Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: slimmer on March 27, 2009, 03:59:31 AM
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M26 Pershing yes or no :salute
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Saw limited combat but did serve in WW2, 90mm gun is pretty nice. If i wasnt mistaking they have one of these on Sandhill on Fort Benning and another one at the 50 cal range(along with an M16 and M4 made me want to play AH :cry ) :salute
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Had one on display that I had to walk past on the way to teh PX at Knox too. Beautiful tank.
As Junky said, saw only limited combat. Would love to see it included, but it would need to be perked even higher than a Tiger- smaller numbers, bigger gun, better mobility, and I think lower profile.
But the Tanker in me wants it bad. :)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/M26-Pershing-Vettweiss-194503.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/4/48/20080830131349!M26-pershing-hongchon-korea.gif)
(http://i.pbase.com/o6/00/22300/1/84394719.3z5Vu2oA.20070807FortKnoxArmorMuse_06.jpg)
And while we're at it, howsabout a T28?
(http://www.fototime.com/05BFEFF9E421515/orig.jpg)
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/self-propelled-guns/t28/t28-02.jpg)
[Insert Tim Allen Grunting Here]
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Most of you have probably seen this. Good video of what the 90mm can do to a Panther. Side aspect shot at close range, but still gives you an idea of the 90mm's power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt5bJQOkI1g
Would most likely be heavily perked.
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I think the panther and IS-2 should be a lot farther ahead on the list of tanks to be added. Problems I foresee with the panther is that it could pivot turn (4m < less radius) - no other tank in game had that ability so people would complain if that wasn't modelled. Its very high velocity, flat trajectory gun would make ranging very easy. I don't think the armour hitboxes are very accurate so I wouldn't be inclined to agree with people who say a panther should be heavily perked because of its frontal armour.
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M26 Pershing yes or no :salute
WHY?
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A most definite yes to the Pershing. :aok
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No.
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I believe less than 60 M-26s saw service in WWII. There could have been more and earlier but Patton chose the M-4 for priority instead.
If you want to use the Ostwind/Wirblewind argument, they are unique vehicles that filled a niche in AH2 for an armored AAA vehicle. The M-26 is just another tank with a big gun.
No.
wrongway
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Gods, how I love tank snobs in this game...almost as funny as the
plane snob folks :aok
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Gods, how I love tank snobs in this game...almost as funny as the
plane snob folks :aok
Snobs because we want mainline WWII units rather than rare superweapons? Ok.
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Most of you have probably seen this. Good video of what the 90mm can do to a Panther. Side aspect shot at close range, but still gives you an idea of the 90mm's power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt5bJQOkI1g
Would most likely be heavily perked.
I seen that vid but i did not no what was shooting at the panther
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yes :aok
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that t28 looks crazy what kind of gun was on it?
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I seen that vid but i did not no what was shooting at the panther
A Sherman first approached the panther and was knocked out. Then the M-26 took out the Panther.
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A Sherman first approached the panther and was knocked out. Then the M-26 took out the Panther.
That's a great vid. It provides a pretty sobering view of war from the tanker's perspective. I found myself feeling sympathy for the Sherman crew and the Panther crew.
that t28 looks crazy what kind of gun was on it?
That's a 105.
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I believe less than 60 M-26s saw service in WWII. There could have been more and earlier but Patton chose the M-4 for priority instead.
If you want to use the Ostwind/Wirblewind argument, they are unique vehicles that filled a niche in AH2 for an armored AAA vehicle. The M-26 is just another tank with a big gun.
No.
wrongway
the sherman was chosen for 1 simple reason . LST's were designed to carry them . The entire invasion planning was based on number of LST's available . think the M-16 covered armored AA vehicles .
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Most of you have probably seen this. Good video of what the 90mm can do to a Panther. Side aspect shot at close range, but still gives you an idea of the 90mm's power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt5bJQOkI1g
Would most likely be heavily perked.
I doubt heavily, but definitely perked.
Also noticed where all 3 90mm shells hit the Panther. That was pretty cool, you could see the holes in the fire.
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Gods, how I love tank snobs in this game...almost as funny as the
plane snob folks :aok
Imagine the uproar if this Pershing version was asked for.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Super_pershing.jpg)
ack-ack
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Imagine the uproar if this Pershing version was asked for.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Super_pershing.jpg)
ack-ack
Thats overkill, lol. The Basic 90MM on the standard M26 is more then enough gun to deal with all the tanks currently in the game. .
I would love to see the M26 in the game, but only about 400 units made it to Europe before the war ended.
An M4A3E8 with 76MM gun or a basic M4 would fit better.
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Imagine the uproar if this Pershing version was asked for.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Super_pershing.jpg)
ack-ack
Jeez! Now I know what it would look like to walk into a cat house with a 12 in gun. :rofl sir lead the way :devil
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Thats overkill, lol. The Basic 90MM on the standard M26 is more then enough gun to deal with all the tanks currently in the game. .
Yeah, that picture is of the only Super Pershing (M26-E4) to see service and action in the ETO with the 33rd Armored Regiment/3rd AD. It's only saw 10 days of combat. It was equipped with a 90 mm/70 caliber T15E1 high-velocity gun. Here is the story of the only combat during its very brief combat tour.
DUEL AT DESSAU
on April 21, 1945
A Spearhead One-on-One Tank Victory
Only three days before the 3rd Armored Division's final combat action of WWII, a Super Pershing of the 33rd Armored Regiment met and defeated the most powerful and most heavily armored German tank of the war - the legendary 77-ton King Tiger, also known as the Tiger II or Tiger Royal. It would be the first and only meeting between a King Tiger and the Super Pershing, a modified standard M26 Pershing weighing 53 tons - an almost "secret" tank that, to this day, remains largely an enigma to military historians.
Only two Super Pershings were ever built, and the 3AD had the only one in the European Theater - an experimental version with its remarkably long barrel. Arriving very late in the war (March, 1945), it was field tested and modified inside Germany and subsequently saw about ten days of actual combat action, beginning several days after the Battle of Paderborn and ending with the Battle of Dessau on the Elbe River.
The Super Pershing (aka T26E4-1) was equipped with a new long-barreled T15E1 90mm gun that was designed to out-perform the German high-velocity 88mm on the King Tiger. This new U.S. gun had successfully penetrated 8.5 inches of armor at 1,000 yards at 30 degrees. Even more remarkable, it had penetrated 13 inches of armor at 100 yards. The special 90mm ammunition had produced a muzzle velocity of 3,850 feet per second, or some 600 feet per second faster than the 88mm of the King Tiger. But in testing, the new 90mm also proved to have amazing range and accuracy.
Army ordnance technicians (in the U.S. and Europe) had been anxious about getting the new tank into combat, hoping to match it against a King Tiger. But by April, 1945, German armor west of Berlin had dramatically thinned out, not to mention an extreme shortage of fuel, and the odds of spotting the monster German tank were slim. But in Dessau on April 21, "luck" would befall the Super Pershing crew commanded by SSgt Joe Maduri, a veteran 3AD tanker in his tenth straight month of combat.
The 3AD had begun a four-pronged attack on the city, which was heavily defended. Division armor were finally able to enter the city slowly after numerous concrete tank barriers were destroyed. With 3AD tanks fanning out, and 36th Infantry riflemen following, the Super Pershing reached an intersection and began to round a corner to its right. Unknown to its crew, a King Tiger had apparently been waiting in ambush at a distance of two blocks or roughly 600 yards away, and in the same direction that the Americans were turning into.
At this distance, easily within its capability, the Tiger fired at the Super Pershing. But its infamous high-velocity 88mm shell, of the type that had destroyed so many American tanks and vehicles during the war, went high and was not even close. Gunner Cpl John "Jack" Irwin, only 18 years old, responded almost instantly with a round that struck the Tiger's huge angled glasis, or front plate. But the shot, a non-armor-piercing high explosive (HE) shell, had no effect. Ricocheting off the armor, it shot skyward and exploded harmlessly. The Super Pershing had been loaded with an HE only because Irwin had been expecting urban targets, such as buildings, personnel, and light anti-tank guns. "AP!", he shouted to his loader "Pete," which meant an armor-piercing shell would be next.
Maduri and crew then felt a concussion or thud on the turret. It was never known if this shot came from the Tiger, or from some other anti-tank weapon. In any case, no serious damage was done - probably a lucky glancing impact. In the next instant, Irwin aimed and fired a second time, just as the royal monster was moving forward and raising up over a pile of rubble. The 90mm AP round penetrated the Tiger's underbelly, apparently striking the ammo well and resulting in a tremendous explosion that blew its turret loose. With near certainty, the entire crew was killed.
But there was no time to examine their "trophy." A battle was raging, and the Super Pershing continued down the street, passing the lifeless and burning King Tiger. Tough fighting still lay ahead, as German bazooka, Panzerfaust, and machine-gun fire came from windows and doorways.
The encounter with the King Tiger had been "short and sweet," lasting less than twenty seconds. It may not have been the titanic "slug fest" that could have occurred on an open field, but it was an overwhelming victory for the quick-reacting Super Pershing crew. The battle for Dessau would end completely on the following day, but not without the Super Pershing destroying another German heavy tank (believed to be a 50-ton Panther Mark V) with two shots. The first disabling its drive sprocket, and the second round completely penetrating the tank's side armor. That apparently set off an internal blast, again probably from stored ammo. And, still in Dessau, that was followed by Maduri and crew forcing the commander of a German medium tank to surrender without firing a shot. For the German crew, out of ammo for their main gun, the intimidating "look" of that long-barrel 90mm gun that must have destroyed any remaining will to fight or flee.
ack-ack
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An M4A3E8 with 76MM gun or a basic M4 would fit better.
YES! Yes yes yes yes yes.
Easy Eight!
Want want want!
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OK basic M-4 is more worthless than the t76. If you up it you'll get killed by a pony and 50 cal and M8's oh my.
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I would think a better tank to introduce would be the M4A-3 E8 (Easy 8) and I do believe someone else metnioned. It was a upgunned sherman but retained the shermans speed and maintainability. I would fit in well between the panzer and the tiger/firefly and I don't think it would require a perk. Spces below:
Weight : 33.7 ton
Dimensions: 7.54 x 2.99 x 3.00 mt
Armor (max) : 108 mm (4.25 inches)
Primary armament : 1x76 mm gun
Secondary armament : n1x .50 MG + 2x .30 MG
Crew : 5
Engine : liquid-cooled V-8 Ford
Fuel : 80 octane gasoline (168 gallons)
Engine oil : 32 quarts
Horsepower : 500 (gross) 450(net)
Range : 160 km
Speed (max - route) : 42 km/hr
Maximum Grade : 60 per cent
Maximum Trench : 2.13 mt
Maximum Vertical Wall : 0.60 mt
Maximum Fording Depth : 0.91 mt
ARMOR
Type : Turret, cast homogeneous steel; Hull, rolled and cast homogeneous steel; Welded assembly
Hull Thickness Actual Angle w/vertical
Front, upper 2.5 inches 47 degrees
Front, lower 4.25 to 2.0 inches 0 to 56 degrees
Sides 1.5 inches 0 degrees
Rear 1.5 inches 10 to 22 degrees
Top 0.75 inches 83 to 90 degrees
Floor, front 1.0 inches 90 degrees
Floor, rear 0.5 inches 90 degrees
Turret Thickness
Actual Angle w/vertical
Gun shield 3.5 inches 0 degrees
Front 2.5 inches 40 to 45 degrees
Sides 2.5 inches 0 to 13 degrees
Rear 2.5 inches 0 degrees
Top 1.0 inches 90 degrees
Out,
BigKev
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I don't think the armour hitboxes are very accurate so I wouldn't be inclined to agree with people who say a panther should be heavily perked because of its frontal armour.
:huh
"Hit box" in AH is the shape of the object. Not sure what you are talking about?
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Do you guys think the Sherman 76mm (not firefly) would be a good match to the Panzer IV we have in-game?
:salute
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Do you guys think the Sherman 76mm (not firefly) would be a good match to the Panzer IV we have in-game?
:salute
Yes it would be a good match, and the E8 version of the Sherman I think would have the Edge over all.
Bigkev,
"Easy 8" was more mobile and slightly faster then the older Shermans. The reason being the E8 used the much wider HVSS suspension. That with the 500 HP V8 in the A3 version of the Sherman made for a very big improvement over the older models.
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Yeah, that picture is of the only Super Pershing (M26-E4) to see service and action in the ETO with the 33rd Armored Regiment/3rd AD. It's only saw 10 days of combat. It was equipped with a 90 mm/70 caliber T15E1 high-velocity gun. Here is the story of the only combat during its very brief combat tour.
ack-ack
Good stuff thanks Ack
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Couple of better shots of the "Super Pershing"
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/fsrpcunha/SuperPershing_1.jpg)
(http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/m26e3jwnswexp04_1.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CbwnjooteyI/STLQFb0DQHI/AAAAAAAAdNk/-504FJWXGUM/s400/52.jpg)
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They had an 18yo as gunner for it? Some luck for that kid..
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They had an 18yo as gunner for it? Some luck for that kid..
LOL yeah, I have his book. It doesn't really talk about the super Pershing much though, just what it was like to drive.
Its called another river, another town.
Death traps has more info on the Super Pershing.
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They had an 18yo as gunner for it? Some luck for that kid..
Yeah, he got lucky when the King Tiger presented him with a belly shot. It's unfortunate that a HE round was loaded when they first hit the King Tiger in the turret. If an AP round was loaded that King Tiger would have been dead on the first shot.
ack-ack
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Yeah that's luck, but I mean being assigned to one of the very few SPs.
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Also noticed where all 3 90mm shells hit the Panther. That was pretty cool, you could see the holes in the fire.
Yeah, always thought that part was cool.
Imagine the uproar if this Pershing version was asked for.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Super_pershing.jpg)
ack-ack
Ack-Ack, is that kludgy-looking apparatus on top of the turret meant to help support the weight of the barrel and mantlet?
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Thats a pair of springs to support the longer barrel on the gun. I have a book somewhere in the Library here that describes them and the gun in detail, but I can't find it at the moment.
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I'm pretty sure I've read in several sources that Patton felt the M4 Sherman was an inferior tank, and he suggested several different replacements. I do not remember Patton ever pushing for the Sherman, at least not outside of pushing for more Shermans because there was practically nothing else to be had.
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I'm pretty sure I've read in several sources that Patton felt the M4 Sherman was an inferior tank, and he suggested several different replacements. I do not remember Patton ever pushing for the Sherman, at least not outside of pushing for more Shermans because there was practically nothing else to be had.
This is my source:
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8549/pattonvsm261.jpg)
(http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3875/pattonvsm262.jpg)
No scanner ATM and the preceding page, which tells of a demonstration in England for the Brass in 1944 and more of Patton's objections to the M-26, is not part of the publisher's preview of the book on the net.
wrongway
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M26 is a gorgeous tank. Right next to the T34 as most beautiful tank of the war.
I too would love to see it in the game, definitely as a perk ride though. The story of the M26 is a fascinating one although I never knew Patton was against deploying it. That shows a real lack of common sense and concern for his soldiers. Patton was a schmuck....I am sure of it. They did not start building the first 20 T26E3s until November of 1944 and even then the Army Ground Forces Board wanted to dick around with deploying the damned things. Then the Battle of the Bulge happened and the American General Staff intervened in the disagreements about M26 configuration/battle testing and finally ordered immediate shipment of the 20 available T26E3s to Europe without further bureaucratic hassling.
They had the basic vehicle (T25 mounting the 90mm cannon) designed and ready to mass produce in April of 43. I dont have any hard data here but it should be safe to that hundreds, if not thousands of M4 crewmen were killed and wounded who otherwise would have remained safe inside a M26 Pershing. It was a tragic affair to have given priority to the M4 series over this weapon.
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This is my source:
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8549/pattonvsm261.jpg)
(http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3875/pattonvsm262.jpg)
No scanner ATM and the preceding page, which tells of a demonstration in England for the Brass in 1944 and more of Patton's objections to the M-26, is not part of the publisher's preview of the book on the net.
wrongway
I am pretty sure that gets debunked in several other books, but I can not remember what one. I will see if I can find it tonight and post back. No idea if my books are more right then death traps though.
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Ack-Ack, is that kludgy-looking apparatus on top of the turret meant to help support the weight of the barrel and mantlet?
Yeah, that M26 was a one of the original prototype M26 tanks they put the new gun in. The big springs were to counter balance the gun, but the production model would not have needed them. There are pics in a few books of a later test model still around at Knox or Aberdeen.
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M26 is a gorgeous tank. Right next to the T34 as most beautiful tank of the war.
I too would love to see it in the game, definitely as a perk ride though. The story of the M26 is a fascinating one although I never knew Patton was against deploying it. That shows a real lack of common sense and concern for his soldiers. Patton was a schmuck....I am sure of it. They did not start building the first 20 T26E3s until November of 1944 and even then the Army Ground Forces Board wanted to dick around with deploying the damned things. Then the Battle of the Bulge happened and the American General Staff intervened in the disagreements about M26 configuration/battle testing and finally ordered immediate shipment of the 20 available T26E3s to Europe without further bureaucratic hassling.
They had the basic vehicle (T25 mounting the 90mm cannon) designed and ready to mass produce in April of 43. I dont have any hard data here but it should be safe to that hundreds, if not thousands of M4 crewmen were killed and wounded who otherwise would have remained safe inside a M26 Pershing. It was a tragic affair to have given priority to the M4 series over this weapon.
Yep, it was really a good design and shows how good the U.S. was at incorporating the lessons everyone learned in tank Design from all fighting. The basic design changed very little until the M47.
Power pack in the rear, so no drive shaft running through the hull making the tank taller.
Well sloped cast armor so its well protected and easy to produce.
Good suspension.
Gun stabilizer
Good gun system
Decent power
Reliable
Had the war gone on with the Germans the Pershing and better crews would have much less trouble with German armor. Not to mention the later war M4s like the A1 and A3 were showing up with the HVSS suspension and decent 76MM gun that was enough to handle Panzer 4s with ease(T34 as well).
We would have been able to handle the Russian armor fairly well, as Korea showed. I think the Pershing would have handled the JS 2 fine... maybe not the 3 though, but the 3 wasn't that good of a tank. Had we needed to we would have had super Pershing in the fight that could handle anything with its gun.
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I think that if it was used in War 2 it should be added, the fewer used the higher the perk!
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #2
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moin
if we get the pershing i want this version.....
(http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/m26e3jwnswexp04_2.jpg)
besides the king tiger surly.... ;)
cu chris3
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...it's not the size that matters...
....'yall keep saying :D
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...it's not the size that matters...
....'yall keep saying :D
ok, than i will have a hetzer, hehe ;)
cu
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ok, than i will have a hetzer, hehe ;)
cu
You'd probably play with it way too much. ;)
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See Rules #2, #4
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Gto, Bigplay, both of you are on a short rope right now.
Take that as a final warning.
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Gto, Bigplay, both of you are on a short rope right now.
Take that as a final warning.
Ok ........my posting days are over !