Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Nashwan on October 29, 2000, 04:17:00 AM
-
I often see the Bearcat touted as the ultimate fighter built during WW2, but the performance figures I've been able to find don't look that special.
For instance I once read that the plane climbed so well pilots were liable to get the bends from the drop in pressure, yet the climbrates I've seen are around 4500 fpm, which isn't that good by the standards of other late war planes.
Can someone post the actuall figures and give me an idea of why the plane was so good?
-
It was the first US fighter that could actually climb faster than a housebrick with a helium-filled party balloon attached to it, thats why. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Nash: 4.5k/m is better than the G10, which is the current best grabber up to 25k.
------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
-
382mph at S/L, 421mph at 19,700ft. Obviously the Bearcat is a low-altitude fighter. It would match the Me 109G-10 in climb at low altitudes, but the Messerschmitt would become superior as altitude increased.
Really fast climbrate is a Spit 9 with "Basta". Over 5500fpm... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Dont Forget the Bearcat was inspired from the late FW 190 !!!!!!!!
-
yeah minus just like a new Corvette was inspired by the Model T Ford. The difference between a 190 and a Bearcat is infinitely greater than the difference between a Hellcat and a Bearcat. On the one hand you have one offhand statement by one engineer and on the other you have the actual planes to look at. You can see the clear evolution of the Hellcat in the Bearcat.
The Bearcat would be our best low to mid (everything in AH) fighter. 300 of them were issued and in service (on carriers) before the end of the war. If the U.S. were doing as badly as the LW was for most of the war then they would have had to have been issued a year earlier and, being straffed at their airbases or carriers....."seen combat".
A 190 pilot being met with the "dawn soopreeze" from carrier based Bearcats would take very little comfort in the fact that an engineer had given a nod to the 190.
lazs
[This message has been edited by -lazs- (edited 10-29-2000).]
-
sory man but is it 100% sure bearcat was created after the 190 capture studies yes is it a evolution but the inspiration come from 190
-
Bearcat copied or inspired by a FW?
Oh brother................
check out this link and see what was so special about ALL the Grumman birds: http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Grumman.html (http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Grumman.html)
Can't ya just see the Spit pilots faces when the Hellcat hits the arena? Read that part about the F6F turning with the Spits...uh oh.......salivating already........ (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) !!!
[This message has been edited by eddiek (edited 10-29-2000).]
[This message has been edited by eddiek (edited 10-29-2000).]
-
Hi
Actually all that about the Bearcat being based on the 190 is true. A Grumman designer who was reviewing one of the captured A5s was so impressed he said something like this,
" if we put an R2800 in that thing we would have a world beater", and the Bearcat was born. Anyway(here goes one of GRUNHERZ's useless pilots accounts) the Bearcat was one hell of a plane. For example late in 1945 one of the Bearcat squadrons was flying around the west coast and they met up with a group of P38s at some airfield. They bet the Bearcat could take off, raise gear and loop all before the 38s wheels rose off the runway. Well the bearcat guys won the bet and the guy actually did 2 loops before the 38 was airborne.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
lol. How do you manage to still do this? Take a "comment" and draw the conclusion
from the comment, " if we put an R2800 in that thing we would have a world beater", that the F8F was based on the 190?
You are so star struck by anything flown by the Luftwaffe it's literally hysterical. Yes Grumman test pilot flew the captured 190 in Britain. But if you see the FW-190-A5 as the daddy of the F8F then the FW-190 was itself a copy of the F4F and F6F.
Here: This you can see <cough> (snicker) <cough> the resemblance toi the 190-A (it's in there somewhere. trust me. Even Grunherz implied it!):
(http://www.compass.dircon.co.uk/F8F.jpg)
The F8F was designed as a shipboard air superiority fighter/interceptor. The habit was to install the most powerful engine on new designs, not the other way around. "When planning a replacement for their successful F6F Hellcat carrier fighter Grumman chose to build as lightweight a design as possible around the most reliable large radial engine." and "The Bearcat was designed as an interceptor fighter, with emphasis placed on excellent maneuverability, good low-level performance, and a high rate of climb. It used the same engine as it's predecessor the Hellcat, but being smaller and 20% lighter, had a 30% better climb rate than the Hellcat. It's first flight was in August 1944, and while the first squadron of Bearcats was heading for the Pacific, the war ended before this excellent fighter could see operational use."
This habit of seeing in everything some German engineering is getting old. As well as the habit of thinking every the Germans had was the best, the fastest and most advance.
-Westy
-
Nashwan:
It hasn't been mentioned yet so I will. The bearcat was a very maneuverable aircraft. Excellent speed, climb and quick turning make should make it a nasty arena plane.
Hooligan
-
Westy said
> Here: This you can see <cough> (snicker) <cough> the resemblance to the 190-A>
>(it's in there somewhere. trust me. Even Grunherz implied it!):
I see more Macchi M.C.200 there than FW 190. :-)
------------------
M.C.202
Dino in Reno
-
.
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 10-29-2000).]
-
Hi
Westy IIRC the story goes something like this. The grumman designer flew the 190 and was very impressed with its general flying abilities. He did say " if we put an R2800 in in this thing we would have a world beater". Then he went back to US and started working on getting the bearcat designed. I dont understand why you are so defensive on this point, thats just what happend. Again I didnt say it the gruman designer did. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
Grunherz, this is what you said, "Actually all that about the Bearcat being based on the 190 is true."
Well, you were wrong. And the whole point of my post was to show evidence and facts to the contrary.
-Westy
-
Well, I read on a cocktail napkin once that the Saturn V was based on the JU-52.
-
Testy.
Your picture was way more informative then your blab. Obviosly the plane does not even resemble a 190. The rest of your tiresome crap just obscured that.
-
HI
Westy, maybe my saying "based" was too strong a word for the touchy attitude in here, "strongly influenced by" would have been better. Read this over and please say that it wasnt influenced by the 190 design.
1) The cheif designer responsible for the Bearcat goes to England and test flies the 190, and is very impressed. He says " If we put an R2800 in this thing we would have a world beater"
2) He goes back to the US, and lobbies at Grumman to have the plane designed. This means there was no specific company policy or requirement for a Bearcat type plane.
3) The plane is built and first flies August 44, just by coincidence it happends to be within inches of the 190 in every major dimensions.
So the cheif designer of Bearcat is greatly impressed by 190, says it would be best figher if it had R2800, then goes to USA, lobbies himslef to design a plane with dimensions almost exactly that of 190 with an R2800, and builds the plane. Of course it wont look like 190 hes a Grumman dsigner and he incorporatded traditional Grumman design ques. But to say that the Bearcat design wasnt directly influenced by the 190 is simply ignoring the facts and the designers own actions and words. If you cant accept that Westy, I dont think there is any use to discuss anything any more with you.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
"If you cant accept that Westy, I dont think there is any use to discuss anything any more with you."
Fine with me. End of discussion.
-Westy
-
Westy, the F8F probably was "inspired by" the FW190. Hell, the 190 was a revolutionary aircraft, and many a/c that followed took inspiration from it. However, it is equally true that the F8F was inspired by the idea of improving upon, and lightening, the F6F to create an aircraft that had incredible performance.
PS - Whoever asked what made the F8F so outstanding should consider the following three things: 1) It could outaccelerate virtually anything under 20K; 2) It could outclimb any WW2-era aircraft I know of up to 10K (and perhaps 20K, not sure tho); 3) Look at that visibility!! And I'll betcha it had a humpin' rollrate. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 10-29-2000).]
-
http://rwebs.net/ghostsqd/f8f.htm (http://rwebs.net/ghostsqd/f8f.htm)
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Grumman.html (http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Grumman.html)
------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
-
Blah.. just put it in and thats it, there isn't any hope for historically accurate game anyway anymore; so no loss.
-
Getting back to the original point of this thread:
The F8F would be uber for this reason:
In AH, a lot of people already call the N1K2 "uber". Compared to the N1K2, the F8F is 50 MPH faster, accelerates a LOT better, turns at least as well (maybe better), and has 1000 FPM more climbrate.
If the N1K2 is good enough for people to call it "uber", then the F8F would be
"The Incredible ungodly kill-all emperor superfighter of certain death"
Yes, the F8F rocks.
J_A_B
-
I love the bearcat. It looks so awesome and was such a fantastic design. I would not mind having it as a perk. IMHO it is one of teh most beautiful american ww2 designs.
-
The Grumman F6F Hellcat entered service with the US Navy in late 1943 and had proved itself more than a match for Japan's A6M Zero. The Navy realized, however, that an even higher performance design would eventually be needed to replace the Hellcat.
Curtiss and Boeing each submitted designs, designated the XF14C and XF7B respectively, both of which were much larger and heavier than the Hellcat. The Curtiss design was to be powered by a new Lycoming XH-2740-4 24-cylinder, liquid cooled engine, initially rated at 2,200 hp, but the engine was not produced. A Wright R-3350-16 of 2,300 hp with turbo-supercharger was then fitted in the XF14C-2. Empty weight of the Curtiss was over 10,500 pounds. The Boeing XF8B-1 was powered by a Pratt & Whitney XR-4360-10 28-cylinder, four-row radial 3,000 hp, then the worldâs largest aircraft engine, and was even heavier, with an empty weight of over 14,000 lbs.
Grumman, however, favored a lighter and more maneuverable design, more like the German Focke Wulf 190 -- a captured example having been flown by Grumman test pilot Bob Hall in England. The resulting Grumman design, the XF8F-1, weighed only 7,017 pounds empty and was sometimes described as the smallest airframe built around the most powerful, fully developed engine, a real "hot-rod."
from this page (http://nasaui.ited.uidaho.edu/nasaspark/safety/f8f/f8findex.html).
It's highly unlikely there was any design influence, it's more in the concept of the plane. Ie: Small airframe with a 2000HP radial in it. Rather than something like the similarly performing F2G with that triple-row monster radial engine.
-
Hi
WOW thanks juzz thats exactly all I was trying to point out that the Bearcat was influenced by the overall concept of the 190, becuse of the guys positive impression of the FW.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
Don'tcha just love this circumstantial evidence bull crap?
-
The Bearcat is a DIRECT DESENDENT of the FW190.
-
Hi
Jigster what exactly is so wrong with the fact that the 190 inflenced Grumman in the design of their next fighter. All airforces are influenced by others planes, are you also pissed off that the F86 was redesigned with German swept wing technology? Really guys it hapends all the time I just dont understand why some of you are so personally offended when someone points this out.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
The bearcat is a much better airplane than the 190 ever was
-
At least the Focke Wulf's wings weren't designed to fall off... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
there isn't any hope for historically accurate game anyway anymore
And you've only just worked that out Fishu?
Man, you must be slower than I thought (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"Something wonderful had better happen damn soon"!
-
Bring it in, and let the other Korean-War planes follow (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
Maik
-
The Bearcat would be our best low to mid (everything in AH) fighter
I don't know Laz. While I agree that the Bearcat is a very capable and deadly aircraft, I can think of at least two, and maybe three that would give it a run for its money.
1.) F2G Super Corsair
and
2.) Yak3(vk107)
The Yak3 is definitely the fastest overall (around 450mph from memory), but I would have to check its SL speed to be sure. But like all Russian fighters it fights best down low like the Bearcat.
Actually I would have to check the numbers, but I believe a La7 would also perform very similarly to the Bearcat (420 max, 380 SL, and goodclimb rates).
If I had to personally choose between all these fighters, I think I would have to go with the F2G Super Corsair. You just can't beat 3,000+ horsepower down low, with the ruggedness of a radial and the classic Corsair airframe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
geeze.... The only thing about the Bearcat that is 190 like is some of the dimensions. EVERY aspect of the Bearcat is a direct evolutionalry change from othe U.S. aircraft and as the picture shows... A direct copy of the Hellcat in most features. Name one feature that is copied from the 190. The Bearcat is far superior to the 190 in every way.
Verm... Hmmm... Them soviet planes would be good if they performed like the engineers claim but... Looking at "Soviet AC of the 2nd WW" shows that they rarely (never) did.
The Bearcat shout have better sustained turn in any case... Better durability and reliability and, the Bearcat did perform well at high alts. It still had the excellent PW supercharger system.
lazs
-
"At least the Focke Wulf's wings weren't designed to fall off... "
"Wingtips" ya knuckle head. Yet more "dis-information" from the Axis gallery. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
-
Gents,
Some interesting reading on the F8F-1 and F4U's in it's deployment together.
Dondald D. Engin, former Deputy commander and Cheif of the U.S. Atlantic Fleet, Captain of the Aircraft carrier U.S.S. America as well as a combat pilot in WW2 and Korea writes in his book "Wings and Warriors my life as a naval aviator"
Quote
I do not recall who threw down the Gauntlet for a Commanding officer versus a Commanding officer Dogfight-from-takeoff showdown, but the idea caught on like wildfire. Each agreed to the combat, and the rules were set so the Lindsay in his F4U-1D and Joe Smith in his F8F-1 would line upon the runway at NAAS Santa Rosa and on a given signal release brakes: the first one on the others tail would win. The VBF-19 crew waxed Lindsay's old F4U-1D until the chippped, worn paint and aluminum skin shined, and they prepped the engine for all the power it could give. Smith's crew were a little more confident with their brand new and powerful airplane.
On the appointed day all hands from both squadrons lined both sides of the runway as each commanding officer taxied his A/C to stop with both wheels exactly on a broad white line painted across the runway for that purpose. Smiths Bearcat with it's R-2800-34W engine, was on the right. His engine purred and popped and sounded downright awesome. Lindsay's Corsair, with it's much older and tired R-2800-8W, was on the left. His engine was leaking a little oil as he sat on the starting line, but it ran smoothly, and the three-bladded-prop just ticked over waiting to respond. On signal, both pilots released their brakes and jammed on full power. The Bearcat slewed to the right and seemed to jump twice before leaping into the air sideways, as Smith retracted the landing gear to hold the airplane low on the runwayand accellerated. Lindsay's Corsair was slower accelllerating . He moved down the Runway at almost the same speed but with his wheels on the ground. Initially wing tip to wing tip, they slowly seperated as they tore down the runway, until Lindsay sucked up his landing gear, dropped 10Degrees of landing flaps, turned 30degrees to the left of the Runway heading, then snapped the F4U around to the right with his right wingtip just inches from the ground, and fell victoriously on the tail of Smith's F8F. They disappeared over the horizon at less than 100ft, and Lindsay had won.
End quote
Reportedly the F8F pilot jumped from his cockpit screaming that the F4U was overmodeled and no way it should do that.
Saying quote "He flying a F#$@ UFO!!"
Sadly Donald Engin who was the also the Curator of the National Air and Space Museum until this past year when he was killed in a glider accident. So many of our Hero's have fallen. However his book is the best account of the trasition of Naval airpower from the F6F to the F4 Phantom I have read with some great stories about the F6F, F4U, F7F, FJ-3, F8-Crusader and others.
Later
F4UDOA
BTW. the story of the Dogfight was during WW2. April 1st 1945 to be exact. So the F8F did see combat after all.
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 10-30-2000).]
-
Laz, I think its just a matter of perspective.
If you think that all US aircraft off the production line performed up to the prototype specs, that are used in AH (and other games for that matter) for FM's, your fooling yourself.
Its just that the Soviets were the only country to look at another class of flight data.
Regardless of the Soviet stuff, you think the Bearcat is superior to the F2G as well?
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
Hi
Lets see how ill get into trouble with this one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The F2G was actually a bit slower than the F4U4 at most alts and sometimes up to 40mph slower. Its best feature was a very high climbrate. Basically it seems that the Corsair wasnt willing to go much faster than 450mph or so as a combat plane, and the added power went into making it climb faster. I do think the Bearcat would be beter than the F2G it would fly circles around the heavier plane, it had almost the same climb rate, and it could be faster at many alts, plus it would definatly outurn it.But the F2G was pretty damn cool. It was apperently cancled because the Bearcat fulfilled its primary requirement of very high climb rate.
This is from a detailed Corsair book covering all the variants from prototype to various postwar developments, I think it was called corsair in detail and in scale, but ill check that again if you guys want me to.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
Just to re-coup the facts from the above:
Grunherz/minus claim 190 to be the daddy of F8F based on 1 (one) phrase: " if we put an R2800 in that thing we would have a world beater"
How can you read out of this "we copy this sucker, shove 2800 in it, redesign airframe to suit carrier ops, use diff airfoil, armaments, make it look so that no-one (but those two guys 60 years in the future) would ever suspect 190 lineage - and voila, we will have a world beater" is kinda beyond me.
Hmmm... Look - it turns out that "Grumman designer" never flew the darn 190 anyway (designers rarely do flying bits) - it was a test pilot (they don't normally do design leave alone a concept for a new plane - surprise-surprise!) and all he said was that 190 would be even better performing fighter had it had more powerful radial (ie 2800) in it... Duh...
------------------
lynx
13 Sqn RAF
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 10-30-2000).]
-
Most aircraft are evolutionary rather than revolutionary. All designers take effective ideas from every other designer (within the realm of possibility).
Think of it as having a big pile of parts in the middle of the room, and everyone is told to make a plane out of it. Likely you will have several planes, but no two would look exactly alike. They would be similar enough in appearance to argue the technology had been shared, and that is exactly the case here.
The F8F was a completely original design inspired not only by the Fw190, but several other aircraft extant. To say that the creation of the F8F is totally the result of any one plane is ludicrous. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
sems some people have realy problem asume the reality :--))))
i know many of u prefer style Top gun literature where the Hero come and beat the half world :-))))))))
anyway is it rare but is many books from WW2 pilots who not sing the glory on all pages about himself check P closterman Big Circus
if ex Spit after Tempst pilot say the 190 was a real danger that mean maybe is it realy true
what u thing what make the acrobatic planes roll so well ? ??????????
1 is sure the not use spit stil wings ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Hi
Lynx the point is there was no official Grumman policy or Navy requirement that the next high performace navy carrier fighter be a compact and relatively light design. The trend and expectations were for larger and heavier designs, as the hellcat and corsair were. When the Grumman test pilot flew the 190 and liked its performance abilities, that pointed Grumman into the direction of designing the Bearcat as a plane very much in the class of the 190, small, close coupled surfaces, nearly identical length, wingspan, same weight class, and with a very powerful engine. Again it just seems some of you fellas are just personally insulted at the very mention of the Bearcat being influenced by the overall design of he 190, what in the hell is so wrong with that? And of course it wasnt a direct copy of the 190, nobody ever said anything like that, tho lots of you guys imediatly jumped to that conclusion, and in fact your whole argument to the contrary was based on the obvious fact that the Bearcat doesnt look like a copy of the 190, clever huh? And yes the Bearcat is much better than the 190, why wouldnt it be? Would it make you guys feel better to know there is a very good chance that the 190 was itself strongly influenced by a certain prewar US airplane, can you guess which one that might be?
thanks GRUNHERZ
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 10-30-2000).]
-
The F8F was influenced by the FW-190. Several of the successful features of the FW was incorporated into the F8F.
That is similar to the P-51 being influenced, in part, by the Bf-109.
However, the F8F was also influenced by the F6F (its "parent"), the Zero, and plenty of other aircraft, as well as by what Grumman felt a warplane required. It was very much an evolution of a concept, rather than a copy of a specific plane.
It was intended to be an interceptor. Hence the high rate of acceleration and climb, and sterling turning ability.
Like the FW-190, the F8F uses a large radial engine in a small airframe. They are similar size because that is about the smallest practical airframe possible with the given engines. The small size of the F8F was an added plus because it allowed the F8F to operate off of the small escort carriers--thus finally dispensing with the need for the obsolete FM2's.
Saying the F8F is directly derived from the FW-190 is about as silly as claiming that the FW-190 is derived from GeeBee racers. It was an evolution of the same concept. It is only natural that planes derived from the same basic concept would be similar in many ways.
The comment made by the Grumman test pilot wasn't admitting that Grumman "copied" the German plane; it was a validation of the concept of high horsepower mated with minimal weight.
J_A_B
-
Wasnt the GeeBee but it was a prewar US racer. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
There's nothing special about the Bearcat.
It should be modeled in AH at some later date just as an extra Allied ride.
No need to perk it...it's no threat to anything except a gooney anyway.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BTW, you luftloonies will argue anything won't you? How long till you claim the Nazi's invented the internet?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
It is utterly stupid to use one statement to prove one plane is based on another.
Maybe if the Grumman team had brought a Fw back, took it apart piece by piece (which some companies did after Wright Field allowed it) then, perhaps that one statement might be appropriate.
It's like saying the F6F is based on the P-47. Same dimensions, same weight class, same power plant. P-47 prototype flew first. But oh wait, thats right, they were being designed at the same time, under seperate contracts with the Navy and Airforce.
- Jig
-
Verm... No, I do not think that pre production planes lived up their production counterparts in every case but..... The Soviet planes were the furthest off of any I have seen. Perhaps it was the political climate or the fact that production methods were crude or that materials were short and untested (plywwod etc.) or that much of the labor was unskilled and the engines were so unrefined or, maybe a bit of all those things. In any case... every Soviet production fighter was a huge disapointment with nary a one comming close to it's pre production or design hopes. Other nations had simular disapointments but not nearly so blatant.
F2G Vs Bearcat? Apples and oranges. F2G would outclimb anything in the game but not be exceptionally fast nor manueveable. Bearcat and -4 Corsair is more interesting.... -4 should climb 4,000 fpm or so... Turn with a Hellcat and Spit 9 with a notch of flaps.. Accelerate with the best of em and be a tank. The -4 had a top speed of between 450-460 depending on who you read and should be able to disengage from the Bearcat in a dive and then from the level. Both planes would be very useful in AH.
Oh... Germany didn't even have a radial AC engine till they copie... er, "were influenced by" the Pratt. Planes like the Curtis Hawk and P36 pre-dated the 190.
lazs
-
Toad u sux the stile propaganda and Argumetns remind me some 1 from history
why HTC not made a 1 areno only for US planes so they can Narcism each other
and anyway made in USA is not at all ,,is the best ,, so go a way and dont call any LW fan Nazi even with smile !
in EU u cant call some 1 nazi !~
-
minus, I think I speak for all the english speaking folk on this board when I say...
WHAT?
I think you need to take an english course. I can never tell what the heck you are saying. You'd be better off to post in your native language and include a link to one of the translation engines I think.
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
- Steve Earl
-
Well, thats a bit harsh Lepturn. If you spend a few minutes, you can get the general idea, although I think he misunderstood the post he replied to. He's saying that Toad's post sounded like propaganda, and that not all good planes are US. Then he says that maybe HTC should have an arena with only US planes so they can admire each other. Lastly he says that Toad shouldn't use the word Nazis....here i think he misinterpreted Toad's use of the word.
Anyways.....thats the general idea.
*these ideas do not necessarily represent the views of LJK Raubvogel* (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
-
geeze... if ya understand the guy it's even worse. I say let him continue to post in babbel. What happens in "eur" if you call sum 1 a nazi anyhow? Do they hang you or something? Guess it's an even bigger crime than posting aircraft data that isn't in "secret weapons of the LW".
lazs
-
well why not Nazi i Dont like if some say i have soemthing to due with nazism becose i am a Lw plane fan
-
WReeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeNCH!
Back to the topic of this thread, and away from personal attacks back and forth, what is so special about the bearcat are these minor things:
She's BLUE!!!!!!
She's NAVY!!!!!!
Need there be anything else? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hamish!
-
Hi
Jigster are you really unable to overcome your prejudices to such an extent? The guy was impressed with the 190, said he love to see this plane with an R2800 and thinks it would be the best fighter, then right after his return to US Grumman begins work on an entirely new design which just happends to match the 190 almost exactly for length, wingspan, and weight and is powered by R2800. It is by no means a copy of the 190, but is it really so difficult to see the connection and overall simmilarty in the concept of the planes. The intent was not to copy the 190 bolt for bolt but Grumman was definatly influenced by 190s overall design ethic. And I still dont undestand why some of you take all this as some personal insult to yourselves, the US or the Bearcat.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
GRUNHERZ said:
> Wasnt the GeeBee but it was a prewar US racer.
Umm, Hughes Racer? Nice looking bird.
But I think that you are reading too much ino a "flip" statement by that Pilot/desginer.
> Minus
> Dont Forget the Bearcat was inspired from the late FW 190 !!!!!!!!
> minus
sory man but is it 100% sure bearcat was created after the 190 capture studies yes
> is it a evolution but the inspiration come from 190
(not GRUNHERZ's quotes)
There is a big jump from influenced to inspired. All fighters are influenced by other aircraft, but few inspire others.
------------------
M.C.202
Dino in Reno
-
The reference to "Nazi" in that sentence is a historical reference to the Party ruling Germany at the time of the development of these aircraft. It is a play (joke) on the "Al Gore invented the internet" joke that is going around. Substitute "Nazi" for "Gore".
It is inconceiveable to me that someone could confuse that statement so badly that they would think I am calling any one here on this board a "Nazi". It's not my style and most know that.
However, I also understand that English is not the primary language of many of the posters (whose English is better than my poor attempts at their language). So, perhaps it is possible for a misunderstanding. Jokes usually don't translate that well anyway.
The point was "what will the Luftwhiners claim next?" since the uproar never stops.
It was intended as humor.
If you didn't take it that way, you misread it.
------------------
Toad
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
-William Pitt
-
Though I could refrain. TOO __ DAMN __ HARD (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
" And I still dont undestand why some of you take all this as some personal insult to yourselves, the US or the Bearcat."
With that your dead wrong, at least with me. and judging from what many others have sadi I believe you have it wrong with them too. I have a problem with people who make gross exagerations such as the F8F design being heavily influenced, copied or even designed due to the FW-190. If you said the KI-61 was a rip off of the 109. I'd disagree, cause it wasn't. Same with Macchi 205. I'd would strongly and vocally disagree.
-Westy
-
Man no one has even mentioned that that small airframe can take 4 hispanos....
OUCH.
How many rounds per gun...anyone know?
-
Yep MC202 Hughes H1
-
Sorry Westy I read that story several years ago in a very good Grumman book, and thats just how it happend.
-
Hi
Here is just how far fetched the story is. You have to take this big a leap of logic to see the connection. Grumman test pilot flies 190 and thinks Gee just how good could this be if we build something close to it and put a whopping big R2800 in it. And coincidentaly Bearcat is almost an exact match for 190 in length, span, and weight. Plus design of the Bearcat started right after he returned from testing the 190. Plus you have to remember there was NO Grumman policy or official navy requirement asking for a lighter smaller fighter, but then the plane they build almost exactly matches the 190 in all those main dimensions, and he 190 is a very compact fighter by US standards.
Thats why I say that you guys seem to have an emotional reaction to this, its all very simple and straight forward, but u fellas just are unwilling to put your biases aside. Im not saying the Bearcat is a copy of the 190, Its obviously a Grumman plane with ties to F6F and F4F, Im just saying that the 190s overall design and capabilities influenced Grumman to take the particular direction and make the Bearcat the way it turned out.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
Show me some prejudice. Your just flapping yer jaws with a bunch of vague statements and references, and one quote that is perhaps the only concrete if it's taken as circumstantial.
"Well I read..."
"Heavy influenced..."
"simular"
"designer flew it"
"oh, test pilot flew it, and told the design team about it"
To paraphrase, blah blah blah.
The 190 wasn't the first compact airframe with a powerful engine. That's what's so stupid about this.
You've made an inference that because one associate of Grumman liked the Fw-190 that he went home and immediately tried to make an American counterpart. Taking only into account that the "design ethic" was to use a compact airframe with the Double Wasp. It's just stupid. I mean, it's like you want to believe the Fw 190 was the first compact fighter.
The don't look alike, and are nearly complete opposites in handling.
Woohoo. Just like every monoplane after the first one was a direct descendent. Even if it goes 450 mph faster and is compact, it's a direct descendent. It has simular dimentions and an inline engine. It HAS to be right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Just like saying the P-51 is a direct descendent from the Bf-109 (gag)
Major generation gaps.
Ain't confirmation bias great?
Constantly proven wrong in one area after another here, but you just keep backing off.
First the F8F was "based off the 190" because of a test pilot's words. Now it's
"same design ethic"
how much more general can you get?
The F4F was a small, compact monoplane fighter fitting a powerful radial. It was underpowered and slow. It evolved to the F6F. A bigger airframe for the much larger Double Wasp as opposed to the Cyclone. Then back to the compact airframe like the F4F (and had been expiremented with the FM2)
Combine the two and you've got most of the elements for the F8F, save the new perks that came through the years that couldn't be put into the other designs.
Perhaps, the Fw-190 might have made the Grumman team make up their minds that, yes, they wanted to go back to the compact airframe. That wouble be about it. But that's ignoring the FM2 and the other hanger queens the Grumman corp had laying around.
- Jig
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 10-30-2000).]
-
Hi
You are right I made the whole thing up and had it printed up in some book that was probably published while I was in preschool. Sorry for fooling all of you. I apologize. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
I just wouldn't try to make direct quotes out something from memory.
If you've got a title, author, etc. this would be totally different, (as well as all that in context and not just a test pilot opinion) I'm just pointing out there's nothing concrete about this other then "I read that..."
-
Hi
Your right about that, Ill try my best to find the book again in the next few weeks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
Grun:
I personally agree that the 190 inspired alot of the F8F design, however according to CC Jordan's webpage (which I've usually found to be reasonably accurate), it sounds like there was a requirement set down for it:
"The criterion set down for the design was somewhat different than requirements for its older sibling, the F6F Hellcat. This design was for an extremely high performance interceptor. The design goals included unparalleled agility, unprecedented acceleration, high rate of climb, excellent low level performance and the ability to operate off of every carrier from the upcoming Midway class down to the smallest escort carrier. Some historians have declared that the Bearcat was a response to Japanese kamikaze attacks. However, while the F8F was certainly the best fighter for combating these suicide assaults, the historians who espouse this theory are incorrect. The XF8F-1 was ordered in November 1943, the Kamikazes did not debut until eleven months later in October 1944."
------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
-
Hi
IIRC what I read in the book was that the pilots 190 experiences led him to lobby at Grumman specifically for the new fighter right after he returned from the testing, so what you mention might just be the result of his efforts.
But ill try to find the book again in the next few weeks, and hope to have more detailed info on this.
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
so a test pilot designed the Bearcat?
lazs
-
Originally posted by -lazs-:
so a test pilot designed the Bearcat?
lazs
LOL... as Gen. Al Boyd (in charge of Wright Field, Ohio during the "golden years") so accurately put it...
"Test pilots give FACTS and FACTS alone."
-
Yawn..FRIKKEN yawn...
Put the bloody thing in..then you can argue about the subtypes..
It would seem if it don't have stars+bars...or isn't a black crossed Kurt tank design...it dont have a snow balls chance...How bout all push for something that measured its combat life in years, or even months..than weeks
tronsky
(http://www.egroups.com/files/Skyrats/486.gif)
-
Subtype F8F-1B had 4x20mm... Muahahahahaha!
-
Right Juzz, but that was the Korean vintage Bearcat, not the WWII vintage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
Originally posted by Pongo:
Man no one has even mentioned that that small airframe can take 4 hispanos....
OUCH.
How many rounds per gun...anyone know?
Yes Sir! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Actually, this was the gun configuration that I thought was the standard. Meaning the 4x20mm one. I was very surprised no body mentioned it earlier in the thread. (Too BZ arguing I thinks)
Basically for the MA, it would be a F4U-1C on steroids, considering the A2A role. I am not sure of its ground attack capability, but not many perkers would risk that.
IMO a very good perk plane.
------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime
-
Hi
The 20mm are not standard on any WW2 era Bearcat. The Bearcats that everyone is talking about here, the ones on the carriers late in 45, had the 4x.50cal armament only. None of them had the 20mm. None! Its allready a strech with the chog but a Bearcat with 20mm would make AH 100% pointless as any realistic interpretattion of air combat of WW2. Next after the Bearcat would be another F8 of the Vought variety, it too would have 4 20mm guns, surely followed by F100s also with 4 20mm. I love Grumman planes and the Bearcat has always been a favorite, but a 20mm Bearcat in AH would be completly unacceptable as far as any aspect of historical accuracy is concerned. WW2 Bearcats only had 4 50 cals, if you want 20mm ask for an Indochina or USN reserve sim where you can fire them 20mm all day long. No way in AH!
thanks GRUNHERZ
-
I would *love* to see the bearcat 4x.50 cal as a perk.
oh BTW i thiink early war planes (Il-2, ju-87, hurricane II) more important tho
but when you make the USN perk, make it a bearcat!
-
Grunherz-
Don't take any speculation on the F8F to mean HTC is about to include one tomorrow. Only they know what they plan to model, and they're not talking. The people here just dream out loud occasionally. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I'm dreaming for Ki-84's, Ki-44's, Ki-100's, G55's... but it doesn't mean they will happen any day soon. So, I will patiently wait for the Imperial Sun to rise again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
I'd fly an F8F if it were armed with 2 .303s firing popcorn kernels.
Grun is 100% correct, if there ever is an AH F8F, it shouldn't have and doesn't need no steenkin' cannons.
------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=