Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Ratpack1 on April 23, 2009, 11:26:01 AM
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As my love for the 38 grows ever deeper. I wanted to see what some of the more seasoned 38'ers have there convergence set at. I've done a little reading and wanted to poll the audience. Hints, tips, suggestion anyone?
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I have my MG set at 600 and my cannon at 650, but most have the convergence set way in.
The horizontal spread is never going to be wider than the nose, it is vertical drop that you are trying to overcome. With my convergence set way out, it allows me to rate my nose a little bit less to get a gun solution which equates to less G and more E overall.
If you're serious about learning the 38, I would be willing to work with you. However, my time is severely limited lately with work, wife, and 2 sick elderly parents that require more and more time of me. If we book a time in advance, I will be there.
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Im not "Seasoned" but mine are at 400 all of the guns.
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Right now I have it set at 600 for both. I just don't seem to get the same killing power that others seem to in it. Obviously that could be a ton of reasons. Hoping convergence might be one of them. I will try moving it in some, maybe staggering it a bit.
Thanks, and please continue to post fellas, I am open to suggestion
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Honestly, there is no real reason or need to change the convergence on the P-38 guns as they are all center lined. Whatever the default convergence setting is, that's what I had my convergence set at. It's basically a personal preference sort of thing in regards to the P-38.
ack-ack
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I'm not really a full on Delirium protege so to speak, but as an avid fanboi/38 wannabe I also have my mg's at 600 and cannons at 650. :)
You'll probably find that convergence has little to do with it though. If done with consistency 10-15 minutes offline shooting on the practice drones from various angles before entering the MA will give you good improvement. When I was disciplined about it, I saw some awesome results.
-Zap
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Don't fly the 38 much except for maybe in the DA for practice and the MA's for jabo runs... but this is what I've found.
Since all the guns are in the nose not a whole lot of conversion choices are needed. The only one you'll really have to mess with is the 20mm. I have mine set out a bit farther to keep it a little closer in line with the 50's as it travels. To short and it drops to fast, to long and it travels slightly above the 50's.
There are many posts on how 20's travel through the air. Trying to find that perfect trajectory to meet up with your 50's at your chosen conversion point (or WHERE YOU NORMALLY TAKE YOUR SHOTS) is not easy.
Use this thought process for setting the 38's 50's then test it out using the .target command and you'll find I'm right.
As the bullets leave the guns from the nose of the plane they are in the shape of the nose which is maybe 3.5 feet wide (?) (http://p38assn.org/newsletters/October08/guns.jpg)
The convergence is set to meet at one point like the tip of a cone. After they meet they extend out in the other direction creating another cone. The farther they travel the larger the cone on the other end. Well you only started with 3.5 feet so twice the convergence set would end up the same size as the nose again.
(http://thesaurus.maths.org/mmkb/media/png/Cone.png)
Because of this I like to set my 50's at about 175 to 200. At 200 they hit like a laser. At 400 they hit like a shotgun.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/ahss147.jpg)
Any farther out and they spread into a larger cone but you have to keep this in mind.
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/convergence2/image002.gif)(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/convergence2/image003.gif)
This is where setting your 20's comes in handy. Try to match the 50's dropping with the single 20 for the best convergence. Basically all the bullets will stay in the same path and your hit sprites will all be in a circle I like to call "The Cone of Silence" :lol
I use 175 for 50's (=D300 nose cone) because my shots are normally taken a little closer and 400 for the 20's
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More good stuff, thanks fellas! :aok
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Honestly, there is no real reason or need to change the convergence on the P-38 guns as they are all center lined. Whatever the default convergence setting is, that's what I had my convergence set at. It's basically a personal preference sort of thing in regards to the P-38.
ack-ack
i thought that since the convergence also brings the rounds together where your sight is, that if you set it out farther, it would sort of "lob" the rounds, so they'de higher out there?
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i thought that since the convergence also brings the rounds together where your sight is, that if you set it out farther, it would sort of "lob" the rounds, so they'de higher out there?
That's what the bottom of the last illustration A8TOOL posted above shows.
This one:
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/convergence2/image002.gif)
Convergence too close on a far target and the projectiles fall short. Convergence set far out on a close in target and the projectiles potentially arc over the target.
wrongway
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That's what the bottom of the last illustration A8TOOL posted above shows.
This one:
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/convergence2/image002.gif)
Convergence too close on a far target and the projectiles fall short. Convergence set far out on a close in target and the projectiles potentially arc over the target.
wrongway
YES exactly. i saw that after i posted mine. i used to keep all my guns on the 38 all the way out to 650. but i kept missing close shots. brought it into 450, and i hit better, but didn't want to bring it in much closer than that.
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Yep, I find myself shooting below the target on straight 6 shots of 600 or less, but knowing this I find that I can do just as good. Personal preference there I spose.
-Zap
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I brought the MGS, in to 550 and the cannons to 575 and I already notice some good results. Thanks to all of you for your help. I'm sure I will have more 38 questions down the road.
Actually, I have a little trouble getting a good roll over at the top of a climb to come down on someone. Hurri's been giving me fits too. Back to the drawing board lol.
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turn combat trim off as you get slow and roll over the top, it will roll a lot quicker... well not like a Folk-Wulf, but quicker than normal :D
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I find that I have no trouble getting bullets to converge on my 38.
That was your question right? :)
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It was the original one yes.
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I find that I have no trouble getting bullets to converge on my 38.
That was your question right? :)
Your self-deprecation is so underappreciated :)
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Every plane I fly, cannons 275, MG's 250
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One thing I want to point out is this . what delirium <I think> is also doing that he didn't explain is this , by putting his 20mm 50 farther out than his .50's . He makesthe cannon and mg's hit much closer together . Due to differences in muzzle velocity and other factors placing the 20 mm this way they hit much closer together then if they are set at the same range . Go to TA and check the difference by using the friendly lock . It will clearly show the 2 x's much closer together .
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I normally shoot inside 200. I set my guns to 200. If I can all my shots are made from nose to tail or wing root to wing root.
That way I don't pass through the parts and risk damaging my ride.
I do this with all my rides. I have a notch on my vertical line above the pipper which lets me ping out to 800 just to wake the guy up. He shouldn't be asleep when he turns and takes one for the gipper.
If you notice it is not a convergence set up for any type of HO. I don't teach that nor do I do it (unless I just wanna p the guy off :lol). There are lots of other folks that can do that.
Ren
Aces High Training Corps
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One thing I want to point out is this . what delirium <I think> is also doing that he didn't explain is this , by putting his 20mm 50 farther out than his .50's . He makesthe cannon and mg's hit much closer together . Due to differences in muzzle velocity and other factors placing the 20 mm this way they hit much closer together then if they are set at the same range . Go to TA and check the difference by using the friendly lock . It will clearly show the 2 x's much closer together .
It's funny I guess, but it shouldn't work that way...
If the cannon rounds fly slower than the MG's, they'll tend to fly a path with a more exagerated arch. And the MG's would fly "straighter". If that's the case, then the cannon rounds will fly a path ABOVE the path the bullets fly, and won't drop down to the level of the bullets until they hit the set convergence distance...
Setting the cannon to converge at a point further away than the MG's should exagerate that difference even more... Causing the cannon rounds to fly a path even higher than they normally would, or even further outside the flight-path of the MG rounds...
Conversely, setting the cannon rounds to hit at a distance slightly closer than the MG should be a better compromise... This should cause the cannon rounds to fly a path that isn't as high above the MG's flight path through the course of the flight, and hit slightly below the MG rounds.
Assuming the cannon rounds flew an arch that was 1 foot more vertically pronounced than the MG's, setting the cannons to hit closer would cause the cannon rounds to fly only 6 inches above the MG's at their highest point, and hit 6 inches low at the target distance... Whereas setting the cannons to hit further out may cause the cannon rounds to fly a path as much as 1.5 feet above the flightpath of the MG rounds...
Sounds backwards maybe, but if you stop to think about the flightpaths for a minute... I suppose I could draw a diagram...
Of course, I'm not positive (although I do suspect) that the MG's fly a "flatter" trajectory anyway. If the MG's actually fly a more pronounced arch than the cannon rounds, then setting the cannons to hit further out may be the correct option.
And of course, setting the MG's and cannons to hit at a certain point is really only going to matter on a target that appears stationary, because the cannon rounds and MG rounds may all hit a certain point, but they won't do it at the same time. On a crossing target, that would require a differing amount of lead for the cannons vs the MG's. If you lead enough for the faster-flying rounds, your slower flying rounds will pass behind the target. Lead a bit extra for the slower rounds, and the faster rounds will have too much lead, and pass in front of the target.
Toss in a different rate of fire for the guns and things could start getting a bit complicated, hehe!
Of course, a 25yd difference between the two convergences probably doesn't make more than an inch of difference anyway...
Ballistics is fun.
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I never thought it out but I see your point . So I went into the TA to check . The green crosses are closer together with the 20mm 50 farther out . I reread your post mountain . I think you have the right of it . After I got a pen and paper and sketched it out I agree. However the 2 X's when u enable friendly lock say otherwise . That being said , is it a bug ? Wouldn't the fact that the X's are closer together mean you are landing more concentrated bursts on you target moving or other wise ?
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Good questions, and I can't say that I know... I've never played with the nose-mounted guns in the TA.
One thing I've noticed in the TA is that the little green x doesn't always go where the bullets go... It's not quite a "perfect" tool. Rolex and I flew together in there doing quite a bit of testing a while back (over a year ago, I believe), and we were able to find some flaws with where the green x told you to shoot under certain circumstances. We actually had to aim differently in certain situations than the x told us to, in order to score hits. Honestly, I don't remember the specifics anymore though. I believe that firing while inverted was one place to see that.
I do a huge amount of shooting IRL, and pay a lot of attention to how things work. I shoot flat shooting rifles like my 22-250, and very slow, highly arched smoothbores like my BP Brown Bess (.75 cal). Even some BP cannons (Although I've now sold mine...) I pay a lot of attention to detail. Coming into the game with that knowledge, I'm probably looking for things that most folks don't pay attention to. Overall, I/we found the "shooting" model to be pretty close, but not quite perfect (I'm not complaining, it's way better than I expected it to prove out, and I have no idea how to make it better...)
A few things to realize when you test- One, the target is WAY bigger than you think. It's huge... The spacing between each ring is ten feet (from what I recall) which makes the center ring 20 feet across, and the total target size is 100ft x 100ft. What looks like a pretty nice, tight group may actually be 10-15 feet across! Two, ballistic "facts" like the fact that bullets will strike high when you fire uphill, OR downhill, are modelled correctly. I believe I see errors when I fire upside down, or in "knife-edge" attitudes, but it's awful hard to test/prove that. If there are errors there, I can't say that they adversely affect the game. Level flight is pretty easy, I do all my testing on Auto-level, afetr speed has built up and stabilized. Remember, in game most people hit things (with guns) less than 5% of the time... I'm not sure how much more difficult HTC needs to make the shooting... Also, if you fire while experiencing anything more or less than 1G your results will be skewed.
Another big factor is the vertical spacing between your "line of sight", and the muzzle of the weapon. The greater that distance the more difficult things get. When mounting a scope on a rifle, getting the scope as low and close to the barrel as you can is beneficial. In a plane like the F4U, that vertical distance appears to me to be 5-6 feet. It's less (so, better...) in a P38 (or any other nose-mount gun). Draw a line from your eye, through the sight, and to the target. That's always a straight line... Now, realize that in addition to tilting the muzzle up to compensate for trajectory, you also need the bullet to "come up" to your line of sight, and generally THROUGH your line of sight (in a hand-held rifle), to drop back down onto the target at range. My .270 bullet will cross my line of sight at about 25yds, be about 2.5 inches high at 50 yards, and hit the bulls-eye at 100, for example. If I set my F4U convergence at 100yds, with a flat shooting gun like a .50, where will my bullet hit at 200yds? Extremely high... For a 200 yard shot, the .50 has less than 3 inches of vertical "arch". But in the F4U with it's low guns, in order for the bullet to cross my line of sight at 100yds, its coming up roughly six feet! That's pretty steep! With the flat trajectory of the .50's I would guess my bullet would be a little less than 6 feet above the target at 200 yards, roughly 10-11 feet high (above my line of sight) at 300yds, maybe back to only 6-8 feet high at 400, and eventually coming back down to my line of sight... See what I mean?
Now, in game, that's not what I see. I can't get my bullets to hit high (above my line of sight) no matter how close I set my convergence. Even setting convergence to 200 should result in high hits at 300, when you take the line of sight and flat trajectory into account. Now, it may have something to do with the sighting system, I don't know... When we look through the sight, is it basically a pane of glass? Or are we seeing an image that compensates for the distance between the eye and the muzzle? No idea...
Now, if we tip the plane on its side, the guns are no longer tilted "up" to compensate for gravity, but to the side instead. Where should the bullets go now? Way over to the side due to the tilt of the guns, and way low, because there's no longer any tilt to fight gravity...
Put the plane inverted... now where should the bullets go? Now the "upward" barrel tilt to compensate for gravity is actually reversed... The barrels are now tilted to "assist" gravity... With a convergence set at say, 200yds, the bullets should actually cross through the line of sight earlier, so from the upside down pilots view his bullets will hit high (or completely miss the target, hehe!), which in reality means he's firing well UNDER his target (barrels are tilted down, and gravity is pulling down).
Anyway, there's a lot too it when you really look at it. And we're only looking at vertical aspects so far. There's probably more to it than we really want to discuss...
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I don't think its the flight of the rounds more than its where there all meeting up at. Therefore beings that the cannon rounds or heavier you have to put more lift in them the make them converge at the same point as the lighter MG rounds. By setting the cannon rounds closer then the MG rounds you would in fact be shooting underneath point of convergence of the MG rounds.
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I don't think its the flight of the rounds more than its where there all meeting up at. Therefore beings that the cannon rounds or heavier you have to put more lift in them the make them converge at the same point as the lighter MG rounds. By setting the cannon rounds closer then the MG rounds you would in fact be shooting underneath point of convergence of the MG rounds.
If the cannon rounds are set to the same convergence as the MG rounds, they should all pass through the same point at that set convergence distance... That's what setting convergence is about.
If your MG convergence is set at 200, your bullets should hit the bulls-eye at 200. If your cannon convergence is set at 200, your cannon rounds should hit the bulls-eye at 200.
Why would you sight in any gun at 200, if you wanted it to hit the bulls-eye at 300?
Convergence sets the desired impact point. If you need to set the cannon convergence to 300 in order to hit the target at 200, something ain't right... If setting cannon convergence to 300 results in shots hitting the bull at 200, where do they hit at 300???
Or are we under the impression that HTC has the cannon rounds hitting low at their set convergence? How low?
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If the cannon rounds are set to the same convergence as the MG rounds, they should all pass through the same point at that set convergence distance... That's what setting convergence is about.
If your MG convergence is set at 200, your bullets should hit the bulls-eye at 200. If your cannon convergence is set at 200, your cannon rounds should hit the bulls-eye at 200.
Why would you sight in any gun at 200, if you wanted it to hit the bulls-eye at 300?
Convergence sets the desired impact point. If you need to set the cannon convergence to 300 in order to hit the target at 200, something ain't right... If setting cannon convergence to 300 results in shots hitting the bull at 200, where do they hit at 300???
Or are we under the impression that HTC has the cannon rounds hitting low at their set convergence? How low?
I noticed the difference in the hanger while setting the convergence on the 109's, pull the MG's out then pull the cannon out until the cannon line matches the MG's line and the cannons about 50 yards further then the MG's. And your point is valid it should match up at the set distance. I don't know if it has to do with the fact that a through the hub cannon is lower then the MG's and you have to aim it higher to match.
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I noticed the difference in the hanger while setting the convergence on the 109's, pull the MG's out then pull the cannon out until the cannon line matches the MG's line and the cannons about 50 yards further then the MG's. And your point is valid it should match up at the set distance. I don't know if it has to do with the fact that a through the hub cannon is lower then the MG's and you have to aim it higher to match.
I just did that Cajunn (first time I've looked at the 109 convergence, hehe!). I think I see what you mean. Although, if I zoom in while setting mine, the lines meet when the convergence for both MG and cannons is the same. If I don't zoom in, it looks like they match when the cannons are stretched further out, but when I zoom in I see the difference. Those lines are straight, too, so aren't exactly accurate when it comes to trajectory, which is the whole premise behind setting convergence different for MG's and cannons.
It's funny I suppose, but the small difference in trajectory, and the small difference in convergence makes little difference, especially since (from what I can see) the bullets NEVER go above the line of sight. The small difference imparted by having a different convergence (a few inches at 300 yards?) setting is probably smaller than the modeled dispersion of the guns anyway (which appears far greater in the testing I've done).
And the fact that the cannon is mounted lower than the MG's helps too, since the greater arch in the trajectory will actually bring the cannon rounds up closer to the path the MGs fly.
I mainly wanted to point out that the idea of setting the cannons further out is flawed in reality. Especially if the cannons are mounted alongside or ABOVE the MG's.
Here's a previously posted digram showing a bunch of convergence info. I "painted" in some colored lines to highlight what I'm referring to. The red line is the line of sight. See how the bullets come up above it? The yellow line shows a flatter trajectory round, vs the green line which shows the effect of setting a more arching trajectory round further out. See how the flight path deviates so far from the flightpath of the MG's? Setting the convergence of both to be the same would minimize that effect. And in reality, setting the MG's further out than the cannons (reverse of the prescribed recommendation) may give the best "happy medium" of trajectories.
You can also see how firing while banked would cause your rounds to drop low and to the side...
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/Copyofp-51b-guns.jpg)
And again, this really matters the most on "stationary" targets, because no matter how you set your convergence, the MG's and cannon won't arrive at the same place at the same time. That's actually WHY the trajectory is different... Cannon rounds and MG bullets fall at almost the same speed. It just takes longer for the cannons to get there, and trajectory is mainly driven by speed and TIME.
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Love the chart I saved it I hope its ok, and I understand what you are saying and really never zoomed in while setting the convergence I will from now on though. And setting convergence under 200 yards is probably better because according to the chart it puts your line of fire in your line of sight, because your line of sight doesn't move, right?
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Your line of sight doesn't change.
I don't think I'd set it any closer than 200. And I don't think I'd set it any further than 400. But it does come down to your preference. I set mine at 275.
The chart shows wing-mounted 50's, nose mounts will vary from what the chart shows.
It's not my chart either, I found it on a different post.
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If the cannon rounds are set to the same convergence as the MG rounds, they should all pass through the same point at that set convergence distance... That's what setting convergence is about.
If your MG convergence is set at 200, your bullets should hit the bulls-eye at 200. If your cannon convergence is set at 200, your cannon rounds should hit the bulls-eye at 200.
Interesting read MNTMAN but there is still an argument there. The cannons will drop faster than the 50's which as we know shoot straighter. If your going in a nice straight and level line it would all work out perfectly but if your pulling back on the stick even slightly then everything changes. In the real world I'm sure there is an exact science to this but this is HTC's world. All 50's don't shoot the same here and is dependent on how HTC see's fit to model the planes for use here.
As I said before. HTC has messed with the 51's three times that I know of since AH 1. each time they messed with it they also changed the way it shoots. That can also be said of the F4U-C. When I first started it was the baddest plane of the set. It's now a much different plane compared to that earlier version.
Cannon rounds and MG bullets fall at almost the same speed. It just takes longer for the cannons to get there, and trajectory is mainly driven by speed and TIME.
Hummm
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They are hipanios, wont they have just about the same trejectory as a .50?
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They are hipanios, wont they have just about the same trejectory as a .50?
Hispanos or closer in ballistics to the .50 cals compared to the other 20mm in the game but there is still a difference and there should be its a heavier round its like comparing a 22/250 cal. to something like a 308 cal. ballistics or close but not the same
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Ok, thank you.
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If your going in a nice straight and level line it would all work out perfectly but if your pulling back on the stick even slightly then everything changes. In the real world I'm sure there is an exact science to this but this is HTC's world. All 50's don't shoot the same here and is dependent on how HTC see's fit to model the planes for use here.
Which is why I mentioned that if you were firing at anything other than 1G your results would be skewed...
And I highly doubt that HTC has changed anything with the P51 or F4U guns. I believe the flight model for the individual planes is probably not tied directly to the ballistics model. I could be wrong, maybe HTC will let us know.
The common "slang" we use is that cannon rounds drop faster than MG rounds. In reality, they probably drop at nearly the exact same rate per second. If you took a cannon projectile, and a MG projectile (minus the case) and dropped them at the same time from the same height, they'd likely hit the ground at almost the same time. Density differences and surface area may cause them to be not quite identical, but still they'd be so close that it would surprise you. One may fall slightly faster, but not much.
So they fall at about the same rate.
The thing that makes the cannons appear to fall faster is the time it takes them to reach the target. It takes them longer, so they fall further, but not faster...
I'd actually expect that the larger size and lesser density of the cannon projectiles would make them fall slightly slower than the MG rounds. Something tells me whatever the cannon rounds are filled with to make them go "pop" is less dense than the lead MG round. The denser MG round would fall faster unless the cannon round had less surface drag.
For ease of math, lets say they fall at the same rate, 10 feet per second (not realistic, but easy math...). Again for ease of math, lets say the MG round flies 2x as fast as the cannon round (again, not realistic, but easy). We fire them at a target 200 yds out. At the instant the MG round hits the target, the cannon round is 1/2 way to the target. Both rounds have fallen the same distance at this point (let's say 1 foot). The MG round is done, there's a hole in the target. The cannon round still needs to continue the flight, and is still falling. When it gets to the target, it's 2 feet low. Not because it fell faster, but because it took 2x as long to get to the target. It fell twice as far, but not twice as fast. See what I mean? Time is the important factor.
I see the opposite effect with my muzzleloading rifle when I fire the heavier projectiles vs the lighter round balls. The round balls hit LOWER than the heavier bullets at the same range. How can that be??? It's time again...
The lighter ball (235 gr) starts out at a faster speed, but slows down quickly, losing almost 1/2 of its velocity at 100 yds. The heavier bullet (400gr) starts a bit slower, but retains its speed much better (more mass, but equal frontal area). Although it starts slower, it ends its journey with a higher velocity, and an overall lesser TIME. Because it gets to the target quicker, it falls less, even though it and the ball fall at nearly the same rate, vertically, per second...
Confusing? Maybe... But also pretty neat!
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In my limited experience with convergence (and this is with the P38's ofcourse) all the rounds (mg and cannons) hit bullseye at convergence distance (Tested with .target offline).
The cannons fly a greater arc (due to all the excellent reasoning explained earlier by those in the know) and so will deviate more if fired not at convergence distance.
What prompted me to bring my convergence down from 650 to 450 was the fact that in a dead six, one g shot, my cannon rounds wouldn't land on targets 200 yards ahead of me. They were flying over the target of course, and I was experiencing reduced lethality (after all that work getting the target slowed :cry)
Another factor would be g forces being pulled at the time of shooting. Higher Gs = more deviation in trajectories between the 0.50s and the 20mm (due to increased mass and slower velocity perhaps?).
I think, since only a small % of your shots will be taken at just 1g (unless you're one of those pros and manage to unload before every shot :aok), most people set the 20mm a little further out, to sort of compensate for this increased drop, without altering its low G trajectory too much.
Thats just my $0.02.
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In my limited experience with convergence (and this is with the P38's ofcourse) all the rounds (mg and cannons) hit bullseye at convergence distance (Tested with .target offline).
The cannons fly a greater arc (due to all the excellent reasoning explained earlier by those in the know) and so will deviate more if fired not at convergence distance.
What prompted me to bring my convergence down from 650 to 450 was the fact that in a dead six, one g shot, my cannon rounds wouldn't land on targets 200 yards ahead of me. They were flying over the target of course, and I was experiencing reduced lethality (after all that work getting the target slowed :cry)
Another factor would be g forces being pulled at the time of shooting. Higher Gs = more deviation in trajectories between the 0.50s and the 20mm (due to increased mass and slower velocity perhaps?).
I think, since only a small % of your shots will be taken at just 1g (unless you're one of those pros and manage to unload before every shot :aok), most people set the 20mm a little further out, to sort of compensate for this increased drop, without altering its low G trajectory too much.
Thats just my $0.02.