Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Rich46yo on May 03, 2009, 03:56:40 AM
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Explain a typical WW-ll fighter encounter and the fight that happened after. I mean "actual war" encounter. Please be as descriptive/informative as possible.
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P51 sees a enemy plane, lower than himself, and maneuvers into position. Attacking out of the sun he slides down and at 200 yards rips the 109 into pieces.
109 never saw the p51.
Groupe of 190's setup for a HO pass on a formation of bombers. They rip through killing one, damaging several.
They turn and as they regroup for a second attack, several P51's swoop in out of the sun. Most of the 190's never saw the p51's. 1 190 driver did, and corkscrewed and diving to the deck evaded, eventually getting home. The attacking p51 followed him down, eventually lost sight of the 190. Was jumped and killed by a pair of 109's that he never saw because he was low slow and alone.
4 F4f's take off from a Aircraft carrier, climbing up for CAP patrol. Less than 10 miles from the carrier 2 A6m's slipped out of a cloud, and right in behind the F4f's. Eyewitness driving a Cat working on an airfield said "it was all over in 10 seconds, them poor navy boys never had a chance" A6m's close to point blank range from their low 6, in their blind spot, cut them to shreds with cannons, then slipped back into a cloud and disappeared.
BTW on the last, eyewitness was my Uncle, wounded at Tarawa, and again more severely on Saipan.
He would never confirm but I suspect the location was Guadalcanal.
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never saw...never saw...never saw
That is a constant refraim with most WWII kills. I suspect the differences between what worked well in WWII and what works well in AHII are due almost entirely to the presence of icons. You are actually very likely to see that bandit at 1.5K and closing fast on your six, as opposed to the WWII condition, where you would very unlikely to detect it. Not that I'm complaining mind you, I can't see any practical way to dispense with icons, and I don't think we'd *want* an arena where the victim never saw the attacker 80% of the time.
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Even with icons, most of the guys shot down in a furball never saw they plane that got them. Situational Awareness is equally important in Aces High. You can still set up and execute the perfect bounce using the same methods used since WWI. Use the sun, approach from their low 6, take advantage of their target fixation, etc.
My regards,
Widewing
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That is a constant refraim with most WWII kills. I suspect the differences between what worked well in WWII and what works well in AHII are due almost entirely to the presence of icons. You are actually very likely to see that bandit at 1.5K and closing fast on your six, as opposed to the WWII condition, where you would very unlikely to detect it. Not that I'm complaining mind you, I can't see any practical way to dispense with icons, and I don't think we'd *want* an arena where the victim never saw the attacker 80% of the time.
There's a few Il-2 servers with no-icons. You are more often bounced by friendlies instead of enemies, so I stay away from those.
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There's a few Il-2 servers with no-icons. You are more often bounced by friendlies instead of enemies, so I stay away from those.
QFT I tried one of those servers, then got banned for team-killing because I couldn't tell the difference between a 190 and a jug when I bounced them. Needless to say, there were only around six people on that server. :rolleyes:
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So what altitude did most fights actually occurr?
Having the most altitude was super important was it not? And I always wondered how wing men stayed with their partners during all those violent manuevers.
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So what altitude did most fights actually occurr?
Having the most altitude was super important was it not? And I always wondered how wing men stayed with their partners during all those violent manuevers.
Altitude depends on the theater of war. For example, in the ETO, the strategic bombing campaign determined where the fights generally began; at the altitude where the bombers flew. On the eastern front it was generally a tactical air war, thus the fights were generally much lower. In general though, all prolonged fights would end up at low altitude.
As to wingmen following their lead... Try this: Go to the TA and tack on to one guy chasing and fighting another. You will find that it is relatively easy to stay with the fight. The hardest working guy is the defender, the attacker doesn't have to work as hard. The wingman merely follows in an easy to maintain lag pursuit. Should the enemy get loose, he simply drops in.
My regards,
Widewing
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Explain a typical WW-ll fighter encounter and the fight that happened after. I mean "actual war" encounter. Please be as descriptive/informative as possible.
The following is not "typical." As others have noted, typically the dead guy never saw his killer. But this account is closer to what we see in AH2
- oldman
From JG 26 - Top Guns of the Luftwaffe, by Donald L. Caldwell (Ivy Books, New York 1991), ISBN 0-8041-1050-6 (First Ballentine Edition, June 1993), at page 276:
[The following occurred on the afternoon of September 17, 1944 - the first day of Operation Market-Garden]:
The Third Gruppe [of JG26] also fought a battle with Mustangs, with ruinous consequences for itself. In mid-afternoon, Major Mietusch assembled about fifteen Bf 109s of his scattered command and headed for the landing zones, climbing all the way. The weather had taken a turn for the worse, and there was a continuous layer of thin cloud at 15,000 feet. The Germans climbed through it, and then, while above the Dutch-German border, Mietusch spotted a squadron of P-51s below them. He radioed, “Otter Mietusch, I am attacking!” and dove through the cloud. His first burst of fire destroyed the Number 4 plane of the trailing cover flight. Oblt. Schild hit the Number 2 Mustang’s drop tank, and it dove away trailing a solid sheet of flame. The events of the next few minutes are best stated in the words of the leader of that P-51 flight, Lt. William Beyer of the 361st Fighter Group’s 376th Squadron:
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I was the flight leader at the tail end of the squadron. We had flown back and forth between checkpoints for a couple of hours. My wingmen apparently got tired of looking around for enemy aircraft. Only by the grace of God did I happen to look behind us at that particular moment, because in no more than a couple of seconds the enemy would have shot the whole flight down.
I saw about fifteen German fighters closing fast with all their guns firing. I immediately broke 180 degrees and called out the enemy attack. My Number 4 man went down in flames, and my wingman got hit and spun out. I headed straight back into the German fighters and went through the whole group, just about in the center of them. We were separated by only a few feet...
I immediately made another 180-degree turn, picked out one of them, and started to chase it. The rest of the fighters zoomed back up into the clouds and disappeared. We made many violent high-G maneuvers with wide open throttle. When I started to close and fire, I noticed that his plane seemed to have stopped in the air. I had to decide whether to shoot and run, or to try to stop my plane. I cut throttle, lowered flaps, and dropped my wheels - I still kept closing. I had to fishtail and do flat weaves to stay behind him. This maneuver was repeated three times, and on one occasion I almost cut his tail off, we were so close...
Then we started into steep dives. The last one was at around 1,000 feet with flaps down. This last maneuver was deadly and nerve-racking. He went straight down toward the ground, hoping I couldn’t pull out. If I pulled out early, he could have come in behind me, so I stayed with him. If we had had our wheels down when we pulled out, we would have been on the ground.
It was after this pullout that I finally was able to get my sights lined up and fire at him. I must have hit him with the first burst, because he kept turning and went into the ground and broke up. Knowing the caliber of this German pilot, I am sure that if I had taken the time to get off some shots when he was slowing down he could have possibly shot me down or made a getaway. My other combat victories were not nearly as spectacular as this one, and it is with this in mind that I can recall it so vividly.
* * *
Lt Beyer’s victim was Klaus Mietusch. Mietusch was one of the most fascinating individuals in the Geschwader’s history. He was a career officer, had joined the Geschwader in 1938, and was its senior pilot in length of service when he died at age twenty-five. His early combat career was marked by a seemingly endless series of failures and frustrations. A member of the successful 7th Staffel under Muencheberg, he did not come into his own until he succeeded to the command and led it on detached assignment in Russia in 1943. He was the opposite of the typical extroverted, self-confident fighter pilot. He compensated for what he believed to be his lack of ability by an act of will. According to Priller, Mietusch’s combat motto was, “Bore in, until the enemy is as large as a barn door in your sights.” Again quoting Priller, duty as Mietusch’s wingman was an “unforgettable experience.” Mietusch was shot down ten times and was wounded at least four times. He was said never to have turned down a mission, and he had logged an incredible 452 combat sorties at the time of his death. His seventy-two victories brought the award of the Oak Leaves to his Knights’s Cross, two months after his death.
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Thanks for the replies fellas. Oldman, and extraordinary story. :salute
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"never saw...never saw...never saw"
Once we were playing on Karelia map with icons off and I noticed that when the skin of the a/c is properly coloured to blend with the ground colours it is very very hard to see planes creeping towards you from low six, even if you try to take a peek all the time and there are people around telling that there is an enemy somewhere. Compared to RL spotting enemies in this game is made very easy with icons and all.
With more clouds (+other weather effects) and icons appearing only after you had kept your view on the target for a while would change this quite a bit.
-C+
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Keep in mind "Never saw" doesn't mean "was flying straight and level on cruise settings" either. As Widewing points out, it means not seeing your attacker for many reasons. I rcall Bob Doe's description of his first kill. He went after a Bf110 and after crippling it, followed it down a bit, stunned that he had done it, then pulled away and as he pulled away there was the thud-thud-thud-thud of cannons being fired going bast his Spit and a hail of 20mm where he'd been a moment before. A second Bf110 had come within a second of killing him and only a chance manuever saved him and doomed the Bf110 as he chased it down and killed it. He didn't see his attacker, but was not in level flight as in Oldman's descriptions. Both are typical.
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I do admit the icons are a bit much...If they were off on ALL sides you would have to take a careful look and a close pass at the plane in order to identify it, this would also include more wingman tactics. I'd spend a bit of time in an arena with no icons for sure.
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I do admit the icons are a bit much...If they were off on ALL sides you would have to take a careful look and a close pass at the plane in order to identify it, this would also include more wingman tactics. I'd spend a bit of time in an arena with no icons for sure.
Also, take into account that his could only be useful for added immersion in the AvA/ SEA arenas due to the fact that every country have all planes enabled. This isn't Allies vs Germany, Russia vs Germany, Allies vs IJN so it's not like you're going to be able to identify different countries planes from the plane types where as in the SEA it would be a added immersion since you'll be looking for the other countries plane markings.
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Also that you wouldn't have a proper representation of vision without using a lot of zoom. Even within 3-400 yds on my 22" monitor it can be difficult to identify aircraft at some angles, and nearly impossible to see roundels.
Losing icons wouldn't really change gameplay much, beside that you'd get picked more often.
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From what flying I've done in light planes, I would say that other airplanes are not that hard to see and identify at long ranges...ONCE you find them. The problem is that there is just soooooooo much sky to cover. How to simulate that effect on a 22" screen will always be problematic.
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Painted white or other eye friendly colours civilian a/c really are easy to see once you find them. But what if they would be painted green/gray/brown and you would be trying to see them against ground.
From what I have read usually the only indication of a distant low flying plane was a sudden glimmer of sun's reflection from some surface. And matte paint does not prevent that, from long ranges all paint jobs reflect nearly the same.
-C+
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I do admit the icons are a bit much...If they were off on ALL sides you would have to take a careful look and a close pass at the plane in order to identify it, this would also include more wingman tactics. I'd spend a bit of time in an arena with no icons for sure.
How about an icon system where you have to look at a vehicle for the icon to fade in, and after a certain amount of time without looking at it, the icon fades out?
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moin
here is something diverent. a story from the ruhrkessel.
...Der Gegner wich fluchtartig zurück.Die Höhe wurde erreicht,und als Otto Carius einen US-Panzer sichtete,der in wilder Flucht hinter einem Haus verschwand und sich dahinter sicher wähnte,ließ er das Haus anrichten und mit Verzögerung schießen.Bereits nach dem zweiten Schuß wurde die ungeheuere Durchschlagskraft der 12,8-cm-Kanone unter Beweis gestellt,denn der US-Panzer brannte vollständig aus....
i try to translate...
The enemy stepped back hastily. The height was reached, and when Otto Carius sighted an US tank which disappeared in wild escape behind a house and looked sure behind it, he tells his gunner to arrange the house and shoot with delay. Already after the second shot the immense penetrating power of the 12.8-cm cannon was proved, because the US tank burnt out completely......
cu chris3
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A yellow crop duster can easily be seen 2 miles out as being yellow, a plane, and if its biplane or single wing. Probably could tell if its a low wing, or high wing cabin type.
Something in camo, that slips along not doing big banked turns, could easily be within 1/4 mile before you could track it due to engine noise. And that's assuming your standing on the ground. It would be a lot tougher in a plane.
Until we have systems that can show us our full peripheral range of movement detection (some 160-170 degrees in most people) Icons will remain a vital necessity.
However, that is not to say that a new icon option would not be worth exploring.
Consider a new arena, where the only thing an icon shows is country. So you have a very small bishop, knight, or rook icon.
No distance, no name, no plane type. Icons show at 3k (same icon setting as current FSO) and if your not looking in the right direction you won't see it. No big neon sign saying "here I come".
The problem is, even if we had this arena, and this setup. What is it going to do to gameplay?
You'd see a lot more cherry picks, a lot more hording (at the least wingman tactics) more HO attacks.
We would probably all be finding WWII silhouette images to study so we would have a better chance of figuring out what we were up against.
Winning would be less about ACM, and flying, and more about approaching unknown bogeys.
Then when that bogey that you stalked for 2 sectors gets killed by some 2 weeker who cares less. Whats going to happen?
Do you see how any of this, however interesting it may be, is good for gameplay as we know it?
Cause frankly I can't see how it will fly.
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Consider a new arena, where the only thing an icon shows is country. So you have a very small bishop, knight, or rook icon.
No distance, no name, no plane type. Icons show at 3k (same icon setting as current FSO) and if your not looking in the right direction you won't see it. No big neon sign saying "here I come".
I like that idea. I like it a lot.
You fix it up, Ghosth, we'll try it in AvA!
- oldman
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Painted white or other eye friendly colours civilian a/c really are easy to see once you find them. But what if they would be painted green/gray/brown and you would be trying to see them against ground.
Camouflage really requires the object be close to something to break up its outline to work well. Perhaps it will work well NOE, but even a rather dull airplane below and a few thousand feet from the background the shape can be made out because of the, don't know the word here, "three dimensionality". It can be compared to a green lizard on a pool table....you might miss him at a glance, but if you look directly at him or he moves, you can make him out easily.
As far as gameplay goes, I may get flamed for this, but guys, I can't quite see the good of making other airplanes harder to see. I think most of us are more interested in the 20% of the time when a maneuvering fight *did* develop.