Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Nath-BDP on October 25, 2000, 11:38:00 PM
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Perk or otherwise, the P51H never saw combat in any war, if allies get P51H then LW must get He 162, Horten IX Flying wing, Fw 190D12/13, Do 335A/B with Mk 112 55mm cannon, Ta 152H-1 with Ruhstal-Kramer X4s, and some super SAMs.
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(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/SturmJG3whitesofeyes.gif)
IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 "Udet"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 10-25-2000).]
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Nath you can have them all. I just want an F15.....
mav
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(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/Mk112.jpg)
Above is the Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 112, a 55 mm cannon which was basically an enlarged Mk 108, it fired a shell that weighed 3.3 lb, the weapon weighed 605 lb(!).
It fired at 300 rpm and had muzzle vel. of 1,950 fps. Only 10 examples were ever made.
Now you allies better not ask for P51H anymore or you will be facing this puppy in my Do 335B Zerstorer with 2x Mk 103 in wings too! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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So the thing never ever saw any combat in any war ?!?!
And yet it found its way into customer poll list ?!?!?!
Thanks for info, Nath, seems double standards again.
Why didn't planes like Me 262, He 162, Do 335, Go 229 included, if this what-if plane was there ?
bias maybe ?
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wow, P51H must be some plane to be equal to all of them! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nexx
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The pilots didn't want to fly it in Korea because it wasn't as tough as the older F-51D, since they were doing ground attack work.
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Oh yah.. wheres my Heinkel 162, if allies gets their P-51H in their list of 'WW2 planes'...
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blah, blah, blah.
Yours Truely,
SOB
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Fishu
He-162 was very bad plane. Very unstable with disharmony on controls it was very tricky in flight and only test pilots could handle it. More over He-162 needed 1,5 km runway for take off. It's really big surprise why this plane was put into mass production.
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Nath & Hristo,
Your complaining cause the P-51H made it into the poll and it didn't see combat, but what about your precious Ta-152-H1 that was in the same poll? (and subsequently got so many votes).
Sorry but the H1 didn't see combat either.
The only Ta152H's to see combat were H0's, which lacked GM1, and I believe also MW50 (would have to check my sources tonight).
So whats your choice? Do we accept both or neither?
You can't have it both ways.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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P-51H saw as much combat as the Ta 152H-1...
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Also the P-51H was deployed during WW2 in numbers approaching the full production run of FW-190D9 (555 before wars end).
Besides the Uber TA-152 shouldn't have any trouble with it at all right?
Does anybody have good performance numbers on the P-51H? Like climb and speed at various altitude. I have never seen this information posted anywhere.
Another piont to keep in mind. HT and Pyro can only model A/C that they have reliable information on throughout the performance range. Even if they wanted to model some of those obscure German A/C like the He-162 or the Horton Flying wing he couldn't because the flight test dat simply doesn't exist. You would be guessing at the speed or climb of any of those birds. That it what defines the list more than any other factor. Reliable information. Of course I'm sure the AH Ministry of propganda would be happy to provide information to Pyro on this one but I said reliable.
Later
F4UDOA
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"P51H never saw combat"
That's not a qualifier. It's pure LWwannabee roadkill intended to stack the odds in favour of the LW aircraft because the late war Allies planes were as good, if not all around better, than the German aircraft. To top it off the Allies didn't have the pressure of desperately needing to stop fleets of bombers with escort from ravaging thier country. Nor did the Allies have to push back the enemies rolling up thier ground forces left and right after they botched the war that they started. What you see in 1943-45 from Germany was born of pure desperation and self preservation. They tried literally everything with wings for a winning combination. Sure they had some great engineers. Not enough though. And they had imbeciles for policy and strategy makers. They Allies were not under this same pressure. And yet they still had over all more and better aircraft at the same time. In mid 44 to May 1945 the very air outside a prototypes hangar door was hostile and if it took to the air, worthy or not, it could literally find itself in combat. If a plane took off at Norfolk, Va. in 1944 it was not. It was thousandsof miles away from any hostile enemy aircraft. What few were left at that.
You can bet your bellybutton if NewYork city was being bombed in March of 1945 that not only would the P-51H been up there defending the air over that ciry but that circumstances leading to said happening we would have seen even BETTER aircraft from the US factories.
The P-51H, the F7F, the F8F, the P-47M and N as well as the P-80 were PRODUCTION aircraft during WWII. Not "one off" or small batch prototype jobbers.
If you want the Horton? Fine with me. I've got a bigger and badder list of US prototypes to bring to the table. Give me a P-47"J." It'll eat your list of German planes in the first post for lunch.
Of course you can go to Luft'46 and day dream about aircraft that never left the sketching phase.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 10-26-2000).]
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You allied crap pilot oppotrunist dweebs can take any damned über plane you want.
You'll need it when fighting the superior pilots of the LW.
Now go away and have another wet dream.
Dweebs.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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lol.
That cracked me up StSanta: D
-Westy
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This whole thread is based on one concept, if it did not fly in combat (as I define combat) before the end of WWII, it does not belong in this game.
This is as bad a choice as the "there were only XXX number built, so it does not belong" point of view. The U.S. player could set that number at, say 2,000 units delivered to the field as a minimum and then what would be left to fly?
If you want the "must have historicaly flown combat", will you also want the historic ratio of numbers? How about the historic fuel and spare parts supply? Be limited to the aircraft of one nation in the ratio that they were flown in combat(out of 50 LW birds in the air over Germany, what % were the latest new and improved models in historic use)? If so, I hope you like the Bf109G. A point can be made that after late '44 no German aircraft did much to change the outcome of the war, so should there be no German aircraft in the game post Oct.'44?
Yes, the P-51H did not see combat over Europe, but the Ta152 also did not.
For Allied "one-offs" I would like the P-40Q or the M.B.5 , or even the P-55 :-) Why not ask for the Ta 154 instead of the Ta 152?
This is one reason I like early/mid war and historic plane sets.
Verbage like :
>You allied crap pilot oppotrunist dweebs can
>take any damned über plane you want.
>You'll need it when fighting the superior
>pilots of the LW.
>Now go away and have another wet dream.
or
>It's pure LWwannabee roadkill
does not add to understanding or solving points of honest debate. As the juces flow, thought declines, as I know from my own past :-)
Look to see if there is a point that you can understand on the other side. You don't need to agree, but understanding will help get your own point across.
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Difference between the H-0 and H-1 was that the H-0 was a pre-production aircraft and the H-1 just added more fuel tankage, thats about it. Both had GM1/MW 50.
Btw the H-0/H-1 saw combat with JG 301 beginning in Late February 1945, Josef Keil shot down 5 aircraft in the Ta 152 which made him the only ace in that aircraft. Several other JG 301 pilots scored victories in the Ta 152 as well.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 10-26-2000).]
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The stab (Staff) Flight of /JG 301 was equipped with the H-1, Josef Keil scored his first kill in an H-1 on March 1st.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 10-26-2000).]
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First of all, the P-51H is no superplane. Unlike the other late-war planes, the P-51H has well under 2000 HP. (A p-51 airframe mated with a 2500 HP engine would have been a REAL superplane!)
Also note: There were more P-51H's by the end of the war than there were F4U-1C's. The P-51H was in regular squadron service by the end of the war; it just didn't happen to see any enemy planes (enemy planes were scarce by that time).
The P-51H didn't have cannons, either, and even by the current planeset wasn't a spectacular cimber (just over 4k/min)
Basically it was a P-51D with the excess weight removed. (okay, that is simplistic, but that's the general idea of it.) That means it was less durable than the P-51D.
If any US plane shouldn't be added, it would be the F8F (incredible climbing ability, incredible acceleration, zeke-like handling, etc, would blow away the N1K). And, even the F8F had weaknesses--slow by 1945 standards and weakly armed at the time.
For someone who flies German aircraft, think of it like this:
The P-51H is to the P-51D, as the FW-190A-5 is to the FW-190A-8. It's the same plane (essentially) with less weight. Except, in the American case, the plane got lighter as it was developed instead of heavier.
Compared to the likes of the Tempest and Ta-152H-1 and P-47M, the P-51H fits in quite well.
Rough performance numbers (these are by no means exact):
Top speed appox 470 MPH
Initial climb appox 4.2k.min
Turning ability better than P-51D, still not as good as spit IX.
J_A_B
P.S. -- Are there any P-51H's still flying?
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Specs of the P-51H-5-NA:
One Packard Merlin V-1650-9 twelve-cylinder Vee liquid cooled engine rated at 1380 hp for takeoff and a a war emergency power of 2218 hp at 10,200 feet and 1900 hp at 20,000 feet with water injection. Performance: Maximum speed was 444 mph at 5000 feet, 463 mph at 15,000 feet, and 487 mph at 25,000 feet. Range in clean condition was 755 miles at 359 mph at 10,000 feet, 1975 miles at 239 mph at 10,000 feet. Range with two 62.5 Imp. gall. drop tanks was 1150 miles at 339 mph at 10,000 feet and 1530 miles at 243 mph at 10,000 feet. An altitude of 5000 feet could be reached in 1.5 minutes, 15,000 feet in 5 minutes. Service ceiling was 41,600 feet. Weights: 6585 pounds empty, 9500 pounds normal loadedb, and 11,500 pounds maximum. Dimensions: Wing span was 37 feet 0 inches, length was 33 feet 4 inches, height was 8 feet 10 inches, and wing area was 235 square feet.
Powerloading: 4.28lb/HP
Wingloading: 40.4lb/ft^2
Checkmate! - with P-51H vs Fw 190D-9 we end up with the same situation as P-51D vs Fw 190A-8...
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 10-26-2000).]
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No P51H
thx
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<<<Checkmate! - with P-51H vs Fw 190D-9 we end up with the same situation as P-51D vs Fw 190A-8...>>>
Yesss this is the point!!!!!
New planes (P-51H, Ta152) = Same situation
Where is the progress of this game????
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Only one question that needs to be answered here. And this is for any AC...
Did it reach production in WWII??
Nuff said.
Dog out..
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DAng i realy luve when some say 190A8 is a mach for p51 D
#!@$%@#^#&^%*&^$(&@#$!@@#$!#@%$#^%&^$*&^(&^$%#$%^$#^$%@^$%&%^*&^
that my answer !!!!!!!!!!!
just go ahead alied just go and u will end up with Alied High game
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Originally posted by Wardog:
Only one question that needs to be answered here. And this is for any AC...
Did it reach production in WWII??
Nuff said.
Dog out..
So any aircraft that reached production should be in the game? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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There is nothing wrong with having the P-51H in AH. They did fly during WWII, as did the Ta-152H-1.
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Rendar
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Yes, they did fly in the Pacific Theater in WWII but saw no action.
And yes, if it was in production during WWII theres no reason why it shouldnt be modeled here or any other sim.
This give a large advantage to the LW as many jets saw production but no action.
Dog out........
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Not realy, He 162 saw action... I can't think of any other German jet that was produced but saw no action.
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Nath ill start a list when i get home.
Will be another 4 or 5 hours yet, ive only been at work for 12 hours now. The days still young.
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So we get the DO-335? I can only imagine the uberposts on that thing.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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Juzz--
I am not saying you are wrong. However, I have NEVER seen any clarity at all regarding the performance of the P-51H. Every source I look at says something different. Even two sources from the USAF quote widely difference performance for the P-51H.
That is why I did not attempt to provide exact numbers. I can't find anything "exact" that I can trust. That lack of consistent data, IMO, would be the largest stumbling block to modeling the P-51H. Everyone would have a different opinion of what the plane is capable of.
For example, in terms of absolute maximum top speed, I have seen figures everywhere from 465 MPH to 490 MPH. The 470 I stated is a guesstimate based on roughly what MOST sources seem to say.
As for maximum horsepower...I have never, until your post, seen any figure over 2000 horsepower. And, here I have to question, because the P-51H used the same engine as the P-51D did. I am NOT saying you're wrong; it may be that P-51H's were modified at some point. Once again, I have yet to see any agreement at all between sources on the subject of maximum horsepower for this plane.
Same story with climbing ability. All I can say is that almost all sources I have state over a 4 k/min initial climbrate; also most of my sources state that one intention of the P-51H was to improve the climbrate over the P-51D.
You are correct, though, in that a matchup between a P-51D and a FW-190A-8 is essentially the same end result as a matchup between a P-51H and a late-model FW. Which is actually my point--the P-51H is good, but compared to its comtemporaries it's no superplane.
Also: I personally don't care if the P-51H is never added to AH (likewise I don't care whether they add a Ta-152). All I want to do is dispel any myth that the P-51H is some sort of superplane. Good it is,but no better than its contemporaries (marginally better at best).
J_A_B
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This is so boorrrrinnnggg
The mid war allied planes are better. The late war allied planes are better. What makes any one think that the post war german planes would be better?
For any german plane you wana dig up that sacrifices handling or logical weapons load for climb or speed there are 5 allied planes that will kick its but.
Ask for all the german planes you like but they will be infferior to their contemporaries. Hell they will be inferior to the spit IXb. Thats the way it is.
THE GERMANS MADE 5HIT PLANES! live with it.
They make great models and interesting history but substandard rides.
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J_A_B; The P-51H's V-1650-9 had water-methanol injection, that's why it can output 2200HP.
Btw; Does anyone know how much power the F8F-1's R-2800-34W produced with WEP? 2100HP is obviously the "dry" power.
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So, Ta 152H-1 did see combat. Thanks, Nath, for bringing this.
As for best planes, no, Ta 152 was not the best plane in Luftwaffe inventory. IMHO, it was the 262. That thing saw combat.
So, if Verm insists that I change my mind considering Ta 152H-1 and its introduction to AH (despite Josef Keil and others in JG 301 flying the plane in combat), fine. Verm's vast knowledge (with enough arrogance) should immediately recognize my next (and by his standards far more valid) choice. The Me 262.
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Why didn't planes like Me 262, He 162, Do 335, Go 229 included, if this what-if plane was there ?
The list Pyro posted is a list of variants of current planes in AH, not entirely new planes.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 10-27-2000).]
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The p51-H did not see action in Europe but it was deployed in the Pacific for combat.
p51-H 2,218hp dry. V-1650-9
p51-H 465mph
Ta 152H-1 1,880hp dry 2,250 wet. Jumo 213-1
Ta 152H-1 472mph
Seems a close enough match except for turn rates.
Dog out.
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OK, take what dog said, and invert it. The ONLY thing close about the P-51H and Ta 152H-1 would be turn rate. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Juzz I don't have any exact figures, but I'd expect the -34W to be able to do as well as the -18W in the F4U-4, i.e. up to 2800 hp with the right fuel.
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Unlike many in this thread I do not "associate" myself with a nationality of aircraft nor do I fly one side of WWII. For some of you maybe there will be someone who will make a "Luftwaffe over Europe" sim where the focal point is the best and brightest of Germany only. But real life it wasn't that way.
I swear at times I feel like I'm at a Nuremburg rally with the way some folks react to valid crtiticisms of thier favorite aircraft.
I fly everything. And I'm not nationalistic about it either. About the only planes I don't fly are the 190-A8 and 109-G10. But I mix up me choices of ride depending on my mood and the situation in the MA.
As for the DO-335 and HE-162. I DO hope that HTC brings them on. I'd love to fly them. But bring on thier warts and all too, just like every other aircraft has and did in real life. Cause they sure had them, don't keep deluding yourselves that because they were 11th hour airplanes that they were engineering marvels. They weren't. The HE was a pig of a performer from acounts and the DO-335 would the scrouge and bane of the B-29 flying folks, not the P-51H or P-47M flyers.
Remember. In 1944 to 1945 the Germans were developing high alt bomber interceptors in thier fighters - well, as long as Hitler wasn't watching. But it wasn't air supremacy aircraft.
-Westy
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Nath your wrong, wrong, wrong.
The H0 lacked GM1 and MW50. And the H1 never saw combat period. In fact no H1's beyond the prototype were ever built. I will quote my sources this evening when I get home. JG301 was equipped with the H0 not the H1.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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It the book it says that it is uncertain wether or not Ta 152H-1s saw action with JG 301, however, in the book "Luftwaffe Fighter Aircraft in Profile" there are several profiles of H-1 aircraft from JG 301 and it states that Josef Keil scored his kills in an H-1 aircraft.
I beleive thats it highly probably that the H-1 saw action since there were some being built as early as January and there is a picture of a captured H-1 which had overpainted Geschwader markings in the Harmanns book.
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Tell me how you identify a H1 from an H0 in a picture?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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You read the artist's caption at the bottom Vermillion... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I want chinese biplanes and I'm not leaving until I get them!
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Hi
Guess what fellas? All my sources show that a total 0 read as "not a single one" P51H saw combat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Guess what? We don't decide which planes get added to AH, so our "selection criteria" don't count for squat. It's up to HTC to decide.
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Hi
LOL ur right theyll do whatever is in the best interest and best judgement for the sim.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Guess what? Juzz doesn't pay for Aces High so hes going to think our selection criteria doesn't count.
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GRUNHERZ said:
> Hi Guess what fellas? All my sources show that a total 0 read as "not a single one"
> P51H saw combat.
> thanks
> GRUNHERZ
To quote a fine post on a related thread (mine :-)
This whole concept is based on "if it did not fly in combat (as I define combat) before the end of WWII, it does not belong in this game".
If you use the "must have historicaly flown combat", will you also live with the historic use ratio of types?
Out of all fighter action in late 1945, what was the % of Ta 152 flights? That would give, say 10 flights a year total for a Ta 152 to be split between all players in AH?
Over Germany, what % of flights were in the latest new and improved models in historic use? I hope you like flying a well used Bf109G or FW190.
How about living with the historic fuel and spare parts supply?
Once we leave history behind in ANY way, then the question of "game balance" is the most important issue.
Part of this is the FACT the the Allies held back on rushing new types to the front, as there was NO NEED to do so in real history.
Allowing the use of an aircraft that had less affect on the war than bad luck in the landing pattern did is BALANCED by allowing
the use of mass produced aircraft that had been held back for historic reasons.
It's a games theory thing. That's why the U.S. does not have the A-Bomb as a standard load-out. Same reason the B-29 is not a mid '44 standard bird in the game. Or the B-36
as a mid '45 pick.
I would like to see early war birds, but if the "what if" stuff is allowed, it should work for all sides.
Nath-BDP said:
> Guess what? Juzz doesn't pay for Aces High so hes going to think our
> selection criteria doesn't count.
?
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Jeeezus...
...if all of you would stop looking at this issue through the colored-sunglasses of our respective favorite WW2 air services, we'd all realize that making all of these inane stipulations is not a good thing.
Any aircraft that saw combat or was in production by war's end should be a reasonable target for modeling. Regardless of whether it is German, Japanese, American, or British. The moment you get into these assinine numbers and impact arguments, it merely becomes a fragfest between the Allies and Axis, and that simply isn't the way to decide which aircraft should be modeled.
PS - The P-51H flew operational combat sorties in the PTO before VJ Day. However, it simply never encountered enemy aircraft... it's important to remember that the density of enemy activity was far less in the PTO than the ETO.
PPS - Shame on you Nath, this is exactly the kind of BS that has made the Warbirds community so divided between Axis and Allies... it would be better for AH if that crap didn't infect this environment too.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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OK guys, here's the PERFECT idea to settle once and for all the aircraft flying in AH.
LW guys want the Do335, Ta152 C & H series?
Allies want the P51H, P47J, F2G and F8F?
OK, lets do this historically, just as they did in in WW2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The Allied pilots get to fly ANYTHING which was in production by the end of WW2.
But only for 25 sorties, mind you. Then they have to delete AH from their hard drives and wait for the Korean-era multiplayer sim to come out. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps
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this discussions are all stupid since we have no SIM out this day, where 109 is so
good as it was.
for a REAL!! 109 FM i'll still have to wait
for oleg's IL2-sim. he posted several times,
that most "western" sims with 109 have f***
109FM inside.
sometimes i really hate the point, that only
US programmers (sorry guys) are developing
WW2 sims.
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Physics must work differently over here.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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I second the bla bla bla bla bla bla bla
....
this is a game, r u guys having fun?
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actually, i want to make it clear that i'm a total LUFTWAFFE type, but i agree entirely with Snakeeys post that begins JEEzUS!! . . .
i think all these planes have a right to be modeled . . and this line between axix n allies is ridiculous .....
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Who said that is a WW2-Sim? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Maik
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I guess we should recreat WWII with 100% realism ie Allied side won.
We should limit ACM as LW pilots got younger and greener, limit fuel and parts as Allied bombing took its tool over Germany ect. And when we get (if) B-29 the A-bomb is part of load out??
I know the devel is in the details but come on guys!! Its a Sim not a compleat recreation with toal accuricy
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I am a little late for any sort of comment, but here goes anyway.
Nath, did you happen to notice that the list Pyro put up was for "Late War Variants"? I am suspecting that he meant "variants" of planes that are "currently" in the plane set.
Get HTC to model an "Early War Variant" of your HE-16203 or the FW-190D50, then get them to model your dream "Late War Variant" as a perk.
Be for warned, the cost might be high!
Good Luck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime
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As I said before, screw the dweeb rides.
Lets have some early-mid war stuff.