Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Clone155 on April 17, 2009, 04:56:52 PM
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Hello all, lets begin.
I have a curious question...
Lets say a spitfire MK16 met a spitfire MK14 at an altitude of about 5K, there energy is of normal cruising speed for both planes, and the pilots are both clones of the best player out there. Who would win?
I personally think the spitfire MK16 would win just because I have started this game always believing that the "SPIXTEEN IS UB3R" just from hearing it from others and such. Any thoughts?
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Spitfire Mk XVI would have the advantage. Move the duel to 25,000ft and the Spitfire Mk XIV has the advantage.
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If the XIV was not in the same family as some of the friendliest-handling aircraft in the game, its handling quirks would not get the air-time they do and it would be considered a stone-cold killer.
It is possible for the SpitXIV to win a "duel", but yes, the SpitXVI is substantially the better close-in dogfighter at low alts. As it is compared to a P-51, Fw-190 D9., Bf-109K4, Typhoon, etc. However, the SpitXIV, like those other planes, doesn't really HAVE to engage the SpitXVI if it keeps its speed and SA up. The SpitXVI out-runs or keeps pace with quite a few planes it grossly-out turns, out-climsbs, and out-accelerates, this is true, however I daresay this would be even more true of the XIV.
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Going to disagree -
@5k
The XIV is a good 15mph or so faster than the XVI without WEP and about 20mph faster with WEP.
Climb rates are about the same with WEP, XIV has a slight advantage without WEP.
So assuming the cloned pilot flies the XIV to it's strengths (doesn't get into a knife fight) he can choose when to engage and dis-engage, the XVI could end up just chasing him around.
However, give the XVI 25lbs boost I would give the edge to the XVI, but then to be fair you would have to boost the XIV to 21lbs and then the advantage swings back in favour of it.
Resonally I think the XVI has to wait on the XIV making a mistake, however with cloned pilots I'd bet on a draw.
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I fly the spit 14 all the time and I never had trouble killing spitfire 16s. Just don't turn in lever with them. Spit 14 has much more power and if used correctly spit 16 will not stand a chance.
But with a cloned pilot kev is right:
however with cloned pilots I'd bet on a draw.
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If the XIV was not in the same family as some of the friendliest-handling aircraft in the game, its handling quirks would not get the air-time they do and it would be considered a stone-cold killer.
False. The Spit XIV is much less pleasant to use that any other fighter in the game. It is the only one I know of that actively fights me while I use it.
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False. The Spit XIV is much less pleasant to use that any other fighter in the game. It is the only one I know of that actively fights me while I use it.
Try a Ta-152
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Try a Ta-152
The Ta-152 is docile compared to the Spitfire MkXIV, to be quite honest.
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False. The Spit XIV is much less pleasant to use that any other fighter in the game. It is the only one I know of that actively fights me while I use it.
You have got to be kidding me.
14 is as good as it gets
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Karnak:
It is too much plane to be unperked. The SpitXIV is in a bad place...too superior to too much to be unperked, not as good as the other perk planes.
Why don't you work on having the handling looked at? That seems a more logical avenue.
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I did, nothing happened. The handling issues are not the kinds of things that you can find in graphs and charts.
As to the Ta152, it is vastly more benign than the Spitfire Mk XIV in terms of handling.
There is no justification for the Spitfire Mk XIV being perked while the Bf109K-4 is not. Almost everything you can say about one, you can say about the other.
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I did, nothing happened. The handling issues are not the kinds of things that you can find in graphs and charts.
As to the Ta152, it is vastly more benign than the Spitfire Mk XIV in terms of handling.
There is no justification for the Spitfire Mk XIV being perked while the Bf109K-4 is not. Almost everything you can say about one, you can say about the other.
Well...I'm sorry. I got 10mph too slow A-5 issues over my way...
Luck being what it is, it would be unperked and THEN have its handling looked at.
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I have a hunch the player would have to use the 14's climb as an advantage perhaps, but then again, I don't know how it matches up to the 16.
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spitfire 14 deserves to be perked.
It has a very good combination of a powerful engine, climb rate, maneuverability, and guns.
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I have a hunch the player would have to use the 14's climb as an advantage perhaps, but then again, I don't know how it matches up to the 16.
it's better than 16's.
I outclimbed a ton of spit 16 on my 14
It's wings are not clipped, and it has a more powerful engine.
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it's better than 16's.
I outclimbed a ton of spit 16 on my 14
It's wings are not clipped, and it has a more powerful engine.
I just remember an old squaddie calling it his "Perked K4" and I used it just like a 109K4. Climbed pretty good, but I didn't know how it matched to the 16
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post deleted
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XVI will win the bout hands down.
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it's better than 16's.
I outclimbed a ton of spit 16 on my 14
It's wings are not clipped, and it has a more powerful engine.
Some alts in the 12-22k ish range the 16 will out climb the 14. (17-22k ish w/o wep, 13-19k with)
The 14 is faster at all alts.
The 16 has a much better roll rate.
The 16 turns better.
Acceleration is basicaly equal.
Tough matchup. In a knife fight at most alts the 16k has the advantage.
25-30k ish the 14 should easily win as it could dictate the fight more readily.
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throw in a clipped XII, now you're talking !
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Taking some info from Spatula's AHII Aircraft Performance charts...here's some info for the Spit 16 vs. Spit 14.
Spit 16 speed @ sea-level = 316 mil/ 342 wep
Spit 14 speed @ sea-level = 334 mil/ 361 wep
Spit 16 speed @ 5k =336 mil/ 362 wep
Spit 14 speed @ 5k = 358 mil/ 386 wep
Spit 16 speed @ 10k = 358 mil/ 385 wep
Spit 14 speed @ 10k = 385 mil/ 410 wep
Speeds increase and decrease with Alt. Point being the Spit 14 is superior to the 16 at all alts as far as speed goes.
The Spit 16 has better acceleration through 5k and the 14 begins to accelerate better around 10k and up.
Climb rates:
At sea level the Spit 14 and 16 climb at the same rate with full military power. 3,684 ft/min The 16 holds this CR up to 11k. The 14's CR increases with Alt from 3,684 ft/min at sea-level steadily increasing to 3,845 ft/min by 11k. Climb rates for both A/C start to drop off from there. Where the Spit 16's CR actually increases and surpasses the 14's substantially from 16k to 24k whereas the 16 will out-climb the 14. Below 14k, with wep, the 14 has wicked CR from 4,920 ft/min at sea-level, 5,025 ft/min at 5k and 5,70 ft/min at 8k dropping off from there.
So, from this info, it can be determined that the Spit 14 is far superior to the Spit 16 in both speed and climb rate Superior climb rates up to 14k and then climb rate 21k to 30k. Between 14k and 21k, the 16 is better. The 14's speed however is superior through all alt's.
The Spit 16 on the other hand has better turn rate, sustained turn rate and tighter turn radius over all than the 14.
Clearly, the 16 is a formidable opponent for the 14 in a mid/low alt turn fight. The 14 has better flat out speed,climb and acceleration and should take the fight vertical and high. BnZ would be the way to go with a 14 vs 16. The 16 should keep it TnB style. Hope this may clear up the Spit 14 vs 16 questions. Please feel free to add any further inf if you have it.
SALUTE A8Chewey
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Understand that by the time they got to the Spit 14 there was serious consideration in naming it something else as it was really a different bird then the Merlin Spits.
A Spit XIV flown to it's strengths isn't going to lose to a 16 because it can control the fight. It would be a bit like a -4 Hog fighting a 1A Hog.
The problem is the average joe MA driver will try and fly the 14 like a 9 or a 5 and lose because they negate it's strengths.
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throw in a clipped XII, now you're talking !
Amen!
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There is no justification for the Spitfire Mk XIV being perked while the Bf109K-4 is not. Almost everything you can say about one, you can say about the other.
Yes, there is. The IVX climbs better, turns better, and has a great gun package. The K4 has a speed advantage. IMO the only thing that keeps the K4 unperked is the 30mm. If that gun was replaced with two Hispano MkIIs then in all fairness it would be perked, but it only has one very inaccurate Mk108.
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Yes, there is. The IVX climbs better, turns better, and has a great gun package. The K4 has a speed advantage. IMO the only thing that keeps the K4 unperked is the 30mm. If that gun was replaced with two Hispano MkIIs then in all fairness it would be perked, but it only has one very inaccurate Mk108.
Yep, and don't forget the K-4 elevator going in a dive, making following a P-51 etc an iffy proposition.
SpitXIV has some handling wonkieness I can't see any reason for, that needs to be fixed, rather than unperking, IMHO.
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All boils down to the pilot. They are a close match.
I recently tried the XIV, could it be that HTC has recently fixed it a little? I managed to get a Spit into a turnfight to the right, and I easily got a kill.
In a merge the XIV would have the alt advantage, the energy is more, the turn is similar (better to the right) and the gun pack is the same, it's just the roll rate that is clearly in the 16's favour.
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As a Spit dweeb I've been on both sides of this fight.
If the XIV gets into a close turning contest with the XVI the XVI will win but if, as you stated, they meet at each's normal speed and the XIV doesn't get into an extended turn fight the XIV can dictate the fight and he who controls the fight has the advantage.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzae_SqbmDE > dual with spits.
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Who is the XIV?
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Who is the XIV?
The one up on the perch of course! :D
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hehe :devil
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There is no justification for the Spitfire Mk XIV being perked while the Bf109K-4 is not. Almost everything you can say about one, you can say about the other.
Making the argument that the 14 should be unperked by citing the K4 is a losing battle.
Ignoring the rest, a single category alone separates usability; armament. Hizzokkas and Browning Turbolasers are both infinitely easier to deploy than a large, heavy potato that an MLB catcher could snag with a mitt.
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Making the argument that the 14 should be unperked by citing the K4 is a losing battle.
Ignoring the rest, a single category alone separates usability; armament. Hizzokkas and Browning Turbolasers are both infinitely easier to deploy than a large, heavy potato that an MLB catcher could snag with a mitt.
Not when your aircraft basically refuses to stay pointing where you want it too and you are fighting your own aircraft as much as the enemy's.
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I've been flying the XIV a bit this month because of all the threads about it. I really don't understand what the handling issues are that some people are complaining about. Other than having to deal with the engine torque going the "Proper British" direction, everything else is just fine. The only other thing I can think of, is it "seems" to need more frequent trim adjustments than other Spit's but I'm not a Spitfire expert either.
All in all I'd agree that the Ta 152 is much more difficult to get maximum performance out of, than the Spit 14. And with 15 kills to 1 death this month, I can see why it's perked. Chasing down P-51's, La-7's, and Bf 109K's is a pretty strong reason for it to be at least slightly perked.
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Not when your aircraft basically refuses to stay pointing where you want it too and you are fighting your own aircraft as much as the enemy's.
Sorry - we're talking about the K4 then?
Not exactly a model for gun platform stability.
The only difference between the 14 and the K4, in terms of engine-related instability, is the direction of the torque.
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Sorry - we're talking about the K4 then?
Not exactly a model for gun platform stability.
The only difference between the 14 and the K4, in terms of engine-related instability, is the direction of the torque.
In my experience, the K-4 flys like it is on rails compared to the Mk XIV.
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In my experience, the K-4 flys like it is on rails compared to the Mk XIV.
+1
The K-4 is a way better gun platform. Actually most planes are, when compared to the Spit XiV. Unless your're bouncing cons in a straight line, the XIV tends to wobble all around. It needs some (http://very) sensitive hands at the stick ;)
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Well then I must have the softest hands in the business because I dont find the 14 to be a troublesome platform at all.
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If we think of ourselves as real pilots in a real war, where concern #1 for the pilot is to not die, and attrition of enemy pilots is a factor, then kill/loss ratios become paramount and a the single greatest factor in having a positive kill/loss ratio is the ability to engage when you wish and disengage when you don't, IOW, speed. By that standard, the SpitXIV would be clearly superior to the SpitXVI.
However, we are not real pilots in a real war with real objectives, we are playing a game for fun. Attrition is meaningless in the MA, K/D ratio is only one of several factors a fighter score is based on, and flying in such a way as to possibly a get a kill every once in awhile while insuring RTB is no one's, or at least very few people's idea of fun.
So, while the SpitXIV obviously has the potential to maintain a higher k/d than the SpitXVI because of its speed, the SpitXVI pilot, blessed with superior turn, superior roll, and superior handling, clearly has the potential to kill more often (higher k/t), more times per sortie (higher k/s), probably hit what he aims at more often (higher %), and will do so with more ease (higher "fun" factor).
So, if we reject the fallacy of judging the airplanes as if we were flying a hit-in-run style in a real war with kill/loss ratio as the primary goal and attrition as a factor, it becomes far less clear which is the superior MA airplane.