Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: BUG_EAF322 on October 26, 2000, 04:36:00 PM
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Anyone noticed the difference between a landing on idle power and a landing while gliding.
every time i want a glide landing my plane overshoots (P38). the runway and i have too ditch. It seems the crate is unstoppable.
I know when a engine fail it should be feathered otherwise it would make a lot off drag.
I wanto be able to turn feathering on and off and see some difference, this could make my landings somewhar easier.
I hope u listen HTC
anyway thanks for reading
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Fighter props weren't featherable AFAIK.
Some bombers' were (not all IIRC).
So this is realistic, you cant' put "on or Off" the propeller. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The easiest solution might be to modify your approach path. In the real world, if your approach does not look good, you throttle up and go-around. If you're landing a damaged plane, then a ditch is not a bad thing IMO. Any landing you can walk away from and all that.
As RAM indicated, the ability to feather varied from plane to plane, although the P-38 was able to feather its props. It would be nice to see it some day, although there are other things I'd like to see first.
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Hi
I noticed that too if the engine is off it glides much faster than if engine is idling. Ive noticed this on all the planes.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Only the multi-engined planes have featherable props. On those planes in AH, the prop will feather if the engine is off. You can affect your glide with your engine idling by adjusting your RPM manually. Reducing RPM will increase your glide.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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thx Pyro unfortunally i guess this only available when there is feul left.
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Just pull a couple hard S turns and slip the hell out of it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
You a real pilot Bug? If not, here is a technique that can help you determine if you are to hi/low on your approach path so you know if you need to adjust your glide path/speed.
Set up a long final (straight in approach) lined up with the runway. Pick out a target near the end of the rwy, where you want to touchdown. I use an ack or the reloading shack. You should be at best glide speed(not sure what that speed is for the 38L, should be in the manual). With a steady glide angle and speed, keep this point at the same place on your windscreen. If this point starts to move under your nose, you will overshoot. If your nose starts to drop under this point i.e. the point moves up in your view, you will land short of it.
If you are coming in fast and low, you will have plenty of time to see what's gonna happen and pull off some S-turns to scrub speed with a slip on short final if needed. If you are coming in hi and fast you can slip it in with dive brakes and s-turns if needed. If you are hi and slow you have plenty of alt to get speed back up and touchdown where you want. The only time this method won't help you are if you are low and slow and you should be thinking about ditching anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Don't forget to use your flaps and gear, if you get speed down before you deploy them, they can help you slow down. On the other hand, you can also retract the flaps if you need some extra speed to make the field. Also, in the real world anyway (haven't been able to tell if it works here or not) if you think you are to fast and gonna roll off the end of the runway, as soon as you touch down retract the flaps, put the stick in your stomach(don't become airborne however) and grab the brakes! What this does is reduce the lift and puts more weight on the wheels for better braking(flaps retracted), and creates more drag (hi angle of attack with full up elevator) (short field landing technique).
ts
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No i'm not a real pilot but my father is ground mechanic so i took a couple off rides in my life, also i flew the bonzana once
i could take off and fly around it sure wasn't diffy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) i flew some sims before that.
still the landings looked much steeper.
I think the glide path is too long
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Even if the engine is off, if the prop is turning then you should have oil pressure if it's a hydraulic prop. Generator would be turning over too so an electric prop would have power. So I think we should be able to adjust RPM if you can see the prop rotating. Would have been a good question for one of the Con speakers, damn.
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Maybe, but probably not.
Just going on the 450 Pratt on the BT, but you have to run it up about 1500-1600 and hold it there for a minute or so to get the prop back in before shut down.
With an electric, it depends on rotation speed. The generator most likely cannot even be connected to the bus until suitable "in tolerance" volts and cycles are reached. Not sure on this as I have not been around a WW2 bird with an electric prop.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-27-2000).]
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bug
with p38 I usually lose e below 200mph, cut one engine and leave the other one on, lower gear, a bit of flap if necessary.
if you are too fast, slip a little (apply a rudder and aileron to the other direction)
the reason to leave one engine on in idle is in case u overshoot to go up again
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WOW Animal leave one fan turning in case of go around???
I fly twins in real life and that is a fast way to die, the most dangerous thing in a twin is a engine out on take off and allmost as bad in a go around.
You live on the edge and are to be commended (commited) <S>
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Scooter, one thing you will find out, is that these planes can fly on the edge without many consequences! Hell, if the 38's ground modeling was correct (can't taxi on one engine, why I don't know you just go around in circles, other twins allow you to in this game) you would find that it would be pretty easy to get airborne with one engine and full flaps! The FM's are dumbed down just enough to allow 'new recruits' to be able to take off and land them without to much trouble, and us old hands to be able to fly them in situtations we wouldn't normally dream of let alone try! Any one remember the torque we used to have on take off? Hell, the F4U is as tame as a Super Cub on a windless day now. Go figure.
ts
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Hi
I hear torque was even beter modeled before 103, now with 104 whats exactly the last time any of you fellas bothched a heavyhog takeoff? Ill agree I think it was dumbed down a lot for the new guys, I dont know why theres auto takeoff. AcesHigh v103 was the first sim to show me why so many casualties occured in routine takoffs and landings. So far, 104 has not continued in that direction.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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I agree for the Torque, but we still have left turning tendancies.
Author Topic: Feathering
BUG_EAF322
Member
Posts: 152
From: apeldoorn,the netherlands
Registered: Jul 2000
posted 10-26-2000 04:36 PM
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Anyone noticed the difference between a landing on idle power and a landing while gliding.
every time i want a glide landing my plane overshoots (P38). the runway and i have too ditch. It seems the crate is unstoppable.
I know when a engine fail it should be feathered otherwise it would make a lot off drag.
I wanto be able to turn feathering on and off and see some difference, this could make my landings somewhar easier.
I hope u listen HTC
anyway thanks for reading
IP: Logged
RAM
Member
Posts: 2348
From: Bilbao,Spain
Registered: Feb 2000
posted 10-26-2000 05:25 PM
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Fighter props weren't featherable AFAIK.
Some bombers' were (not all IIRC).
So this is realistic, you cant' put "on or Off" the propeller.
IP: Logged
Lepton
Junior Member
Posts: 15
From: Albuquerque, NM, USA
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 10-26-2000 05:39 PM
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The easiest solution might be to modify your approach path. In the real world, if your approach does not look good, you throttle up and go-around. If you're landing a damaged plane, then a ditch is not a bad thing IMO. Any landing you can walk away from and all that.
As RAM indicated, the ability to feather varied from plane to plane, although the P-38 was able to feather its props. It would be nice to see it some day, although there are other things I'd like to see first.
IP: Logged
GRUNHERZ
Member
Posts: 181
From: USA
Registered: Aug 2000
posted 10-26-2000 06:28 PM
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Hi
I noticed that too if the engine is off it glides much faster than if engine is idling. Ive noticed this on all the planes.
thanks GRUNHERZ
IP: Logged
Pyro
HiTech Creations
Posts: 1411
From: Grapevine TX
Registered: Jul 1999
posted 10-26-2000 10:05 PM
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Only the multi-engined planes have featherable props. On those planes in AH, the prop will feather if the engine is off. You can affect your glide with your engine idling by adjusting your RPM manually. Reducing RPM will increase your glide.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
IP: Logged
BUG_EAF322
Member
Posts: 152
From: apeldoorn,the netherlands
Registered: Jul 2000
posted 10-26-2000 10:28 PM
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thx Pyro unfortunally i guess this only available when there is feul left.
IP: Logged
tshred
Member
Posts: 252
From: Healy, Alaska
Registered: Sep 1999
posted 10-27-2000 02:38 AM
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Just pull a couple hard S turns and slip the hell out of it .
You a real pilot Bug? If not, here is a technique that can help you determine if you are to hi/low on your approach path so you know if you need to adjust your glide path/speed.
Set up a long final (straight in approach) lined up with the runway. Pick out a target near the end of the rwy, where you want to touchdown. I use an ack or the reloading shack. You should be at best glide speed(not sure what that speed is for the 38L, should be in the manual). With a steady glide angle and speed, keep this point at the same place on your windscreen. If this point starts to move under your nose, you will overshoot. If your nose starts to drop under this point i.e. the point moves up in your view, you will land short of it.
If you are coming in fast and low, you will have plenty of time to see what's gonna happen and pull off some S-turns to scrub speed with a slip on short final if needed. If you are coming in hi and fast you can slip it in with dive brakes and s-turns if needed. If you are hi and slow you have plenty of alt to get speed back up and touchdown where you want. The only time this method won't help you are if you are low and slow and you should be thinking about ditching anyway .
Don't forget to use your flaps and gear, if you get speed down before you deploy them, they can help you slow down. On the other hand, you can also retract the flaps if you need some extra speed to make the field. Also, in the real world anyway (haven't been able to tell if it works here or not) if you think you are to fast and gonna roll off the end of the runway, as soon as you touch down retract the flaps, put the stick in your stomach(don't become airborne however) and grab the brakes! What this does is reduce the lift and puts more weight on the wheels for better braking(flaps retracted), and creates more drag (hi angle of attack with full up elevator) (short field landing technique).
ts
IP: Logged
BUG_EAF322
Member
Posts: 152
From: apeldoorn,the netherlands
Registered: Jul 2000
posted 10-27-2000 04:19 PM
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No i'm not a real pilot but my father is ground mechanic so i took a couple off rides in my life, also i flew the bonzana once
i could take off and fly around it sure wasn't diffy i flew some sims before that.
still the landings looked much steeper.
I think the glide path is too long
IP: Logged
funked
Member
Posts: 4225
From: Raider Nation
Registered: Jul 1999
posted 10-27-2000 05:14 PM
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Even if the engine is off, if the prop is turning then you should have oil pressure if it's a hydraulic prop. Generator would be turning over too so an electric prop would have power. So I think we should be able to adjust RPM if you can see the prop rotating. Would have been a good question for one of the Con speakers, damn.
IP: Logged
Toad
Member
Posts: 951
From: Field of Dreams, Grassstrip, USA
Registered: Aug 1999
posted 10-27-2000 06:21 PM
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Maybe, but probably not.
Just going on the 450 Pratt on the BT, but you have to run it up about 1500-1600 and hold it there for a minute or so to get the prop back in before shut down.
With an electric, it depends on rotation speed. The generator most likely cannot even be connected to the bus until suitable "in tolerance" volts and cycles are reached. Not sure on this as I have not been around a WW2 bird with an electric prop.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-27-2000).]
IP: Logged
Animal
Member
Posts: 107
From: Puerto Rico
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 10-30-2000 02:14 AM
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bug
with p38 I usually lose e below 200mph, cut one engine and leave the other one on, lower gear, a bit of flap if necessary.
if you are too fast, slip a little (apply a rudder and aileron to the other direction)
the reason to leave one engine on in idle is in case u overshoot to go up again
Scootter, would you fly at Fly Safety by any chance?
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WOW!!!! What was that!!! Sorry LOL!
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Toad thanks for the info!
Fw 190 is an electric prop plane, and I know that engine out landings were done with gear up, even on an airfield. Maybe lack of juice was the reason.
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I almost always get to full flaps very early in my approach.
If still have an engine, than I use engine power to adjust my glide angle. Too low apply power, to high chop the throttle. Try to keep speed 130-150 mph.
For the P-38 I set up to land at approximately 120-130 mph just off the end of the runway. I try to touchdown at about 100 mph, by cutting the throttle and applying an easy back pressure on the stick.
For dead stick landings you don't have this luxury. In those case I come in hotter, bleeding speed as described by TS above. I use high G S turns until I am below 200mph. Then I drop flaps and start crabbing to adjust my speed for landing.
As TS describes, your primary drag element for landing is flaps and gear. Drag becomes quite significant for the 3-4th stage of their deployment and really effective at 5th stage deployment.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime
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BUG_EAF322
You have a ligitimate point that overshoots are too easy when the prop RPMs are all the way back. In the short term, you may wish to increase your prop RPM when you are sure that you have the runway made (yes, prop RPM can be increased with a dead engine, use the + and - keys on the numeric keypad). This will give you better deceleration in flare and on the runway. Although a single-engine plane can't feather its propeller, it can control the pitch enough to have an enormous effect upon glide and deceleration characteristics.
In the long term, I think there should be some tweaking to the flight modeling. Have you noticed how powerful ground effect is in 1.04? If you approach the runway with a little extra speed, you can hardly force the plane to touch down. I have flown close to 50 different real planes, and none of them, even the gliders, has this pronounced ground effect. Couple this feature with unusually poor deceleration of a AH fighter with prop in the low RPM setting, and you have a difficult and somewhat unrealistic task of getting the plane stopped on the available runway.
Hitechcreations could approach this problem through either toning down the ground effect somewhat, or taking a closer look at the slow-speed drag characteristics of their fighters when the prop is in the low RPM setting.
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Bug:
Don't feel bad. An engine-out landing is a tough problem in real life too, except in a very light trainer. You only get one try.
In general, keep your plane clean until you KNOW you have made the field. Then set up approach airspeed and drop gear. Use flaps and slips as required to control your speed and descent rate. Use full rudder on forward slips, and get as much aileron in as you can. Don't increase flaps until you know you won't have to retract them. Remember, better to be long than short, so aim for 1/3 down the runway.
If you are consistently overshooting the runway, your approach speed is probably too high. Pick a number and hold it. Stall speed plus 1/3 is a good rule of thumb.
Learn the difference between a wheel landing and a 3-point landing. If you are too fast, do a wheel landing, lock the tail down, and stand on the brakes.
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Hmm, "the glide path is too steep"? Why not fly a less steep final then?