Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Greedz on August 14, 2001, 10:09:00 AM
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I think it would be a very cool idea to add the Junkers Ju.87 'Stuka' Dive Bomber to the aces high arsenal.
A little info
From 1942 on the Ju 87G-1 was a dedicated anti-tank aircraft on the eastern front. It was fitted with a 1400hp Junkers Jumo 211J engine. It had a maximum speed of 314km/h, a ceiling of 8000m and a very limited range of only 320km. The reduced speed and range was due to the armour plating installed to protect the pilot and gunner when flying low-level tank busting missions. It was armed with two 30mm cannons in pods under the wings and a 7.92mm machine gun in the back for the gunner.
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I would love to see the Stuka added. We have the Il2 now we need the Stuka.
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If (as it appears) we're going to get the TU 2, then all we need is the Stuka and a Russian tank to set AH up for a squeakin' major Eastern Front scenario in the fall!
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S!
I think it would be a good idea to add the Stuka. It wouldn`t survive in the MA, but would be a good addition for the CA and for Scenarios. I think the Ju87D would be the best choice. It is a midwar Stuka, and would fit in with the Spit V, Hurri IIC, 109F4, 190A5 etc. It would be great for a Malta or Desert based CA. Or even an earlier East Front CA.
By the way, the G model had 37mm guns under the wings, not 30mm. They were adapted from an early war Werhmacht AT gun.
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I want the stuka - a lot. Maybe in v1.09?
I believe the G-1 made its combat debut at Kursk as a major force, and even them the Ju-87 D was more numerous. Not sure on that.
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G model Stuka would be nice, but also the one with Mg 151/20.
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LW currently needs the following:
Jabo: Me-410 B-2
Anti-tank platform: Ju-87 G-1
Heavy bomber: Either He-177, Do-217, Ju-290, Ju-188
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Ding,
The LW only needs two planes in order to be able to do it all by itself, the Me410A-1 or Me410B-2 and the Ju52.
The bomber issue is not as bad as you make it out to be.
The Ju88A-4 has the same bombload as the B-17G in AH. True, it can't defend itself like the B-17 or carry the bombload of the Lancaster, but it CAN get the job done. The heavier LW bombers would be nice to have, but they are not absolutely needed.
An Me410 bomber would be a far, far better tank killer than any Ju87, even the Ju87G.
The Ju87G, like the Hurricane MkIId that is coming in 1.08, would be mostly a CT or scenario aircraft. Eventually it will have to be added, the Ju87 is too important an aircraft not to, but I would much rather see the next German aircraft be a Me410 fighter/bomber.
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Karnak:
AH's Spit IX is having same armament as XIV. True, it doesn't have the speed of XIV but it CAN get the job done. Faster RAF fighters would be nice to have, but they are absolutely not needed.
<Just kidding but think about that one again> ;)
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Sorry- I'm with Karnak on this one. The Stuka would be "cool" to have, but I'd rather see the Me-410. The 410 was used as a bomber interceptor AND a fighter-bomber, so I'd rather have that than the Stuka.
And NO, the Germans don't need a heavy bomber. Well, not in my opinion anyway. If you want to defend yourself, fly a B17 (pretend it is a captured one if it means that much to you, the LW captured buckets of those). If you want to drop a lot of bombs, fly the Lancaster. If you absolutely, positively MUST fly a German bomber, use the Ju88. I don't think it is worth the amount of time needed just to have a "heavy" German bomber.
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Staga,
I don't even think it would be nice to have the Spitfire MkXIV. I do think it would be nice to have a LW heavy, which is ahead of my opinion of the Spit XIV.
They just don't "need" the heavy.
And yes I agree that the RAF planeset doesn't need the RAF aircraft I actually want, the Mosquito FB.VI. Beat ya to it. ;)
When I referenced the Me410 and Ju52 I was being generous with the inclusion of the Me410, the Fw190F-8 CAN kill tanks, but the Me410 would actually be good at it.
The Ju52 is needed for the LW fans to be able to fly nothing but LW aircraft so that they can capture bases.
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He 111 carried paratroops. It has better performance and defense than Iron Annie, and it can even be used as a level bomber! ;)
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Also He-177 and Ju-290 carried troops ;)
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The Short Stirling carried troops and acted as a glider tug. ;)
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Howabout having some of those armed troop carrying planes have the ability to carry 5 troops only?
This way one could either carry 10 troops alone and unarmed.... or two guys could go in armed and carry 5 troops each.
C-47 would not become useless :) If Ju52 comes with a mg and 10 troops no-one will use C-47 anymore.
Another option would be to allow 20 troops in unarmed C-47 while armed transport planes (whatever type) would carry 10 troops.
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Of course Ju-52 will have price-tag of 10 perkpoints :D
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Blauk, Staga,
I don't think there is a conflict between the two. There is, rather, a choice, just as there is between the Lancaster's bombload and B-17G's defensive firepower.
The Ju52 has a single light machine gun, 7.92mm, defending it but only has a top speed of 178mph.
The C-47A has no guns but reaches a speed of 229mph.
I know which one I'd take, and I suspect most people, and that would be the faster one. A single light machine gun simply doesn't change the odds enough.
I think the Ju52 would make a great armed alternative to the C-47A.
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(http://sivut.koti.soon.fi/jannousiainen/galleries/scale_models/ju_87b-2_03.jpg)
Ph34r mY Stuk4!!!
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Originally posted by Greedz:
[QB]I think it would be a very cool idea to add the Junkers Ju.87 'Stuka' Dive Bomber to the aces high arsenal.
QB]
Yes please Bring the Stuka to the game!!!
We need a D and G model. Oh what a happy day it would be if I could fly in my beutiful Stuka again!
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If the germans are expected to get ANY chance of winning in the HA, they'll be needin a heavy bomber. If the Ju-88 can get the job done, karnak, then tell me when the last time u saw one...that's just how useful it is.
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Ding,
I fly the Ju88 in the MA in preference over the B-26. :p
Edit:
And who says the Germans are supposed to win? I thought the idea was to use the tools they had.
If the He177 gets added to the CT as a free plane, you'll never see Ju88s anymore.
Who, historicly, operated the better heavy bombers and operated in force? Germany, America or Britain? In reality, the Americans and British, if the He177 is put in the CT as a freebie then it'll be the Germans.
You guys want a fantasy arena to match the LW romances where the LW held all of the cards.
That's just not right.
[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Geez I can see it now the Russian Front! 190F-8's, Ju87G-2s, 109/190 escorts against a massive wall of Russian armor and air cover or vice versa. No ships, no high alt bombers closing airfields and fuel depots with pin point accuracy. Just slug it out low level where the ground units advance over running cities and factories that only they can capture and control.
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If the Stuka DOES get modeled I think HTC should add the trademark siren sound whenever you push the airplane over into a steep dive. Maybe make it so any GVs within d3.0 can hear it. Talk about sending shivers up your back if your sitting there in a Panzer and you hear the siren of a JU87. You hold your breath and hope is isnt' dropping a bomb on YOUR head :D
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I believe the late model Ju87's had the sirens removed and siren mounts faired over.
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Karnak Germany DID have He-177.
You really think only german unperked bomber in AH should be Ju-88 from 1940 ?
Oh and B-17 is still better bomber than He-177 IMO.
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Staga,
I have absolutely no problem with an unperked He177 in the MA. I think that the He177 would make a nice addition to the MA as a freebie aircraft.
I have huge problems with an unperked He177 in the CT. Germany did not have the heavy bomber force of the USAAF or RAF. They didn't even have anything that resembled it. Adding an unperked He177 into the Combat Theatre would put Germany on even footing with the British and Americans as far as their bomber force is considered, a position that Germany did not enjoy in reality.
I also think that the Do17, Do217, He111, Ju87 and Ju188 will be good additions to the MA and CT at some point.
[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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I think I agree on the He177 being a bit unfair for the CT.
However not all Allied bombers were B26s, Lancs or B17s.
There were numerous important allied designs that saw wide use that were slower, or had less defensive guns, or smaller defensive guns, or had less bomb load, etc than the B17/26/Lanc.
So to be honest the allied bomber position in CT isnt exactly fair either.
Plus one final thing I must add about CT bombers is the "adjusted guns". I think HTC should in the future make a new buff gun model for use in the CT. This would encourage formation tactics and make lone bombers be less useful.
A new more "accurate" bomb aiming system should also be made, maybe like the WB system I hear of wher buff must hold course for X time if aim is to accurate.
I also think it would be useful to limit the outside type views in buffs so that the level autopilot engages whenever outside view is selected.
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By the way, the G model had 37mm guns under the wings, not 30mm. They were adapted from an early war Werhmacht AT gun
AFAIK two cannons in Ju87G-1 "Kanonenvogel" were converted from 3.7cm FlaK/36 AA-gun.
It was Rudel's idea to install these guns in his Stuka. Special wolfram(aka tungsten) cored ammo was used to make it effective against T-34s and KVs. Anyway I think only handful of these birds were ever used.
In the battle of Kursk Rudel flew Ju87-G1 but still most of his flight used unmodified Stukas.
[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: illo ]
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Originally posted by Karnak:
I fly the Ju88 in the MA in preference over the B-26.
--Why do you prefer the Ju-88 over the B-26? How often do u get shot down in that 88 of your's?
I thought the idea was to use the tools they had.
--One of those tools that the Germans had was called the He-177 "Greif".
If the He177 gets added to the CT as a free plane, you'll never see Ju88s anymore.
--Not if an He-177 can only carry 15 50 kg's or 2 fritz's...then many people will still take out an 88 to egg acks @ fields.
Who, historicly, operated the better heavy bombers and operated in force? Germany, America or Britain?
--A good reason why a RPS should be implemented w/ a limit on the % of planes being of a certain type.
In reality, the Americans and British, if the He177 is put in the CT as a freebie then it'll be the Germans.
--Not if the German bird can carry a limited # of eggs for ack busting. But still useful in the fact that it's got more defensive armament than the other german egger.
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Yes, He177 Greif is an excellent heavy bomber.
-Fast
-Heavily armed
-Good bombload
Also it's anti-shipping missiles/radioguided bombs could be nice add to game.
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I fly the Ju88 in the MA in preference over the B-26.
--Why do you prefer the Ju-88 over the B-26? How often do u get shot down in that 88 of your's?
I think that the Ju88 has more character than the B-26B. The main thing that I use medium bombers for is AA suppression. The B-26 can carry 20 100lb bombs. The Ju88 can carry 20 50kg bombs and 4 500kg bombs. That allows me to do the same suppression job as the B-26 and be able to smash a hanger as well.
I get shot down quite often, but in my experience no medium bomber survives an attack by a fighter in AH. The only difference is that the B-26 is more likely to take its attacker with it. Actually my record for air-to-air kills in one bomber mission was set in a Ju88. I shot down 2 N1K2-Js, 1 La-7 and 1 Fw190 of some sort. Unfortunately for me the last N1K2-J got me as well.
I thought the idea was to use the tools they had.
--One of those tools that the Germans had was called the He-177 "Greif".
Yes, the Germans had the He177, unfortunately for them. They would much rather have had the B-17 or Lancaster. The He177 suffered from massive mechanical problems that make the N1K1 look downright reliable. In AH mechanical defects are eliminated and we would get what the He177 looks like on paper, a great heavy bomber. The He177 was available in such limited numbers that the largest He177 operation consisted of a mere 35 of them.
Adding the He177 into the CT as a free aircraft would be completely distorting the significance of every German bomber.
Given that the MA is a fantasy arena I have no problem with the idea of the He177 being a freebie aircraft in the MA, in fact I think it would make a nice addition.
If the He177 gets added to the CT as a free plane, you'll never see Ju88s anymore.
--Not if an He-177 can only carry 15 50 kg's or 2 fritz's...then many people will still take out an 88 to egg acks @ fields.
That would be an example of selectively modeling its loadouts to tailor it to the CT for gameplay reasons. Don't you think that it would be better for it to have all of its loadouts and to pay a small perk price for using it in the CT?
Who, historicly, operated the better heavy bombers and operated in force? Germany, America or Britain?
--A good reason why a RPS should be implemented w/ a limit on the % of planes being of a certain type.
I don't think that you'd see a good reaction from people logging on only to find that they can't fly their P-51D, or whatever their plane of choice is.
I'm all for an RPS, but I think the best way to limit certain aircraft is with the perk system working within the RPS.
In reality, the Americans and British, if the He177 is put in the CT as a freebie then it'll be the Germans.
--Not if the German bird can carry a limited # of eggs for ack busting. But still useful in the fact that it's got more defensive armament than the other german egger.
Once again you are limiting it for gameplay reasons when it would be much simpler to charge a small perk price to fly it, but with access to its full loadout. In addition giving it a limited loadout list like that just to make it unattractive in the CT would cripple it in the MA where there is no need to put limits on it.