Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yenny on April 23, 2009, 06:16:03 PM
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I found this really cool video of an F-15 v. F-16 went in a rolling scissor after a merge. It just look pretty nifty and make me wish i can play AHII again QQ. The second vid is about the air force red flag game. The third vid is another dogfight training vid. It's safe for work.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=466_1240521772
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bec_1173457821
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ac5_1174322490
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You can watch the full length films of the Red Flag and Female Tomcat driver on Hulu.com
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The very first video isnt from Red Flag, at least the movie. You can hear them trying to breath with the G's hitting em!! And the Eagle pilot talking saying "dont turn into me, dont turn into me!" Hes saying it to the falcon even though the falcon pilot cant hear him. I find myself doing hte same thing when im engaged in a dogfight in the Main arena!! Real fighter pilots or cartoon pilots all do the same thing!!
Great video!! Thanks!!
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Joedog31
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The very first video isnt from Red Flag, at least the movie. You can hear them trying to breath with the G's hitting em!! And the Eagle pilot talking saying "dont turn into me, dont turn into me!" Hes saying it to the falcon even though the falcon pilot cant hear him. I find myself doing hte same thing when im engaged in a dogfight in the Main arena!! Real fighter pilots or cartoon pilots all do the same thing!!Great video!! Thanks!!
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Joedog31
While flying do they eat cheesy fries, feed/take out their dogs on autopilot, go to forums and post, talk cheet to the enemy on a multi country channel, take a dump, pee off the balcony, google sheepish beauties, and squealch annoying squaddies? Well then, I guess we cartoon pilots are just like real fighter pilots. :D
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Also enjoy a few "Uisge Beatha" or beer, laugh with or at someone on radio, break from formation to chase someone on the deck etc :devil
Nice vids, thanks Yenny :aok
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I just had an orgasm watching the 1st video! :O
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Its wierd that there are so few crashes when jets do training like this in real life. I would prolly ram someone on the first HO :)
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Its wierd that there are so few crashes when jets do training like this in real life. I would prolly ram someone on the first HO :)
Its OK. It may not be a collision on the other guys front-end ;)
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Its OK. It may not be a collision on the other guys front-end ;)
Yeah im kinda wondering what their crash model is like :confused:
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Here some vids of actual footage from dogfights between HAF jets Vs Turkish jets over Aegean mostly.
Srry but not subtitles and the quality of the vid its not as good as the one above but at least gives some idea of dogfights
www.youtube.com/watch?v=89rZKL9S1BA&feature=related http://
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hLsWKrEAhM&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5Q-KapP-k&feature=related
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hehe I found myself in a rolling scissor and trackin target like that (for the first film) , so it was just like damn so it does look like that in real life !
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Its OK. It may not be a collision on the other guys front-end ;)
:lol
hope overlag wont mind me posting these, he was driving home last year and spotted 2 RAF harriers engaged in an extended low-alt dogfight. these are not the most stable aircraft to fight in, and note they still have drop tanks onboard :o
(http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_pics/img_1809_edit_sm.jpg)
(http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_pics/img_1810_edit_sm.jpg)
(http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_pics/img_1812_edit_sm.jpg)
:rock
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Holmes they aren't showing up.. 404 error.
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:( strange I can see them fine
edit: hosted them on a different server, hows that?
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Works now.. Where'd he take these?
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Just watched the second vid. Very cool :aok, but it looked like the F-16 won (or was it a MiG-28? :huh). So why was the Eagle driver getting pumped? Maybe a little bit of "cinematic license" there.
One other thing. We fly WWII aircraft, so the flares would be useless. Here's an idea, maybe HTC could give me a "Stuka" dispenser instead to decoy enemy's off my 6?
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Works now.. Where'd he take these?
over Rutland Water I think, Leicestershire (pronounced Lester-shur btw ;))
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First video is very cool, thanks yenny!
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over Rutland Water I think, Leicestershire (pronounced Lester-shur btw ;))
They often practice in the open like that, or was it a one-off? Or is his drive home thru military airspace?
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its not restricted airspace afaik, although there are alot of bases around there. formal fighter training happens in wales, I'm guessing they do the odd informal fight just to keep sharp, and cus its fun :D
edit:
did a little googling and found out that the RAF has a hard deck of 8000' for dog fighting in unrestricted airspace, raised from 5000' after a fatal crash in Cambridge in 1979. looking at the pics, and from lag's account of the fight (including a vertical rolling scissors at one point :cool:) I'd say they were bending the rules a little on this occasion.
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That would look damn cool on video..
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While flying do they eat cheesy fries, feed/take out their dogs on autopilot, go to forums and post, talk cheet to the enemy on a multi country channel, take a dump, pee off the balcony, google sheepish beauties, and squealch annoying squaddies? Well then, I guess we cartoon pilots are just like real fighter pilots. :D
Have you been spying on me?! :noid :noid
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So, glad you guys recognized a real rolling scissors when you see one. You may have heard the F16 call "snap" a couple of times. The first time he's claiming a snapshot (which you can't see in the video) the F15 doesn't buy it and, judging from where the F16 reappears it probably didn't have a decent shot. The second snapshot however looked OK, not great, just OK. BTW, the part about "don't pull into me" is due to the F16's proximity. For training there is a 500ft "bubble" around each plane which is right about where the F16 was. From that point, there could be the possibility for the F16 to pull hard directly into the F15 for a shot but it was way too close, would have resulted in pretty much a 90deg TCA and a very close pass/collision. Given the geometry the F16 proably didn't have any excess G to square the corner anyway. Just as a last comment, that's about how long a modern dogfight lasts.
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The second video is scripted crap. Looks like they tried to replicate the movie TOPGUN. Rippling flares, flying close to welded wing, no hard pulls, pure crap, level turns, etc., etc.
The third isn't actually a 1v1, it's just a training tail chase. The F5 is just providing a mildly entertaining target for the F14 as the student pilot gets the feel and sight picture. Better than the second video but not ACM.
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yeah you can hear a little stress in his voice when he says "dont pull into me". shame the vid quality isnt better, its hard to work out their attitude in some parts. great to see some modern jets getting stuck in :aok
moot, indeed vid would have been great. theres several places in the UK where you can see the RAF practising terrain masking and simulated bomb runs, theres something very cool about standing on a mountain and looking down on fast jets blasting past below you close enough to see the pilot :D. however, seeing a dog fight that clearly from the ground is a very very rare opportunity.
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Machyllneth loop (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=435498)
(http://eventphotographer.smugmug.com/photos/87502015-L.jpg)
wrongway
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Thank you for the excellent thread :aok UuHaaa!
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theres something very cool about standing on a mountain and looking down on fast jets blasting past below you close enough to see the pilot :D. however, seeing a dog fight that clearly from the ground is a very very rare opportunity.
That's exactly what I thought of, when I first played on that map in Il2, with the three high peaks.. You can see the whole valley from the edge of the airfields on the little plateaus on those peaks' sides. In reality it would make for a breath-taking view on dogfights happening below.
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nice find ww, theres some fantastic shots in there :aok looks exactly like where I used to go as a kid - Dolgethly (spelling will be way off, apologies to any welshmen watching - your language is impossible :D)
warning: those linked images may contain sheep
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U think thes pilots WHINE about HOs? i dont think they do.
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U think thes pilots WHINE about HOs? i dont think they do.
No, they do not, shots in the face are completely normal and expected as long as they are done safely. What is a legitimate complaint is "boresighting". This is any time another airplane puts his nose on another and keeps it there (for instance while trying to get a Sidewinder tone). Boresighting can occur regardless of the attitude from which they approach. It can be head-on or more usually when one plane is fast and the other slow such as at the top of a loop. The fast one boresights and the slow one cannot maneuver out of the way. It's extremely dangerous and we lost two F14's on my last tour when one of our younger guys did it. Here's what remained of his plane:
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/mace/MissingWing.jpg)
After a pass he extended up (about 30deg above the horizon) and reversed on the other F-14 which had turned low. This plane boresighted the other from above and ripped his wing right through the other's fuselage. The other plane came apart (pilot and rio ejected safely with minor burns). This one recovered from a high-speed spiral after ripping it's wing off and diverted into Pylabar Airbase in Singapore. It never flew again as the fuselage wingbox was bent.
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incredible that it could recover then land with so much of the wing missing (speaking from cartoon experience :uhoh)
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Is it just me or is it really an f-15 doing the filming in the first vid? As the camera lookss back over the right wing thats an f-16 wing and the other aircraft they are chasing is an f-16. The one filming is either a B model or D model with two seats. F-15's do not have wingtip rails for missles.
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could be an E model and possibly be the top of the right verticle stablizer
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It's an F15. F16 does not have a forward canopy bow and the seats are not reclined enough. There are only a couple of views of wingtips and one good shot of top of one of the vertical stabs. The LAU7 rails on an F16's wingtips are much larger than what you can see in the video but the F15 has small antennas for the RAW gear at the tips of the stabs and wings. These antennas are what you catch glimpses of, not a LAU7
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incredible that it could recover then land with so much of the wing missing (speaking from cartoon experience :uhoh)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LveSc8Lp0ZE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LveSc8Lp0ZE)
Almost the same situation with f15s.
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Ok, here's my question on the first vid, the rolling scissors:
over the top of one, and I am probably wrong here because I suck at ACM, but don't you pull up until almost stall? If so, I thought I read an F16 can hit the afterburners and climb straight up to above 50,000. That would mean it has enough power to not stall over the top like we do in AH. Why then doesn't he power up more, get above, and then come back down in a better position? He already was on top if I followed that and had the advantage didn't he?
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Ok, here's my question on the first vid, the rolling scissors:
over the top of one, and I am probably wrong here because I suck at ACM, but don't you pull up until almost stall? If so, I thought I read an F16 can hit the afterburners and climb straight up to above 50,000. That would mean it has enough power to not stall over the top like we do in AH. Why then doesn't he power up more, get above, and then come back down in a better position? He already was on top if I followed that and had the advantage didn't he?
F-16's can't climb vert to 50,000 ft. In a dogfight you are always trading energy for nose position. The winner is the guy who cashes in his energy for nose position in such a way as to achieve a position where he can employ weapons. If he misses his opportunities or blows all his energy and doesn't get a shot out of it, then he loses. If you just zoom for the moon trying to gain a positional or energy advantage, your opponent might just cash in all his energy and shoot you. It's no different than a zeke removing the elevator from a tiffie who just blew past and who is zooming away... It's hard to outclimb well-aimed 20mm.
There are some pilots who can't explain the theory very well who are quite successful in actual combat, and some who fully understand the theory but who can't think fast enough, aren't aggressive enough, or who don't have the physical characteristics they need, so they suck in actual combat situations. The trick is being just good enough at both that you won't be suprised by either a natural pilot who's dumb as a brick, or by a brainiac who can't pull G's or who can't fly very well.
I wish we could take vid cameras in the T-6, because we do that sort of thing a lot around here. We don't go for weapons employment because the T-6 doesn't have weapons and that's not part of the syllabus, but we do teach aggressive 3-dimensional maneuvering relative to another maneuvering aircraft and of course the instructors have to push it up a bit to maintain our skills... True rolling scissors aren't exactly what we look for but we will maneuver up to the point where a position of advantage is lost before we call knock it off in accordance with our training rules.
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Ok, here's my question on the first vid, the rolling scissors:
over the top of one, and I am probably wrong here because I suck at ACM, but don't you pull up until almost stall? If so, I thought I read an F16 can hit the afterburners and climb straight up to above 50,000. That would mean it has enough power to not stall over the top like we do in AH. Why then doesn't he power up more, get above, and then come back down in a better position? He already was on top if I followed that and had the advantage didn't he?
Nope, you should not be almost stalled over the top in a rolling scissors. You will certainly be slower over the top than coming across the bottom but being at or near a stall means you're hardly turning the plane at all and can have very limited controlability. As eagl mentions, trying to zoom can give your opponent time to get his nose around and he'll just follow you up and energy doesn't mean squat unless you can transform it into an offensive position and kill shot.
While obviously not a factor in AH but relevant to this video, modern fighters have missiles...you may be outside of guns range but that puts you in a missile envelope and you aren't going to outzoom a missile so you must be bringing your nose back down before your opponent can get his nose pointed at you for a missile shot. You can't just "loiter" around above a guy like you can in AH because all he has to do it point at you to get a shot off. A lower altitude, lower e fighter can simply use his ability to point to force his opponent to come down or turn.
To park yourself on top near a stall is sometimes referred to as a "flare shot"...basically you're just hanging out while spewing out a ton of heat for an IR missile to guide on yet can't maneuver to avoid it if one is fired. Much more so than with guns-only fighters, with AAM's you must closely monitor your opponent's nose position during the entire fight, even when you have significant separation (out to beyond visual range), and always preserve sufficient e to maneuver.
When it comes to ACM, the biggest advantage that modern afterburning jet engines give you in a dogfight isn't the show-stopping ability to climb like a rocket, it's the ability to sustain E even while performing almost continuous high G maneuvers. The fundamentals of position, angles and energy remain exactly the same as they are in AH, they're just applied differently taking into account the capabilities of modern technology.
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Yep looked at it again that is the top right tail on probably an E model. I didn't notice the forward canopy bow the first time.
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I was in the field this past week and saw F18s doing some type of training, from what it looked like they were doing Yo Yos to cut corners on the lead plane. Also saw A10s doing some cool scissors :salute
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Yep looked at it again that is the top right tail on probably an E model. I didn't notice the forward canopy bow the first time.
I'm fairly sure it's an F-15D or B. An E wouldn't have been able to hang with the F-16 as long due to so much extra drag and weight.
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While flying do they eat cheesy fries, feed/take out their dogs on autopilot, go to forums and post, talk cheet to the enemy on a multi country channel, take a dump, pee off the balcony, google sheepish beauties, and squealch annoying squaddies? Well then, I guess we cartoon pilots are just like real fighter pilots. :D
How did you know I was peeing off the balcony?
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I was in the field this past week and saw F18s doing some type of training, from what it looked like they were doing Yo Yos to cut corners on the lead plane. Also saw A10s doing some cool scissors :salute
lol yeah, those a10s have a sound to them.