Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Tony Williams on February 22, 2001, 01:42:00 PM
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I thought some of you might be interested in a summary I have put together in response to a query....go to:
http://www.delphi.com/autogun/messages/?msg=57.1 (http://www.delphi.com/autogun/messages/?msg=57.1)
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Thanks Tony, good stuff.
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Thanks for the info, nice reading.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Ty Sir (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Brady
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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 02-22-2001).]
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Do you think its appropriat for AH to ignore the HE rounds in the mg131/13? where they really that ineffective?
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Do you think its appropriat for AH to ignore the HE rounds in the mg131/13? where they really that ineffective?
I doubt that they were very effective, but they were better than ball rounds.
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Same problem we have with missing 12,7mm HE shells in C.202 and C.205.
Tony take a look here (.avi film):
Breda's 12,7mm hits (http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/breda.avi)
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Originally posted by gatt:
Same problem we have with missing 12,7mm HE shells in C.202 and C.205.
Tony take a look here (.avi film):
Breda's 12,7mm hits (http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/breda.avi)
Wow impressive film!
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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I want the German version of that 13mm HE in my 109! Impressive. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Image kindly provided by Tony Williams. Note the size of the 12,7mm Breda HE compared to the 13mm HE MG131 and, above all, the size of the Browning.
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/cartridges.jpg)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 02-23-2001).]
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The 7.7 Breda isn't any more than a .300 Winchester Magnum (Big game rife cartridge). For that matter there are people that use the Browning .50 cal to hunt Elk at long range. I wouldn't have guessed that the Browning .50 was that much larger than the other 12.7mm rounds. I'm assuming that the Browning round also packed more powder in the cartridge and was a higher velocity round. Nice photo thx.
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Damage modelling seems to be the worst part of every combat flight sim. In AH it's quite digital - you can pound the crap out of someones plane, but unless you meet the "X" value to actually break something, they seem to take no damage. All damageable parts of the plane are either 100% funtional, or completely gone.
Eg: You put a 30mm MK 108 round into someones wing. Unfortunately it doesn't do enough "damage" to remove the wing, and they fly on their merry way. In reality, that wing would have a big fat hole in it - and the internal parts like fuel lines, control cables, electrical wiring, etc. may have taken damage that could very well cause further damage, or make the plane unflyable.
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Remember that image Pyro has showing a shell comparison? I edited it with the caliber and casing length of each round. It is a bit big (60K+) but if anyone wants a look I can post it.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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Sure flak post it. IMFO it would be nice to see. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Nice film, Gatt!
For the record, the 7.7mm Breda was exactly the same as the .303 British, so a lot less powerful than the .300 Winchester Magnum. Also, the Soviet 12.7x108 cartridge is slightly larger than the Browning's, and the 13.2mm Hotchkiss (used in the Japanese Navy's 13mm Type 3) was basically the same size as the .50 Browning but with a slightly larger calibre.
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Here it is. I had to guess on the Mk-103 case length since no one seems to have that info on the web.
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/ammo.gif)
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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You guessed exactly right! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) And the BK 37 was 263mm.
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I can't resist pointing out that scale drawings of all service automatic weapon cartridges 11.35-57mm, plus projectile weights/muzzle velocity data, plus comparative drawings of all WW2 aircraft guns 12.7-57mm and weight/dimension/performance data, are included in my book (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Mr. Williams:
Ya know what I just may buy your book yet...you have been so cool about posting relevant and helpful info I kinda feel indebted to you... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Brady
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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 02-24-2001).]
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Well, I enjoy passing on what I've learned - and learning more myself. The web is great for both!
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Dinger and Hooligan did a quantitative analysis of gun lethality. http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/AHGun102.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/AHGun102.htm)
The Breda 12.7 mm causes 78% as much damage per round as the Browning .50 cal, but it has only 57% as much initial kinetic energy. Looks like Breda HE is working just fine. Nothing is missing.
(PS MG 131 is a different story, looks like KE damage only)
(PPS MG 151/20 does 86% as much damage as Hispano, but with only 56% as much KE. Must be a lot of HE in those Mauser rounds!)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-25-2001).]
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sorry, I forgot where I found this pic of the rds that the americans used.
(http://www.ixpres.com/ag1caf/navalwar/ac_pics/bullets.jpg)
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Originally posted by funked:
(PPS MG 151/20 does 86% as much damage as Hispano, but with only 56% as much KE. Must be a lot of HE in those Mauser rounds!)
[/B]
That would be the M-Geschoss - it had 18-20g HE instead of around 12g for the Hispano.
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Originally posted by Tony Williams:
That would be the M-Geschoss - it had 18-20g HE instead of around 12g for the Hispano.
I don't think that is true for the shell in AH.
Type 99 Mk 2, ShVAK(API) (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Base/1852/20mm.html) and MG 151/20(M-Geschoss) in relation to the Hispano shell:
% KE of the HS 20mm: 50% 54% 58%
% weight of HS 20mm: 99% 74% 71%
% damage of HS 20mm: 92% 86% 86%
Given those figures, I find it VERY hard to conclude that the MG 151/20 is firing shells with 20g of explosive in them...
1. If we assume that it's lower KE is reducing damage when compared to the Hispano, then why is it that the Type 99 can do more damage with even less KE?! Did the Japanese shells have more than 20g of explosive in them?
2. How does the ShVAK manage to do the same damage as the MG 151/20 with even less KE and no HE content at all? OK, maybe it's firing HE shells - but according to the link above they only contained 6.7g of explosive.
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Hint Juzz, think mixed ammunition belts.
Look back at it again and consider the results if the MG151/20 included 1 mine shell in every 3 rounds with the others being AP or APHEI. The historical 1944 loadout for the western front.
Then it starts to make more sense.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Looking at it your way: The Hispano fires a shell that simulates a half AP half HE ammo mix. In that case an individual shell delivers the equivalent of 6g of HE. If the MG 151/20 fires a shell simulating the 1 in 3 M-Geschoss ratio, then each individual shell delivers the equivalent of 5g of HE.
5/6 = 0.83
I think you could be right.
But doing it that way porks the damage results of individual rounds something aweful - a single hit of 20g of explosive must have more effect than 4 individual 5g hits methinks... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 02-26-2001).]
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hispano using HE was very uncommon until the mk V fromwhat ive seen
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
hispano using HE was very uncommon until the mk V fromwhat ive seen
At first the RAF used plain steel projectiles because the original HE type had a fuze that was too sensitive, so it would detonate on the surface of the target and do little damage. This was soon fixed, however, and equal numbers of HEI and SAPI became standard long before the Mk V.
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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It is not as simple as adding up HE content.
HE type rounds ae better at causing structural damage.
AP type rounds are better at penetrating to a critical component.
Everybody used mixed ammunition beltings in their 20mm cannon for good reasons. AP and HE type shells both have advantages and disadvantages. An AP/I round is much better against pilot armor. An HE round is much better against a rudder or elevator. But the AH damage model doesn't really model these differences so we end up with "hybrid ammunition" and "hybrid results".
Hooligan
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thx tony i defer to your expertise since you are obviously more learned on the subject than I (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
personally i have no problems with a2a gunnery in the game, its hispanos ability to bust PZIV that bothers me
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Tony would you be quiet, it's going to spoil your book for me when it arrives!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I do try, but I just can't resist! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Randomly throw out 1/2 to 1/3 of all cannon shells (depending on whatever ratio is used for the mixed belt effect) that hit an armored surface to simulate the resultant surface detenation of HE cannon shells upon impact. External componets would still be vulnerable to the entire load.
It would be a stopgap gameplay concession, like so many other things to accomadate certain aspects of the game.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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You guys do realize that on most of the planes in AH, the only armored surface that could stop even a rifle-caliber MG round was behind the pilot?
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And right in front of the pilot's eyes Funked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Hooligan:
An AP/I round is much better against pilot armor. An HE round is much better against a rudder or elevator.
I would more likely shoot my AP/Is into fuel tank (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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You do realize that is in regard to AFV's, right?
Just about any cannon shell that exploded upon impact of the pilot armor in a plane would at the least leave the pilot unconscious from the concussion. I figured it'd be redundent to state the obvious
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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A simple reminder in regard to Japanese ammo loading, their aircraft carried almost all HEI, their AP round was also the tracer round so was loaded along the lines of 1 AP/tracer for every 4 or 5 HEI rounds, this is in keeping with the Japanese theory of destroying the aircraft's ability to fly by blowing chunks of it away, rather than drilling holes in it.
Brady
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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 02-27-2001).]
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Jigster wrote:
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Just about any cannon shell that exploded upon impact of the pilot armor in a plane would at the least leave the pilot unconscious from the concussion. I figured it'd be redundent to state the obvious.
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I think you are dreaming. A 20mm HE shell contained from about 4g to about 20g of HE. For reference a US Grenade contained 114g of HE.
Hooligan
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Hooligan, did the US Grenade actually have HE in it? Honest question.
I was watching one of the many WWII shows on the History Channel, a month or two back, and it said that the US grenade was simply filled with black powder around a machined steel casing.
They were then showing some of the original Pac film footage at Okinawa and Iwo Jima, showing Marines using the grenades, and the blasts were very smokey, leading me to believe the story they were telling.
Of course I have seen those shows be VERY wrong before. And I have no clue what the truth is.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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If your going to try and nitpick, take into account it's tounge in cheek.
However a hit on the head plate would more then likely daze the pilot a bit; a good sized firecracker could knock someone out at such proximity in a confined space like that.
And Verm they typically used TNT, where as now the use a mixture of RDX and TNT, and sometimes pentolite. Sometimes other stuff was used, and if it was pre-WWII theres a chance it might of had some black powder mixed in.
Most bombs and shells the US used were mostly RDX with a smaller TNT mixture -- RDX was about 1.5X more powerful then TNT.
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think, (not sure books are buried under junk)
that only black powder grenades date back to 1914, black powder having an uneven burn rate was found to be unsatisfactory for explosive filler, hence development of RDX/TNT.
Hey Tony, since you have the materials to be,
ahem, "The authority" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) do a comparison of 20mm,30mm,and 75mm shells as far as pene,KE,and explosive force, I don't know enough about aircraft armaments to comment on those, but the 75mm Kwk L48 on the IVH seems a bit weak, in both hitting power and range.
Btw, where can I get your book? always willing to add to collection (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Difficult one to answer as there were huge differences between the different 20mm, 30mm and 75mm guns.
Try looking for the "WW2 Aircraft Gun Hitting Power" thread under the "Aircraft Guns" list at:
http://www.delphi.com/autogun/messages/ (http://www.delphi.com/autogun/messages/)
Look on my website (below) to find out more about where to get my book.
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)