Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: StSanta on June 27, 2000, 02:56:00 AM
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Is the WWII equivalent of the A-10.
We need a tankbuster, man. Now, fields under attack frequently have lots of of tanks on them.
I don't think it will upset game play; say a Stuka with a BFG - any fighter would be able to take it down, but when it has CAP, it would, like in real life, shine.
I for one would be MORE than willing to take it up - I've just begun to really enjoy air to ground jabo missions.
We need a dedicated tankbuster (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Would be SOO much fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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There can be only one choice. And that choice is Il-2.
(http://hep2.physics.arizona.edu/~savin/ram/il-2-12-prev.jpg)
And to kill tanks, these would be nice.
PTAB-2.5-1.5 anti-tank bomb.
Hollow charge bomb. Designation 'PTAB' stays literally for Anti-Tank Aviation Bomb, ProtivoTankovaja AviaBomba. Its weight was 1.5kg, but it was fitted in standard 'body' of light 2.5kg aviation bomb. Normally they were housed in the KMB (Kasseta Melkih Bomb, small bomb canister) 48 in each, and were released at once to cover large area.
For example, the Il-2 'Sturmovik' carried four such cassettes in its armored wing bomb bays (not 'beneath' the wing, as written in many sources). When all 192 PTABs were released from 70 to 100m altitude, practically all tanks on the 15x70m2 area were hit. PTAB charge could penetrate armor up to 70mm. Since German tanks used gasoline, it could take single PTAB to burn into engine section and bring tank to flames. Explosion of fuel tanks frequently resulted in ammo detonation...
First use - Oriol-Kursk sector battle in July 1943. On July 2 group of eight Il-2 (Captain M.I.Smilskij, 1st Guard Assault Division) performed five runs over about 70 German tanks poised for attack, dropping no less than 1200 PTABs. Fifteen machines were set afire.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 06-28-2000).]
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yep the IL-2 will be cool
don't forget the ju-87G with 37mm cannon
and the HS-129
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First of all i vote for il-2, then hs129, then ju87 (37mm).
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I like the IL-2 idea the most.Im just curious but ,was the bf-110 g-2 ever used to kill tanks with its 2 20s and 2 30s?
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hurricane IId (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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hiya,
the bf110g was never used against tanks.
but i want a FW 190F/G modell in here.
with all different weapons aviable.
means panzerblitz, panzerschreck rockets.
and the SD250,500,1000KG cluster bombs.
would be nice to have such bombs against
soft targets like M16/M3, acks,troups...
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/habichtnew.gif)
"Die Ta 152 war meine Überlebensversicherung in den letzten Tagen des Krieges" OFw Willi Reschke, Ritterkreuzträger, 38 Abschüsse
[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 06-27-2000).]
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How about the almighty me-410?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) i think that would be nice vs tanks and everything
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Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10 Il-10
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Torquila I don't think you'll find any WW2 vets who would call the 410 "mighty" LOL! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ok, let's do some thinking...
What kills tanks?
-heavy hannons
-bombs
-rockets
We already have planes with bombs and rockets but still most tank kills are done by strafing with cannons. (Un)fortunately 20 mm (and even more so low velocity 30 mm's) are quite ineffective against tanks as they should be.
Thus we need bigger cannons
What kind of plane is ideal for tank killing?
-must be durable against ground fire
-must have some defensive firepower agaisnt fighters
-decent low alt speed to get out of area if needed
What are the candidates?
Il-2 - very durable but offers nothing new in armament department, bombs and rockets with couple 20 or 23 mm cannons, no more punch than in ordinary fighter. But with NS 37 it has quite a punch against tanks. Has some defensive firepower and is sufficiently fast. Over 36 000 built.
Hs 129 - Again very durable plane, maybe even more than Il-2 because of twin engine configuration. In basic configuration has 2 X LMG, 2 X 20 mm's and 1 X high velocity 30 mm cannons. Had variant with 75 mm Pak 40, essentially the same gun as in PzKw IVH we have now! This is a one shot wonder, single round will kill almost any tank. Rate of fire was 40 RPM. Quite fast but has no defensive firepower. About 900 built.
(http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/vy75/planes/hs-129-s.gif)
Ju 87G - This is paper plane compared to first two planes. On the other hand, armament is propably best for tank bustin, 2 X high velocity 37 mm cannons. Not too fast and defensive firepower is quite limited. Total of all Ju 87 variants produced 5700.
(http://danshistory.com/ww2/stuka37.jpg)
My choice? As much as I like Lufwaffe planes I would think that Il-2 could be best choice:
-Never seen before in online sim
-Huge number of planes produced during war
-Good armour should make it quite survivable if it has some air cover.
-With 37 mm cannon it has a good change against tanks.
-possible a very fun ride for two players, pilots and a gunner.
-Complemets nicely VVS planeset, allowing very interesting scenarios.
One could argue that P-39 had 37 mm cannon too, why not introduce it? It has the gun and it has the speed...
I'm not sure if 37 mm gun in P-39 ever fired AP rounds which are absolutely essential for tank killing. plus it had unarmoured watercooled engine that is suspectible to ground fire.
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jochen Jagdflieger JG 2 'Richthofen' Aces High
jochen Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) Warbirds
Thanks for the Fw 190A-5 HTC!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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Jochen - don't forget the Il-10. Same armament as Il-2 but significantly faster and more maneuverable.
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I think an IL series would be IdeaL.
but at some point the hs129 should show up with that pak 38 or pak 40.
And 190F of course.
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All of the planes mentioned here would be nice, but in the meantime the P-47 with 3x500 and 10 rockets can kill tanks better than any plane in the AH planeset, and better than most planes on this wishlist. And after it is finished killing tanks, it can kill everything else.
ra
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ra, true
But I wanna kill tanks with CANNON(s)!
I'm not partial here; ANY anti tank aircrafft with a BFG will do for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I mean, with 1.03 strategy has changed somewhat and now such a plane could be REALLY useful.
Plus, use that 37mm on a dude that is afk.....BOOOOOOOOM. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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funked, do you have any production/service numbers that mitigate the IL-10 vs. the (from what I understand) ubiquitous IL-2? If we can't have both, I'm pretty sure the IL-2 is the one to model. With the Stukas, I guess you'd have to model the G first, since the planeset is late-heavy, but a D and a B variant would have to be in the plans somewhere.
Plane choices have *got* to made more along the lines of "what was representative" than "what would be cool". The most representative planes should ALWAYS be modelled first, and then, after all these are modelled, and the designers have time on their hands, *then* we throw in the novelties. Any other approach cheapens any claim to historical accuracy, and turns the sim into an online "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe".
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Stigi, there were way more Il-2's than Il-10's. There were plenty of Il-10's though!
Since we already have a good start on a late-war plane set, I'd like to see it completed. Instead of a plane set with just a few planes from each time period, I'd rather see a plane set with a narrow time focus and a full complement of fighters, fighter bombers, attack/dive bombers, medium bombers, heavy bombers. Finish that, then pick another era and model it in detail.
Don't forget there is another sim that will be covering the Il-2 in detail. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"turns the sim into an online "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe"
Sounds great to me!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-27-2000).]
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The Il-10(NATO code "Beast" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) started series production in August 1944, and ended more than 10 years later with almost 5000 built in Russia, and about 1200 Czech license-built copies. Anyone know how many were actually built and used during WW2?
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The ultimate tank buster already exists in AH...
Chog.. this thing punches tanks maybe too easily, and handles like a fighter, and can carry 1000lb'ers and rockets...
It can easily kill 10 tanks a sortie, in the hands of a decent pilot (not me)
SKurj
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Originally posted by SKurj:
The ultimate tank buster already exists in AH...
Chog.. this thing punches tanks maybe too easily, and handles like a fighter, and can carry 1000lb'ers and rockets...
It can easily kill 10 tanks a sortie, in the hands of a decent pilot (not me)
SKurj
I think 12 is about double what is possible with 1.03. Maybe a real hot stick could do better but It seems to take me at best 80-100 rds per bank per tank.. course 16s are easier.
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Stuka! Yes, we need it, I might even take up Jabo as a second hobby. But only if it comes equiped with a dive siren.
I hold no ilusions, it will get chewed to pieces in a fair fight but with a few tweeks to the Icon system to help hide at low level, it would be fun.
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Greg 'wmutt' Cook
332nd Flying Mongrels
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I'm with Funked, the IL-10 would be great !!
And if your doing a late war tank buster (and we have a late war arena) then the IL-10 IS representative.
Of course I wouldn't argue with a P-63 in that role either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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if that rudel guy could find a way to kill fighters and a rediculous number of tanks mostly in a ju87 im sure someone in AH will find a way to be just as unstopable in it when its added
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Yeah, PTAB anti-tank cluster bombs would rock!
My vote, even though I am a Luftwafist at hard, would be for the Sturmovik.
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<cough> Il2 modelled elsewhere, even tho its been neutered in its present form. The Il2 was labelled a Flyin Coffin was it not? or was that just for its gunners? If the il2 is modelled the gunner (if another player) has to be killable +) Model the Il10, noone else has...
SKurj