Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: TheWobble on February 24, 2001, 02:14:00 PM
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Ok I may be wrong here but it seems that no matter how low you fly you will still produce a red bar in a square to the enemy, if correct why??
Shouldent be able to fly below the radar horizon, and if so there would be NO indication to the enemy where you are. I often fly the B-26 and fly very far into enemy terr, i usually try a very sneaky route to avoid enima fighters.
My usual tactic for the 26 is to come in to the target at about 12,000 feet and at max speed, hit the target as quick as possible and the DIVE yes dive, down to around 250 feet. Why? you ask, well the 26 has no damn bottom turret so all fighters have to do is get under ya and they can gobble ya up, plus flying higher wont do much to avoid fighters and they will catch you and then attack yer belly, so flying VERY low eliminates some of yer vulerability, plus the 26 goes about 280 on the deck so ya get home quicker.
I was also under the impression that once i was below radar (500 feet ???) that I would not still show a red bar to them.
ok so the question is:
Doese going below 500 eliminate the dar-bar?
and if not, why not?? it makes sense that it would.
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
Ok I may be wrong here but it seems that no matter how low you fly you will still produce a red bar in a square to the enemy, if correct why??
Shouldent be able to fly below the radar horizon, and if so there would be NO indication to the enemy where you are. I often fly the B-26 and fly very far into enemy terr, i usually try a very sneaky route to avoid enima fighters.
My usual tactic for the 26 is to come in to the target at about 12,000 feet and at max speed, hit the target as quick as possible and the DIVE yes dive, down to around 250 feet. Why? you ask, well the 26 has no damn bottom turret so all fighters have to do is get under ya and they can gobble ya up, plus flying higher wont do much to avoid fighters and they will catch you and then attack yer belly, so flying VERY low eliminates some of yer vulerability, plus the 26 goes about 280 on the deck so ya get home quicker.
I was also under the impression that once i was below radar (500 feet ???) that I would not still show a red bar to them.
ok so the question is:
Doese going below 500 eliminate the dar-bar?
and if not, why not?? it makes sense that it would.
The red bar simulates the reporting by the indigenous population of an enemy aircraft in the area. It's kind of a weak theory to think there would be an unpopulated enemy country you could bomb or strafe with impunity simply because you came in at low altitude.
IMO anyone who believes they should be able to bomb / strafe an enemy field and not suffer damage or death for it, particularly as a lone wolf tactic, needs to just play offline with drones. It just ain't realistic to have that expectation even in a game.
Mav
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The red bar simulates the reporting by the indigenous population of an enemy aircraft in the area
Well if thats how it works the red bad shouldent pop up the INSTANT you enter the grid, there should be a few miniutes before the "local population" can
A: get to the phone.
B: call in the sighting.
C: convince the military their not drunk.
they should have villages that you have to avoid to not get sighted, not just some assumpton that some imbread sheep pedifile is gonna see yer bomber hurteling at 50 feet over 10 miles away.
all of that assuming that they werent too buisy with a sheep.
besides, this happens over open ocean who is reporting me then? mermaids? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), where are all these huts and villages?
Not a strong excuse for the dar-bar IMO.
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The sector bars simulate jack squat. They are a gameplay concession for people too impatient to find the enemy.
It's kind of a weak theory to think there would be an unpopulated enemy country you could bomb or strafe with impunity simply because you came in at low altitude.
Yeah such a weak theory, that the US designed several aircraft to do just that during the Cold War. Such a weak theory, that the Allies ran thousands of sorties like this from England into occupied Europe.
Stealth was a real factor in a lot of WW2 air combat. In the MA it is not a factor at all. In fact it has been outlawed by the designers. I know for a fact this has cost HTC more than one customer. And that's sad. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-24-2001).]
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I just feel that if your below 500 feet and nowhere near any NME bases or cities or installations of any kind, they should have no inkiling that your there. the dar-bar really butchers the aspect of stratigy of sneaking and out of enemy terr.
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TW 1
Mav 0
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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There has been talk about implementing a system which will not show a red bar when aircraft are below 500ft. The issue is that a system like this has to take into account that bases do not have alarm systems or anyway of notifying a team its under attack. Sooo vehicles will still have to issue a red bar until bases can alert the team.
SKurj
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There has been talk about implementing a system which will not show a red bar when aircraft are below 500ft. The issue is that a system like this has to take into account that bases do not have alarm systems or anyway of notifying a team its under attack. Sooo vehicles will still have to issue a red bar until bases can alert the team
I agree, but not until a vehicle fires a shot should it be known.
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NOE is always fun, whether to sneak up on someone or test your skills. But this darbar stuff is something I've had enough of. No low level attacks, no sneaking up, no psychological warfare. It stinks! Instead of this current stuff, let's modify a few things. First off, anything BELOW 500 AGL can't be seen as a darbar or as a dot. Anything between 500 and 2,500 feet AGL shows up as a darbar. Above 2,500 feet you get your normal radar dots. Darbars should only show up near the front lines, I'd say within one grid. So around fields you've got a 12.5 mile sector covered by radar. Beyond that for one grid in every direction you get darbars. Anything farther out you get NOTHING! No more watching the darbar grow clear across the fraggin map.
Around factories, cities, and HQs we should have an entire grid of dot radar coverage. With two grids in every direction around them showing darbars. This gives a somewhat rough simulation of a stragetic defense radar net. Just like Germany and the UK had during the war.
So let's fast-forward a bit now. We've got everything I stated above, and things are getting settled. No darbars for ground vehicles or aircraft flying below 500 feet AGL (above ground level for the non-informed). Between 500 feet and 2,500 feet, you get the usual darbar which tells you something is up. Above that normal dot radar. Here's a pic showing what I mean, to avoid confusing everyone to Hell and Gone.
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/radar.gif)
The radar example at the bottom shows what my proposal would look like. Darbars would show up one grid away from a field, two grids away from a strat target. Dot dar would only show enemy dots half a grid from a field, or one grid for strat targets.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was
Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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EXACTLY FLAK! EXACTLY I hope HiTech sees this.
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Agreed! Love this idea.
Its GOTTA be in 1.06 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Its just has to... has too... zzzzzzz
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I like the idea flak. Now if we could only get a slight ack delay as well then there would be a purpose to doing 'rhubarb' style missions.
I have visions of a flight of Jugs doing a low-level sortie to an enemy base, loaded with rockets. 4 fighters scream across the field at 200 feet, taking the ack by surprise. 20 seconds after the first aircraft enters ack range, all acks can start firing.
BUT only if the flight has been made below 500 feet!
But it will probably never happen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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Ya I dont think anyone can object that this is a good change, HTC WE NEED THIS!.
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I can. Getting people organized to defend HQ against incoming bombers is hard enough when you actually have some advanced warning of a strike...this would just make it that much harder, and having no dar sucks and causes some people to log. Just because an idea seems great to you doesn't mean others will have the same enthusiasm for it.
On the other hand, I don't agree with my above stated opposing opinion & I think everything that Flakbait mentioned sounds great. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
SOB
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Getting people organized to defend HQ against incoming bombers is hard enough when you actually have some advanced warning of a strike...this would just make it that much harder
Well SOB, according to the GODLY idea if they were flying high (which is what makes them hard to get) they would show up on dar with PLENTY of time to get some intercept together, however if they stayed low, they would:
A: have to climb at least 1 grid before target to not get shot to hell by the target's ack.
B: if they come in very low (below dar)once you realize attack is on you could launch and immediatly enguage them insted of havng to climb forever because they will have had to come in at 500 feet or less to suprise ya.
there problem solved!
Of course A: doesent really apply to a JABO attack but cmon..DONT BE A WET BLANKET!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Ok, now that I've got your attention with my radar proposal here's a few more things. Ack delay is a good thing, but 20 seconds gives me enough time (personally) to down about 4-6 acks before it lights my fuzzy butt up. This is using an La-5, not a dedicated ack killer with bombs and rockets. So you want an ack delay? Ok, give it about 4 seconds worth. Look at your watch and count off 4 seconds; it's a long time. In 4 seconds at 350 mph you will move a distance of 2048 feet. That's a long ways in 4 seconds. And you want a 20 second delay? You could have a field flattened in that time. Even four seconds is a bit much since the distance traveled is so far. But it's better than the insta-ack we've got now.
Base alerts. Well, if we want HTC to use my radar proposal we're gonna have to figure this thing out. We could do an alert in the text buffer, flash the base icon on the map, or even pop a window up right in your face. But since that would cause an excessive amount of crashes, it's not a good idea. A text alert is pretty pointless, simply because most people don't use RW. Plus that text alert would just fly past in the radio buffer. If you loaded the buffer with alerts you'd lose a LOT of comm traffic. So that's out. So how about this: the base icon flashes red and green for about 10 seconds, then quits for 10 seconds. It does this four times before going quiet for a minute, then it starts up again. At the same time everyone hears a sound file playing "Our field is being attacked!". This gives you both an audio and visual warning. We could also have the clipboard automatically pop up when a base is attacked. This would warn people who don't have their sound on, and could be an option.
For strat targets and warning, an air raid siren works perfectly. Again we could have a flashing red and green dot on the map showing which factory the enemy is attacking. Or we could simply flash the nearest base icon, not giving an exact position of the attack. This would make people LOOK for the enemy and not STARE at the map. Since the warning sounds are different you'd know the difference between a simple base raid and an assault on your strategic resources. This effectively solves the warning problem while giving a somewhat realistic radar system.
This will work, all we need now is HT's take on it.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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Just model some ground soldiers to run from the barracks and tower towards the AA.. if you shoot them otw the ack doesnt get manned for 10 seconds (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now hows THAT for some vulching! Heeeheee
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Yep Flakbait, 2048 feet. The acks currently open up at around 8000 feet range, so under your 4 second proposal the acks would now open up whilst the attackers were some 6000 feet (2000 yards) from the field.
It would take roughly 12 seconds from the time you came into ack range until you were directly over the field, leaving you 8 seconds to de-ack the entire field in safety.
And flak, if you can currently de-ack an entire field in 20 seconds without EVER climbing above 500 feet..... then I'd sure love to see a film of it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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For a con at 10k show the radar dot at 2 sectors, at 15k show for 3 sectors at 20k 4 sectors and at 25k and up show it for 5 sectors. Radar range is greatly increased by altitude. So alt dweebs show up at historically long ranges.
I think its a shame that you are mixing your great radar change scheme in with a delay in ack. The delay will not happen in my mind but with thought the dar change might.
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I I agree, the acks needs tweaking but lets fight 1 battle at a time here, lets get this radar stuff noticed and addressed before we tack on any other "gripes", we dont want the addition of other "problems" to obscure the orignal situation.
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One of the funniest missions I flew ever was a NOE B-25 Mitchells' against some country (can't remember if frogs or barneys) back in WB. We flatten the city (or whatever the target was, It was long ago) at the cost of half of the B-25's involved.
The level of immersion was impressive. The flight to the target, tense. Keeping the altitude below radar level is a challenging task under ground circumstances. Some 4-5 planes popped into the ground.
Nothing of this can be done with the current counter bar situation.
I like Flakbait's & Wobble idea. Please, Htc. allow NOE missions. Give the TG the chance to be a REAL threat.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Ack delay is something for the future, not right now. So yeah Wobble you're right we should attack one problem at a time. Keeps things simple. The warning system seems fine by me, so does the radar range and altitude limits. I wouldn't want to catch a 20k contact at 5 grids distance, since that would let you figure his altitude and range. But we could tweak the system a bit to allow for something like that Pongo. Just not at 5 grids distance; you could see a long ways into enemy territory. Heres a simple example using a field's radar:
0-500 ft AGL: No radar contacts
500-2,500: darbar lights up
2,500+: dot dar comes on
Range: dot dar
0-500 ft AGL: nothing
500-2,500: 12.5 miles (1/2 grid)
2,500-7K: 25 miles (1 grid)
7k-15k: 37.5 miles (1 1/2 grids)
15k+: 50 miles (2 grids)
Range: dar bar
0-500 ft AGL: nothing
500-2,500: 25 miles (1 grid)
2,500-7k: 37.5 miles (1 1/2 grids)
7k-15k: 50 miles (2 grids)
15k+: 50 miles (2 grids)
Think it could work? We'd have to extend the radar range from my previous example, efectively doubling it for strat targets. The down side is you'd have even more dot dar showing contacts. Now we could chop the above ranges in half to get a somewhat shorter warning time. Personally I would cut those ranges by half, if anything to limit the dot dar to directly around a country's assets.
Jekyll, you forgot something. Guns have a range of 800 yards at 350 mph and I don't know about you, but I open up on acks when they get in guns range. Not when I'm directly over the field. That way I can kill more of 'em and get out of range; I don't like holes in my plane since they tend to damage things I need. Like gas tanks and guns. As for de-acking a field solo in 20 seconds, I've never done it. I have seen guys in the MA who come in using a Kette of three and wipe acks off the map that fast. The highest number of acks I've killed in 20 seconds is 4-6 depending on how I set my run up.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 02-26-2001).]
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Originally posted by funked:
The sector bars simulate jack squat. They are a gameplay concession for people too impatient to find the enemy.
Yeah such a weak theory, that the US designed several aircraft to do just that during the Cold War. Such a weak theory, that the Allies ran thousands of sorties like this from England into occupied Europe.
Stealth was a real factor in a lot of WW2 air combat. In the MA it is not a factor at all. In fact it has been outlawed by the designers. I know for a fact this has cost HTC more than one customer. And that's sad. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-24-2001).]
Funked
Last time I checked, cold war and gulf war planes were not in this game.
Allies did run thousands of sorties into the continent. Many of them were intercepted. That is why the allies lost so many bombers to AA and fighters. Deception plans designed to "foil" the enemies determination of the raid target was a normal tactic. Seems it wasn't all that successful all the time.
I still stand by the premise that it is highly "unrealistic" to figure that you should be able to fly over enemy terrain, bomb / strafe an enemy installation and do so unobserved and unapposed. If that is what you want, then you need to limit yourself to the drones off line.
I figured the reason for a multiplayer online game based on WW2 combat was to foster the players getting the combat they pay their $30.00 a month for. I think the fact that most players are actually playing in the MA or scenarios with other players on the enemy side validates this premise. If not, then there would be many more in the TA just bombing / strafing the red fields with no players defending them.
There is my position on it. Feel free to start up with the usual character assassination / flame fest.
Mav
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I like flack baits revision.
I think anti dar load outs would be great too. window and such.
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As everyone knows, no matter ehat is dont there will always be someone squeaking. But i think less people would squeak about flakbaits's (and mine) idea than would squeak about it. besides at least our way would be realistic!
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I agree with Flak and Wobble on this one. In fact I'd personaly think it would be good to see the dot dar done away with altogether and replaced with system of text warnings simulating radio reports from controllers (not that this will ever happen, considering how many people log off when the dar goes down). Dot dar should only be for those aircraft equiped with radar (i.e. night fighters, and then only imperfectly and within the radar cone). General reports could be issued for large numbers of bandits or facilies under attack and there could be a way to request a local report (anybody remember talking to the Dentist in MiG Alley? - something like that with voice recording would be really sweet).
The bar dar would remain as a general indicator.
OK this is all pie and the sky as there are other more important areas to work on, and cause less controversy, but I can wish (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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I still stand by the premise that it is highly "unrealistic" to figure that you should be able to fly over enemy terrain, bomb / strafe an enemy installation and do so unobserved and unapposed.
Umm Maverick. Ever heard of 'rhubarbs'? Ever heard of the 'Doolittle Raid'? Or how about the ultra-low level Dornier sorties against British airfields during the Battle of Britain? Or the 'DamBuster' mission? Or the Mosquito raid on Gestapo Headquarters, or the sinking of the Tirpitz etc etc etc.
Unrealistic, huh?
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 02-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by funked:
The sector bars simulate jack squat. They are a gameplay concession for people too impatient to find the enemy.
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actually Dar in AH is less effective then WW2 Dar. i think Germany had dar along the coast that could see Allied bombers forming up over england before raids.
WW2 dar gave Direction of travel, altitude, and baring. Dar in ww2 was better then most know or like to think.
Sector bars simulate, coast watchers, fishing boats, farmers, resistance fighters.
i dont think, MA Dar should show counters beyond 1 sector of bases adjacent to enemy bases. if i take off on my mainland no enemy should see my sector bar untill i get to within 1 to 2 sectors of the front lines.
whels
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actually Dar in AH is less effective then WW2 Dar. i think Germany had dar along the coast that could see Allied bombers forming up over england before raids.
WW2 dar gave Direction of travel, altitude, and baring. Dar in ww2 was better then most know or like to think.
Sector bars simulate, coast watchers, fishing boats, farmers, resistance fighters.
i dont think, MA Dar should show counters beyond 1 sector of bases adjacent to enemy bases. if i take off on my mainland no enemy should see my sector bar untill i get to within 1 to 2 sectors of the front lines.
its not the dar-bars that bother us so much, its the fact that no matter low you fly you will ALWAYS show up on radar, even if you fly at 50 feet off the water you will still show up, THATS the problem because:
A: its totally un-realistic
B: it removes any possability of sneak raids that were a major part of ww2.
not being able to go below radar totally removes some very fun options from the game.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-27-2001).]
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NOE craft shouldnt show on bar dar or dot dar period.
Simulate farmers or the like? Hell, then Model THEM into the game so I can shoot the sumsqueakes and pave a way for my force to sneak through. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hi all,
All sounds good to me but don't forget many fields are above 500ft alt anyway so it wouldn't have as much effect as people seem to think. Mind you it would make sneaking up on the CV a lot easier.
The delayed ack has come up several times before (No pun intended) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and still sounds good. I like the idea of swarms of little grunts running out to man them. (And being able to strafe them to delay the acks coming up still further). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
TTFN
snafu
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All sounds good to me but don't forget many fields are above 500ft
We mean 500 feet AG, not 500 feet ASL.
as long as yer less the 500 feet off the ground you shouldent show up, of course if yer flying over the peak of a mountin at 500 feet you should show up, but not if yer weaving through canyons or just flat ground.
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Sneak raids where important in WW2. But here we have almost none of the disadvantages of flying at 200 feet. The deck was a dangorous place to be in WW2.
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keep the bars, reduce enemy icon range to 1.5
who's got all day to fly around such a huge map not even knowing if anyone is in a particular grid? With a lower icon range it would give you a higher "sneak" factor while still telling you with a bar that something was in the grid.
smaller map, yeah then the bar could go...
Eagler
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Originally posted by Jekyll:
Umm Maverick. Ever heard of 'rhubarbs'? Ever heard of the 'Doolittle Raid'? Or how about the ultra-low level Dornier sorties against British airfields during the Battle of Britain? Or the 'DamBuster' mission? Or the Mosquito raid on Gestapo Headquarters, or the sinking of the Tirpitz etc etc etc.
Unrealistic, huh?
Jekyll,
Ever hear why the Brits changed to night bombing missions instead of daylight??? Ever hear of the 8th Air Forces "excessive and unsupportable" losses in daylight missions?? Why did those losses only slow down after the introduction of long range fighter aircraft capable of making it all the way into the target?? Why were the chances of completing a tour of duty as a bomber crewman almost impossible in the first half of the war??? I think the Memphis Belle story might give you a clue.
Did you take a look at the losses of the damn busters raid??? Almost 50% if I recall on one raid. They didn't all fly into wires that night. Why was that raid conducted at night???
Why did the Doolittle raid take off from the position they did instead of the planned location that was much closer to the mainland??? Why did the B29's hitting Japan initially fly as high as they did before LeMay ordered them to conduct mid level fire bomb raids?? Why did many of those same B29's not make it back to base after the mission??
Yes there were several missions that were in effect unopposed. The multiple thousands of bomber aircrew on both sides who did not survive are a testament that most of those missions were intercepted by some obviously effective form of interception.
Yes, expectations of unobserved unopposed buff raids deep into an enemy country ARE unrealistic. Just why are buffs in the game given a gunnery range advantage and ultra accurate bomb sights?
Mav
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FYI, HT stated that if he ever considered changing anything in regards to radar, the ONLY thing he'd consider is changing to it is the elimination of the "Bar Dar" for A/C under 500 feet.
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FYI, HT stated that if he ever considered changing anything in regards to radar, the ONLY thing he'd consider is changing to it is the elimination of the "Bar Dar" for A/C under 500 feet.
Thats exactly what we want.
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I would not ask for more than that.
Cheers,
Pepe