Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SkyRock on March 20, 2009, 12:40:30 PM
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with .50 cals.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f9cqhuARrM&feature=related
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then why can we not take it out no AH?
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then why can we not take it out no AH?
Our Tigers do not have the fuel trailers to catch on fire.
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Usually don't read youboob comments but some guy is typing:
Robert111 (1 week ago)
The truth:
A.) .50 Cal. can't penetrate Tiger underside hull-armor even if shot point-blank directly.
B.) If roadway were made of rolled steel plate sufficiently hard to deflect .50 cal, the bullet would be smashed up/partially shrapnel and have enough energy to penetrate maybe 1.0" wood, not 1.5" rolled steel plate! LOL!
C.) There was no such thing as tank "fuel trailers" ever towed by any Tiger tank ever. Such a thing never existed.
D.) Video narrator is a blowhard common idiot.
lol it's actually quite a hilarious arguement in comments. some people need to get out more.
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I believe the pilot was mistaking Panzer IV's (instead of Tigers) with the towed trailers.
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then why can we not take it out no AH?
Too many perks for 50 cals to take it out. My guess anyways.
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That didn't look anything like a confirmed kill. There was some black smoke at the end, but that could have been anything.
When the Brits did a post battle analysis they found one tank that had been knocked out by 20mm cannon fire from aircraft, all other tanks destroyed by aircraft were destroyed by bombs or rocket fire. None were destroyed by heavy or light machine gun fire.
It didn't happen.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhreZIk07pI&feature=related
:rock
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Ho-lee noodles- what do they hit at 2:10? :eek:
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Ho-lee noodles- what do they hit at 2:10? :eek:
Fuel or Ammo depot?
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That didn't look anything like a confirmed kill. There was some black smoke at the end, but that could have been anything.
When the Brits did a post battle analysis they found one tank that had been knocked out by 20mm cannon fire from aircraft, all other tanks destroyed by aircraft were destroyed by bombs or rocket fire. None were destroyed by heavy or light machine gun fire.
It didn't happen.
I don't recall if it was the '98 WB or AW Con but there was a speaker that was a Mustang pilot during the war and was later shot down and spent his POW years in a concentration camp (he was Jewish). Anyway, he was asked a question about this and his reply was that they did try and ricochet their bullets under the tanks, not to kill the tanks but rather to get at the troops that would sometimes take refuge under the tanks during air attacks. Sometimes he said they would get lucky and hit the fuel trailer that was being towed but he never recalled one instance where they actually knocked out a tank with their .50s.
ack-ack
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so the WW2 vet who actually did it in real life, is a liar..
gotcha. Or maybe his memory is fuzzy... or whatever.. mabey it was a panzer... or whatever...
you cant kill ANY armor in this game with 50 cals, no matter what.
:rolleyes:
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D.) Video narrator is a blowhard common idiot.
I find it funny that an actual air combat vet is called a blowhard common idiot on a BBS filled with cartoon pilot blowhard common idiots. :lol
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I find it funny that an actual air combat vet is called a blowhard common idiot on a BBS filled with cartoon pilot blowhard common idiots. :lol
Was on the video page.
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Here we go again on this issue I had bought this up a long time ago & was assaulted no end.
I have spoken to this fellow. http://www.p47pilots.com/P47-Pilots.cfm?c=incP47BiographyHome.cfm&vm=BIO&pilotid=80&p=Joseph%20P.%20Celauro he to confirmed that they did do this & from what he recalled they were instructed to so on tanks. He said the most effective thing they used on tanks was napalm as it burnt all the oxygen up & collapsed the lungs of the crews & essentially cooked the crew inside the tank as they could net get out due to the flames. He told me you have to remember that with 3 squadrons from a fighter group all doing this at the same time on a column it was guaranteed to destroy all vehicles no matter what they were.
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Bullets will ricochet off of any surface, all the matters is the angle.
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They are uber. :noid
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Our Tigers do not have the fuel trailers to catch on fire.
That's the first thing I caught in the vid.
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so the WW2 vet who actually did it in real life, is a liar..
Listen to it again. He didn't say they killed the tank, he said they were TOLD to do it that way. Big difference :aok
Never been in the army, have you? What you are told is effective and what is reality is not always the same thing.
you cant kill ANY armor in this game with 50 cals, no matter what.
You can knock a turret on the weaker tanks with it. You can track them. You can kill lighter armor like the M16
The .50 cals of the day didn't have the power to get through heavier armor except maybe at point blank range with concentrated fire. Notice how "concentrated" the fire was in that video, the pilot wasn't any better of a shot that I am :rofl
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I have been an armor buff all my life (46 yrs old). During that time I have studied the subject extensively. I build museum quality models so therefore I have to study every nut and bolt on a vehicle I model. I probably own 200+ books on Tanks.
I have never seen a single photo nor have I ever read a single reference to Tiger Tanks towing fuel trailers. The only real use of Tanks with fuel trailers was very early in the War. These were mostly used in the invasion of France and to some extent the invasion of Russia. Fuel trailers were mostly used by Panzer IV-C's with very limited use by Panzer IV-D's. By the time the IV-D was out in significant numbers the practice had been mostly abandoned. I have seen a few Panzer III-E's with fuel trailers. These photos's are extremely rare. There was also some limited use of Fuel Trailers by the Africa Corps but this too was very limited, and very early.
Fuel trailers were phased out and Wehrmacht went to welding on racks to hold countless "jerry" cans. Many Panzer III-F's, G's and H's were covered in "jerry" can racks. As well as countless Panzer IV-E's and F1's, also many StugIII-F's and G's were buried in fuel cans and drums.
By the time this pilot was attacking German armored formations on the move, fuel shortages were the order of the day. Most tankers were hard pressed to have fuel in their internal tanks, much less have fuel trailers or lots of "Jerry" cans stowed on board. At this point of the War there may have been some tank, somewhere, towing a trailer, but this practice was far from wide spread.
Due to the fear that Allied soldiers had of Tigers Tanks, many many times Panzer IV's were reported to be Tigers. In fact the British did not allow the phrase "Tiger Tank" to be used on the radio due to the panic those words caused. Tigers were being seen everywhere by everybody. I have watched this film very carefully he does appear to strafe a Tiger II. If you watch carefully, you will see that what is burning is on a different stretch of the road from where the King Tiger was moving.
"Bullets bouncing off the road and hitting the underbelly of a Tiger tank?" This could be possible but not probable. If you take a moment to look at a Tiger Tank or Tiger II you see that the "road" wheels are interlocked (overlap). This leaves very little room for bullets to pass through and strike the road surface. In fact from the side I would say it's close to impossible. If you look carefully at a Panzer IV you will see there is lots of room between the "road" wheels for bullets to bounce up so it may be be possible to impact the bottom of a Panzer IV using this method. From the data I have read on .50 cal ability to penetrate Armor plate. A .50cal round would not be able to penetrate a Tigers bottom armor under ideal circumstances, much less after bouncing off the pavement.
Also I have seen countless photos of wrecked Tiger tanks and I have never seen a photo of one that was disabled from underneath by anything except a mine....or a demolotion charge.
Helm ...out
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Here we go again on this issue I had bought this up a long time ago & was assaulted no end.
I have spoken to this fellow. http://www.p47pilots.com/P47-Pilots.cfm?c=incP47BiographyHome.cfm&vm=BIO&pilotid=80&p=Joseph%20P.%20Celauro he to confirmed that they did do this & from what he recalled they were instructed to so on tanks. He said the most effective thing they used on tanks was napalm as it burnt all the oxygen up & collapsed the lungs of the crews & essentially cooked the crew inside the tank as they could net get out due to the flames. He told me you have to remember that with 3 squadrons from a fighter group all doing this at the same time on a column it was guaranteed to destroy all vehicles no matter what they were.
Napalm, yes, .50 cals, no.
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if u listen... they said they shot the trailer of fuel BEHIND the tank... cause it would set tiger on fire...
-BigBOBCH
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Sheeeesh they were only going out for a picnic, all their sandwiches fried, not forgetting the deck chairs and travel rugs all nicely packed into their trailers...........lmao trailers please!
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If only the Wehrmacht had their trusty wirblewind in the column :)
LTARogue
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If only the Wehrmacht had their trusty wirblewind in the column :)
LTARogue
So you wish the jug got shot down?
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WW2 Air Combat Veteran: "this is what we did, it worked this way"
Aces high Cartoon Pilot: "You dont know what your talking about old man, let me get my X-52 out and show you in this game I play"
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WW2 Air Combat Veteran: "this is what we did, it worked this way"
Aces high Cartoon Pilot: "You dont know what your talking about old man, let me get my X-52 out and show you in this game I play"
I really dislike your particular kind of buffoon. People mistake what they see all the time. They believe erroneous things all the time. WWII vets are not demi-gods and they are not infallible.
Further, you denigrate the people who have studied the issue as "cartoon pilots" as though we are basing our opinions in any way on this game.
There were no Tigers destroyed by .50 cals. It was impossible to do it the way our pilots thought they were doing it. You cannot defy physics like that. The post battle inspections at the time verify everything those of us in this thread have said about it not being possible.
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Well I think if someone bails and the attacking plane gets to close to the chute then the chutist should be able to shoot and perhaps pilot wound the guy. That has been done...ya know. :noid
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50 cals are able to penetrate steal, got to find it but saw a 50 light up a BMP and it caught fire
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50 cals are able to penetrate steal, got to find it but saw a 50 light up a BMP and it caught fire
Were these modern armor piercing 50 cals?
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An armoured personnel carrier isn't really comparable to a WWII heavy tank.
The longbow could penetrate steel too, though i'm not convinced it could take out a tiger. :D
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"Zose Eeeeenglish bastardes, zey are bouncing ze arrowes off ze muhd of Agincourt!'
"Sacre blue and zut alors! Ah shall waive mah private pahrts at zeir Aunties!"
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"Zose Eeeeenglish bastardes, zey are bouncing ze arrowes off ze muhd of Agincourt!'
"Sacre blue and zut alors! Ah shall waive mah private pahrts at zeir Aunties!"
Is there someone else up there we can talk to?
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I really dislike your particular kind of buffoon. People mistake what they see all the time. They believe erroneous things all the time. WWII vets are not demi-gods and they are not infallible.
This reminds me of my great-uncle Paul.
Really a great guy, honest, funny, a simple worker all of his life - and a WWII vet that went through the whole crap from the first to the last day.
But one day, he got very angry when young Lusche spoke about Stukas in Poland - "There had been no Stukas then! - I was there!"
He was utterly convinced that the Ju-87 "Stuka" was designed during the war and showed up only in the final year. It was absolutely impossible (especially for a 13-year old back then) to convince him of anything different
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50 cals are able to penetrate steal, got to find it but saw a 50 light up a BMP and it caught fire
Even the modern M903 sabot rounds are only rated at 34mm at 500 yards. That is straight on, not after loosing 3/4 of its energy on a bounce
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i was reading where they would drop 500lb bombs on the side of the tigers and it would flip the tigers making them useless
(http://www.archivesnormandie39-45.org/PhotosMD/p011183.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e312/schwere/second%20one/panther_upside_down.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e312/schwere/second%20one/ABCDEFGhhhdfg0002.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e312/schwere/second%20one/SS1011KpTigerII121Aug44inthefield1s.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e312/schwere/second%20one/ABCDEFGhhhdfgh0001.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e312/schwere/second%20one/SS1011KpTigerII124-KOdnearF-StPr-1.jpg)
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2nd picture is a Panther.
Also, regardless of a 500lb bomb dropped near the side of a Tiger, the concussion of the bomb is killing everyone in the tank.
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and in the arena it doesnt do nothing
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and in the arena it doesnt do nothing
Right. It does not do nothing = It does something. It kills Tigers.
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Right. It does not do nothing = It does something. It kills Tigers.
At least somebody in here understands the english language. :D
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Wow, pretty amazing to see such heavy tanks flipped upside down :huh That must've taken some force! (or bad driving)
The Panther on the 2nd picture looks just like a helpless turtle hehe :D
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An armoured personnel carrier isn't really comparable to a WWII heavy tank.
The longbow could penetrate steel too, though i'm not convinced it could take out a tiger. :D
true and it probably was the AP rounds,
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Wow, pretty amazing to see such heavy tanks flipped upside down :huh That must've taken some force! (or bad driving)
The Panther on the 2nd picture looks just like a helpless turtle hehe :D
they would drop 500lb bombs on the side of the tanks and the concussion would literally flip them over..
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Im pretty sure they actually aimed for the tanks, not to the side of them, it just happened if it landed next to them it would flip them over.
a direct hit from a 500 pound bomb moving a few hundred miles an hour will destroy just about anything, including any tank that has ever existed, there is no purposeful reason to deliberately miss them in an attempt to flip them over.
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actually they did aim for the side of them.. i was reading the Il-2 pilots would do this
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they would drop 500lb bombs on the side of the tanks and the concussion would literally flip them over..
I don't think so... This may have been some sort of anomoly or a bigger bomb, but I've seen plenty of 500 lb bombs hit tank hulks, and they don't move. You can pop the turret, blow tracks off, etc., but, unless there's some sort of other situation at play, a 500 lb quick fuse bomb won't normally be able to flip the tank. Perhaps with delay fuzes...I'm not even sure of that either.
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500lbs would flip tiger II's over thats fact
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actually they did aim for the side of them.. i was reading the Il-2 pilots would do this
there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to aim to miss a tank with a bomb. I really doubt any pilot would deliberately NOT hit the target, instead opting for a near miss.
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from what i read they did the best to place as close as the tank as possible but found a close hit would flip the tank over. i am sure they wanted to hit the tank directly.
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from what i read they did the best to place as close as the tank as possible but found a close hit would flip the tank over. i am sure they wanted to hit the tank directly.
as close to the tank as possible = on top the tank.
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500lbs would flip tiger II's over thats fact
A Tiger II? Uhh, no.
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I find it funny that an actual air combat vet is called a blowhard common idiot on a BBS filled with cartoon pilot blowhard common idiots. :lol
wtf? I just quoted a comment from youtube.
Pay attention.
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I don't think so... This may have been some sort of anomoly or a bigger bomb, but I've seen plenty of 500 lb bombs hit tank hulks, and they don't move. You can pop the turret, blow tracks off, etc., but, unless there's some sort of other situation at play, a 500 lb quick fuse bomb won't normally be able to flip the tank. Perhaps with delay fuzes...I'm not even sure of that either.
Then how do you explain the pictures on page 3? Driving too fast over a speed-bumb?
EDIT: I can't say if those were caused by a 500lb bomb though, or by a bomb at all! (maybe very very heavy mines?)
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Some info I found.
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/b07ce889b3.jpg) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5748da1e63.jpg) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)
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from what i read they did the best to place as close as the tank as possible but found a close hit would flip the tank over. i am sure they wanted to hit the tank directly.
You keep saying "I read..". How about something besides your statements beginning "I read..." and give us the source your quoting?
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If I recall correctly the shooting of .50 to bounce under the tank were NOT to penetrate the underside armour but rather to set it alight. Like most heavy equipment tanks leak oil, mechanics get grease on stuff not intended for grease etc etc, so the idea was to get that stuff to burn and hopefully disable the engine making the tank useless.
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its a little bit lighter but same effect
Styker
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/496178/armored_tank_flips_iraq/
M1 Abrams being tossed about about 63 tons
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/353820/tank_in_iraq/
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M1 Abrams being tossed about about 63 tons
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/353820/tank_in_iraq/
So instead of citing the works you "read" somewhere we get a video of a preset bomb underneath a tank moving it into the air a bit but still not flipping it.
Did you really read anything or are you just trying to sound like you know something?
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when i can find the reference where i saw it i will send you the link. but it states the pilots would flip the tanks over with near misses from bombs. the video i showed show that its possible to move a tank and i bet those IED's arent near the powerful of the 500lb bombs.. the abrams is 63 tons and it must have been tossed 10 -15 feet in the air with ease.
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FYI supporting your statements with videos of terrorist attacks on coalition forces in iraq is probably not a good idea.
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when i can find the reference where i saw it i will send you the link. but it states the pilots would flip the tanks over with near misses from bombs. the video i showed show that its possible to move a tank and i bet those IED's arent near the powerful of the 500lb bombs.. the abrams is 63 tons and it must have been tossed 10 -15 feet in the air with ease.
First, the Stryker is a 20 ton vehicle, and not relevant to the discussion. Second, the M1 clip shows an IED that was buried under the road, and if it follows the typical IED they would use on tanks, its probably 10-20 chained artillery rounds which puts it way past a 500 lb bomb in explosive force, not to mention it was buried. Putting the explosives underneath changes the characteristics of the blast effect. Bombs, unless they have delay fuzes, would not penetrate into the ground at all before detonating. Even with a typical short-delay fuze, they wouldn't penetrate that much. I've seen Mk83 dusters (duds) that hit and buried themselves, and you still have half the weapon sticking up above ground. The older 1,000 demo bombs were much less likely to penetrate even that much, since the nose of the weapon was very blunt, not to mention the slower velocity at which it came off the aircraft.
Now, I'm not saying that its impossible that a Tiger may have been flipped by a bomb, but in my experience of watching all 3 major Mk-series bombs (500, 1000, and 2000) dropped on M-48/M-60 hulks, I've never seen one flip the chassis completely over. Those were with quick fuzes. Perhaps a 2,000 lb bomb with some sort of delay fuze would have a chance, but it takes a lot of force to flip a 60 ton tank. I can't explain those photos and didn't try to earlier. I'm just telling you that given my experience with current stuff, this smells more like one of those WWII myths oft quoted. So, in a Mythbusters vein, I'll say plausible, but not likely.
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when i can find the reference where i saw it i will send you the link. but it states the pilots would flip the tanks over with near misses from bombs. the video i showed show that its possible to move a tank and i bet those IED's arent near the powerful of the 500lb bombs.. the abrams is 63 tons and it must have been tossed 10 -15 feet in the air with ease.
I'm willing to bet those IEDs were larger than 500 pounders, probably a half a dozen artillery shells wired together or 1,000lber. Also, an IED going off is not the same as a bomb hitting next to a tank.
ack-ack
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The reference to flipped tanks that I know of are from Operation Goodwood.
pics from: http://www.saak.nl/panzer2/index.htm (http://www.saak.nl/panzer2/index.htm)
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2000/aaaaarmh.jpg)
(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4126/aaaab.jpg)
The tanks in question were flipped by bombs alright, but, I would surmise, not by single, 500 or 1000 pound bombs. Rather, massed bombing by medium and heavy bombers in preparation for the operation.
The preliminary bombardment by artillery was augmented by a total of 2,077 heavy and medium bombers of the Royal Air Force (RAF) and United States Army Air Force (USAAF), flying in three waves. The air raid would be the largest bomb raid launched in direct support of a ground attack.
So, it is possible but done by design is highly unlikely.
wrongway
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First, the Stryker is a 20 ton vehicle, and not relevant to the discussion. Second, the M1 clip shows an IED that was buried under the road, and if it follows the typical IED they would use on tanks, its probably 10-20 chained artillery rounds which puts it way past a 500 lb bomb in explosive force, not to mention it was buried. Putting the explosives underneath changes the characteristics of the blast effect. Bombs, unless they have delay fuzes, would not penetrate into the ground at all before detonating. Even with a typical short-delay fuze, they wouldn't penetrate that much. I've seen Mk83 dusters (duds) that hit and buried themselves, and you still have half the weapon sticking up above ground. The older 1,000 demo bombs were much less likely to penetrate even that much, since the nose of the weapon was very blunt, not to mention the slower velocity at which it came off the aircraft.
Now, I'm not saying that its impossible that a Tiger may have been flipped by a bomb, but in my experience of watching all 3 major Mk-series bombs (500, 1000, and 2000) dropped on M-48/M-60 hulks, I've never seen one flip the chassis completely over. Those were with quick fuzes. Perhaps a 2,000 lb bomb with some sort of delay fuze would have a chance, but it takes a lot of force to flip a 60 ton tank. I can't explain those photos and didn't try to earlier. I'm just telling you that given my experience with current stuff, this smells more like one of those WWII myths oft quoted. So, in a Mythbusters vein, I'll say plausible, but not likely.
Stoney penetration would have alot to do with soil and bedrock conditions . I wont pretend that I know alot about fuzing and penetration of 500 lbs. bombs . I do however have a wealth of experience on 60mm 81mm and 107mm mortars . Let's run with the 81 (though I prefer my 4duece) fuze settings being much easier . 2 setting on 81 mm HE round quick and delay . We will run with delay since it is germaine to the discussion . Book says you get 6 foot of penetration with a delay fuze setting . I have personally seen where you aint even getting close to that . Generally speaking this takes place on US Army firing ranges such garden spots as Yakima Firing Center , or my favorite graf . Worse penetration I ever saw was at Camp Pendelton Marines can keep that place , I doubt it was going more than 2 feet in the ground there . Best penetration I ever saw was in C. America where it was hitting very deep soft loam . Looked like it was 14 feet there . You can judge by the amount of debris and how high it goes etc . I didn't look real close but all those flips look like it is soft and wet , and bro I only seen 1 range that was close to that at FT. Lewis . And its the ugliest piece of the PNW there is . I think there are some variables that aren't being considered is what I'm saying . One last thing , I don't have much experience with IED's , thank god . However would you want to spend enough time to bury more than 10 155 HE rounds where datman patrols ? I didn't even look at the clips of the IED's I just cant watch that crap myself , no problem watching the rotorheads ripping up the opfor with their chin guns but I just can't look at IED stuff at all . So I am just kinda asking on the last part of stuff as I don't have the knowledge or experience to debate it . Would like to know what was in the IED that could bounce an M-1 . My personal take on the 47 killing tiger tanks with .50's is not ever . Think we saw something on the outside of a (TD I think) something burn . Could have been anything everyone knows what a lousy house keeper DATMAN is . .
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I'm still waiting to hear Zohan explain how a single 500 lb bomb can flip a nearly 70 ton Tiger II.
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I'm still waiting to hear Zohan explain how a single 500 lb bomb can flip a nearly 70 ton Tiger II.
He already explained. He read it somewhere. Then, he posted pictures of totally unrelated things. A clever misdirection that failed to work.
:rofl
wrongway
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He already explained. He read it somewhere. They, he posted pictures of totally unrelated things. A clever misdirection that failed to work.
:rofl
wrongway
No he hasn't. We're talking "Tiger I's", then he comes in with Tiger II's, the King Tiger.
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Baron von Rosen who commanded a company of Tigers was in Normandy telling about some of his 58-tons tanks being flip-over like miniature toys during the carpet bombings preceding operation GOODWOOD
(http://www.archivesnormandie39-45.org/PhotosHD/p011183.jpg)
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Stoney penetration would have alot to do with soil and bedrock conditions...However would you want to spend enough time to bury more than 10 155 HE rounds where datman patrols?
First point is well taken, and something I had not considered. Most of my experience comes from the desert, and undoubtedly different soils conditions. Perhaps the soils in France would permit a bomb to really burrow in before it detonated.
I did some searching to see if I could find pictures but could not. I've seen some pictures of 10-12 122mm howitzer rounds that were lashed together in a pit and set to go off together. So, apparently, there are opportunities for them to take the time to set some really deliberate IED's.
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Baron von Rosen who commanded a company of Tigers was in Normandy telling about some of his 58-tons tanks being flip-over like miniature toys during the carpet bombings preceding operation GOODWOOD
(http://www.archivesnormandie39-45.org/PhotosHD/p011183.jpg)
You said Tiger II's. I want to see a "flipped Tiger II."
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Baron von Rosen who commanded a company of Tigers was in Normandy telling about some of his 58-tons tanks being flip-over like miniature toys during the carpet bombings preceding operation GOODWOOD
(http://www.archivesnormandie39-45.org/PhotosHD/p011183.jpg)
looking at the underside I see plenty of places for bouncing 50 cal rounds to sneak in and damage the suspension and who knows what else.
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looking at the underside I see plenty of places for bouncing 50 cal rounds to sneak in and damage the suspension and who knows what else.
That one was flipped over by an Anti Tank Mine. Notice the torn steel. A bomb from the side wouldn't do that.
I'm still want to see a Tiger II.
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I dount doubt it, hard to imagine any bomb blowing BOTH tracks off and flipping it over.
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This is rather simple.
The .50 caliber BMG's armor penetration under the best conditions (using AP ammo and at decent angles,) was about 20mm. (This was about the same as most 20mm cannons, simply because cannons were almost always loaded with HE rounds, not AP shells.)
Tanks were and are vulnerable to lower-powered weapons mounted on aircraft that they'd shrug off from the ground simply because the aircraft can access the one part of the tank that is very lightly armoured- the top. Tanks are designed to defend against shots coming from other units on the ground, after all. Thus we consider the tanks top turret and deck armor.
The Panther had 16mm of top armor, and thus was vulnerable to .50 caliber guns. The early-war Tigers started with 25mm of top armor, and this would increase to 40mm by wars end. Thus they were immune to .50 cal fire.
Being able to damage Panthers and Panzers was great, since Panzers alone made up about half the German tank force- not to mention their self-propelled artillery guns and various tank destroyers. But Tigers were, well... Tigers.
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I dount doubt it, hard to imagine any bomb blowing BOTH tracks off and flipping it over.
That one was flipped over by an Anti Tank Mine. Notice the torn steel. A bomb from the side wouldn't do that.
I'm still want to see a Tiger II.
But see, that's where everybody is getting it wrong. It was not a-single-bomb that did this. It was a formation of Heavy Bombers.
Lots and lots of bombs. All together. At the same time. Really big boom. Imagine it would be an earthquake of bowl shaking proportion.
wrongway
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But see, that's where everybody is getting it wrong. It was not a-single-bomb that did this. It was a formation of Heavy Bombers.
Lots and lots of bombs. All together. At the same time. Really big boom. Imagine it would be an earthquake of bowl shaking proportion.
wrongway
Again, show me one DOCUMENTED case where a 72+ ton Tiger II, was flipped over by ANYTHING. It never happened, but Zohan said it did specifically.
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Chuck Norris flipped one, then he had breakfast.
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Again, show me one DOCUMENTED case where a 72+ ton Tiger II, was flipped over by ANYTHING. It never happened, but Zohan said it did specifically.
that picture i last posted was a tiger II flipped over. but to stand there and say it never happened is being a little silly.
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that picture i last posted was a tiger II flipped over. but to stand there and say it never happened is being a little silly.
I'm still waiting for the source of the Russian IL2 pilot stories. Your most recent example still does nothing to prove your point. Thats from a prolonged heavy bomber bombardment. City leveling power could certainly roll or flip a tank.
Where's the 1 500 lber tossing them around though?
Are you the type who can't admit to being wrong? Answer honestly, because it would save me time arguing with you.
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I have a question two actually . What where the size of the bombs dropped in those operations ? How close together ? I went ahead and watched the vid of the M-1 bounce . It wasn't that large of an explosive charge . It was directly underneath the tank . The Normandy operations where carpet bombing was used I doubt you will ever be able to prove what size bomb it was that flipped any of those tanks . I suspect the size of bombs dropped ran the whole gamut of what was on the British Isles at the time . I will say this , it is not only possible for a 500 pounder to flip a Tiger it is probable that at least on of them was flipped by a 500 pounder . I would bet a couple of months AH2 on each one of those points . As for the IED that bounced that M-1 was at the most the = of 20 82mm shells . No more than 6 feet down . My best guess would be considerably less . I will give my best estimation after I watch the vid a few more times . But on those figures alone I would wager a 1/2 year subscription to AH2 . I know some where there is an AAR with highly accurate data on the IED incident . For the Normandy pics anyone of the engineers that play this game that could say under the soil conditions and the energy from the lowest dropped 500 lbs was insufficient to flip a Tiger would prove to me it wasn't a 500 lbs bomb . And I would pony up .
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that picture i last posted was a tiger II flipped over. but to stand there and say it never happened is being a little silly.
That is NOT a Tiger II. Sorry.
Silly? You're joking right?
What about the "IL2 stories" on top of it all. Back up your claims.
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thats just was i was reading cant find the source from where i read it now. i did post on mythbusters though the story and gonna see if i can find some more concrete data. but if i had to place a bet i would say somewhere sometime it did happen atleast once during the war. that i can assure you of
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i did post on mythbusters though the story and gonna see if i can find some more concrete data. but if i had to place a bet i would say somewhere sometime it did happen atleast once during the war.
(http://ui29.gamespot.com/156/mythwalrus_2.jpg)
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What about the "IL2 stories" on top of it all. Back up your claims.
I could use a chuckle...what are these "IL2 stories"?
ack-ack
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I could use a chuckle...what are these "IL2 stories"?
ack-ack
(from Page 2)
actually they did aim for the side of them.. i was reading the Il-2 pilots would do this
You aren't the only laughing already Ack-Ack, we're waiting with baited breath.
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actually they did aim for the side of them.. i was reading the Il-2 pilots would do this
This one. Aiming to "miss".
wrongway
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Zohan , the problem is not that it wouldn't be possible . The problem is there just weren't very many VIb's around . Think of the biggets beach you ever say and 10 grains of sand are painted pink . The majority are T-34's and Shermans , the pink are Pzkw VIb's . Notice the responses to my posts . Make your statements clear about what you believe ,and what you know . I would have stated it is easily possible that a King Tiger could be flipped and they can't say anything . Ok I watched the IED several times . My bet is it wasn't even the = of 10 82 mm mortar rounds , it wasn't more than 4 feet deep . That tells me this , the 500 pounder will flip any tank ever made period . I will bet 2 months subscription on that . Second bet is , and I am looking for a way to get the AAR on this , the IED event that bounced the M-1 wasn't more than the equivalent of 20 82 mm MB's 10 feet deep . That one I am so sure of I will bet a years subscription on it . I gave myself a whole ton of safety margin on that too . Any takers from the 500 lbs won't flip a Tiger II crowd ? Estimate it was like 3 122 mm arty rounds 3 feet deep . Thats somewhere around 100 lbs . Thats my best estimate on the IED .
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i noticed on that video that the blast was not just on side but on both .. if it had been on just one side that abrams would have flipped
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i noticed on that video that the blast was not just on side but on both .. if it had been on just one side that abrams would have flipped
Doubtful.
Googling "bomb flips tank" the first credible response is referring to an atomic blast flipping a tank.
Many of the other intial posts are people correcting others that "no, thats an apc, not a tank. that bomb would not flip a tank" and things of that nature.
Also, we've already told you that your abrams video isn't applicable to this discussion. It is a video of a very large blast from underneath the tank. Earlier you were trying to convince us that a blast from a 500 lb bomb at ground level on the side would flip the tank.
I doubt you ever read anything about IL2 pilots aiming to near miss tanks to try and flip them. With the amount of history nuts on this board, someone else would surely have read it as well if it were true.
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wrong way already posted pics of a tiger being flipped by bombs .. flipping a tank with bombs has already been shown
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wrong way already posted pics of a tiger being flipped by bombs .. flipping a tank with bombs has already been shown
You don't give up, do you?
Your pictures ealier showed tanks flipped with dozens of large bombs in a carpet bombing attack by heavy bombers. Show us the 500 lb bomb from an IL2 that flipped a Tiger II.
I've been googling like mad to no avail so I think your full of BS, if you'll pardon my french.
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Doubtful.
Googling "bomb flips tank" the first credible response is referring to an atomic blast flipping a tank.
Many of the other intial posts are people correcting others that "no, thats an apc, not a tank. that bomb would not flip a tank" and things of that nature.
Also, we've already told you that your abrams video isn't applicable to this discussion. It is a video of a very large blast from underneath the tank. Earlier you were trying to convince us that a blast from a 500 lb bomb at ground level on the side would flip the tank.
I doubt you ever read anything about IL2 pilots aiming to near miss tanks to try and flip them. With the amount of history nuts on this board, someone else would surely have read it as well if it were true.
I saw no reference to ground level . I read more than one statement that said "no 500 pounder could flip a tank" . I disagree with that statement . The blast from the IED is no where near the = of a 500 pounder . I am working on a way to prove that too . As for the 100's of bombs flipping the tanks , how close together do you think those bombs landed ?
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if two 500lbrs were used, and the first raised the tank slightly so the second blast could get underneath and flip it, might work.....dont know that though.
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However close these may be when they hit the ground:
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/speedy420/random/b-29s_dropping_bombs_lg.jpg)
I'm not going to argue that a tank could not be flipped by an explosive. I am calling out TheZohan for trying to convince us that 1 500lb bomb would flip tanks so consistantly that IL2 pilots would be talking about it as a tactic.
Extensive internet searching seems to agree with me. Aerial bombing didn't flip many MBTs.
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soon as i can find the place where i read it i will post it.
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Bongaroo I am not trying to be offensive . I really would like to know how close together the bombs would land . I try not to make statements I can't back up with a source or having the personal experience . I can tell you this though , the IED in the video that bounced the M-1 was not the equivilant of a 500 pounder . I have an old buddy at Ft. Knox trying to locate the specific AAR on that incident . It is kind of hard with so little information . He thinks he can ge it done because IED hits that bounce an abrams are fairly rare we both figure . He is winding up 30 days leave so I will post as soon as I can . BTW he helped me to estimate the size , my estimations are way high to CMA in case someone takes the bet .
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Give me the weight of an abrams and we could use simple physics to determine the amount of force required to lift the tank x amount for x amount of airtime. Take the force needed and see how much explosives is needed to generate it.
Not that hard to do.
Besides which, I and others have already argued that a bomb going off completely under something is going to have a much easier time lifting or flipping a heavy object than the same force applied to the side.
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I wouldn't argue with you on that . The explosive would have to be below ground level . I think we may need a few more variables considered to decide if a 500 pounder could have flipped one of those tanks . Not the least of which is soil and bedrock conditions of the place it happens . I got started on this thread by statements that a 500 pounder could not flip a tank because 500 lbs would not penetrate far enough . I know from several years personal experience , that how far things penetrate is very dependant on those 2 factors . 81 mm he round delay fuzed is .5 seconds delay . book says it will pentrate 6 feet . I have personally seen it not get 1/3 of that depth and exceed it by a factor of 2 . M1a1 weighs 67.6 tons M1a2 is 68.7 tons . Just read in another forum a daisy chain of 5 to 10 arty rounds flipped a M1 and blew the turret clean off , just some more info to add to the discussion .
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I wouldn't argue with you on that . The explosive would have to be below ground level.
Does it really? A bomb going off at or above ground level still delivers an amount of energy to the side of the tank. If this force is strong enough, I can't tell.
Exploding below ground level just requires less energy to flip the tank I think.
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Does it really? A bomb going off at or above ground level still delivers an amount of energy to the side of the tank. If this force is strong enough, I can't tell.
Exploding below ground level just requires less energy to flip the tank I think.
Yes the explosive force would be the same. The problem lies in the fact that the forces would be applied to the tank in a completely different vector. Instead of up like an explosion from below it would push along the horizontal. Now your dealing with a whole new set of variables along with the fact that the force isn't pushing from the bottom of the tank, which is what you need to get the upward movement.
Perhaps some force vector diagrams would help you see it better.
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I did do some research on the B-17 missions that supported the COBRA breakout. From the 398th Bomb Group website, the mission listings show they carried 100lb frag bombs for those missions. Unfortunately, they didn't fly the GOODWOOD missions. Perhaps someone has some unit histories of the RAF units that supported those missions and can find what they carried?
Another note, does anyone know exactly how much explosive was in a 500 lb frag bomb? For example, what percentage of the bombs mass is explosive versus the case?
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Another note, does anyone know exactly how much explosive was in a 500 lb frag bomb? For example, what percentage of the bombs mass is explosive versus the case?
The German standard bombs were the multi-purpose SC series. They all had about 50% of their mass being explosives.
So a SC-250 had ~250lbs explosive filling. The pure frag version of that bomb, the SD-250 still had ~160lbs explosive.
British General Purpose (GP) bombs had 30-35% explosive mass, a British 500lbs GP bomb thus would end up with 150-175lbs explosive.
For comparison: The standard German divisional artillery piece, the 10.5cm (4.1") howitzer, had an explosive filling of ~3lbs
That's a lot of boom and the reason why I'm very reluctant to claim a 500lbs bomb would be able to overturn a 56t Tiger but not a 70t King Tiger...
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well theres already proof about bombs flipping over a tiger.. i dont think that should be a issue. trying to find where they said it flipped over the king tiger.. the pic with eisenhower in it is a king tiger from what the thread said that the pic was taken from. how it was flipped is under consideration. some said it was a bomb some say it may have been bulldozed .
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Does it really? A bomb going off at or above ground level still delivers an amount of energy to the side of the tank. If this force is strong enough, I can't tell.
Exploding below ground level just requires less energy to flip the tank I think.
True, but let's look at the "supposed Tiger II (that really isn't a Tiger II) that Zohan posted. Notice the "torn steel" on the bottom. A bomb blast "on the side of the tank" will not do that. That was caused by a shaped charge (anti-tank mine or two or more) and even more probable, the mine caused a shell to explode through the bottom of the hull. The reason I say two, is that it was not uncommon in Kursk for the Russians to place mines less than 30cm apart. Which is insane when put into perspective.
Not to mention, the tank "Tiger II, that isn't", could've been scuttled as well, then BULLDOZED.
But he has once again failed to provide ANY source of his "claims."
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I did do some research on the B-17 missions that supported the COBRA breakout. From the 398th Bomb Group website, the mission listings show they carried 100lb frag bombs for those missions. Unfortunately, they didn't fly the GOODWOOD missions. Perhaps someone has some unit histories of the RAF units that supported those missions and can find what they carried?
Another note, does anyone know exactly how much explosive was in a 500 lb frag bomb? For example, what percentage of the bombs mass is explosive versus the case?
http://www.303rdbg.com/bombs2.jpg (http://www.303rdbg.com/bombs2.jpg)
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even if i posted about someone saying the flipped a tiger II with a bomb what creditablity would you give it? i just read a thread saying pilot saying they where killing tigers because it sounded better when they reported it. i am just repeating what someone else had reported and i am hoping they are being truthful. they very well may not. but the fact its very possible it could have happen is a very lack of insight on your own part.
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even if i posted about someone saying the flipped a tiger II with a bomb what creditablity would you give it? i just read a thread saying pilot saying they where killing tigers because it sounded better when they reported it. i am just repeating what someone else had reported and i am hoping they are being truthful. they very well may not. but the fact its very possible it could have happen is a very lack of insight on your own part.
Do you understand the difference behind a Tiger I and II? Or are you just failing not to see what is going on? The ONLY one in this entire discussion is yourself.
Again, provide a SOURCE (book, etc) that says "IL2 pilots intentionally flipped over tanks." 6 pages later we're still waiting. Now you're saying "this is something you heard." Which is it? You made the claims, back them up.
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this is a report of a modern tank being flipped over
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1218814,00.html
As the two tanks came rumbling back with their wounded cargo, they came under fire. A missile blasted one of the Merkav 4s, killing a soldier and injuring a battalion commander. The second ran over a large explosive device planted by Hizballah that is identical to those used to such devastating effect against U.S. armored forces in Iraq. The force of the blast flipped over the 65-ton tank, killing the vehicle's commander and injuring three other crew. Earlier in the 12-day ground offensive, the Israelis had lost another tank to a hidden mine, killing four men.
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How many times do we have to remind you that an anti tank mine that the tank rolls over is in a whole different ball park to an air dropped bomb landing beside a tank?
You sir are about as dense as they come.
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Again, provide a SOURCE (book, etc) that says "IL2 pilots intentionally flipped over tanks." 6 pages later we're still waiting. Now you're saying "this is something you heard." Which is it? You made the claims, back them up.
Sounds like WW2OL when you used to be able to flip tanks over with the Ju87's landing gear. Maybe that's where he is basing his info on :lol
ack-ack
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How many times do we have to remind you that an anti tank mine that the tank rolls over is in a whole different ball park to an air dropped bomb landing beside a tank?
You sir are about as dense as they come.
a 500lb bomb would have more power then a anti-tank mind. and i already proven that a tiger can be flipped from a bomb drop. and if you noticed theres things called craters left by bombs meaning the blast is forced upward when they hit the ground. which would cause a upward force. i am gonna just end this thread if you want to comment how it cant happen then go right ahead.
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a 500lb bomb would have more power then a anti-tank mind. and i already proven that a tiger can be flipped from a bomb drop. and if you noticed theres things called craters left by bombs meaning the blast is forced upward when they hit the ground. which would cause a upward force. i am gonna just end this thread if you want to comment how it cant happen then go right ahead.
They have the very potential to be equal. A shaped charge can have just as equal of effect on a tank, as a 500 lb bomb dropped near a tank in say.. sandy soil.
You should have ended it a long time ago, but you will NOT provide a source of these "IL2" stories. The game "IL2" does not count.
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I also still contend that all of the tanks flipped "by a bomb drop" were flipped by massive amounts of bombs impacting at the same time, not a single 500 pound bomb.
There is a picture of a tank hit by naval artillery in Normandy. Pretty much just a pile of tank.
wrongway
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I also still contend that all of the tanks flipped "by a bomb drop" were flipped by massive amounts of bombs impacting at the same time, not a single 500 pound bomb.
wrongway
Which is probably the most plausible cause, especially if it happened during some of the carpet bombing offensives in support of the Normandy landings and breakout.
ack-ack
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He still thinks he's right. Oh man.
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:noid
My brain just imploded from all the math..... using trig and physics (Bongaroo, we could probably solve this baby with a little time...), at a detonation point of 50 feet from the direct side of our hypothetical tank, you cannot impart enough force to shift 50 tons around its' axis against gravity, on a horizontal plane. You may POSSIBLY move it sideways, if the Tiger is inclined past 25 degrees though.. interesting question there.
Underneath, it takes considerably less. An AT mine of 10 pounds HE can do it, due to the direct impart of force on the target, and owing to it directly acting opposite to the weight (F-gravity). By my take, around 540 pounds or so of TNT would be required, from an air dropped ord. A 500 lb allied bomb had about 170lbs TNT, IIRC.
Suffice to say, the percentage yield of one bomb against the side of the target Tiger tank is not enough to flip it. Kill the crew, yes.... impart enough 3 dimensional force to flip it... no. Multiple bombs imparting harmonic discourse upon the Tiger from one side, would likely do it, though.
These are the kinds of problems I loved doing in Physics back in college.... bookended by drinking, of course.
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Another note, does anyone know exactly how much explosive was in a 500 lb frag bomb? For example, what percentage of the bombs mass is explosive versus the case?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/500lb_bomb
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Are there any pictures of Tigers or Panthers in other theaters (Italy, Africa, Russia, etc.) that are flipped over in a similar manner?
p.s. Thanks for the link Murdr. I guess I need to go to the Wiki first from now on considering how many excellent resources you're including there.