Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Swoop on April 16, 2009, 04:41:23 AM
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Not Ready to Play Nice
April 15th, 2009 · Navy, geopol
The Somali pirates - who apparently are better at seizing ships than they are at driving them - are not intimidated by the president’s promise to suppress them:
Somali pirates fired grenades and automatic weapons at an American freighter loaded with food aid but the ship managed to escape the attack and was heading Wednesday to Kenya under U.S. Navy guard, officials said.
Despite President Barack Obama’s vow to halt their banditry and the deaths of five pirates in recent French and U.S. hostage rescue missions, brigands seized four vessels and more than 75 hostages off the Horn of Africa since Sunday’s dramatic rescue of an American freighter captain.
The Liberty Sun’s American crew was not injured in the latest attack but the vessel sustained some damage, owner Liberty Maritime Corp. said…
“We are under attack by pirates, we are being hit by rockets. Also bullets,” crewman Thomas Urbik, 26, wrote his mother in an e-mail Tuesday. “We are barricaded in the engine room and so far no one is hurt. (A) rocket penetrated the bulkhead but the hole is small. Small fire, too, but put out…”
The USS Bainbridge responded to the Liberty Sun’s call for help but the pirates had left by the time it arrived five hours later, Navy Capt. Jack Hanzlik said.
I read somewhere in the last week - I disremember where - that while those who use the sea in international commerce believe they ought to have the liberty of the sea, the pirates believe (with at least equal fervency) that they have the right to disrupt that commerce for their own gain, their “country” being bereft of either much in the way material resources or social capital, at least as it is elsewhere reckoned. Not to mention the fact that all the taxi cab driver positions in Sandy Eggo are pretty much filled, capacity being what it is, what with Our Struggling Economy.
“Our latest hijackings are meant to show that no one can deter us from protecting our waters from the enemy because we believe in dying for our land,” Omar Dahir Idle told The Associated Press by telephone from the Somali port of Harardhere.
Which, we can play it that way too.
Although there’s talk of tipping it the 19th century and laying waste to pirate havens ashore, I don’t believe it will come to very much. Offshore bombardments with 5″ guns are all very well and good (until the damn things jam), but there’s scarcely anything ashore worth hurling a TLAM at and hosing them down with helicopter gunships sends the wrong signals pretty much everywhere. Even if we could stand the heat for what would have to be rather indiscriminate slaughter of desperately poor people of color, the pirates being all mixed in with the locals, which I don’t believe we can.
And the appetite for smoking out the rat’s nest with boots on deck cannot be very great these days. Going in heavy means replaying the Mog back in ‘93, and sending small teams of operators in unsupported is probably out of the question as well - our guys don’t blend.
Oh, a punitive raid by a Marine Expeditionary Unit is probably within the limits of a do-able do, but nothing long-term can be much effected by such a limited campaign, and anyway we seemingly cannot resist the temptation of trying to fix whatever we leave broken in our wake, which is a pretty tall order in Somalia.
So, despite the fact that it’s much better to go after hornet nests than individual hornets, this will probably have to be done “from the sea,” a thing for which our Navy - God bless it, and keep it whole - is woefully under-equipped, our ships being so few and the ocean so very vast. The international merchant marine force is probably unwilling to defend itself actively, liability being such a great concern should something go awry, not to mention the reticence of foreign ports to allow permanently armed merchant ships come and go as they please.
I’ve said it before, and believe it to be true: There’s a private sector answer, to what is essentially a private sector concern. Letters of Marque, issued to private security detachments embarking from mother ships at either end of the perilous passage. Shipping companies would have to pay, but it would probably be less than they pay to Lloyd’s of London for insurance, and a great deal less than what they’d pay in ransom money should their ships be siezed. Helicopters - or even small UAVs - carrying FLIRs could be used to extend the ship’s sensor range for positive ID of RPG- and AK-carrying “fishermen” in skiffs, while a deployable, cuppola clad Ma Deuce or two ought to be dissuasive to anyone who gets inside the helo/UAV arc. Only pirates are killed rather than mouse poor civvies ashore, and merchant mariners would have to “pay to play.”
We’d still have to sort out liability for the privateers, but the issuance by Congress of Letters of Marque is constitutionally protected, and not denied the US by the Declaration of Paris, since we are not signatories.
I’m sensing a business opportunity here, is all.
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And if anyone fancies employing a foreign national who can shoot and has spent time in Somalia, lemme know, I'm available.
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Sounds like the most viable solution. :aok
Why do I hear "Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner" playing in my head? :D
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Even if we could stand the heat for what would have to be rather indiscriminate slaughter of desperately poor people of color, the pirates being all mixed in with the locals, which I don’t believe we can.
Innocent folks point out the criminals. If they know who they are and don't point them out then they are assisting. Making them criminals too.
. . . not to mention the reticence of foreign ports to allow permanently armed merchant ships come and go as they please.
Just don't take them food.
I look at it this way. Why put the safety of the merchants second to that of folks living with criminals. Reports say that many samalis consider the pirates to be heroes. Let them see the light.
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I look at it this way. Why put the safety of the merchants second to that of folks living with criminals. Reports say that many samalis consider the pirates to be heroes. Let them see the light.
This ought to be bright enough for them. One thing's for sure, they'll never do it again.
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/nukes.jpg)
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Innocent folks point out the criminals. If they know who they are and don't point them out then they are assisting. Making them criminals too.
Public opinion may possibly not agree with you.
Just don't take them food.
I don't think you understand. What he's saying is ports in general may not be happy about armed merchant ships docking, nothing whatsoever to do with taking food to Somalia.
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I believe allowing them all to starve would do wonders for our own economy but it would not make us good stewards. There isnt anything wrong with a nice vulcan mounted on the fore deck for protection. :aok
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This ought to be bright enough for them. One thing's for sure, they'll never do it again.
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/nukes.jpg)
:huh They tried boarding another U.S. ship a couple of days ago. You think the "Pirates" are gonna stop reluctantly?
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Stop trying to capture and arrest the pirates, and instead move to sink their ships with gunfire. Leave survivors to drown.
The pirates' likely retaliation will lead to dicey times for the merchant marine for a short while, but it appears that can of worms has already been opened.
At least on the high seas you have an enemy you can vigorously pursue without need for restrictive ROEs to minimize collateral damage. If they are pirates, destroy them. Very few civilians will complain.
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I think we should put together a freighter safari. Put a bunch of us rednecks on it and go huntin'. Limit 5 per person. So bring your children.
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Am I the only one who says shoot first, ask questions later in Africa?
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Letters of marque, now that was a good point :aok
Just like Sid Meyer's Pirates"
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The thing I don't understand is how these guys get aboard the ships. A container ship underway is going 15 knots or so, and has 30-50 feet of freeboard above the waterline?
So, how in holy heck do they actually get aboard the vessel? Does anyone have any gouge on the techniques they use?
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...
I’ve said it before, and believe it to be true: There’s a private sector answer, to what is essentially a private sector concern. Letters of Marque, issued to private security detachments embarking from mother ships at either end of the perilous passage. ...
yey! Piraveets! :lol
There is another solution: Ninjas!
If they don't stop the pirates, at least we settle the pirate vs. ninja debate once and for all.
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The thing I don't understand is how these guys get aboard the ships. A container ship underway is going 15 knots or so, and has 30-50 feet of freeboard above the waterline?
So, how in holy heck do they actually get aboard the vessel? Does anyone have any gouge on the techniques they use?
Damn good question Stoney. I've wondered te same thing for quite some time.
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The thing I don't understand is how these guys get aboard the ships. A container ship underway is going 15 knots or so, and has 30-50 feet of freeboard above the waterline?
So, how in holy heck do they actually get aboard the vessel? Does anyone have any gouge on the techniques they use?
I read somewhere that they are very well equiped. I think I remember something about grappling hooks launchers or something along this lines. But, I can't find anything to back that up.
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They would be extremely vulnerable while boarding.Which is why I think that just "small arms" would do quite a bit. Gimme a letter of Marque and an Uzi plz :devil
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This is making me think of the pirate attack scene from the life aquatic.
"they took the bond-stooge!"
"you forgot your damn dog!"
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I read somewhere that they are very well equiped. I think I remember something about grappling hooks launchers or something along this lines. But, I can't find anything to back that up.
Well, I've read the recent news on how crews barricade themselves in the engine room. So heres my problem with the pirates boarding a ship. If it were me as El Capitan I'd wait I'd wait until they pull up along sides, fire their lil grappling hooks and depending on what side of the ship they are on I'd simply order the helmsman to put her "hard over" in that direction.
Simple really 1 lil skiff with a handful of pirates Vs. a cargo ship weighing ....umm ALOT = no more pirates :t
I really dont understand WHY this isnt done already. I know it takes a while to turn those big arsed ships but still, you should be able to take them out. Especially if the ship is equipped with bow thrusters. I dont know if all of them are but IIRC I saw a documentary of Discovery awhile back on building the latest gen of cargo container ships and they are soo big they pretty much have to have bow thrusters so they can turn alot sharper and quicker.
Also whats the top speed of these cargo ships? They may not be able to outrun a skiff but its not like the pirates are using a high performance cigar boat, just a skiff with 1 outboard is all I've seen. So my thought is even if they cant outrun the skiffs a large cargo ship moving at flank speed would create one hell of a wake! I personally wouldn't want to try and board it while my lil skiff is flopping all around and banging into the side, add to that the idear of turning into the skiff again = squishy pirates :rofl
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I read somewhere that they are very well equiped. I think I remember something about grappling hooks launchers or something along this lines. But, I can't find anything to back that up.
Heh, they should electrically isolate the rails around the ship and hook it up to the ships generator, with a "kill" switch of course. ;)
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Many of them freighters have just one screw AFAIK. So no hard maneuvers.
But plonking the guys down as they board? Oh yeah, gimme just a .22. Seriously, they are not many and the ship offers one heck of a defence zone.
As someone pointed out before as well, they could even be flushed off.
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Many of them freighters have just one screw AFAIK. So no hard maneuvers.
But plonking the guys down as they board? Oh yeah, gimme just a .22. Seriously, they are not many and the ship offers one heck of a defence zone.
As someone pointed out before as well, they could even be flushed off.
Don't forget, these guys are armed with rifles, machine guns, and rocket propelled grenades. None of those weapons pose a serious threat to the ship itself, but certainly do to crewman exposed along the rail.
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Am I the only one who says shoot first, ask questions later in Africa?
Nope, dont care about the asking questions part,, just shoot. Nobody will know they are missing.
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Somalia isn't a country it's a lawless wasteland; and the blame resides solely with the people who live there.
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Somalia isn't a country it's a lawless wasteland; and the blame resides solely with the people who live there.
Well I know Etheopia backed a lot of movements that overthrew the government so no, blame isn't entirely on your average Somali.
How do you propose to dis-arm and unite all the different factions into a working government? Remember we already failed at it in the 90s and I'm sure we didn't leave things any better than we found them.
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How do you propose to dis-arm and unite all the different factions into a working government?
Why should that even be a goal? They have to figure it out themselves or die out for all I care. In my opinion we only need to keep their barbarism from bothering civilized people.
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Why should that even be a goal? They have to figure it out themselves or die out for all I care. In my opinion we only need to keep their barbarism from bothering civilized people.
And I'm sure glad you aren't in charge of anything. Jeez.
So they are all barbarians? Where'd you learn about this?
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And I'm sure glad you aren't in charge of anything. Jeez.
You and a lot of people I'm sure. :D
So they are all barbarians?
Yeah, pretty much. After the British, and thus the last shred of civility, left Somalia in 1960 the country has been in a state of civil war; embroiled in clan feuds and tribal wars; complete anarchy for the last 20 years or so.
Downtown Mogadishu when the euros governed the place:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d7/Mogadishu1936.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Mogadiscio39bancaitalia.png)
Looks right like paradise don't it.
Downtown Mogadishu today when the monkeys run the country:
(http://twoandtwomakesfive.blogs.com/two_and_two_makes_five/images/2007/03/31/mogadishu_soccer.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2390/2470338881_a23354ac51.jpg)
(http://www.oxfam.org.uk/oxfam_in_action/emergencies/images/somalia_photostory/4.jpg)
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It is sad but true that many African countries are no bit better off that 50-100 years ago. Sorry, it's just like that.
However the reasons are more open to debates....
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The problems are obvious just reading this thread. Pirating will go on and so will terrorism as long as there are a few bleeding hearts around.
I feel we should just leave them to their own demise. I imagine most folks would rather help others in their own country before sending anything overseas.
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It is sad but true that many African countries are no bit better off that 50-100 years ago.
No bit better? Most of them are far, far worse off now than 50-100 years ago. And it really isn't anyone's fault but their own. As long as they insist on living by their stone age tribal cultures Africa will continue to be the "dark continent", though in this context "dark" doesn't mean unexplored and mysterious, but grim, dismal and sinister.
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You and a lot of people I'm sure. :D
Yeah, pretty much. After the British, and thus the last shred of civility, left Somalia in 1960 the country has been in a state of civil war; embroiled in clan feuds and tribal wars; complete anarchy for the last 20 years or so.
Downtown Mogadishu when the euros governed the place:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d7/Mogadishu1936.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Mogadiscio39bancaitalia.png)
Dang, the after pictures look like Detroit.
Looks right like paradise don't it.
Downtown Mogadishu today when the monkeys run the country:
(http://twoandtwomakesfive.blogs.com/two_and_two_makes_five/images/2007/03/31/mogadishu_soccer.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2390/2470338881_a23354ac51.jpg)
(http://www.oxfam.org.uk/oxfam_in_action/emergencies/images/somalia_photostory/4.jpg)
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The problems are obvious just reading this thread. Pirating will go on and so will terrorism as long as there are a few bleeding hearts around.
I feel we should just leave them to their own demise. I imagine most folks would rather help others in their own country before sending anything overseas.
:cry Oh crap, I just noticed my heart is bleeding everywhere. :rolleyes:
Liberals cause and allow terrorism right Shuff? I'm half our problems weren't caused 30+ years ago (more really) with hawkish interests screwing other countries over for our benefit? :eek:
But I will agree that many a problem here at home need work before we get involved in trying to "fix" more countries overseas. We can thank the last 8 years for that.
Whoops, breaking the rules now. Good bait you laid there.
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Aaarh. Read our history books and use those tactics to stop this. The world had a 200 year lull stopping pirrrrrates with those wise actions.