Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: StSanta on October 21, 2000, 04:52:00 AM
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Ok, just wondering if anyone experience "early 190A5 syndrome" with the Typhoon?
I.e it maneuvers well outside what one would expect. One outturned my 109G10 (admittedly, not too hard to do, but still). It comes over the top in a half loop very quickly indeed, and pulls into the vertical as if it was on rails.
I don't have any numbers, but I recall the 190A5 fix started with a similar post. If you remember, I wasn't too happy about the A5 fm once the novelty of being able to turn wore off and the analytic part of my mind overrode the pleasure center (doesn't happen often (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)).
Did the Typhoon outturn the chog (which can be followed in a turn by a G10)? Did it pull into the vertical faster? Was it known to keep e well in turns?
Dunno much about the tiffie, but thought it to be somewhat like the A8 - heavy, but deadly.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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I just logged out 20 mins ago after Fatty got me twice flying a Tiffe. I watched him from my Ostwind just South of A18, and he was doing fine. The 190 near 18 looked a little off kilter, but Fatty's Typhoon wasn't doing anything I'd consider "Illegal". He'd pull rather nice wing-overs to roll in, zoom just fine up to about 3 or 4,000 feet. All in all from my point of view, it looked like a Typhoon that was perfectly normal.
I flew it a bit just before logging out. Can't say I'm terribly impressed by the performance since anyone worth their weight can pound one. Didn't get any kills with it, but the zoom seemed a tad strong from high speeds. I was around 350mph and tried zooming from 5k, just to see how things went. It carried me to almost 9k before stalling. The stall was gentile, almost a mirror of a 109 stall.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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I don't see anything wrong with the Tiffy as it is and it is nowhere comparable to the 190a5 in past versions as far as uber went. The Tiffy still has many drawbacks such as not very good at alt, even above 10k you notice the difference. Also the fuel doesn't last long at all so there is not much loitering available.
I don't fly it that much but I like it how it is and at least it's more competitive now.
Nexx
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I think the Torque is very weak. and I mean WEAK. This was a plane that with full rudder deflection yawed to the right so hard during the takeoff that some hangard had to be removed on RAF's Airfields!!!!!!!
Other than the torque (but it is a VERY important thing), the FM feels ok to me. Not a good E retainer in turns, can do some good moves on the vertical. The zoom seems very potent, dunno if it is OK or is a bit overdone.
And the low speed handling is very good. In a kite with the largest 4 bladed prop in the world and a monster engine like the napier sabre I think that the torque is WAY too few.
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The pilot accounts I have posted on this board indicate that the Typhoon was a handful on takeoff and in low speed flying. It's pretty easy to take off in now IMHO. But then none of the other planes seem to have much torque either. I have a feeling this is due to something in the overall model, not a particular flaw in the Typhoon model.
As for energy-retention, Wells' calculations show it should be one of the better planes.
There simply aren't a lot of books in print on this plane (at least in the US) so I wish I knew more.
BTW Flakbait, all else being equal, heavy planes will zoom better than light planes when starting at high speeds. Typhoon is outweighed only by the P-47, is about the same weight as the F4U, and has less drag than the P-47 or the F4U (which were two planes noted for ability to zoom). The Typhoon should be (and is) a zoom monster at low levels. Just because a Typhoon is below you, do not assume he has less energy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-21-2000).]
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You're right about the Torque RAM - that huge swinging prop. should manifest itself a little more (compared to the other planes).
Landing it can be a complete nightmare though (at least without rudder pedals) - at low speeds in rolls over into the tarmac very easily. I now use the L/R wheel brakes to steer it down the runway now. Far safer.
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I knew the Typhoon was heavy, but I had no idea it out-weighed everything but a Jug.
In regards to torque being shot, well we all know that. I'm still dreaming of the BETA torque and watching guys actually DIE taking off!
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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In AH, Tiffie does some *quick* turns when it has some speed more than 160mph or so..
E-retention is bad in tiffie if you turn or fly without engines (perhaps worst gliding planes in AH) and RPMs aren't much of a help.
Tiffie can climb at least 2500fpm with 2000lbs of bombs and full fuel tank, sounds pretty amazing for the plane that is close to a P-47.
I don't know much of Typhoon, but I don't think it was like this in real life, because it sure weren't credited for being air to air fighter, which this AH tiffie does very well.
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I can't say anything for sure, I have no data to back it up, but it does "feel" like it performs too well to me.
It seems that if it had performed like it does in AH right now, RAF Fighter Command would not have been horribly disappointed by it and nearly canceled it. The only thing that kept it in production was the fact that it was the only thing that could catch Fw190s on their low altitude nuisance raids. It was intended to replace the Spitfire the same way the Spitfire had replaced the Hurricane. That didn't happen because the Spitfire MkVb was a better fighter than the Typhoon. In AH the Typhoon is a much better fighter than the Spitfire MkVb. It was, more or less, a failure as a fighter.
But, unfortunately, all of this is just conjecture. I have no performance data to back it up.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Fishu wrote:
I don't know much of Typhoon, but I don't think it was like this in real life, because it sure weren't credited for being air to air fighter, which this AH tiffie does very well.
The MA is very unlike real-life. Just for example, performance at altitude and range were much more important in the real world than they are in AH.
Also aircraft reputations from the War always have to be taken in context. Perhaps the typhoon got "bad reviews" because it was reviewed by spit jocks who disliked its poor turning ability (just like spit jocks hated the 47). Other examples: The P-40 is a pretty good turner but that is hardly its reputation because it often fought zeros. The P-38 had a great reputation in the Pacific yet a poor reputation in the European theatre.
Hooligan
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One reason it seems to perform better in AH than for the RAF command, is because the AH arena does NOT mirror what happened in the real battles.
The average combat altitude in the Main Arena is lower by about 10,000 ft or more, than that experienced in real life.
That makes the Tiffie much more competitive
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Fishu:
In AH, Tiffie does some *quick* turns when it has some speed more than 160mph or so..
E-retention is bad in tiffie if you turn or fly without engines (perhaps worst gliding planes in AH) and RPMs aren't much of a help.
Tiffie can climb at least 2500fpm with 2000lbs of bombs and full fuel tank, sounds pretty amazing for the plane that is close to a P-47.
I don't know much of Typhoon, but I don't think it was like this in real life, because it sure weren't credited for being air to air fighter, which this AH tiffie does very well.
P-38 can climb at nearly 3000fpm with bombs, AND outweighs the P-47.
Something is porked! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
- Jig
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Ive spent 6 weeks now in the Typhoon. It does not turn well at low speed, it wont glide well with a dead engine.
It is a heavy AC and does zoom well.
I think it handles well at alt against other Zoomers, p51, 109g10 and so on.
Here is film of my Typhoon against 2 p51s ( Packrat & jstamutt went rook and hunted me, i thought i was on the way to Wing with them )
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/surprise.zip (http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/surprise.zip)
This is my Tiffy with Eaglers 109 low,on the deck and i did manage to stall trying to get a lead shot. Watch from F4 view..
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/wd-eagler.zip (http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/wd-eagler.zip)
Also a hell of a good fight against magic in his Yak..
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/wd-magic.zip (http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/wd-magic.zip)
Enjoy.. Funked will get a kick outa the 1st film. My boys set me up for a fall (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dog out.........
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Originally posted by Jigster:
P-38 can climb at nearly 3000fpm with bombs, AND outweighs the P-47.
Something is porked! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
- Jig
Hmm *ponders whether any LW planes would get up in AH with more than 1500lb load*
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Speaking of torque, has anyone noticed that over the last few releases the torque seems to have be reduced for all planes? Now you can take off with full power and wep with any fighter and hardly have to use any rudder to counteract the torque. Stall fighting seems a bit easier too.
ra
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*ponders why Fishu considers LW/Allied bias before examining the physics of climb rate when carrying a load*
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-21-2000).]
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From Osprey's 'Typhoon and Tempest Aces of WW2':
In the latter half of 1943 Sqd Ldr Desmond Scott of 486 Sqd engaged a captured Fw190 (formerly of SKG10)in a Typhoon and reported being;
"...surprised by it's speed and manoeuvrability. But I was confident I could get the better of it, providing we remained below 10000 feet. Above that altitude it was a different story. the higher we went the more like a carthorse I became..."
Later the same day Scott engaged a 190 for real at low level. It became a turning fight on the deck:
"I applied the pressure to get my sights ahead of him, but I kept losing my vision as the blood was forced out of my head... I could see him looking back at me on the other side of our tight circle. I knew he was experiencing the same effects, and although I could feel my aircraft staggering, I continued to apply the pressure. I was beginning to gain on him, but was still well off the required deflection. With my heart pounding in my throat, I applied some top rudder to get above him. Just as I did so, his wings gave a wobble and flicked over and hit the sea upside-down.
"I saw the great shower of spray his aircraft sent up, but not much else. I blacked out, went out of control myself, and recovered from my downward plunge just clear of the water. According to Fitz I had spun upwards. it could easily have been the other way, and both myself and my LW opponent would have ended up under water."
The Tiffie had been a dissapointment for the RAF because of it's appalling early safety record and poor high altitude performance. Once the former had improved and the latter been accomodated by restricting the a./c to low altitude ops, the Tiffie was effective in an A-A role.
It's performance relative to that of the FW190 given above is interesting - compared to the two planes in AH, HTC's modelling seems pretty accurate. At low alt, they're a good match, pilot skill frequently being the decider.
Vladd
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I agree Vlad, except for one thing - the Typhoon's speed edge at low levels can be used more in AH than in real life due to the icon system. If the Typhoon makes a level extension or makes a very high-speed climb he can always build up more energy than the Fw and then, because the icons let him keep sight and judge closure rate at extreme range, he can reverse and engage the Fw from an energy advantage. In AH we are doing ACM at ranges where real pilots were struggling to get a tally or confirm friend or foe.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-21-2000).]
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"Just as I did so, his wings gave a wobble and flicked over and hit the sea upside-down.
"I saw the great shower of spray his aircraft sent up, but not much else. I blacked out, went out of control myself, and recovered from my downward plunge just clear of the water. According to Fitz I had spun upwards."
Lucky for him the Typhoon's Napier Sabre engine spins in the opposite direction to the Fw 190's BMW 801, I'd say this is probably what caused his plane to spin up instead of down?
Oops, that bit of top rudder might have helped too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 10-21-2000).]
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What funked said.
Also, that fight is a high speed turning one, where maneuverability isn't so much an issue on reasonably similar aircraft, but pilot endurance is.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Maybe one day HTC could put some nyances to the planes....
[cut]
However, the Sabre never managed to overcome its tendency to catch on fire on startup, with 28 Typhoons burned up in this fashion during 1944 and 1945. A well-known painting of a Typhoon in colors worn in the late summer of 1944 features the following text marked on the aircraft's radiator:
IF THIS ENGINE CATCHES FIRE ON STARTING, DON'T JUST WAVE YOUR ARMS AT THE PILOT -- TRY PUTTING THE BLOODY THING OUT AS WELL.
For better and for worse, the Sabre was a unique engine. Its starter system used what looked like a giant shotgun shell to get the big engine turned over with a loud bang, and once rolling it turned over at fantastic RPM. The Sabre had a distinctive whine that German troops learned to recognize and fear.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Staga:
Maybe one day HTC could put some nyances to the planes....
[cut]
However, the Sabre never managed to overcome its tendency to catch on fire on startup, with 28 Typhoons burned up in this fashion during 1944 and 1945. A well-known painting of a Typhoon in colors worn in the late summer of 1944 features the following text marked on the aircraft's radiator:
IF THIS ENGINE CATCHES FIRE ON STARTING, DON'T JUST WAVE YOUR ARMS AT THE PILOT -- TRY PUTTING THE BLOODY THING OUT AS WELL.
For better and for worse, the Sabre was a unique engine. Its starter system used what looked like a giant shotgun shell to get the big engine turned over with a loud bang, and once rolling it turned over at fantastic RPM. The Sabre had a distinctive whine that German troops learned to recognize and fear.
[/cut]
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Starter shells weren't exclusive to the Sabre either. Hehe, those things are cool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
- Jig
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Hi
Those sabre engines sound like crap, much worse than Merlin or DB605. They have this nasty badly running engine sound like some giant POS 4 banger.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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...RAF Fighter Command would not have been horribly disappointed by it and nearly canceled it.
The Typhoon was pushed very hurredly into service long before it was ready and pilots reacted accordingly. By the time it had its 'patches' ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)), such as a strengthened tailplane that wouldn't rip of in a dive, it was a very well liked plane.
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Originally posted by funked:
I agree Vlad, except for one thing - the Typhoon's speed edge at low levels can be used more in AH than in real life due to the icon system. If the Typhoon makes a level extension or makes a very high-speed climb he can always build up more energy than the Fw and then, because the icons let him keep sight and judge closure rate at extreme range, he can reverse and engage the Fw from an energy advantage. In AH we are doing ACM at ranges where real pilots were struggling to get a tally or confirm friend or foe.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-21-2000).]
I'm not a no-icon fan, but I think that's accurate. I most certainly judge closure rates on both ends based on the icons, and make my decision to pull or extend based on relative speeds.
Also most underestimated by opponents in an E-happy arena is a fast low typhoon. A shallow dive into a furball resulting in 400+ ground level flight can catch a LOT of slower planes on the top arc of a loop, as well as be enough speed to avoid bounces.
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Got something for you Typhoon nuts...
Typhoon enging and start sounds (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/typhoon.zip)
The start sound needs work, and I'm still tinkering with it but the run sound is simply unreal. Crank that bad boy up and feel the floor vibrate! Literally!
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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WTG Flakbait! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Was thinking about the lack of tiffie sounds here.
The engine run sound is awesome.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-25-2000).]
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flak, the run sound is UNBELIEVABLE!
Man I need a new subwoofer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) That engine sound and Fishu / Mitsu's explosions..