Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: shiv on March 23, 2009, 09:59:32 AM
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Twice yesterday I was in an F4U-1A 1v1 on the deck, once against a spit, once against a P51. Each time the bandit eventually went into a hard flat turn. I was able to follow and use full flaps to eventually out-turn and get them but is there a better, more efficient way to get a solution?
To use one example. I was in the right rear quarter of the spit which is banking left when he went into a hard flat turn left. Outside of following him, what should I have done?
Thanks in advance.
Shiv
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Maybe a displacement roll, I guess it would depend a lot on your E state at the moment.
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Thanks Factor. Not quite sure I follow though.
E is fairly low, as I've been working the bandit over with flaps and using the vertical (as I understand it) to wear down his E. At this point I've gotten behind him and he's panicking.
(In practice duels I've been pitching up and rolling back left but it doesn't get me more than a snapshot at the 180 point of his turn circle, with the added disadvantage of losing angles after the snapshot. So that doesn't seem to be the answer, although I could be doing it wrong.)
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If I understand you right you where on his six and couldnt turn the flat turn as hard as he could... am I correct?
High and Low YoYo´s are nice in this situation. You do want to get some angles into it especially if you are in the worse turner.
Tex
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Twice yesterday I was in an F4U-1A 1v1 on the deck, once against a spit, once against a P51. Each time the bandit eventually went into a hard flat turn. I was able to follow and use full flaps to eventually out-turn and get them but is there a better, more efficient way to get a solution?
Why bother when you have hover-flaps? :D
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Why bother when you have hover-flaps? :D
Well, yeah:) but I was hoping there was something more efficient so if there's a second con in the area I can clean it up a little quicker.
I'll try yoyos also Tex, thanks for that.
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As Tex said, start with using high and low-yo's and use the vertical element to eat up the turn radius while keeping your airspeed up.
Also, I like to use a sort of lag/pursuit roll: Pull up vertical over the top of him then start rolling into the bandit's turn. Once you get him centered in your up/forward-up view keep him there as you pull through to drop back in behind him.
The beauty of this one is that it's a LOT harder for him to track your position than a simple high/low-yo so he may lose sight of you, stop turning and do something that gives you an even cleaner shot (you're going to get a lot of deflection and snapshots with this). This is especially the case if he's riding the edge of a blackout and his vision starts to tunnel.
I use this all the time against Spixteens in a 1A. Unless I'm up against a decent stick I usually have the shot on the first try.
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Very slight yoyo's can help. If you have a second con, it is very likely that you will need to break the the first and evade the second. When outnumbered, you need to be willing to give up shots in order to stay alive to get another shot later.
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Thanks guys, think I'm getting an understanding of this. Next time instead of following the turn I'll see if I can put these into practice. <S>
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Put the nose up while rolling into his turn direction, pull it over the top and drop back in behind him for the kill. Pretty much the same as what Saxman said.
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The advice about getting above and rolling with your bandit's turns is good advice, but if you are really low on E and (getting back to your original question) find yourself stuck in a flat turn, sometimes it's not the worst thing in the world. If you are sure you are going to have sustained turning advantage, and sure the con can't get enough angles to accelerate away, and sure your compromised E position isn't going to cause you any trouble later, a flat turn might be an efficient enough way to get the kill. Again, this is only if you don't have the E to get above and follow Saxman's advice.
So don't think that a flat turn victory is the worst possible outcome, use it when you have no other options.
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Yeah, Trotter, I may be trying to get too fancy. I guess nothing wrong with winning the easy way if the con gives me the opportunity. I'll try these out though in the TA and try to get a sense of the options if it's a more complicated scenario.
<S>
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Going into the vertical is key. If you know your turn radius is wider than the opponent, go up and keep the opponent on your wing tip(if he's in a left turn, keep him on your left wing tip.) When you pull up, keep rolling to keep him on that wingtip and when you've got the angles roll in behind him. It might take a few goes but generally he's burnt enough of his energy in the flat turn, you've maintained energy by staying vertical and rolling with him slightly to create angles to make a good pass at his six o'clock. Just remember that if you're in an aircraft with flaps that flaps = lift AND drag so make sure you're using them when you're pulling elevator to make a tighter turn but don't let them affect your climb.
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A couple things-
Why do anything "fancier" than what's required? If that opponent can be beaten by something as simple as a quick flat turn I'd just do it and be done. Quick, easy, and recover your SA as soon as you can... You don't need to impress your opponent by flying an aerobatic routine before you shoot him. I'd take the flat turn option if I was nearly set up for a shot, and could get guns on him to finish the fight very quickly. If it was likely to turn into a Lufberry though I wouldn't, or if our speeds were too much different.
If I had the speed I'd pull up over him, roll in and shoot him before he could recover E (and maybe even SA) from his flat turn. This is a "safer", "smarter" alternative. It allows you to maintain an E advantage, and quickly scan the skies as you go through your manuever (SA). You can apply pressure to him without getting overly fixated or committed, and that lets you notice the next guy coming in. Holding your E will also give you more options for this fight as well as the next.
If you try that initial flat turn and miss your shot on the spit, things can go sour pretty quickly. It's not so bad with the pony though. If you had the pony slow often the best option is to just pressure the heck out of him until he's dead. Don't let him get straightened out and fast again. Against the pony, I generally try to force him slow. Against the spit I'll avoid getting him too slow if it means I need to get slow with him. I'd rather fight fast against a fast spit than slow against a slow spit. I reverse that for ponies.
Once on the deck in a slow Lufberry against a spit, you're looking for trouble. You may be able to turn a smaller circle than him, but you won't be able to do it as quickly as him. The result will probably be him crawling around behind you, unless he foolishly decides to reverse his turn. Flaps will tighten your turn radius, but hurt your speed and turn rate. If I can't kill the spit within the first few seconds (3-4) in the flat turn I'm getting out of it. Do it early, before you're too slow.
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Well not necessarily fancy, safer and smarter was what I was looking for. I just didn't really have a good idea of the alternatives, having just flown spits and pulled g's for so long. Thanks for the input. <S>
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High Yoyo, Vector Roll are the two primary tactics to effectively maintain your E advantage while converting some of that E into alt to bring down on your Flat turning victim.
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Some planes simply do not require much fancy maneuvers. If they combine good turning ability with high acceleration/climb rate they can really just beat their opponent in the flat turn and then recover their energy back. For other planes this is a poor option, unless you want this one kill and bug out.
Essentially all "beat the flat turn" solutions work on changing the geometry, that will lead to a future point of gun solution. High Yo-Yos add vertical dimension to increase separation and reduce the turn radius of the pursuer by slowing him down ("banking" the energy in altitude and then "cashing" it back again). They are heavily used and are predictable. Good defenders will know how to keep you yo-yoing for a long time before you perhaps get a shot.
A good and under-used maneuver for pure energy fighters is the "lag displacement roll", mentioned by PFactorDave. You start similar to a high yo-yo, by reducing the bank and pulling nose-high. Instead of going up while still in a turn, you continue to roll out of the turn and perform a sort of a barrel-roll or corkscrew that you complete heading ~90 degree off from the direction you started. Example: the bandit breaks hard left, you pull up and make a roll to the right (while pulling - this is a corkscrew roll, not a roll around your plane axis).
What does that do? first, by moving away from your target, you quickly increase the separation and make room for you to turn into him, instead of around him - this is the "displacement" part. Then, you make your turn in the vertical and come out of it about 90 or a little more from your original direction (to the left in the example). During this time, the target needs to pull more than 180 degrees turn for you not to be pointing ahead of it. So yes, you make a lazy turn vs. the target degree-per-sec wise (the "lag" part), but you changed the geometry so you need to pull less degrees than you opponent does. Done right, you will get a 90 degree deflection shot at him. This is not used to saddle-up on him which is pointless if you fly a 190 vs. a spit for example. If you don't get the shot, you are in an easy position to pull up again and repeat, or go high and re-evaluate the situation.
The added bonus is that an above average opponent will see you go up and think you go for the typical high yo-yo. He may try to reduce the turn and try to suck you in while still too close and too fast, or reverse the turn and cut into/under you to deny the separation. He may even see you roll away and try to reverse and go after you. In both cases he will only make himself an even easier target.
example:
Giora Rom in Mirage vs. Mig17 (first fight in this part). The Mirage is a great energy fighter but is total crap in a turn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQF7VFkaS2E
The commentator and drawing say "series of high and low yo-yos", but they actually show a lag displacement roll in the 3D animation - note the direction of the roll, away from the target to get the required displacement.
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<S> Bozon. Thanks for taking the time to explain that. Been foggy on lag rolls in particular and the geometry in general. It's a lot clearer now.
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Hey shiv this film is just one kill flying the mossy vs a higher huricane IIc. Classic example of what i try to do against a better turning aircraft that wants to go in flat circles. I cant explain any better than that, i'm sorry :)
Cute with hurricane (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/cwh.ahf)
just be weary of those who like to flat turn and have found the throttle does stuff too :noid
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Good illustration of a displacement roll
http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-1222/P-12220028.htm
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Ty Battfink. I've been doing a lot of throttle work to cut the corner on spits and zekes, seems to be helping. When I flew Spits exclusively it never occurred to me to cut the throttle for some reason. But in the 1A it seems more intuitive. Well, that and I've been watching a lot of film and noticed how much throttle work better sticks are using.
I'll try that merge also against a higher and better turning con next chance I get. I guess pointing up away from him when the hurri's coming down is a way of getting separation? Or are you first trying to defeat his shot? Both?
I ask because I try to have my nose up and the con's nose down in a regular co-E merge with my plane below and to the right of him - seems to get results and was hoping I'm on the right track. Especially if he goes for a shot there. And perhaps the same principles might apply even in this extreme example with the high con coming down at you?
Thanks also Tex for the illustration. Been working that as much I can (maybe too much right now actually but it's helping me learn when to use it.) But in the right situation it's putting me in business, whereas previously I would have just zoomed and tried for another pass.
<Salute> Really appreciate the help
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I was going to post on this.
But Mtman said it way better than I could have.
This advice is "golden" :aok
A couple things-
Why do anything "fancier" than what's required? If that opponent can be beaten by something as simple as a quick flat turn I'd just do it and be done. Quick, easy, and recover your SA as soon as you can... You don't need to impress your opponent by flying an aerobatic routine before you shoot him. I'd take the flat turn option if I was nearly set up for a shot, and could get guns on him to finish the fight very quickly. If it was likely to turn into a Lufberry though I wouldn't, or if our speeds were too much different.
If I had the speed I'd pull up over him, roll in and shoot him before he could recover E (and maybe even SA) from his flat turn. This is a "safer", "smarter" alternative. It allows you to maintain an E advantage, and quickly scan the skies as you go through your manuever (SA). You can apply pressure to him without getting overly fixated or committed, and that lets you notice the next guy coming in. Holding your E will also give you more options for this fight as well as the next.
If you try that initial flat turn and miss your shot on the spit, things can go sour pretty quickly. It's not so bad with the pony though. If you had the pony slow often the best option is to just pressure the heck out of him until he's dead. Don't let him get straightened out and fast again. Against the pony, I generally try to force him slow. Against the spit I'll avoid getting him too slow if it means I need to get slow with him. I'd rather fight fast against a fast spit than slow against a slow spit. I reverse that for ponies.
Once on the deck in a slow Lufberry against a spit, you're looking for trouble. You may be able to turn a smaller circle than him, but you won't be able to do it as quickly as him. The result will probably be him crawling around behind you, unless he foolishly decides to reverse his turn. Flaps will tighten your turn radius, but hurt your speed and turn rate. If I can't kill the spit within the first few seconds (3-4) in the flat turn I'm getting out of it. Do it early, before you're too slow.
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Ty Batfink. I've been doing a lot of throttle work to cut the corner on spits and zekes, seems to be helping. When I flew Spits exclusively it never occurred to me to cut the throttle for some reason. But in the 1A it seems more intuitive. Well, that and I've been watching a lot of film and noticed how much throttle work better sticks are using.
Yep, throttle work is essential. Speed is the 4th dimension to add to the normal 3D air space and many people seem to forget that negative speed (or energy) advantages (IE: overshoots or reversals)are just as usefull as possitive speed advantages (IE: BnZ kill or rope)
I'll try that merge also against a higher and better turning con next chance I get. I guess pointing up away from him when the hurri's coming down is a way of getting separation? Or are you first trying to defeat his shot? Both?
The merge here aims to give the attacker a difficult shot. Too hard and they may break off and save their altitude, too easy and they might make the shot count and/or saddle up on your six. Once they have commited to the shot and missed the ball is in our court just for a few seconds. The idea is to megre vertically enough so that the enemy is forced to pull back up into you as you are turning over the top of your move...yours is a gravity assisted turn whereas theirs is fighting gravity......which makes it almost impossible for the attacker to get guns on before you.
I ask because I try to have my nose up and the con's nose down in a regular co-E merge with my plane below and to the right of him - seems to get results and was hoping I'm on the right track. Especially if he goes for a shot there. And perhaps the same principles might apply even in this extreme example with the high con coming down at you?
It's all about vertical seperation on merge. All things being equal the merger who forces his opponent to dive into the merge as he climbs to it will have the advantage directly after the first turn in as far as a gun solution or at least guns on for HO first. Of course it is still relevant how much speed the diving attack holds. Too little and they might just shoot you and get your tail, too much and they may easily climb back up to a possition of saftey to repeat the attack. Just the right judge of relative speeds is required to pull this type of defence off.
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Yep, throttle work is essential. Speed is the 4th dimension to add to the normal 3D air space and many people seem to forget that negative speed (or energy) advantages (IE: overshoots or reversals)are just as usefull as possitive speed advantages (IE: BnZ kill or rope)
Not *QUITE* as useful, overshoot fighting means the bandit gets to shoot at you at least once, a proposition to which I am philosophically and morally opposed. OTOH, one is going to fly lemons, one better damn well know how to make lemonade :devil :salute
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Not *QUITE* as useful, overshoot fighting means the bandit gets to shoot at you at least once, a proposition to which I am philosophically and morally opposed. OTOH, one is going to fly lemons, one better damn well know how to make lemonade :devil :salute
I'd have to agree with the idea that being slower isn't generally as good as being faster.... But...
The trick is to use your situation to your advantage, and your opponents disadvantage in whatever way you can. If you're faster, use aspects of that to your advantage. If you're slower than your opponent, use aspects of that to your advantage. You generally have a few options in either scenario.
Being faster than your opponent may give you more options than your opponent, but that doesn't mean that being slower removes all of your options, or that the ones you do have when you're the slow plane aren't good options.