Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: ygsmilo on February 27, 2001, 07:45:00 AM
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?
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Milo
3./JG2
"Speed is the cushion of sloppiness"
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Most sources say it used Mk 108 which is easy to belive since it was much lighter and shorter than Mk 103.
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Most versions had the MK 108 but the C-3 was supposed to have been fitted with the MK 103.
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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How widely (or should I say scarcely) was the Mk103 used anyway? What planes and factory conversion kits there were that sported the 103? At least some Fw190 variants had them but I can't remember if they were field or factory conversions and if they were factory conversions, were they produced in numbers.
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SageFIN
"I think IŽll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you donŽt
believe in Gosh too, youŽll be darned to heck."
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The Mk-103 was one of those mythical guns you read about but rarely saw service. I don't know if any Fw-190 model used it in a production run, but there were test aircraft that mounted them. The only aircraft I know of to use a Mk-103 in action was the Me-410 R3, which mounted a pair of them in addition to its normal armament. Then again this could be just another rumor, since I've never seen a photo of a Mk-103 on an Me-410.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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I think that the MK 103 saw most use as an anti-tank gun, slung under the Hs 129. In this role it fired tungsten-cored Hartkernmunition (or Wolframkern) which was highly effective. This plane/gun combination debuted in the battle of Kursk. In the air-to-air role it fire M-Geschoss, but I agree that it seems to have seen little use compared to the low-velocity MK 108. I think this is because for the same weight as one MK 103 they could have two MK 108, which between them had three times the rate of fire - and in close attacks against bombers, that's what counted.
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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He 219 had it, Me 410 and also a variant of Me 262 (H. Baer's).
It was planned for Go 229 too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
109K's had it, according to W. Green.
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LOL!
The whinefest will be HUGE if this gun is modeled. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hispanos are peashooters by comparison. <G>
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i know from a installation of a mk103 in a Do335.
The mk103 is not the super weapon. The rate of fire is too low. Kinetic energy of the shells is absolutly uninteresting when you shoot with mine shells, regarding damage. Aiming is easier with a high muzzle velocity, but at the end of the war the full automatic Revi EZ42 was developed, what almost nullified the disadvantage of a low muzzle velocity for aiming.
Does someone know whether the mg213C was used (30mm 1150rounds/min mv 550m/s, 20mm 1200 r/min mv 1000m/s)? This is a weapon youŽve to fear (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
niklas
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Some quick info about the Mk-103:
Muzzle velocity: 2620 ft/sec
Shell weight: 11.55 ounces
Rate of Fire: 420 rounds a minute
Mk-108 info for comparison:
Muzzle velocity: 1656 ft/sec
Shell weight: 10.9 ounces
Rate of Fire: 600 rounds a minute
A heavier shell traveling 1,000 feet a second faster than a Mk-108 round and it's not a super weapon? LOL!
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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See my post above about the German perception of the advantages of the MK 108 compared to the Mk 103 - which is why the MK 103 saw little use in the air-to-air role, even though it came out before the Mk 108.
The MK 103 was too big to fit in the Bf 109; see my article posted on http://www.bf109.com/frameset.html (http://www.bf109.com/frameset.html)
Both guns fired the same range of projectiles, and used M-Geschoss for air-to-air.
The MG 213C was tested in a Ta 152, IIRC, but did not enter service until nearly ten years later - as the Aden cannon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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There were several 262s in the shop being fitted out with MG213s as the war ended, full production of this gun was also getting underway, so late summer 45 262 were prolly to have these as standard. Interestingly enough there was a so called "mixed armament" 262 that did see service and some combat. This version had 2 MG151/20s, 2 MK108, and 2 MK103. Mite be a nice perk "perk" 262.
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(http://www.unsere-luftwaffe.de/archiv/bord/mk103.jpg)
MK 103 on a HS 129 B (pic from www.unsere-luftwaffe.de) (http://www.unsere-luftwaffe.de))
The gun's looks instantly reminded me of the 30mm chaingun on the AH 64 Apache...
Sascha
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Jagdgeschwader 77 "Herz As!"
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S!
Regarding usage of ammo to A/A.At least FAF used a mixture of M-Geschoss,AP,API and API(with tracer capability) on the MG151/20.If this mixture would be modeled in the AH,then the 20mm would be more lethal than it is now.Maybe only M-Geschoss modeled?The API could penetrate 23mm(very close to 1") and then it also had this incendiary effect too.This data is from FAF archives I have had opportunity to read through.
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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
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DB603, "mixed" ammunition belts are modeled in AH for all weapons, and if you look at the relative lethality of the MG151/20 (in relation to the Hispano) it is easy to see that the Mine shell is included as a 1 in 3 loadout. I don't have the link handy, but Hooligan did a study of the guns in AH that backs this up.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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A heavier shell traveling 1,000 feet a second faster than a Mk-108 round and it's not a super weapon? LOL!
it was a heavier shell, but it carried the same amount of explosive like the mk108 shell.
Again: Kinetic energy isnŽt important for a mine-shell! Even after 3000yards, a mk108 shell still has enough speed to pass through the thin skin of an aircraft. This is all it needs, and then... BUMMM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
niklas