Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SirLoin on March 27, 2009, 03:13:44 AM
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If Captain Kirk was alerted to a "Confirmed Sub Sighting!" in Peal harbour, he woulda gone "RED ALERT!!!"..
Why was there no defense put up on that sighting?
Country CH shoulda gone up in green but it didn't happen.
And you can't say they didn't know it might be coming..
But in the end...Free society invented the bomb first.
We got the bomb in spring 1945..Why was it not used in the fight for Okinawa?A lot of good guy blood spill could have been avoided.
Why was Hambourg bombed 3 months before the end of the war? A socialist city that never voted for Hitler & a city der Furer Hitler refused to visit..A working class and concentrated city(more kills per bomb was the reason)
There must be answers to questions like these.!
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Alas, the only things we learn from history is that we don't learn from history.....
As for Hamburg, it still baffles me that the "Speicherstadt" is still standing. Looks like a good and valid target....
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Why were the carriers sent out of Pearl at midnight on emergency orders?
Why were the carriers sent SE of Pearl?
Why did the Japs have a model of Pearl with the position of each ship 3 months in advance?
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If Captain Kirk was alerted to a "Confirmed Sub Sighting!" in Peal harbour, he woulda gone "RED ALERT!!!"..
Why was there no defense put up on that sighting?
We got the bomb in spring 1945..Why was it not used in the fight for Okinawa?A lot of good guy blood spill could have been avoided.
Why was Hambourg bombed 3 months before the end of the war? A socialist city that never voted for Hitler & a city der Furer Hitler refused to visit..A working class and concentrated city(more kills per bomb was the reason)
1. The Ward did transmit they fired on a submarine operating in protected waters, it did not reach the Admiral until it was too late. I saw recently they found the midget sub in question, it had a hole in the tower.
2. They really weren't sure what the long term effects of the atom bomb would of been, some scientists had even said using it would cause the world to be destroyed prior to the testing in Los Alamos.
3. Hamburg? Hamburg was bombed quite a few times, Do you mean Dresden? If so, it was used as a clear message to the Soviets in addition more and more Germans were using that city as a staging ground since it hadn't been bombed yet.
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Why were the carriers sent out of Pearl at midnight on emergency orders?
Why were the carriers sent SE of Pearl?
Why did the Japs have a model of Pearl with the position of each ship 3 months in advance?
1. The carriers were ferrying aircraft to Wake, Midway or undergoing overhauls at the mainland. They all knew the war was coming, no one knew when.
2. I cannot answer that one.
3. The Japanese had someone routinely taking pictures and doing drawings of the harbor from the bluffs that overlook the harbor.
Here is a better question, why didn't the Japanese take out of the fuel stores or the subpens for Pearl during the attack?
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Here is a better question, why didn't the Japanese take out of the fuel stores or the subpens for Pearl during the attack?
I think they got horned-up on hitting fleet ships..The third wave (had it happened) woulda sunk at least one cv...And changed the course of the war.
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I think they got horned-up on hitting fleet ships..The third wave (had it happened) woulda sunk at least one cv...And changed the course of the war.
Actually, the third wave would have targeted the facilitites. And yes, failure to target the facilities was a costly mistake the Japanise Navy made.
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1. The carriers were ferrying aircraft to Wake, Midway or undergoing overhauls at the mainland. They all knew the war was coming, no one knew when.
Maybe...but on emergency orders?
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:furious :furious :furious I hate it when people talk of conspiracies, GOOD men have lost there lives for nothing if these thoughts were true, instead of this honor the loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage of those that have fallen defending the victims of this tragic day in American history :salute
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many would rather think conspiracy instead of ineffective stupidity
hindsight is always 20/20
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And foresight isn't worth a fart in the wind. Junky some people don't have a care about any kind of values, least of all the Army Values. They see that anything that involves the government must have conspiracies about it for you to see if they dig hard enough.
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And foresight isn't worth a fart in the wind. Junky some people don't have a care about any kind of values, least of all the Army Values. They see that anything that involves the government must have conspiracies about it for you to see if they dig hard enough.
History has shown there was usually a real motive and a public motive.
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I so want to speak my mind, but alas, I would be banned...
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Why was Hambourg bombed 3 months before the end of the war? A socialist city that never voted for Hitler & a city der Furer Hitler refused to visit..A working class and concentrated city(more kills per bomb was the reason)
1st, I'm rather sure you are confusing Hamburg with Dresden
2nd Hamburg was not really a "socialist city". And for the claim Hamburg had "never voted for Hitler": In the last elections to the Landtag during the Weimar republic in 1932, the NSDAP won with 31% of all votes, the socialist SPD being second with 30%...
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many would rather think conspiracy instead of ineffective stupidity
hindsight is always 20/20
Was just shaking my head :rolleyes:, then I saw your post. :salute It's amazing how so many are eager to credit the government with the most elaborate conspiracies, then in the same breath lambast that very same government as being completely inept.
Have any of you Smoking Guns types ever been to the DMV?
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3. The Japanese had someone routinely taking pictures and doing drawings of the harbor from the bluffs that overlook the harbor.
I don't really know what a "bluff" is, terrain-speaking, but you can see the harbor perfectly from half the island.
Just my .02, I think we knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, and I think we did the right thing in allowing it to be attacked. Just hear me out. China was being torn to hell and back by the Japanese. Japan was fortifying islands dangerously close to our pacific holdings. Germany was running rampant in Europe. Basically, the world was going to hell in a hand basket, and there was nothing we could do, because the American people still adored the idea of isolationism. Meanwhile, I believe the government and the military realized the importance of intervening in these terrible world events. But, with America unwilling to support a bloody 4 year war, what other way could we get into it without a very convenient attack on American soil that could convince every-day Americans that their lives were in danger if they didn't take the war to the enemy? I think we moved the carriers because they would have been practically defenseless, but we left the BBs so that the Japanese would continue their attack, and because the BBs had a much better chance of defending themselves. Junky, even if this WAS a conspiracy, that does not mean these men died in vain. Their deaths allowed America to intervene on behalf of millions of innocent people around the world, suffering under Japanese of German rule. IMHO, if Pearl Harbor isn't a "conspiracy", then it is one of the best coincidences in history.
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I don't really know what a "bluff" is, terrain-speaking, but you can see the harbor perfectly from half the island.
Just my .02, I think we knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, and I think we did the right thing in allowing it to be attacked. Just hear me out. China was being torn to hell and back by the Japanese. Japan was fortifying islands dangerously close to our pacific holdings. Germany was running rampant in Europe. Basically, the world was going to hell in a hand basket, and there was nothing we could do, because the American people still adored the idea of isolationism. Meanwhile, I believe the government and the military realized the importance of intervening in these terrible world events. But, with America unwilling to support a bloody 4 year war, what other way could we get into it without a very convenient attack on American soil that could convince every-day Americans that their lives were in danger if they didn't take the war to the enemy? I think we moved the carriers because they would have been practically defenseless, but we left the BBs so that the Japanese would continue their attack, and because the BBs had a much better chance of defending themselves. Junky, even if this WAS a conspiracy, that does not mean these men died in vain. Their deaths allowed America to intervene on behalf of millions of innocent people around the world, suffering under Japanese of German rule. IMHO, if Pearl Harbor isn't a "conspiracy", then it is one of the best coincidences in history.
yeah, we let them kill 2,000+ and most of our pacific fleet to prove a point to the american people... give me a break
To call pearl harbor one of the best conincidences is just insanity. America knew we were going to get involved at some point, we technically were already involved by shipping supplies to the British, this just sped the process up.
Conspiracy theories are complex solutions to situations that have a simple answer, an answer that people don't want to accept as the truth. Take 9/11, the whole government involvement thing is just too complex, and just insane, it simply was just a bunch of angry extremists, but some people don't want to believe that for whatever reason.
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Try and keep a secret between 3 people. See how long it can actually be kept. There is and was too many people in the government and in the military to keep that big of a secret. After all they are all human at the end of the day. The conspiracy thing holds no water. There would be too much conflict of interest for that to be done man.
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This conspiracy claim has been around for years, but I've never seen anyone address one of its greatest flaws....the fact that Roosevelt was a dyed in the wool navy man, to his very core. There's simply NO way he would have allowed the cream of the US fleet to be trashed, no way at all. Especially ridiculous when you remember that AT THE TIME the US Navy viewed carriers largely as adjuncts to the critically important arm, the battleships. If FDR honestly thought the fleet would be struck, its beyond ludicrous to suggest that he'd preserve the carriers but leave all the battleships to go down.
The idea was stupid when first proposed, and with weight of evidence now available its unspeakably idiotic.
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This conspiracy claim has been around for years, but I've never seen anyone address one of its greatest flaws....the fact that Roosevelt was a dyed in the wool navy man, to his very core. There's simply NO way he would have allowed the cream of the US fleet to be trashed, no way at all. Especially ridiculous when you remember that AT THE TIME the US Navy viewed carriers largely as adjuncts to the critically important arm, the battleships. If FDR honestly thought the fleet would be struck, its beyond ludicrous to suggest that he'd preserve the carriers but leave all the battleships to go down.
The idea was stupid when first proposed, and with weight of evidence now available its unspeakably idiotic.
Cheers.
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RE: Conspiracy
Would an attack on Pearl Harbor where, "miraculously" the fleet was sortied for "maneuvers" and none were sunk have had any different consequences for Japan?
Do you think the U.S. would say, "no harm, no problem" and not declare war? The U.S.S. Maine blowing up in Havana Harbor, for whatever reason, was enough to start the Spanish-American War.
wrongway
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This conspiracy claim has been around for years, but I've never seen anyone address one of its greatest flaws....the fact that Roosevelt was a dyed in the wool navy man, to his very core. There's simply NO way he would have allowed the cream of the US fleet to be trashed, no way at all. Especially ridiculous when you remember that AT THE TIME the US Navy viewed carriers largely as adjuncts to the critically important arm, the battleships. If FDR honestly thought the fleet would be struck, its beyond ludicrous to suggest that he'd preserve the carriers but leave all the battleships to go down.
The idea was stupid when first proposed, and with weight of evidence now available its unspeakably idiotic.
I love how all the conspiracy theorists like to look at the FDR telegram to Kimmell and Short telling them to let Japan commit the first act of aggression as the "Golden BB" proving that FDR allowed it to happen...
...and completely OMIT the second half the SAME SENTENCE where he tells him to do everything possible to safeguard their command.
The whole conspiracy theory is just an attempt to demonize FDR for no other reason than just because some people seem to think he's the Anti-Christ.
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2. They really weren't sure what the long term effects of the atom bomb would of been, some scientists had even said using it would cause the world to be destroyed prior to the testing in Los Alamos.
To further elaborate, it was the Japanese defense of Okinawa that convinced the Allied High Command and Washington that the price for landing on the main Japanese home islands would be far too costly and was the final catalyst for Truman's decision to approve the bombing of Hiroshima.
ack-ack
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RE: Conspiracy
Would an attack on Pearl Harbor where, "miraculously" the fleet was sortied for "maneuvers" and none were sunk have had any different consequences for Japan?
wrongway
Yes. Japan would have won the war. The United States was dogmatically tied to Battleship Diplomacy, and seaborne airpower was viewed by 95% of Fleet Officers as being secondary to "Big Guns". Were the fleet to have sortied prior to the attack, The United States Navy would have been tied to its' prewar plans of carrying the battle to the enemy on the backs of battleships. Losing most of the ships of the line, the U.S. was forced into utilizing all it had left.... Naval air power. Had the battleships sortied from Pearl prior to the attack, they would have been crushed later, in the decisive victory Yamamoto wanted.
With this happening, and Japan consolidating its' gains in the Far East, we would have needed to capitulate, prior to Japan really starting to eye the West Coast. We would have offered a peace treaty, Japan would have taken it in a heartbeat. Neither country really wanted to fight the other prior to the outbreak of hostilities. It was a war of survival for Japan, after we cut off their access to raw material.
Remember, it was a devastatingly "lucky" victory at Midway that allowed us to turn the tide. 15 minutes of indecisiveness during that one battle probably cost Japan the war. And this was with us throwing every last bit we had at them. Had our tactics been saddled on battleships in 1942 when Midway occurred, we would have lost decisively.
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Yes. Japan would have won the war.
That would of never happened, although the war would of gone on much longer. The US would of out produced the Japanese war machine eventually, the US Submarine program (once they got functional torpedos) would of still ravaged the Japanese cargo ships, and the atomic bomb would of still been produced.
we would have needed to capitulate, prior to Japan really starting to eye the West Coast. We would have offered a peace treaty, Japan would have taken it in a heartbeat.
That wouldn't happen today, much less back then when most Americans were incensed by the Japanese attack.
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-Puts on his tin foil hat-
Please understand this my fellow american's, in the 1930's the battleship was proven worthless when it came to a single aircraft and 1 Ap bomb, had the ability to kill thousands of men in a large tin can out at sea. We trained japan officers in the 30's on the proven tactic of carrier launched aircraft raids.
Its unfortunate being a american in such dire times, ever hear of the saying "you have to brake a few eggs to be a omelet?" Well that day the american's in the outclassed and outdated and now vulnerable Us Navy were sacrificed, made into egg's not for the american people, but for the american government.
Hind sight, if the american government had now allowed a few thousand american's to be slaughtered, we would most likely have stayed in a depression, having been conquered and speaking german, russian or japanese.
One must understand the general americans mindset in the 1930's, we just got done with the so called "WAR TO END ALL WARS" no one wanted to send more american boys half way across the planet to fight "AGAIN" in wars we had NOTHING to do with. So happens when you kill a few thousand of us, we become a mad swarm of wasps. After that "blind attack" our country shined if not for our self's but our hatred for the enemy.
Take it for whatever its worth.
"They knew pearl harbor was coming" is just about as stupid as saying we lost 4 fully loaded 747's to hit major military and world finance facilitys in the united states of america and didnt have a FRAKKIN' clue at all.
I cannot steal your car and make it out of state after runing a red light without having 50+ police on my 6:00 and they flew those aircraft for HOURS state to state, and no one had a clue. :huh
Knew...., no they COUNTED on it, trained allies in the early 30's then made them enemy in the late 30's and sat back and watched them attack. Like starwarts droid army* to release the clone army, that kinda crap.
Make a big snake, then send your snake to eat it, thus your snake becomes biggest of them all, even so big no one else's snake can swallow you.
-take off his hat-
Doesn't change a thing.
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Pearl Harbour was a catastrophic blunder. So were the starting moments in the Philippenes, since the warning was already out.
Pearl sighted a sub. And Pearl plotted the enemy force on radar. All for nothing. And they also should have known that topedos could be modded to run in vey shallow water, since the British had done that many months before.
To top that, the first shots in the pacific war were not exchanged at Pearl, the British were already in combat in E-Asia.
And in the Philippines? Mac Arthur's fleet of bombers was largely destroyed on the ground AFTER Pearl, and yes, the word was out. They were still unprepared and the aircraft lined up as for a parade....
And the guy who proved his point with an AP bomb had serious trouble because of it....
The stupitidy of war....
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That would of never happened, although the war would of gone on much longer. The US would of out produced the Japanese war machine eventually, the US Submarine program (once they got functional torpedos) would of still ravaged the Japanese cargo ships, and the atomic bomb would of still been produced.
That wouldn't happen today, much less back then when most Americans were incensed by the Japanese attack.
I disagree. Had the Japanese Navy not taken out our battleship fleet, they would have ended up killing the entire fleet, including CVs (which, per American naval doctrine, would have been used only in a support roll to BB's). This was American naval strategy prior to Dec 7th.(of course, this had changed by sunrise, Dec 8th.) Battleships were the spearhead, supported by carrier aircraft as recon tools. The USN would have ridden its' big guns into destruction, versus a navy that utilized carrier tactics in an offensive way.
Were that to happen, the United States would have been hard pressed to mount anything less than a continental shelf, west coast defense for 3 years or so. During that time, Japan would have had the ability to consolidate its' gains in the Pacific and build its' industrial complex, something it never had the time to do in the real war. With the raw materials and oil it had annexed in the Far East and South Pacific..... we would have had absolutely zero options, save to sue for peace. We had no allies left in the Pacific.... Australia had no means to do anything but hold on.
Our industry wasn't retooled for war production, fully, until the spring of 1943. The destruction of the Battleships in Pearl was probably the reason we won the war. It forced our strategy to shift.
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deleted......i don't wanna get another vacation from here
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Have any of you Smoking Guns types ever been to the DMV?
ya, in nj, you have to show 6 points of id. each and every one of them is easily forged. very easily.
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I disagree. Had the Japanese Navy not taken out our battleship fleet, they would have ended up killing the entire fleet, including CVs (which, per American naval doctrine, would have been used only in a support roll to BB's). This was American naval strategy prior to Dec 7th.(of course, this had changed by sunrise, Dec 8th.) Battleships were the spearhead, supported by carrier aircraft as recon tools. The USN would have ridden its' big guns into destruction, versus a navy that utilized carrier tactics in an offensive way.
Were that to happen, the United States would have been hard pressed to mount anything less than a continental shelf, west coast defense for 3 years or so. During that time, Japan would have had the ability to consolidate its' gains in the Pacific and build its' industrial complex, something it never had the time to do in the real war. With the raw materials and oil it had annexed in the Far East and South Pacific..... we would have had absolutely zero options, save to sue for peace. We had no allies left in the Pacific.... Australia had no means to do anything but hold on.
Our industry wasn't retooled for war production, fully, until the spring of 1943. The destruction of the Battleships in Pearl was probably the reason we won the war. It forced our strategy to shift.
I disagree. While I do agree with your discription of US naval doctrine at the time of Pearl harbor is correct. The Pearl harbor raid was just that a raid. It was not planned or designed for an extended contested battle. There was no plan to implement a carrier battle at sea. It was a hit and run raid from it's conception, no battle plan in place other than a sneak attack. Admiral Nagumo failed to make a third strike because he did not know the location of the US Carriers since they were not at anchor in Pearl Harbor. The third strike may well have been more decisive than the previous two had they targeted the submarine facilities and the tank farm. Nagumo was too worried about losing his fleet to fight a decisive battle. Which would involve hanging around long enough to mount an effective search for the American fleet and taking a chance on his own task force being located and coming under attack. So he kept to the plan, do as much damage as possible with a little risk to his task force as possible and get the hell out of Dodge.
The Japanese although the masters of carrier warfare at this time were still victims of the big gun club in their Navy. Even Yamamotto's Midway battle plan called for the Main Body of battleships to move in and deliver the killing blow against the American Fleet at Midway once the carriers had softend the enemy up. Another thing to remember about the influence of the gun club on the IJN. The Japanese were committed to building more big battleships. The Yamato had just recently joined the fleet at the time of Midway. Her sisters the Musashi and Shinano were under construction as well. The Shinano was converted to a carrier only after the carrier losses suffered by the IJN at Midway. There were also plans for a fourth Yamoto class super battleship. These monsters were a huge waste of resources that could have gone into fleet carriers. Even though the Shinano was converted to a carrier, by the time this was done her construction was too far along to be a proper fleet carrier. Having limited hanger facilities and repair shops. She was finished out to be more of shuttle carrier allowing planes to transfer from land bases to her deck then off again to other carriers. The whole Yamato class episode shows an attitude of the Battleship first.
Japan fared very well in the early days of the war. She enjoyed a numbers advantage in warships including both Carriers and Battleships. Japan could not keep up with American production period. Just because Japan lost the Battle of Midway in the summer of 1942 and Guadalcanal in the fall of 1942. This did nothing to take back her gains of natural resources in Southeast Asia, so were was all this production you speak of? Japan could have never kept pace with American production and the advantage America had of not only production facilities but natural resources in country.
America of the 1940s wasn't like the America of today. There was no mass media telling people everyday America was bad and everything was hopeless. There was no hard to identify insurgent force hiding behind civilians. There was a foreign military power that had attacked America's territories, friends, and killed American military members, and civilians. People then were tougher physically and mentally. They were not the type of people to sit fearfully on their sorry a**es blaming their leadership, their own country, and hoping if they make nice with the enemy it wouldn't happen again. They filled recruiting stations and factories, then went after the threat to ensure it didn't happen again.
As far as the USS Ward's attack on the mini sub not causing the fleet to sail and the launching of hundreds of aircraft to look for a threat... Nobody in the USN expected a carrier raid or attack of any kind on Hawaii. A submarine off the mouth of Pearl Harbor was probably expected and probably not considered a huge threat to a fleet in anchor in the harbor. Plus remember Command and Control in a peacetime 1940s era military was nothing like what you have today. If you really want to wonder why one side allowed itself to get slapped so hard in the opening stages of conflict, look at how the USSR ignored the German buildup just before Operation Barbarosa.
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EDIT: :salute
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I don't really know what a "bluff" is, terrain-speaking, but you can see the harbor perfectly from half the island.
Just my .02, I think we knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, and I think we did the right thing in allowing it to be attacked. Just hear me out. China was being torn to hell and back by the Japanese. Japan was fortifying islands dangerously close to our pacific holdings. Germany was running rampant in Europe. Basically, the world was going to hell in a hand basket, and there was nothing we could do, because the American people still adored the idea of isolationism. Meanwhile, I believe the government and the military realized the importance of intervening in these terrible world events. But, with America unwilling to support a bloody 4 year war, what other way could we get into it without a very convenient attack on American soil that could convince every-day Americans that their lives were in danger if they didn't take the war to the enemy? I think we moved the carriers because they would have been practically defenseless, but we left the BBs so that the Japanese would continue their attack, and because the BBs had a much better chance of defending themselves. Junky, even if this WAS a conspiracy, that does not mean these men died in vain. Their deaths allowed America to intervene on behalf of millions of innocent people around the world, suffering under Japanese of German rule. IMHO, if Pearl Harbor isn't a "conspiracy", then it is one of the best coincidences in history.
Absolutely mind boggling.
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Well, the whole gamble from the Japanese point of view was about killing the US naval strength in one blow, or at least cause enough damage to follow things up to victory. With that succeeding, japan had no foe to fear. The British had enough trouble in the Atlantic and at home, Germany would also give the USA pressure in the Atlantic, and the Nazi armies were at the gates of Moscow. With some 2-3 years in peace from the U.S. naval power the Japanese planned to permanently fix their strongholds and resource matters and thereby settling as a power big enough.
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I think you guys are confusing sub facilities with dry docks . Also you are forgetting the japanese still had the battleship or black shoe navy syndrome . Take a look at what they called the main force at Midway . Also in the BB vs. BB fights in the Pacific it wasn't the IJN that won .
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The Japs had the big gun disease as well. Actually, the Japanese armed forces were quite torn up with their differences.
However, they recognized the might of naval air power, and were, right after the British to prove it's value.
It must also not be discarded that once their brightest planners realized that the carriers had escaped in the Pearl Harbour deal, their word was "Oh, crap!" Yamamoto realized that Japan could not sustain a prolonged war with the USA so a complete KO was needed. He was right.
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yeah, we let them kill 2,000+ and most of our pacific fleet to prove a point to the american people... give me a break
To call pearl harbor one of the best conincidences is just insanity. America knew we were going to get involved at some point, we technically were already involved by shipping supplies to the British, this just sped the process up.
Conspiracy theories are complex solutions to situations that have a simple answer, an answer that people don't want to accept as the truth. Take 9/11, the whole government involvement thing is just too complex, and just insane, it simply was just a bunch of angry extremists, but some people don't want to believe that for whatever reason.
"Just a bunch of angry extremists" THey were our little potato till they turned on us....WE trained and funded them. Show me were and how the goverment was NOT involved......... You cant see the forest for all the trees. Its like training a pit bull to kill other dogs then it get loose one day and kill your own child..... Whos DUCKING fault is it?
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"Just a bunch of angry extremists" THey were our little potato till they turned on us....WE trained and funded them. Show me were and how the goverment was NOT involved......... You cant see the forest for all the trees. Its like training a pit bull to kill other dogs then it get loose one day and kill your own child..... Whos DUCKING fault is it?
Fog.
Of.
War.
It's what the conspiracy theorists never allow for in their smoothly drawn lines of "proof," but it's what EVERYONE who's ever tried to run a complex operation deals with daily. I'd bet most of those conspiracy buffs haven't encountered the way any real life plan goes to heck in a handbasket in very short order -- or if they have, they've never applied their reality experiences to their frankly unreal theories.
Pretty clear if you evaluate the actual evidence that no one expected there to be an attack on Pearl; conventional wisdom expected sudden attack on the Philippines and a major fleet engagement as the US attempted to relieve their Philippines garrison. Check out a book called "Final Verdict" -- written by a naval lawyer given complete carte blanche to interview, evaluate, and collect data...starting when the attack was fresh.
The prewar mindset rewarded compliance with doctrine rather than flexibility, so its no surprise that those in charge of deployed forces saw what they expected and didn't understand what didn't fit.
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My argument was, if it was a "conspiracy" what difference would the amount of damage make. It is the actual "underhanded, sneak attack" that is the issue.
Hence, sail the fleet before the attack you "know is coming" and still be outraged over the actual attack that was ineffective.
You still get your war and you still have what you believe is the means to wage it.
Unless.... It was a conspiracy of the Military-Industrial Complex to cause a war in order to create the need for a rapid build up of war material to engage in said war. New factories. Massive contracts. Lots of $$ to be made.
:rofl
wrongway
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You guys just need to watch the Ben Affleck movie "Pearl Harbor" and all of your questions would be answered. It's obvious that we knew the war was coming - remember when Doolittle tried to talk Ben Affleck out of going to the Eagle Squadron bevause he was gonna need all his best pilots?
Although its obvious from the movie that we knew we were going to be in the war, its equally as obvious that we didn't know when the attack would be - otherwise why would we have let the two greatest fighter pilots in the entire USSAC (Rafe and Danny) be stuck in the sand asleep in a car when the attack came?
You'd be surprised at what you could learn if you would take the time to watch QUALITY shows like this instead of that rubbish on the History CHannel. . .
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You guys just need to watch the Ben Affleck movie "Pearl Harbor" and all of your questions would be answered. It's obvious that we knew the war was coming - remember when Doolittle tried to talk Ben Affleck out of going to the Eagle Squadron bevause he was gonna need all his best pilots?
Although its obvious from the movie that we knew we were going to be in the war, its equally as obvious that we didn't know when the attack would be - otherwise why would we have let the two greatest fighter pilots in the entire USSAC (Rafe and Danny) be stuck in the sand asleep in a car when the attack came?
You'd be surprised at what you could learn if you would take the time to watch QUALITY shows like this instead of that rubbish on the History CHannel. . .
LOL :aok
Dang you are so right! Oh wait, wasn't Pearl Harbor being shown on the History Channel saturday night? Conspiracy or Coincidence? :rofl :rofl :rofl
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I so want to speak my mind, but alas, I would be banned...
"Just do it" Nike :) I wish i could say somethings to Sirlion in person well not say but do.....chokes....armbars..... .headbutts...many more
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Was going to say something here but... not on a public forum while my government is monitoring all internet traffic.
All I will say is, no country is left untouched by these men.
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Damn! I almost forgot my uniform!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3366/3201718336_9c83dabc29_o.jpg)
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Junky let me know when you are taking leave next. I like my sirloin medium well, you? Lol
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You guys just need to watch the Ben Affleck movie "Pearl Harbor" and all of your questions would be answered. It's obvious that we knew the war was coming - remember when Doolittle tried to talk Ben Affleck out of going to the Eagle Squadron bevause he was gonna need all his best pilots?
Although its obvious from the movie that we knew we were going to be in the war, its equally as obvious that we didn't know when the attack would be - otherwise why would we have let the two greatest fighter pilots in the entire USSAC (Rafe and Danny) be stuck in the sand asleep in a car when the attack came?
You'd be surprised at what you could learn if you would take the time to watch QUALITY shows like this instead of that rubbish on the History CHannel. . .
yeah and dan akroyd was onto those pesky japenese. I can't take him seriously, he was just one of many miscasts in that film.
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Here is a teaser for you all.
Do you know how the Japs ran their attack force so close (across the pacific) without being spotted?
Seriously! I challenge you to tell me what was their main trick, and if you all fail, I will eventually ... tell you :D
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Here is a teaser for you all.
Do you know how the Japs ran their attack force so close (across the pacific) without being spotted?
Seriously! I challenge you to tell me what was their main trick, and if you all fail, I will eventually ... tell you :D
oh do tell. Do tell!
I'm loving this hindsight stuff. Lots of people have read something somewhere and all of a sudden they are experts.
Read, reserch, write, publish. Then you're an expert, and even then you're not because you were not there or even alive in that timeframe. ;)
The Japs got lucky in their attack and the US was even luckier that our carries were out to sea. Do anyone **really** think the US would have sent its carries out to sea without escort ships when they knew they'd be vulnerable??? Seriously... keep things in perspective.
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Hindsight is easily available to you as well as me. But my "information" is from the Japanese plan, and is a very good bit of logical thinking as well as proving how bloody clever Yamamoto really was ;) So, shoot! How did he sneak up so nicely, all the way to the USN pacific HQ?
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Well first of all they did not use any radio comms whatsoever during on the leg to Pearl.
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My grandfather is a Pearl Harbor survivor and this is what he has told me he thinks about the conspericy.
"Since months before the attack there was ALWAYS half of the ships in harbor and half out at sea. Never were they both in the harbor togather. But on the night of December 6th they recevied orders that ALL ships return to port and tie up. He said it was very unusual. then the next morning BAM!"
He blames it on the president but i am not sure what to belive.
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I don't really know what a "bluff" is, terrain-speaking, but you can see the harbor perfectly from half the island.
Just my .02, I think we knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, and I think we did the right thing in allowing it to be attacked. Just hear me out. China was being torn to hell and back by the Japanese. Japan was fortifying islands dangerously close to our pacific holdings. Germany was running rampant in Europe. Basically, the world was going to hell in a hand basket, and there was nothing we could do, because the American people still adored the idea of isolationism. Meanwhile, I believe the government and the military realized the importance of intervening in these terrible world events. But, with America unwilling to support a bloody 4 year war, what other way could we get into it without a very convenient attack on American soil that could convince every-day Americans that their lives were in danger if they didn't take the war to the enemy? I think we moved the carriers because they would have been practically defenseless, but we left the BBs so that the Japanese would continue their attack, and because the BBs had a much better chance of defending themselves. Junky, even if this WAS a conspiracy, that does not mean these men died in vain. Their deaths allowed America to intervene on behalf of millions of innocent people around the world, suffering under Japanese of German rule. IMHO, if Pearl Harbor isn't a "conspiracy", then it is one of the best coincidences in history.
Are you saying that one day over coffee, Tojo and Roosevelt got together in the White House to plan this conspiracy?
Honestly, have you read anything of history, specifically relating to the relationship of Sino-American affairs during the period leading to the outbreak of war?
ack-ack
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My grandfather is a Pearl Harbor survivor and this is what he has told me he thinks about the conspericy.
"Since months before the attack there was ALWAYS half of the ships in harbor and half out at sea. Never were they both in the harbor togather. But on the night of December 6th they recevied orders that ALL ships return to port and tie up. He said it was very unusual. then the next morning BAM!"
He blames it on the president but i am not sure what to belive.
The president is just a errand boy.
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Are you saying that one day over coffee, Tojo and Roosevelt got together in the White House to plan this conspiracy?
Honestly, have you read anything of history, specifically relating to the relationship of Sino-American affairs during the period leading to the outbreak of war?
ack-ack
the public would not back the US getting involved in europe. roosevelt wanted in. japan and germany were allies. :noid :noid
<<S>> to all of those that gave all for us.
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the public would not back the US getting involved in europe. roosevelt wanted in. japan and germany were allies. :noid :noid
<<S>> to all of those that gave all for us.
You do know that Germany was taking as much as by surprise as we were when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor correct?
ack-ack
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The German public or the German leadership? In either case, it doesn't say very much. There is a category of people with immense power that most people simply fail to recognize (because they don't want to be recognized), they are above political interests and their purpose is but one, to make money. Money = power, it's very simple. The director of the Bank of England financed the Bolshevik revolution out of his own pocket. How do we know? He bragged about it on his death bed, that's how, otherwise we wouldn't know. So basically this guy singlehandedly financed the revolution thus created the Soviet Union with consequences on a global scale for well over a century.
Do you really think that the list of "the world's richest people" is true? You don't think they are forgetting about a certain crowd do you? Technically they aren't, since these people live in city states separate from the countries we live in and don't pay any taxes either. So you're the richest guy on the planet and don't pay taxes, how would you deal with that if you were exposed? Easy... because you're not going to be exposed. Anonymous banking anyone?
Ooops, I did it again. :D
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Dont really get that turner...mind PM me about it?
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You do know that Germany was taking as much as by surprise as we were when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor correct?
ack-ack
from what i recall reading, hitler was pretty much telling japan to NOT hit us....because he knew that if we entered in the war, he was toast..........
on top of that, germany's surprise is irrelevant, as it was still a way to get the public to back the war.
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Dont really get that turner...mind PM me about it?
With all due respect, all he does is spout paranoid conspiracy theories. It reminds me of some of the patients we had in the psych ward, they could explain the Spice Girls were representatives of Winston Churchill since their father was born on the same day as their uncle and was a likely twin.
I was wondering if they had the same approach to drugs as Holland but they have a 'zero tolerance' rule. It would of been one explanation for the paranoia, lucky for him at least Sweden has some good psych hospitals.
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give me enough photos and excepts from all of your pals, and I'll prove you are gay.
Seriously.
Conspiracy? Get a clue. Read a book, or about 50 that provide a better insight on the feelings of people in America and around the world.
Remember we are in the information age. If you don't remember what it is like to NOT be in the info age, well - all I can tell you is it was alot different. Calmer but the mind had to really think things out.
No adays - everything is summarized in a few paragraphs it seems proving why this or that was a conspiracy.
Like one said here, amazing how inept our government is in one turn, yet the same agency in another is the mastermind of masterminds, able to keep thousands silent till their death. pfft..come on.
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The president is just a errand boy.
sent by grocery clerks, to collect a debt ;)
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With all due respect, all he does is spout paranoid conspiracy theories. It reminds me of some of the patients we had in the psych ward, they could explain the Spice Girls were representatives of Winston Churchill since their father was born on the same day as their uncle and was a likely twin.
I was wondering if they had the same approach to drugs as Holland but they have a 'zero tolerance' rule. It would of been one explanation for the paranoia, lucky for him at least Sweden has some good psych hospitals.
"With all due respect..." and then you go on spewing that kind of stuff? I won't take it personal, as you really don't know me. You can call it "paranoid conspiracy theories if you want" but all I do is look at how the world really is and how it really works, not how I want it to be.
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So, final call for the challenge, - how did the Japanese manage to sneak so close without being detected????
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So, final call for the challenge, - how did the Japanese manage to sneak so close without being detected????
we were looking the other way?
seriously, i've no clue, but would like to know......
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There is a weather zone in the pacific which is relatively "dirty". Hard for air recce, and little naval traffic. They used it to keep in the shadow. Actually they made a "dry run" before attacking Pearl.
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There is a weather zone in the pacific which is relatively "dirty". Hard for air recce, and little naval traffic. They used it to keep in the shadow. Actually they made a "dry run" before attacking Pearl.
Do you mean like in Under Siege 2: Dark Territory, where Steven Segal pwned all those stereotypical henchmen? It did have some funny lines though.
And Katherine Heigl.
The attack on Pearl happened the same way all "impossible" attacks happen. Complacency, luck and a determined enemy.
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Good planning and lack of unluck would be more like it.