Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Vermillion on November 12, 2001, 06:57:00 PM
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Does anyone have any good data on 360 degree turn times for the Dora?
Niklas? Funked? Wells? Anyone.... ?
Thanks
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no test data...best I can do is a theoretical figure extrapolated from A5 test data for stall speed (CLmax). See Funked's data...
If the plane weighs 4270 kg with a wing area of 18.3 sq m and CLmax = 1.4, a 3.0g turn at 200 mph ias gives a turn radius of 290m and a turn time of 20-21s at sea level (without wep = 1776 hp or 1800 PS). I don't think the AH Dora even puts out 1776 hp without WEP though. It appears to be only *climb power*, so 1580 hp (1600 PS). In that case, 2.7G at 190 mph ias gives a turn time of 21-22s. Prop efficiency is about 75%.
I tested 22.8s and 22.3s for 360 deg sustained turns at 200'.
[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: wells ]
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Hum... going on my personal experience. At 200 mph, the Dora will do a 360 degree turn in about 4 and a half minutes, with a radius of about 3 kilometers. Gets a little better with speed though.
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Originally posted by Urchin:
Hum... going on my personal experience. At 200 mph, the Dora will do a 360 degree turn in about 4 and a half minutes, with a radius of about 3 kilometers. Gets a little better with speed though.
Urch you are a little off my last test showed it at being closer to 5 minutes, and 3.5 kilometers, but then again I was doing the bext speed for turning in it. Dunno when a lanc can turna tighter circle then it who knows maybe it really is a buff? :P
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Urchin,
Hyperbole like that is why people don't take you seriously. When you make utterly rediclules statements such as these it makes people want to mock you. It sounds like a persecution complex based on the desire to feel persecuted.
I know you like LW aircraft. I know the LW planeset doesn't include the best aircraft in all roles. Tough. What it does include are some of the best, and the best, fighters in AH. The Me262A-1 is, hands down, bar none, the best fighter in the game. The Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9 and Ta152H-1 are all among the best fighters in AH. So what if the Ta152H-1 is rare in AH, you can fly one whenever you want to. What does it matter if very few other people choose to fly it? This isn't "Ta152s High".
If you post rational statements you'll be taken a lot more seriously. We know you have an agenda, but if you balance that agenda with reality you'll get a much more favorable response. We don't care if people have an agenda, almost everybody here has one, we care about people making constant side references to being victims. It gets old.
I'd suggest that you change your sig to something reasonable as the Ta152H-1 is already in AH. Having that statement in your sig makes you seem even more unreasonable. I'd suggest something useful like "Bring the Me410B-2 to AH" or "Bring the Ju188A-2 to AH".
[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Lol, Karnak. I'm sorry you took that seriously. It was a joke. I KNOW the 190's didnt turn well in real life, I don't have a problem with them not turning well in the game either.
Doras actually one of the top 3 unperked planes we have in the set, in my opinion.
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lol check his fighter scores he dont need to be told how good the planes are.
Someone aint gettin enough sleep........ :rolleyes:
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I did some extensive tests on AH D9 turning performance.
The following data is for WEP, 100% fuel, 2k alt (+/i 200 feet), the turn was flow at highest possible G-Load (2,7-2,8G, and i constantly heard the stall buzzer, so i really rode on the edge of a stall :) ), it is the maximum substained turn u can get in the AH D9. I flew multiple circle (aobut 5-7 complete 360s and timed the turns in which the alt was the most constanst.
time for 3 360° turns about 1:10.5
time for 1 180° turns about 0:23.5
turnrate is about 15,3°s
speed 208-210 mph IAS (sry not exactly but the gauge is not the best :) )
with a fellow from Hamburg i am doing some calculations on D9 turning performance, so far the following data was found:
both birds at 4230kg (or 4270kg, have to look at home for that)and at sea level
1900PS: 15,6°/s turnrate or 0:23.08 for 360° @205mph
2140PS: 16,4°/s turnrate or 0:21.95 for 360° @213mph
so far the calculations nearly complete, we try to figure out the last details, but they wont have much impact on the data we have yet.
A little addition, we compared the data with the AH D9, and from everythin we found, the bird is a 1900PS maschine, that is funny cause we should have a 2140PS MW50 D9, because the aux-tank is missing. The Aux-tank was replaced through the MW50 installation.
This is btw one of the things we try to figure out, how and which engine boost settings were actually giving what power. There is sofar a little uncertainty about the speed curves, especially if u compare em with the power development curves of the JUMO213A.
But we are working on it.
Add in: for the calculations, we relly on original FW documents, so far about 98% data are coming from them. Only for the prop efficiency we dont have original documents yet. So if anyone has em, plz drop me a private message.
[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Naudet ]
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Naudet, would you happen to have turning information like that for the 190A8 we have in Aces High?
How detailed do you get in studying these things anyway? Could you tell me how the 30mm loadout affects turning (vs. the 4x20mm loadout)?
I *THINK* the 190A8 turns slightly worse (in a sustained turning circle), but that is only because I KNOW the P-51 will outturn one given a long enough turn at around 200mph on the deck. I've never had the opportunity to get in a circle-fight with a P-51 in a Dora, but I think it would do better since it is lighter and has more horsepower than the A8 does.
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Sry Urchin so far we only did calculations on the D9, and also tests on the D9.
For this one plane it took about 4-5 month now.
But at the beginning we did a rough calculation about A8.
In normal config it was about 0.3°/s below the 1900PS D9 if i remember right.
Edit: i did very few circle fights with P51, they still have an edge over the D9. Especially when they fly under 200mph IAS. And i am by far no newbie in the D9, so turning at max degree at low speed is not that difficult for me.
[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Naudet ]
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screw it, not worth getting worked up about.
[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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Urchin,
I do fly all of those aircraft, including the Ta152 once in a while.
I agree that on the deck it is not a great fighter, but if I'm planning on being on the deck I don't fly it, I'll grab an Fw190D-9.
Why should you fly it? Because you feel like it at the time. That is why I fly it when I fly it. If you have the points to fly it, why care about its absolute power relationship to other aircraft. You fly it because you want to fly it.
You shold tell me to stop lobbying for a faster Spitfire? That's kinda funny because I'm not lobbying for a faster Spitfire. It is true that I did in the past, but I changed my opinion long ago. If a faster Spit is added as a perk plane I wouldn't cry about it, but there are many other aircraft that I would rather see.
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Naudet, S!
Nice job.
Will the data be available on a website?
:)
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I will post the data in this BB when all calculations are done.
From what i know neither my companion in Hamburg nor i feature a personal website, and so the it might not be presentet on one. Also some of the documents we use are not for use on a public website, so a site would be quite incomplete without em.
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AH FW 190 D ,, dora ,, is peace of crap
but the pilots who fly them are avesame !!! :cool:
i cant fly well dora :confused:
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The dora is a badass through and through, and I think the initial rate of turn is pretty good... combine that with a kick-ass roll rate, and it doesn't get the credit it deserves.
And by the way, could we please have just one whoopee thread that doesn't degenerate into a squeaking and whining contest about something completely unrelated to the subject at hand? For christ's sake that toejam gets old fast.
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loaded dora should have a best sustained turn rate of 19.3 dps at around 199 mph at sea level when full of gas, about a 3.2 g turn.
[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Zigrat ]
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naudet do you know the activity factor of the 190s blade? the pitch at 3/4 chord?
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Yeah, this is why I asked this question.
I've been flying the Dora alot lately, but it seems in comparison to the P-51D, that it lacks in acceleration, dive acceleration, and vertical performance to not be very good comparitively. Categories where I thought it should be at least slightly better given what I knew about the aircraft. Ie 2130 hp at 9479 lbs, versus the 1760 hp at 9600 lbs of the Mustang.
Me and Wells have been discussing this by email (well.. me asking questions and him explaining alot :) ), and he sent me alot of good technical information. I'll post it here if he doesn't mind.
But the short of it is, that the theoretical numbers he comes up with, tend to match the numbers that he gets testing the plane in AH.
So maybe I'm just getting outflown :)
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The Dora certainly climbs better, rolls better, and seems to catch the 51 after a while, but I think the 51 dives faster. Then again, I've caught 51s in a dive with a C.205 before too... :)
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Zigrat, i am the part of the team, that has to search the sources. :)
I just got the excel tables we use to calculate speed/climb. In the next step i will try to understand the way turnrate is measured.
But 3.2G@199mph@19,3 °/s is far from anything real i think.
Addition to my data.
The turnrates are for a weight of 4270kg NOT 4230kg. I checked this at home.
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I started flying the Dora more in tour 21, in tour 22 it is my prefered ride. I think it performs pretty good on high speed against a P51D. On low speed the p51D is better (200 -)
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Apar, what I'm trying to figure out is why the P-51D's are usually outflying me in the vertical, and in acceleration (or at least my perception as such), when the Dora has (or at least should have) a superior powerloading.
Thats the key question :)
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Hi Vermillion,
>Apar, what I'm trying to figure out is why the P-51D's are usually outflying me in the vertical, and in acceleration (or at least my perception as such), when the Dora has (or at least should have) a superior powerloading.
You can test acceleration quite conveniently by noting down time for an altitude interval in a stabilized climb - it's proportional to climb rate.
Try this at different speeds with both aircraft to get a good picture.
At low speed, the better power loading of the Fw 190D-9 should beat the P-51D easily. The P-51d could be better in the high-speed region at altitudes where it holds the speed advantage.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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cc Hohun, I understand that much :)
I even understand how to test induced drag in a constant G spiral dive after Wells explained it too me.
Its having the historical data to test against that is the hard part :)
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Hi Vermillion,
I've not seen any turn rate data as apparently, noone at Focke-Wulf ever was interested in turn rates :-)
Here's a historic data point from a Focke-Wulf chart:
The Fw 190D-9 climbed at 19 m/s from 2000 to 4000 m at an indicated air speed of 275 km/h at that war emergency power setting which yielded 1900 HP at sea level.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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At low speed, the better power loading of the Fw 190D-9 should beat the P-51D easily. The P-51d could be better in the high-speed region at altitudes where it holds the speed advantage.
At low speeds the P51D will beat U (especially the likes of Shane, and other good P51D pilots). Above 20k the P51D outperforms the 190d9 in AC maneuvers. At 15-20k the Dora is really good IMHO.
I had quite a few fights at 15 - 20k with P51D's and had good results in those fights. That doesn't necessarily say everything on the aircraft performance but I found out one thing for sure. If the P51D chooses to run by diving towards the deck, I've been able to slowly catch up and finish the job. Unfortunately it takes along time to do so and that I'm exposing myself to other attacks by being on the deck chasing somebody (target-fixation gets you killed, applies very often).
On dancing a 190d9 with a p51D at 15 - 20k using vertical maneuvers, I think the 190d9 is a very good match for the p51D as long as you hold a high speed. I don't try to R&D a P51D with almost same E.
Even though the P51 can engage flaps way earlier than the 190d9 it is likely that the p51d will turn too fast into blackout (where he will lose U if U're not predictable!) and he will bleed E too doing so. The main advantage comes from high roll rate which enables you to change direction in extremely fast without loosing much E. Don't go into flat turn fights, because that is not the strongest point of the Dora and it is too predictable. In general, most of my kills don't come from getting on somebody's six but from deflection shots, which U get plenty oppertunities for in the Dora too.
The only times where I get into problems against the P51D in a Dora is when I end up in a turn fight on the deck where I can't use 3 dimensions to fight (I try to avoid low and slow fights in Dora).
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Apar ]
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Apar, in those slow and low fights, i discovered that the distanse is a main issue.
If u r real close (<300 better <250) and co-speed with a P51, a lag-turn will do it. Especially if the P51 turn very tight, and u fly the "long way". It seems quite often that the P51 pilot losses track of u, cause u fell below his 6. when he than straights out to search for u, just pull hard and come up, and fill him up.
If the distnace is greater u actually can try a hard lead turn or better a fast lead high yo-yo, should normally bring u directly on his dead 6.
If
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Hi Apar,
>>At low speed, the better power loading of the Fw 190D-9 should beat the P-51D easily. The P-51d could be better in the high-speed region at altitudes where it holds the speed advantage.
>At low speeds the P51D will beat U (especially the likes of Shane, and other good P51D pilots). Above 20k the P51D outperforms the 190d9 in AC maneuvers. At 15-20k the Dora is really good IMHO.
Slight misunderstanding: I was just talking about linear acceleration or climb rate, not about tactics and manoeuvres :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)