with anything right down to the deck, then run out.. "
Mommy!
Hang
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Can we get the version that carried this little thing? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap22.jpg)
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Yes Juzz, Hell Yes!
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Down boy! Down! Bad funked!
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 06-19-2000).]
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Juzz, you got any hard performance numbers on the Ju-88S3 ?
I keep hearing that its a really fast Ju-88, but I have never seen any numbers on it. Was curious.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Nothing concrete. Somewhere in the region of 380mph. There were 3 different engines: S-1 had BMW 801G, S-2 had BMW 801TJ, and S-3 had Jumo 213A. I think they all had GM-1, so any version would be good to 30,000ft. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This site: Die Luftwaffe (http://home.inreach.com/rickylaw/luftwaffe/luftwaffe.html), has some numbers for the Ju 88S-1. (http://home.inreach.com/rickylaw/luftwaffe/bomber/ju88/ju88tka.html)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 06-19-2000).]
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So did any of the "S" versions actually make it into full scale production or were they just prototypes?
None of my books even mention a "S" at all.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Ginga or Mary Ann?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The S-1 had a top speed of 379 mph at 26k, powered by 2 BMW 801G-2 engines both with GM-1 boost they produced 1,430 hp at 24k with GM-1 it could also carry up to 4,406 lb of bombs.
However, its good performance sacraficed defensive armament, it only had 1 13mm MG 151 facing rearward with only 250 rounds.
The first S-1 initial production models were delivered in early 1944 albeit in small numbers, I don't have a number on how many were produced.
The S-2 was actually very impressive, it was powered by 2 supercharged BMW 801TG and produced 1,500 hp at 40,000 ft. S-2 also upgraded to a pair of 7.92mm MG 81 instead of the S-1s single MG 151, bomb load was upgraded to 6,614 lb by the addition of a wooden pannier 'tray' which was originally from the JU-88 A-15. A very small number of S-2s were delivered during the spring and summer of 44.
The S-3 was an upgraded version with two Junker Jumo 213A but with the bulky GM-1. Only a few of these aircraft were delivered before the cancellation of the S program in the late summer of 44.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 06-19-2000).]
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Thanks Nath (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Impressive numbers
Come on banana, its a proven fact that most guys prefer Mary Ann (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Hmm, now that you mention it,
"Mary": Mitsubishi Ki-30 (Type 97 light bomber)
"Ann": Kawasaki Ki-32 (Type 98 light bomber)
They were developed as a result of the '36 competition and were very close in performance.
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nice verm
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Oberstleutnant LJK_KämpferAs
Kommandeur von II Gruppe
ExecutivOffizier von LuftJägerKorps
www.LuftJagerKorps.com
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pea-you-en-tee!
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Hey Nath, the MG 151 isn't a 13mm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Just sayin' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig