Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: A8TOOL on April 12, 2009, 05:12:52 AM
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Not an easy thing....but becoming necessary. Don't care anymore ...willing to try.
Very good at avoiding but have no experience in the actual act.
TIPS?
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:rofl Im the same im ok at avoiding the HO but if i ever decide to take a HO shot im generally really rubbish and im kinda glad as it means i wont do it, usually ends in death for me.
Im not sure i would dedicate any of my time to learn how to HO tho :lol
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I see a trend in all your recent BBS postings.
Seriously, maybe taking a break will help you. Smells like a beginning burnout... been there, done that.
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This reminds me of an old Warbird players' signature (i forget who it was)
"Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
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I'm painting the kids room today and may work on my hotrod ford afterwards. No cartoons for me this weekend :aok
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Not an easy thing....but becoming necessary. Don't care anymore ...willing to try.
Very good at avoiding but have no experience in the actual act.
TIPS?
hmmmm lets see, going from a "Tool" to a loser.... seems like a step up to me! Good Luck ! :D
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Tips?
Learning to HO is basically the opposite of learning pretty much anything else in the game.
All you need to do is point your guns at the other guy and shoot, regardless of which direction he's flying, and with no regard to the success of your manuever. If you care about living through it, you'll never be truly successful at the HO...
That's what makes it the opposite of pretty much every other facet of the game. Almost every other facet includes living through it to consider it successful. Imagine how easy it would be to learn to land if you considered exploding on or near the runway as equally "successful" as rolling to a controlled stop where you intended to. With learning to HO, your long-term average "success" won't be over 50-50. So, essentially, dying while attempting it is just as much a success as not dying, and in many ways perfecting the HO could be seen as a "failure".
Don't get me wrong though- I see the HO as a legitimate tactic, and I'm glad we have it, and I believe it's directly responsible for the overall "quality" of the "good" fights that we do see.
That's because it's the most basic, simplist, most "instinctive", and obvious way to fight. It's so predictable it's ridiculous. And that predictability makes it easy to defeat for anyone who deserves to consider themselves a "fighter" pilot. Getting hit by an HO is a very fair "penalty" for shabby tactics. Without that penalty as a possibility we could be much more successful with less-refined tactics. Anything other than the HO requires more advanced thought, use of space, speed, angles, plane type, control surfaces, throttle, gunnery, SA etc... Sure, getting hit by an HO while you're getting swarmed by multiples can be impossible to avoid, but in 1 v 1's it can almost always avoided with very little effort.
It's almost like flying/fighting good, is more difficult than flying /fighting poorly. Hmmm, maybe that's the way it should be?
So, you're asking for tips on how to fly/fight less skillfully? Let me see if this is an accurate analogy- A ten year old is mad that he can't compete with the high school track and field stars, and that he keeps getting bumped off balance by the two year olds crawling around on the playground. So now he's gonna pout, drop to his knees, and start crawling again? And he wants some pointers on how he can do better at something the little kids were able to figure out on their own? He thinks he'll be more successful as a "crawler" than he would be if he applied his efforts to becoming a track star?
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Not an easy thing....but becoming necessary. Don't care anymore ...willing to try.
Very good at avoiding but have no experience in the actual act.
TIPS?
Or maybe I'm reading this wrong.
You say you can avoid getting hit by it with no problem. But you think you need to learn to do it better? What would be the point? Easier gunnery?
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Look me up TOOL I got special skillz in this department. ;)
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I'm painting the kids room today and may work on my hotrod ford afterwards. No cartoons for me this weekend :aok
We all know you're sitting in your lounge chair, watching TV,and eating jelly beans. :t
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"Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
:rofl
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Back in the old days we had this thing called SA. It was the acronym for Situational Awareness.
The implementation of Situational Awareness requires the combatant to have acute knowledge of enemy status in all quadrants of his position ABOVE, BELOW, BEHIND and in FRONT.
"Some" people that believe shooting you're foe when he is pointing his guns at you is somehow cheezy or bad gameplay........to me that's just an excuse for poor Situational Awareness.
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Back in the old days we had this thing called SA. It was the acronym for Situational Awareness.
The implementation of Situational Awareness requires the combatant to have acute knowledge of enemy status in all quadrants of his position ABOVE, BELOW, BEHIND and in FRONT.
Bad SA.
(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6941/9120free20ride.jpg)
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Lol, bad SA if you are the Hawk ;)
The blackbird has achieved the ultimate in SA. Be the Blackbird!
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"Some" people that believe shooting you're foe when he is pointing his guns at you is somehow cheezy or bad gameplay.......
Cheezy? Nah, how about suicidal, unless for some strange reason the opponent has you in his sights, yet does not HO you back?
Here is why HO'ing is frowned upon: If everybody did it, all the time, 90% of fights starting out from a neutral position would result in one plane destroyed and the other plane destroyed or too badly damaged to continue.
But, Tool is right in that there are situations where it cannot be avoided. In those cases, brace yourself, shoot well, and try to avoid the collide. You do this because whether or not you survive, it needs to end badly for them as well. You need to hand out an abject lesson, as opposed to allowing their behavior to net them a free kill.
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Bad SA.
(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6941/9120free20ride.jpg)
LOL where'd you find that?
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The only problem I have atm is people who have faster planes (la7s ponies). they point their nose at you.. you roll out setup and get your nose on their six but they just jet off 2-3k.. then they turn around rinse and repeat.
I had a fight like this on my own with a guy in an la7.. he took 12 of these HO attempts with me rolling out of it.. unable to catch his plane then him coming back.. I tried everything.. I even slowed down so that hed come at my six and maybe slow so that i could hit the reveresal shot but.. he was going full throttle wepping it n just sped out of it then came back again.
eventually he ran out of fuel.
It was probably one of the most pathetic timewasting encoutners ive had.. in retrospect i shouldve just bailed and found someone willing to engage in a fun fight.
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You need to hand out an abject lesson, as opposed to allowing their behavior to net them a free kill.
The lesson learned is that they don't HO as well as the experienced stick who HO'd them better. Killing the HO'er by HOing better doesn't teach them that HOing doesn't work. It teaches them to try harder to perfect it. If it works for the experienced player, it'll work for the inexperienced player if he works hard enough at it.
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1v1 I don't really care if my opponent tries the HO. I expect it for every single player I come across, and take it into consideration. I seldom even take a slight ping from it. If I do get hit, I see it as my fault. I "knew" he would try it, and I didn't take action to insure his attempt would fail.
The fact that he tries for it just makes my presumption on his intent "right", therefore my predictions for his action was correct, and the manuever I've already envisioned and begun is very likely to succeed. I'm sure I have a better than 99% success rate against single cons who try the HO.
The HO's that annoy me are the multi v 1 scenarios. I'm already fighting 1 or 2 or 3 guys, and another one feels like his best chance foe success is to shoot for my face.
If I feel any disappointment as a result of an HO attempt, it because I've instantly given up on the idea that my opponent has the required level of self-assurance required to put up a good fight. If he thinks the 50/50 chances are "good enough", IMO he thinks he has less than a 50/50 chance if the fight gets more complex. Why would he accept 50/50 odds if he thought he could improve those odds by manuevering?
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No reason to HO, people who HO on the 1st merge have a tendancy to lose.
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The lesson learned is that they don't HO as well as the experienced stick who HO'd them better. Killing the HO'er by HOing better doesn't teach them that HOing doesn't work. It teaches them to try harder to perfect it. If it works for the experienced player, it'll work for the inexperienced player if he works hard enough at it.
There is no such thing as a HO "working" for them unless you *allow* it to work by allowing them to escape unscathed. I wasn't saying don't dodge if the possibility is open, but if you find yourself on the deck, with little or no energy for avoidance maneuvers, and oh lookey, here is yet another bandit coming right at you, it is better to shoot back than be a free kill.
IMO, all this "The HO is dead-easy to counter-stuff" comes primarily from the fact that most blatant HO'ing comes from noobs who are relatively poor shots. A good enough marksman stands some chance of hitting you on the merge really no matter what you do, short of avoiding so early and so radically that you show him some angles to grab. The reason a vet and a good marksman generally does not HO you, (and generally makes it clear on the merge he is not looking to HO you with a slight flight-path displacement), isn't because he can't kill you on the HO pass if desired. It is because he has learned that if the opponent chooses to counter by HO'ing back, his own survival chances become paltry. Better to chance the fight than the certainty of M.A.D.
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LOL where'd you find that?
Break.com
They have some funny stuff.
Just found that picture today.
Was hoping to use it on the BBs, but I didn't think the opportunity would arise this quickly!!
:aok
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Just for the fun of it, let's get back to the original question, which was, if you consider the "HO" a valid 'maneuver', then how do you perform it successfully? Forget that long range probablitity says you will only be successful 50% of the time.
OK, first rule is, if at all possible, have an aircraft that has a significantly greater weight of firepower than your opponent. The FM2 head on with a Niki or Tempest probably can't even be computed high enough to qualify as a poor probability of success. :D
Second, balancing the first rule as best as possible, have a responsive aircraft, in particular, one that lends itself to superlative nose control. The best one that comes to mind is the Spit.
Now, how do you perform the maneuver to best advantage. Fly head on towards the bad guy, just before he fires induce a little angle off so that hopefully his first burst will miss, but you'll pass very close. Then just before you pass, you snap your nose towards the bad guy then away again so as not to collide. Remember to pull the trigger as you snap towards him. You splat him right in the face.
The Spit is marvelous at this, even if it's weight of guns is a little light. The Hispano 20mm's are effective if you hit. Get good at this maneuver, and on an even basis, your success probablity will go up to about 51%. Of course, you'll take a lot of deaths getting good at it. :rofl
I'm not an advocate of just HO'ing everything in sight, but if you're out numbered in a turn fight, you often find youself face to face with a bandit re-entering the fight, and you have a good opportunity to reduce the enemy numbers by one with a quick HO. This maneuver will do it... sometimes.
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The Spit is marvelous at this, even if it's weight of guns is a little light.
Interestingly, according to the charts at DokGonzo's, 1 Hispano appears to be ~3 times as lethal as 1 .50. This is realistic, considering that WWII tests came to the same conclusion.
So 2 Hispanos=6 .50s in lethality. If you are in a SpitXVI/SpitXIV and thus have 2 .50s to go with your Hisapanos, that means the lethality is equivalent to that of a P-47 with the 8x.50 package.
I've never heard the Jug's firepower called "a little light" ;)
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No reason to HO, people who HO on the 1st merge have a tendancy to lose.
People who HO on any merge tend to lose thats why they do it :aok
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Right, just another case in point of someone doing something poorly and running home cryin' to mommah. Don't like being shot in the face, turn your back to the enemy and try to have them over shoot.
No ones fault for you loosing but yourself.
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Bad SA.
(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6941/9120free20ride.jpg)
:rofl :rofl :rofl Not a photoshopped picture either!
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Right, just another case in point of someone doing something poorly and running home cryin' to mommah. Don't like being shot in the face, turn your back to the enemy and try to have them over shoot.
No ones fault for you loosing but yourself.
Alot of good sticks are giving people their six in order to get into a good fight..........
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If you're serious try learning in an IL-2. Good 23mm gun package that is deadly and has range. The IL-2 can take damage as well and keep flying. On the other side, avoid HO'ing poor maneuvering big gun package planes who's best offense is the HO gun pass like 110 and IL-2 or anything with 30mm.
I dont like the HO gun pass and love running into a fight that we dont HO each other which is maybe +-25% of encounters. The other guy is really exposing himself with flying directly in front of your guns and not breaking till wingtip to wingtip. This shows some kinda mutual respect too minimize cheap shots. Sometimes in a fight I do take minor HO deflection shots if the other guy didn't quite bring his turn around in time and same happens to me, this isnt really a true HO nose to nose but it may feel like it until you review the tape.
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Dress like this and you're on your way:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3p8FCJi9-YY/SXIRBymu65I/AAAAAAAAACw/NBGvDSD_nDA/s400/dominatrix44.jpg)
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I'm going to preface this post with the comment that I try to avoid the HO about 95-98% or so of the time, and successfully avoid it about 80-90% of the time. And doing this, and saying it on this board, all make me feel just how above the hoi polloi I am. :D
Seriously though, since you asked, here is a way to be "better" at the HO than most who do it. Don't just go flying at the other guy with all your guns blazing. Instead, aim just above his plane and fire a quick burst, then quickly drop your nose so that you avoid his response. If you fire when he's still sufficiently far out, like 700-800 yards or so, you can often land a good burst on the guy and not have to take his fire in return.
That said, I seriously don't HO all that much at all. I will pretty much always attempt to avoid it in any kind of normal 1v1 dogfight. Pretty much the only time I'll ever HO is if I'm defending a base against a horde and a HO shot will kill a guy who has to fly all the way back from somewhere far away, when I can just up another fighter right there at that same base and keep fighting. If the base is being vulched, I'll often try to up a Spit 16 with 50% fuel or something fast that has a chance to take off quickly and get some speed quickly, and break the vulch. In a situation like that I'll HO everything I can, because if I can kill one vulcher every time I up a plane, they'll run out of vulchers because it will take them a lot longer to return than it will take me to re-up.
In a situation where you're trying to break a vulch, there's 0% chance of a real, quality dogfight anyhow, so there's no reason to stick your nose in the air and smugly declare that you just won't do it. And since I don't really care about my score, I'm not afraid to up five or ten planes in a row sometimes to try to break a vulch. That can be really fun.
So anyhow, it's pretty lame to try to HO people in a good dogfight, but that doesn't mean that there are no possible situations in this game where a HO shot can't be justified. And, contrary to the opinions of many expressed in this thread, it is actually possible to be better at HOing your opponent, and coming out unscathed a clear majority of the time while killing the other guy.
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I'm going to preface this post with the comment that I try to avoid the HO about 95-98% or so of the time, and successfully avoid it about 80-90% of the time. And doing this, and saying it on this board, all make me feel just how above the hoi polloi I am. :D
Seriously though, since you asked, here is a way to be "better" at the HO than most who do it. Don't just go flying at the other guy with all your guns blazing. Instead, aim just above his plane and fire a quick burst, then quickly drop your nose so that you avoid his response. If you fire when he's still sufficiently far out, like 700-800 yards or so, you can often land a good burst on the guy and not have to take his fire in return.
That said, I seriously don't HO all that much at all. I will pretty much always attempt to avoid it in any kind of normal 1v1 dogfight. Pretty much the only time I'll ever HO is if I'm defending a base against a horde and a HO shot will kill a guy who has to fly all the way back from somewhere far away, when I can just up another fighter right there at that same base and keep fighting. If the base is being vulched, I'll often try to up a Spit 16 with 50% fuel or something fast that has a chance to take off quickly and get some speed quickly, and break the vulch. In a situation like that I'll HO everything I can, because if I can kill one vulcher every time I up a plane, they'll run out of vulchers because it will take them a lot longer to return than it will take me to re-up.
In a situation where you're trying to break a vulch, there's 0% chance of a real, quality dogfight anyhow, so there's no reason to stick your nose in the air and smugly declare that you just won't do it. And since I don't really care about my score, I'm not afraid to up five or ten planes in a row sometimes to try to break a vulch. That can be really fun.
So anyhow, it's pretty lame to try to HO people in a good dogfight, but that doesn't mean that there are no possible situations in this game where a HO shot can't be justified. And, contrary to the opinions of many expressed in this thread, it is actually possible to be better at HOing your opponent, and coming out unscathed a clear majority of the time while killing the other guy.
To add one more situation is in trying to take a base and there is a enemy plane coming in to shoot troops I'll shoot them in the face but most of the time it's more of a high deflection shot because I have altitude advantage.
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To add one more situation is in trying to take a base and there is a enemy plane coming in to shoot troops I'll shoot them in the face
I do that. Heck, I did it recently.
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People who HO on any merge tend to lose thats why they do it :aok
:rofl
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If you're serious try learning in an IL-2. Good 23mm gun package that is deadly and has range. The IL-2 can take damage as well and keep flying. On the other side, avoid HO'ing poor maneuvering big gun package planes who's best offense is the HO gun pass like 110 and IL-2 or anything with 30mm.
I dont like the HO gun pass and love running into a fight that we dont HO each other which is maybe +-25% of encounters. The other guy is really exposing himself with flying directly in front of your guns and not breaking till wingtip to wingtip. This shows some kinda mutual respect too minimize cheap shots. Sometimes in a fight I do take minor HO deflection shots if the other guy didn't quite bring his turn around in time and same happens to me, this isnt really a true HO nose to nose but it may feel like it until you review the tape.
ahh thats why you hoed me last night? hehe I got your 6 strong and the view aint bad from here. :D
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Not an easy thing....but becoming necessary. Don't care anymore ...willing to try.
Very good at avoiding but have no experience in the actual act.
TIPS?
1HungLo posted a film awhile back showing how to use Head On attacks. No joke, totally serious. Was supposed to make you a HO marksman afterwards.
ack-ack
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Seems like a waste of ammo and I don't like the 50/50 average.
Avoiding the HO and then trying to find a way to use heavy rudder to get the shot might work but I think whats really needed is TrackIR or Free Track to compete with the AH gamers of today.
Products like these will allow players to get that gun sight moving side to side from window to window. They even allow you to look up and over the nose of your aircraft to take those impossible blind shots. No more guessing and where ever your gun sight goes your barrels will follow.
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:huh
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Products like these will allow players to get that gun sight moving side to side from window to window. They even allow you to look up and over the nose of your aircraft to take those impossible blind shots. No more guessing and where ever your gun sight goes your barrels will follow.
I always thought the gunsights were bolted onto the instrument panel and that the guns were bolted into position in the gun bays?
How is Track IR going to move the gunsight (and the guns) outside the constraints of their mounts? These things are not flexible. If stretching your neck around and moving the sight picture within your forward view is what you are talking about then no big deal....otherwise wtf?
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Avoiding the HO and then trying to find a way to use heavy rudder to get the shot might work but I think whats really needed is TrackIR or Free Track to compete with the AH gamers of today.
Products like these will allow players to get that gun sight moving side to side from window to window. They even allow you to look up and over the nose of your aircraft to take those impossible blind shots.
That's nonsense.
TIR doesn't allow you to "move the gunsight" from window to window. You can move the dot / crosshair over the gunsight's glass, but that's about it. You still are restricted by the same limitations as any non-TIR user.
Example: 109G. I move and turn my head to the left side. See the crosshairs disappear.
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3212/67466608.jpg)
(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3373/86033805.jpg)
(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8205/79233431.jpg)
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The "impossible" blind shots are best taken by using an alternate "look forward" head position with the head raised all the way up and the cursor marking the center of the screen....but really, even in the planes that have the best "over the nose" view this only does you a limited amount of good on one specific kind of shot. No TrackIR necessary. I can see why TrackIR would make dealing a crossing shot easier, especially when it comes to dealing with all the ^&#&^^& frames in the way of your vision.
Seems like a waste of ammo and I don't like the 50/50 average.
Avoiding the HO and then trying to find a way to use heavy rudder to get the shot might work but I think whats really needed is TrackIR or Free Track to compete with the AH gamers of today.
Products like these will allow players to get that gun sight moving side to side from window to window. They even allow you to look up and over the nose of your aircraft to take those impossible blind shots. No more guessing and where ever your gun sight goes your barrels will follow.
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Tool, I don't use a TrackIR, though I'd like to get it someday, but I have a button on my CH throttle that I push when I want to see over the nose. To program this, you need to program the Look Forward command.
Once this button was programmed to Look Forward, hold the button down, and raise your head all the way, and move it all the way forward, and hit F10 to lock in this head position. Now, whenever I need to look over the cowling, I push this button, and my head goes up and forward for a better view, and when I let go of the button my head returns to its natural position in the cockpit.
I seriously doubt that a user of TrackIR would be able to get their view over the cowling to be any better than this, since they too are limited to the amount of head freedom that we are allowed using the head movement keys.
Thing is, when I take off in a fighter, I open up my E6B and then close the map with a key on my throttle (so I can look at the E6B while flying without having to use my mouse again), and then I'll set the mouse pointer tip right on the center of my gunsight. With the mouse pointer thus set, if I use my "look over the cowling" button, and the gunsight graphic goes off screen because my head's too high, it's OK because my mouse pointer is still pointing where the gunsight is.
Sure, it's a little gamey, but it doesn't bother me, because without trackIR we're so limited with respect to our views and such that we can achieve during combat in this game that it's just one little advantage we claw back out of a lot of disadvantage.
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its worth considering practice Ho`s, do this while walking down the pavement (sidewalk) on the way to school, kindi or candy store.its good to pick the right target, pick out your target and run straight at them shouting abuse, if you chicken out and dodge em rather than just bundle straight in to them you will never be an ace HO`er..if you aim your sights too high initially you could come off worse.(never try it with the local bully until at least the second pass).
once mastery of the pavement move on to when your on your bike or skateboard.practice on parked vehicles, very similar to gv`s, then progress to the highway.If you are successful in this endeavour you can "borrow" your folks car and try it with the big Riggs on the motorways(freeways). you could be an ace HO`er...all it takes is practice
Have fun out there
<S> Jimmy
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if we had no range icons - HO would be much less of a problem. Gunnery will be harder and targets will be harder to stop, but rewarding for them who wants more realistm and fun.
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Seems like a waste of ammo and I don't like the 50/50 average.
Avoiding the HO and then trying to find a way to use heavy rudder to get the shot might work but I think whats really needed is TrackIR or Free Track to compete with the AH gamers of today.
Products like these will allow players to get that gun sight moving side to side from window to window. They even allow you to look up and over the nose of your aircraft to take those impossible blind shots. No more guessing and where ever your gun sight goes your barrels will follow.
Just a guess, but this is T00L's latest conspiracy theory, since this is his second thread with this theory.
Apparently, if you have TrackIR, you look to the left and your guns shoot to the left.
I'm still waiting to see the films he's mentioned.
:rofl
wrongway