Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: caldera on April 02, 2009, 09:24:04 PM
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Often times when gaining the advantage against a Spit (particularly 16s), they go into the on the deck "NASCAR" style one man luftberry. Round and round and round. Of course, I'm a moron for getting suckered into this situation. What are my options for beating this once I realize I'm stuck in it?
Here is one example of what I'm talking about:
http://files.filefront.com/nascar+spitahf/;13532098;/fileinfo.html (http://files.filefront.com/nascar+spitahf/;13532098;/fileinfo.html)
Granted, I have very little seat time in the FM2, but this guy was running circles around me. Pun intended.
And I apologize for some of the views, as I'm ham-fisted and bump into the zoom button all the time. :o
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Seemed to me like you should have been dumping the flaps out a bit more and kicking some rudder into that turn. I could be wrong though, I never fly the FM2. If I had been the Spit driver, I would have tried to spiral you up a bit to take advantage of the Spit16s power.
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A Spit XVI entered a slow, flat-turning contest with you in an FM-2, and you LOST? The FM-2 will eat any Spit except MAYBE the Mk.I alive in a sustained turning contest (I LOVE it when Spixteens try to turn with me when I'm in an FM-2 :t ). The only fighter that should consistently beat the FM-2 in a luftberry in the A6M, so that Spixteen is actually flying right into your game by trying it. Get some time in the FM-2 to get a feel for her, and anyone who's not flying a Zeke that tries that on you is toast.
As for escaping, with the FM-2 you don't have as many options to get out of the luftberry once you're committed. She doesn't accelerate well unless pointed downhill, and sustained rate of climb isn't remarkable either. Vertical performance is much better than the F4F-4, but she still tends to be a bit sluggish maneuvering nose-high unless you've got a decent amount of speed. Best thing to do in the Wildcat if you're in that sort of fight is to just hang on for the ride with your microscopic turn radius and get your flaps down.
Especially against the Spit dweebs that thing they can turn with everything. :D
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I can't understand why I was losing either. I have beaten this move in a P-40 for God's sake. I tried flaps out. Pulled them back in and nothing.
This went on for several minutes. I gradually started losing e and finally had to make a break for it.
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Caldera:
Although the FM2 can fly slower and sustain a tighter turn radius, I suspect the Spit16's engine power gives it a better sustained rate. A Luftberry chase like that favors turn rate. That is why you found yourself with your nose stuck in lag and loosing angles at times.
At many points in the fight, you reduced throttle at times when you would have been better off to have not. At some of these points you were well below corner and in a level or slightly ascending turn, in a nose-to-tail chase You would gained angles quicker being closer to your corner velocity. There is time to cut throttle, when you are below corner velocity trying to out-rate someone is not that time.
From about time 00:55 while you were in a chasing descent would have been a good time to use abit more of a low-yo-yo type action to close the distance and gain some angles with lead pursuit+gravity assist in the turn. Look at a freeze frame from around time 01:20 and imagine your plane rolled farther to the left in the turn, just slightly inverted, that is what I'm talking about. More throttle cutting you probably don't need a little after this, trying to chase a Spitfire into an ascending turn...
Anyway, you end up on the deck, chasing the Spit around in the Luftberry, he's gradually gaining angles. This is not a surprise, or a pilot error on your part, logically turn rate would go to the very powerful Spit once the FM2's E is all gone. You recognized a situation going South, extended to gain abit oh E, and Grumman toughness plus that small barrel roll saved you and killed the bad guy. I would have said something here about reversing your turn to the right back into the Spit to start a nose-to-nose series of turns/flat scissor type action which *would* favor the FM2s tight-turn radius/slow flight ability, but I can see you probably thought about it and decided against it because there was big hill right off your right wing. :D
BTW, I feel your pain on the shooting. Many is the time I've had him RIGHT THERE but somehow he just doesn't go down. I can say that after I've turned off tracers and decided to shun zooming while shooting, things seemed to have improved abit.
<S>
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Caldera, I have good news for your trouble and it's an easy fix. Don't let some complicated answer confuse you. I watched the first couple of minutes of the flight. You lost angles because you voluntarily surrendered E with your repeated throttle reductions. With the spit16's stellar acceleration, an fm2 can't give away any E voluntarily. If you were worried about overshoot, you should have banked some E by yo yo'ing up. The guy that told you to low yo yo is mistaken. Stay in your throttle and horde that E man. Instead of chopping to avoid overshoot, I repeat, yo yo up and bank the E. an FM2 does not accelerate well enough to be surrendering E to a spit 16 like that. He wasn't outflying you; you were killing yourself. :salute
Steve
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The guy that told you to low yo yo is mistaken.
Steve
Steve, look this frame from around 1:20ish. He is chasing the Spitty in a descending turn. He could have gained angles on the Spitty and some airspeed by banking to the left more in his pursuit. Pointing the canopy like the black arrow instead of the red arrow. This resembles a low yo-yo to me.
Too much throttle-chopping was already covered thank you very much sir, :D and stating WHY that Spit eventually started winning the Luftberry strikes me as useful information to know, not over-complication.
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/736e0ab7277d826fb7ec8c595d616e7b5g.jpg)
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Steve, look this frame from around 1:20ish. He is chasing the Spitty in a descending turn. He could have gained angles on the Spitty and some airspeed by banking to the left more in his pursuit. Pointing the canopy like the black arrow instead of the red arrow. This resembles a low yo-yo to me.
Too much throttle-chopping was already covered thank you very much sir, :D and stating WHY that Spit eventually started winning the Luftberry strikes me as useful information to know, not over-complication.
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/736e0ab7277d826fb7ec8c595d616e7b5g.jpg)
The low yoyo won't be needed if he's on the throttle. He didn't ask how to win the lufberry if he chops throttle.
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The low yoyo won't be needed if he's on the throttle. He didn't ask how to win the lufberry if he chops throttle.
"If" he had stayed on the gas, "If" he had shot down the Spitty on the first opportunity,"If" he had possessed the foresight to take off in a Spit16 himself :devil, or if his hobby was golf, we wouldn't have this thread. Fact remains a slight adjustment of his pursuit during the descending chase would have gained alot.
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"If" he had stayed on the gas, "If" he had shot down the Spitty on the first opportunity,"If" he had possessed the foresight to take off in a Spit16 himself :devil, or if his hobby was golf, we wouldn't have this thread. Fact remains a slight adjustment of his pursuit during the descending chase would have gained alot.
The fact is, he asked how to defeat a lufberry. He did not ask hot to regain angles and E after he chopped throttle so the low yo yo does not apply. You are arguing for arguments sake, which is your MO. Waste someone else's time, you'll get no more of mine. Ignored.
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You cut throttle at 10 seconds. You should not have. And then again at 25-30 seconds. Realize that this is a friggin Spit 16. Do everything you can to stay attached to his ass, because you won't get that close again unless he makes a mistake. Even if you overcompensate and are attached too close. You'll get out of it. Stay as close as you can. The Spixteen is an unmaneuverable dung piece, don't give him the opportunity to gain separation, because he will.
Your throttle chop at 1:07 was the right move, but you should have upped it immediately once you realized he was not making that turn tight. As it was, you waited a bit before going full throttle again.
At ~1:35, are your flaps out? If not, why not? You can pop flaps at around that time (luftberry) and get the kill. Easily.
Ok just watched from ~1:35 on. It seems from your gauges that you do have your flaps out. One more notch and you'd have had them fully deployed. I'm not sure if you had stall limiter on, or what, but I know that an FM2 with full flaps deployed should have easily gotten around on a spixteen, if not with instantaneous turn, then overall.
I think the issue might have been in your decision to go luftberry and not use yoyo at all in gaining angles. From most of the time from ~1:35 towards the end, that poor spixteen is panicking. It's only when you can't nose around, and stall out, that he regains initiative. Again, I can't say why that occurred, but I know that luftberry in an FM2 against a spixteen should be no contest so it might be a stall limiter issue.
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I'm watching again and I can tell you definitively your best chance is from 1:00 to 1:15.
What you do is keep full throttle and try to gain a solution in a nose down manuever, which is limiting your turn rate.
What you should have done is chop throttle and get your flaps out while turning level to the horizon. Then once your nose is in front of bandit flight path, throttle up to gain gun platform stability, and get your solution. You'd have had your nose out in front for a firing solution easily, and the fight would be over.
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Again, I can't say why that occurred, but I know that luftberry in an FM2 against a spixteen should be no contest so it might be a stall limiter issue.
I *can* say why it occured. Just checked Mosq's data, and it turns out that the Spit16 does sustain a slightly higher turn rate than the FM2. I am actually surprised that the rate advantage isn't more than it is. Between that, and needlessly dumping E, we have the answer.
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I *can* say why it occured. Just checked Mosq's data, and it turns out that the Spit16 does sustain a slightly higher turn rate than the FM2. I am actually surprised that the rate advantage isn't more than it is. Between that, and needlessly dumping E, we have the answer.
Well then, it appears that MOSQ's data is highly subjective. Check out his tests for DokGonzo's fighter comparison charts. FM-2 has the edge in turn radius over Spit16, 516 to 567 without flaps, and 406 to 450 with flaps.
Not sure which is accurate, but I do know that when E is dumped unnecessarily, it costs the aggressor many a shot opportunity later in the fight. E should only be dumped in the certainty that a shot opportunity will result, or the certainty that such an offensive maneuver will create panic in an unseasoned opponent.
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I did not refer to turn radius. I referred to turn rate.
<S>
Well then, it appears that MOSQ's data is highly subjective. Check out his tests for DokGonzo's fighter comparison charts. FM-2 has the edge in turn radius over Spit16, 516 to 567 without flaps, and 406 to 450 with flaps.
Not sure which is accurate, but I do know that when E is dumped unnecessarily, it costs the aggressor many a shot opportunity later in the fight. E should only be dumped in the certainty that a shot opportunity will result, or the certainty that such an offensive maneuver will create panic in an unseasoned opponent.
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I did not refer to turn radius. I referred to turn rate.
<S>
Where are you getting your turn rate data? And - this turn rate data - at what speed is it representative of?
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Turn "rate" data is inherently counter-intuitive in a luftberry discussion. Luftberry is sustained. Turn rate is instantaneous.
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Turn "rate" data is inherently counter-intuitive in a luftberry discussion. Luftberry is sustained. Turn rate is instantaneous.
Uh, no...planes do have a maximum possible turn rate we call "instantaneous", which they cannot sustain. But they will also have a lower best rate of turn which they can sustain. And turn rate is a bigger factor in a nose-to-tail chase (of which, two fellows chasing each oter in a left Luftberry in an example) than turn radius.
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Steve, if you can restrain yourself from accusing me of being mistaken when I am not, and from calling a post of mine which any high school graduate can understand over-complicated, then I can restrain myself from tediously explaining, using small words and pictures, why I am neither mistaken nor over-complicating the issue. If not, then my compulsion will tend to get the best of me.
The fact is, he asked how to defeat a lufberry. He did not ask hot to regain angles and E after he chopped throttle so the low yo yo does not apply. You are arguing for arguments sake, which is your MO. Waste someone else's time, you'll get no more of mine. Ignored.
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Uh, no...planes do have a maximum possible turn rate we call "instantaneous", which they cannot sustain. But they will also have a lower best rate of turn which they can sustain. And turn rate is a bigger factor in a nose-to-tail chase (of which, two fellows chasing each oter in a left Luftberry in an example) than turn radius.
Unless I am grossly misinformed (which actually is quite possible), "turn rate" cannot be two things at once. As you explained, yes, "turn rate" is instantaneous turn rate. To explain the sustained turning ability of an aircraft, we call it "turn radius". Am I wrong? Again, I could be, I'm honestly asking.
Does not make sense to me that the term "turn rate" would be instantaneous turn rate in one case, and then it would also be sustained turn rate whenever it fits BnZs' argument.
Think about two fellows chasing each other in a Luftberry. What's more important...turn rate and getting around for a "one pull of the trigger" shot, or turn radius and winning the nose over advantage for multiple pulls of the trigger? Again, I still believe that radius trumps rate in Luftberry. But perhaps I am wrong.
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Unless I am grossly misinformed (which actually is quite possible), "turn rate" cannot be two things at once. As you explained, yes, "turn rate" is instantaneous turn rate. To explain the sustained turning ability of an aircraft, we call it "turn radius". Am I wrong? Again, I could be, I'm honestly asking.
Turn rate refers to how quickly the airplane is turning, usually given in degrees per second. According to Mosq's data, the Spit16 seems to have the slight edge over the FM2 here. Turn radius refers to how small a circle it is making while doing so.
Think about two fellows chasing each other in a Luftberry. What's more important...turn rate and getting around for a "one pull of the trigger" shot, or turn radius and winning the nose over advantage for multiple pulls of the trigger? Again, I still believe that radius trumps rate in Luftberry. But perhaps I am wrong.
Two planes in a sustained nose-to-tail chase like this, the airplane with the better sustained rate is slowly gaining angles, even if the other has somewhat better radius.
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Ok, I guess I am mistakenly substituting the term "turn radius" for "sustained turn rate". I suppose I had the terminology wrong. But I'd still like to see MOSQ's data on this (not that I'm saying you're being untruthful, just curious). Because I can't imagine a Spit16 beating an FM2 in sustained turn rate, unless the calculation in question takes into account horsepower relative to weight/climb rate/pilot skill. With these factors it's possible, even likely, for a Spit 16 to win against an FM2 once a luftberry is initiated. But with equal pilots in a straight luftberry, I just can't see at all how the Spit16 has a chance.
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Two planes in a sustained nose-to-tail chase like this, the airplane with the better sustained rate is slowly gaining angles, even if the other has somewhat better radius.
Doesn't there come a point where the turn rate advantage is so marginal that the tighter turning radius takes over?
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The fact is, he asked how to defeat a lufberry. He did not ask hot to regain angles and E after he chopped throttle so the low yo yo does not apply. You are arguing for arguments sake, which is your MO. Waste someone else's time, you'll get no more of mine. Ignored.
Yep.
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My excel sheet shows the SpitXVI and FM2 very close in turn rate.
Time to complete a sustained-turn 360 on the deck with 75% fuel:
FM2: 16.63s
XVI: 15.77s
By the numbers, the XVI out turns the FM-2. Remember that the vast majority of XVI pilots you run into don't have a clue, but when you run into one that does the XVI's perkability really shines through. :devil
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Edit: watched the film. That XVI pilot is one of those guys who always flies the XVI, but is still not very good. If I had been in his shoes I would've used my superior climbrate right from the beginning.
If I were the FM-2 pilot I would be careful about using flaps. With such a poor thrust/drag ratio split flaps somtimes do more harm than good.
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Thank you all for your replies. :salute Maybe I was thinking that the FM2 was was such a superior turner - that made me keep slowing down. I just kept going slower, figuring I'd be around on him soon. I can see now how dumb that was. Good advice to keep on the gas. I do keep the stall limiter on. I've only flown without it twice and I dropped like a rock. I'm not sure I want to relearn to fly just to get a slight turn advantage. I think tactics (or lack thereof as displayed in the film) are a much bigger determinant of the fight. I think I lose many more fights because of bad decisions rather than aircraft performance.
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Thank you all for your replies. :salute Maybe I was thinking that the FM2 was was such a superior turner - that made me keep slowing down. I just kept going slower, figuring I'd be around on him soon. I can see now how dumb that was. Good advice to keep on the gas. I do keep the stall limiter on. I've only flown without it twice and I dropped like a rock. I'm not sure I want to relearn to fly just to get a slight turn advantage.
It may seem only as a slight advantage at first glance, but in many turnfights, having stall limiter on or off makes all the difference between cartoon life & cartoon death.
Disable it. Give yourself a week or two of getting used to it. Come to the TA to practice flying at the limits of your plane.
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Holy smokes! Turn that stall limiter off! :O
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Holy smokes! Turn that stall limiter off! :O
+eleventy billion
Really, just give yourself time to get used to having it off and you'll never want to turn it back on.
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You are severely limiting your planes capabilities by flying with the stall limiter on. I flew with it on for the first 6 months when I started. It was on by default & I didn't even know about it. I was advised to turn it off & try it. I did so & crashed a lot for a week or two but once I learned to listen to the stall horn it reduced the auger factor considerably. The longer you fly with it on the harder it will be to make the adjustment to flying without it.
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I don't think anyone who made the switch and gave it time is ever going to advocate switching back. Myself, turned it off two months ago, turned it back on two months ago, then turned it off and finally accepted i was going to spin out a lot as I learned to fly without it.
Took a few weeks but now I'm listening to the horn and the buffeting and can tell how much room I have so I rarely get in trouble because of it.
I would never go back.
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The stall limiter is degrading you controls by close to 15%
Can you afford to give that much up??
As others said,"take the time and learn to fly without it"
I personally have the stall buzzer and buffet sounds turned off,I feel they are a limiter of sorts too.When the sound off it's natural to back off abit,I dont hear them so I dont back off!
Although you do tend to loose the odd plane that way.... :devil
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Alright, alright. I'll turn off the stall limiter. As if I didn't auger enough already. Now I suppose you're all going to tell me to turn off combat trim and tracers too. :uhoh
BTW Lusche, would you happen to have a chart showing turn performance with and without the stall limiter? I would like to see just how much it really helps.
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Alright, alright. I'll turn off the stall limiter. As if I didn't auger enough already. Now I suppose you're all going to tell me to turn off combat trim and tracers too. :uhoh
Hehe, not me.. though depending on you plane trimming manually at least occasionally does help or can be even mandatory. I fly with CT on 90% of my time, but I have it (and the trim tabs) mapped to my stick.. it's necessary when flying 109s or F4U's for example.
BTW Lusche, would you happen to have a chart showing turn performance with and without the stall limiter? I would like to see just how much it really helps.
Sorry, I dont have such a thing. But trust us ;) - it's really worth taking it off. Often I can easly tell when I'm fighting against a opponent with SL still enabled...
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it's necessary when flying 109s or F4U's for example.
I'm intrigued, please elucidate.
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I'm intrigued, please elucidate.
I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that Combat Trim doesn't properly take into account that the flaps are out. So, dropping flaps really makes your trim go kerflewy unless you trim manually. And those aircraft make more use of flaps then many others.
Something along that line anyway.
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I'm intrigued, please elucidate.
109 elevator controls get really heavy when going fast, for example when trying to follow a pony diving down to the deck. Without manual trim you might (and many will :D) auger in such a situation.
In a F4U, it's like PFactor said - When dropping flaps you plane will be easier controllable without CT. With CT you will have to fight against your plane to prevent your nose going up.
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I have to admit that I only browsed the thread, but a few comments come to mind.
*One, chopping throttle in a luftberry situation is a no-no. In sustained turns, your biggest enemy is lack of thrust, because if you are sustaining a high AoA, you are buring all of your thrust energy with drag. Slowing down kills your rate of turn.
*Slowing down does not automatically reduce your turn radius when you're in sustained turns. To the contrary, your radius deteriorates.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/109G6vP-51DSL.jpg)
Note the turn radius scale denoted by the black diagonal lines. At corner velocity, the 109G at 240 mph can pull a radius of about 640 ft. Down at sustained turn speed, it's turn radius is close to 700 ft. The exception is if you are slowing down to deploy flaps. This changes your foil shape, and therefore changes your turning capibilities. However, with that said, depending on the airframe, it is likely that slowing down to deploy flaps will also deteriorate your rate of turn.
*Turn radius will not always determine the outcome of a fight. Especially when it comes to a luftberry scenario. The plane that can travel around a 360 faster, can beat a plane turning a smaller circle.
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imo
CT is for cruising around and b&z
manual trim is for t&b
stall limiter is for rookies & retards - expect to lose the majority of your t&b's if you enable it
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I actually have a similar question
I don't see an answer yet on how to escape once you have been suckered into a luftberry, with an FM2 you should hang, but what about a poor turning plane getting sucked in, like a 190 VS a spit?
is there an escape method?
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[quote author=Eagler link=topic=262028.msg3256292#msg3256292 date=1238791630
stall limiter is for rookies & retards - expect to lose the majority of your t&b's if you enable it
[/quote]
Excuse me, Your Snootiness. I was doing all right being a retard. Disabled the stall limiter and flew into the DA horde and stalled out or lost control on 30+ flights. (Tried the MA but it was either fight the green horde or hang out at 2k right off an enemy field and run out of gas because nobody ups.And there were only 6 people in the TA, so I didn't bother) I would out maneuver someone and instant loss of control. I actually think it turned better with the limiter on. Before disabling it, I never went into a wing rocking stall without any warning. No buzzer, just BAM - shudder and loss of control. I don't know how to even find the limit since there is no warning. This sucks.
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[quote author=Eagler link=topic=262028.msg3256292#msg3256292 date=1238791630
stall limiter is for rookies & retards - expect to lose the majority of your t&b's if you enable it
Excuse me, Your Snootiness. I was doing all right being a retard. Disabled the stall limiter and flew into the DA horde and stalled out or lost control on 30+ flights. (Tried the MA but it was either fight the green horde or hang out at 2k right off an enemy field and run out of gas because nobody ups.And there were only 6 people in the TA, so I didn't bother) I would out maneuver someone and instant loss of control. I actually think it turned better with the limiter on. Before disabling it, I never went into a wing rocking stall without any warning. No buzzer, just BAM - shudder and loss of control. I don't know how to even find the limit since there is no warning. This sucks.
You might want to take a look at your stick scaling. If you're stalling out that hard without warning, you must be pulling waaay to hard on the stick and/or your elevator axis is too aggressively sensitive.
There's a good thread that discusses Ak-Ak's stick scaling that's worth a look if you haven't already. Probably worth a second look now that you're taking a shot at no stall limiter.
Keep in mind that the Stall Limiter has been allowing you to fly with a pretty heavy hand. Flying without it will teach you to fly with more finesse and in the end will make you a much better pilot.
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I actually have a similar question
I don't see an answer yet on how to escape once you have been suckered into a luftberry, with an FM2 you should hang, but what about a poor turning plane getting sucked in, like a 190 VS a spit?
is there an escape method?
enter enter enter
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I actually have a similar question
I don't see an answer yet on how to escape once you have been suckered into a luftberry, with an FM2 you should hang, but what about a poor turning plane getting sucked in, like a 190 VS a spit?
is there an escape method?
There actually is, but remember the earlier you do it the better.
While in the circle gently and quickly ease off your turning. Try to get the balance of accelerating and turning away from his nose. Basically you want to have him turn as much as possible while you're accelerating away.
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I use little high yo-yos. Say two or three per circle. nose up a few degrees for a third of your circle, then pull the nose down quicker into the circle. Picture an incline ramp going up, then a strait drop of at the end. It seems to me to free up the plane I'm flying a bit more, and also seems to add angles for me.
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enter enter enter
:lol
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Greetings & Salutations One & All :)
Although I'm not qualified to tell anyone How to beat a luftberry, I do have info as to HOW a WWII Ace & Luftwaffe pilot, Hans-Joachim Marseille, beat the Luftberry Circle many a time, included for ur pleasure & edification is the following:
Google" the info, searching for Hans-Joachim Marseille., or Joachim Marseille.
Learn from a real life expert fighter pilot. :salute
Best info is on the wikipedia.org site
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joachim_Marseille
Star of Africa's way of beating the luftberry :)
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Caldera the stall limiter is like ABS or traction control in cars. You're better off without them.
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Steve, look this frame from around 1:20ish. He is chasing the Spitty in a descending turn. He could have gained angles on the Spitty and some airspeed by banking to the left more in his pursuit. Pointing the canopy like the black arrow instead of the red arrow. This resembles a low yo-yo to me.
Too much throttle-chopping was already covered thank you very much sir, :D and stating WHY that Spit eventually started winning the Luftberry strikes me as useful information to know, not over-complication.
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/736e0ab7277d826fb7ec8c595d616e7b5g.jpg)
I disagree here I would have gone with the red arrow maybe even bringing it straighter, he would open better shots up having a view of the top of his plane and easier angles<S>
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[quote author=Eagler link=topic=262028.msg3256292#msg3256292 date=1238791630
stall limiter is for rookies & retards - expect to lose the majority of your t&b's if you enable it
Excuse me, Your Snootiness. I was doing all right being a retard. Disabled the stall limiter and flew into the DA horde and stalled out or lost control on 30+ flights. (Tried the MA but it was either fight the green horde or hang out at 2k right off an enemy field and run out of gas because nobody ups.And there were only 6 people in the TA, so I didn't bother) I would out maneuver someone and instant loss of control. I actually think it turned better with the limiter on. Before disabling it, I never went into a wing rocking stall without any warning. No buzzer, just BAM - shudder and loss of control. I don't know how to even find the limit since there is no warning. This sucks.
LOL then you have something WAY out of whack - the stall buzzer should be going off like crazy way before you drop out of the sky.
Just trying to help you - stall limiter is for rookies - the sooner you learn to fly without it, the better.
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imo
CT is for cruising around and b&z
manual trim is for t&b
stall limiter is for rookies & retards - expect to lose the majority of your t&b's if you enable it
Agree.
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After practising the displacment roll.( Look under how to beat flat turn.) It is amazing how you don't need to follow them down into a sustatined flat turn.
Ok here are a few tips on how to get out once in.
Think. Do I need a gun solution to kill them? NO.
1. You dont get out if your the fm2 you have to fight it out. If i am losing the turn I extend and put my nose down extending knowing in a few sec the spit will be on my six. At this point this is where you want them. If they are close pull a flat turn of your own then start a barrel roll If he is good your dead anyway if not. He will either overshoot or if your are smooth in the barrel roll and you are close to the ground bring your barrel as close to the ground as you can. 9 time out of ten they will hit the ground as they try to get a gun solution. . Try for the auger kill. Part of my thinking when close to the ground in a turn and burn. Is to get as many auger kills as possible. Remember the ground never loses the fight. The other night I got three of my 4 kills in one sortie by guys hitting the dirt behind me. The spit can have a nasty snap roll. Use it to there disadvantage.
If you have more alt go into a rolling scissors. It is a must. It is hard for a spit to stay with a you in the scissors.
2. If i have enough distance after nose down and extend pull hard flat turn and go nose to nose merge. play the angles from there.
3. One more if your are on there six in the turn pull over the top. You will be upside down as they are coming around the circle try to get the angle shot. if you have enough time roll upright. granted it is an angle shot and you will lose e to get the shot.
Hope this helps.
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After practising the displacment roll.( Look under how to beat flat turn.) It is amazing how you don't need to follow them down into a sustatined flat turn.
Ok here are a few tips on how to get out once in.
Think. Do I need a gun solution to kill them? NO.
1. You dont get out if your the fm2 you have to fight it out. If i am losing the turn I extend and put my nose down extending knowing in a few sec the spit will be on my six. At this point this is where you want them. If they are close pull a flat turn of your own then start a barrel roll If he is good your dead anyway if not. He will either overshoot or if your are smooth in the barrel roll and you are close to the ground bring your barrel as close to the ground as you can. 9 time out of ten they will hit the ground as they try to get a gun solution. . Try for the auger kill. Part of my thinking when close to the ground in a turn and burn. Is to get as many auger kills as possible. Remember the ground never loses the fight. The other night I got three of my 4 kills in one sortie by guys hitting the dirt behind me. The spit can have a nasty snap roll. Use it to there disadvantage.
If you have more alt go into a rolling scissors. It is a must. It is hard for a spit to stay with a you in the scissors.
2. If i have enough distance after nose down and extend pull hard flat turn and go nose to nose merge. play the angles from there.
3. One more if your are on there six in the turn pull over the top. You will be upside down as they are coming around the circle try to get the angle shot. if you have enough time roll upright. granted it is an angle shot and you will lose e to get the shot.
Hope this helps.
Good points. Thanks.