Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SnakeEyes on October 29, 2000, 08:34:00 AM
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Let's have it!!
(http://www.aviation-heritage.com/images/RyanP1.jpg)
Hehe... just jokin'!
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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I'd be feel a tad uneasy about flying an aircraft called "Fireball" That and it sucked. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I don't think it sucked, per se... I think it was more an issue that the F4U and F8F filled its potential roles better, and that the two engines created more maintenance.
Its performance was decent, but certainly not earth-shattering (426 TAS at 18.5K), especially with the obvious arrival of the Jet Age.
Ok, so you want something a little hotter? Howabout this?
(http://people.mw.mediaone.net/jimbrennan/recip.jpg)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Snake, is that a MB3 or MB5 in your sig pic?
Nexx
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That's the M.B.5.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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SnakeEyes said:
> That's the M.B.5.
One is being built (sorta) 15 miles from here at the Stead airport. But ya knew that, right?
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Yah, I saw that. Pretty cool!
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Mb5 would be the perk plane that I would like the most. Both it and the fireball are based on the Fw190 you know.
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The Fw 190 had a jet engine?
Seriously, afaik these planes had some inspiration or design taken from the Fw 190A
1. Hawker Fury - designed to meet a specification drawn up after the British examined the Fw 190A-3.
2. Hawker Tempest Mk II - engine installation used much of the same tech as the Fw 190A after Hawker engineers studied it's engine installation.
3. Ki-100 - Japanese studied the Fw 190A engine mount and applied it to the Ki-61 airframe to make the radial engined Ki-100.
4. F8F was "inspired" by the Fw 190A. Ie: put a 2100HP radial(R-2800-34W) in the smallest possible airframe, rather than putting a bigger engine in an existing airframe(R-4360 in F2G).
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 10-29-2000).]
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Pongo was kidding I think. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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From what I've read the F4U was designed to be the smallest airframe in which to install the biggest engine (with the technology of the time), so....
The Corsair must have been inspired by the Fw 190 (the Germans having the patent on the "small airframe/big engine" concept). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Kieren,
Interesting theory. Except the Corsair was designed in 1939. Before the FW-190 I believe. So the FW-190 was copied from the F4U. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAH AHAHHAHA
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
F4UDOA
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Kieren,
Interesting theory. Except the Corsair was designed in 1939. Before the FW-190 I believe. So the FW-190 was copied from the F4U. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAH AHAHHAHA
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
F4UDOA
What's really weird is the F6F is one of the newer designs of all the Double-Wasp US fighters, yet is considered an old POS when compaired to the P-47, F4U, etc.
Hard to think of the F6F as being flown for the first time in '43 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
- Jig
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Btw we all know the Fw was based on the F4F.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Kieren,
Interesting theory. Except the Corsair was designed in 1939. Before the FW-190 I believe. So the FW-190 was copied from the F4U. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAH AHAHHAHA
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
F4UDOA
Well then check your history books again, because while the Hog was only a pencil trace on a paper, the Fw190V1 was already flying.
So, less laughter, man. Less laughter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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FW-190:
Development began in 1938-39. The prototype was completed in the late spring of 1939, got the registration number D-OPZE and after introductory ground tests, flew for the first time on June 1, 1939 with Hans Sander, chief test pilot in the Focke-Wulf Company at the controls.
F4U:
Development of the F4U began in 1938. The prototype first flew in May 1940
Ram, you are technically right only in the fact that the first version of the FW-190 flew before the F4U. The rest, about it being a gleam on someone skethc, is typical pro-Luftwaffle babble.
-Westy
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Originally posted by Westy:
Ram, you are technically right only in the fact that the first version of the FW-190 flew before the F4U. The rest, about it being a gleam on someone skethc, is typical pro-Luftwaffle babble.
-Westy
I only state that while the V1 prototype of the Fw190 was flying, the Hog was only a trace on a paper (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and I was right on it.
Of course I dont say anything else. Its true that I have read that F8F was influenced by Fw190, and the Hawker fury...well you only need to take a look at it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
BTW I dont say that the Hog was the smallest airframe possible for that engine...the engine was big, true...but the plane is VERY big too, and with a quite big wing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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RAM said:
> Well then check your history books again, because while the Hog was only a pencil
> trace on a paper, the Fw190V1 was already
flying.
> So, less laughter, man. Less laughter
This is fun, rather than squeaking over what mid/late '45 bird should be allowed,
we are going early :-)
After all the FW 190 was a copy of the Curtis 75 (1935),Macchi M.C.200 (1937), the Ki-27
(1936, a bird I would LOVE to see modeled for game use), and the Fokker D.XXI (1936) :-)
No laughter, but lots of :-)'s
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Originally posted by M.C.202:
After all the FW 190 was a copy of the Curtis 75 (1935),Macchi M.C.200 (1937), the Ki-27
(1936, a bird I would LOVE to see modeled for game use), and the Fokker D.XXI (1936) :-)
Check your books too, MC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). Fw190A was originally intended (its first idea was) to be a fighter plane with an inline engine, but the already pressed DB line couldn't afford to supply engines to another model.
So, the 190 was born with a radial engine instead an inline one. The first election was to be a BMW132, but later changed to the BMW801 cuz it was seen that a bigger development was possible with the 801.
The engine installation was a wonder of the engineering of the time. It was compact, light and very very succesfull. The only problem was serious heating in the aft bank of cylinders that only was solved in the A-1 version, with a new blower to cool that bank of cylinders. So far, nothing to do with MC200, Curtiss Hawk ,Fokkers or Nates. In fact the only features that those planes shared was the radial engine, nnothing else.
Fw190 was also the first "electric" fighter plane of the world. Weapons, wheels, flaps, etc were all controlled by electric controls. Novel, too was the "Kommandogėrat", a mechanical computer that controlled propeller pitch, mixture and engine RPMs, so the pilot had only to select a power setting and concentrate on flying and fighting.
In fact the engine was so vastly advanced for its time that the Luftwaffe's mechanics had some problems at the start because they had to maintain such an advanced engine.
So...MC202...please...can you tell me WHAT has the Fw190 in common with curtiss hawk, Nate or MC200?...because apart of a radial engine (And a much better one than any on those planes)...I see none (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
another thing ,that may have lead you to an error, its that RAF pilots first reported the Fw190A as a Curtiss Hawk with german markings...
Uh, yeah, forgot to say...Infalible british intelligence had NO clue of LW's new radial engined fighter plane until the first Spitfire Vs fell burning over the channel (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-31-2000).]
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Forget I joked about the ryan being based on the 190..
Man you guys have serios problems.
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But lets not forget that those Spitfire MkVs were based on the Fw190...
Sisu
-Karnak
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Then the Germans tested a DB 605 in a captured Spitfire Mk V and turned it into the Me 109G.
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RAM said:
> Check your books too, MC . Fw190A was originally intended (its first idea was) to
> be a fighter plane with an inline engine, but the already pressed DB line couldn't
> afford to supply engines to another model.
Nope, and I quote:
...in that he also submitted a proposal for a
fighter using the powerful 18 cylinder two row
radial air-cooled engine then being bench-run
by BMW, the BMW 139.
So no inline engine was planned. Japan however did do that with the Ki61/ki100.
M.C.200 radial to M.C.202 inline engine swap was a 1940 switch :-)
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
[This message has been edited by M.C.202 (edited 10-31-2000).]
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Ram is wrong alot... like in that he thinks the Ta-152A and 190-D9 are the same aircraft. Still, you've got to admire his single-minded dedication to the Axis cause. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Hold everything!
I just found a book that says the Wright Flyer was based on the FW-190!
Will try to scan the pages for yas!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/jump1.gif)
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Toad
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
-William Pitt
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SnakeEyes said:
> Ram is wrong alot... like in that he thinks the Ta-152A and 190-D9 are the same aircraft.
> Still, you've got to admire his single-minded dedication to the Axis cause.
Darn it, he was right about the burn-out rate for the Italian BB main guns though :-(
I think he is intrested in the info though, and will at least read what you say.
Not like me at all...... :-)
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
Ram is wrong alot... like in that he thinks the Ta-152A and 190-D9 are the same aircraft. Still, you've got to admire his single-minded dedication to the Axis cause. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Quote from "jane's fighting aircraft of WWII"
"when the so-called "long nosed Fw 190" (see focke-wulf Fw190D9) Had been proved to be successful, Professor kurt tank redesignated this aircraft the Ta152A. Structurally there was little difference between the Ta 152A and its predecessor. The nose of the aircraft was cleaned up t ogive a smoother fuselage top line and hydraulic instead of electrical operation was used for landing gear and Flaps".
Ok, give me then a smoother and more aerodinamical Fw190D9, with MW50 and hidraulically operadted gear and flaps (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ta152A and Fw190D9 are bassically the same aircraft. And I remember reading somewhere (Dont remember where ,tho) that the RLM changed the Fw190D9's name to Ta152A to honor Kurt Tank.
Maybe that last affirmation isn't true, but you read the quote saying that Ta152A and Fw190D9 have very little difference...didnt you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
M.C.202: read my posts again, I didnt say the Fw190 was DESIGNED as an inline engined plane, I said that the FIRST idea of the Fw was to be engined by an inline engine, and that is a fact. When it was realized that it wasn't possible to create another fighter with an inline engine, Kurt Tank started work on a radial engined one...but that was before designing it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You quote:
in that he also submitted a proposal for a
fighter using the powerful 18 cylinder two row
radial air-cooled engine then being bench-run
by BMW, the BMW 139.
I admit I made a mistake, BMW132 was a 800hp engine (mistook the number), the original BMW intended for the 190 was, as you say, the BMW139, and then changed to BMW801. But...look where you read those things, MC202...because that quote is COMPLETELY wrong.
First, because the BMW139 (And later the BMW801) was a 14-cylinder engine. not 18.
Second, Because BMW139 was in the eve of its development, and the BMW801 WAS the bench-run, not the 139.
Care to tell me in wich magazine did you read that? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (j/k)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 11-01-2000).]
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BTW I'm still waiting for you to tell me wich were the things that Fw190 copied from Fokker XXI, MC200, Nate and Curtiss Hawk
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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BTW I'm still waiting for you to tell me wich were the things that Fw190 copied from Fokker XXI, MC200, Nate and Curtiss Hawk
This is so easy RAM - almost like taking a candy from a baby:
- being able to fly;
- radial engine;
- 2 wings;
- 1 tail section;
- radial engine...
Do I need to go on or you got the picture already? The whole "190 is the father of all fighters" thing is ridiculous beyond all reason.
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lynx
13 Sqn RAF
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What are you gonna believe, Deitmar Harmann's book, or Jane's? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Still, you've got to admire his single-minded dedication to the Axis cause. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
LOL!! that was worth a laugh this morning (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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LoL. Quite a few chuckles in here this am. Which a releif for a change (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thanks Toad and lynx, as well as the rest (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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RAM,
Ahh, maybe the first FW190 beat the first F4U into the air but consider two things.
1. The BMW-801 was based on a license built early Pratt and Whitney design.
2. Kurt Tank was the father of the FW190 correct? After the war he immagrated where?
To Argintina where he pioneered Argintine Military Air power. I do not know how long he lived or remained active in the aircraft design field or Continued to select Aircraft to be used by the Argintine military, but in 1956 to 1972 the Commando Aviacion Naval Argentina was Flying F4U's of it's carrier decks not FW190's with tail hooks. So clearly this shows Kurt Tanks intent, that all along he wanted to design an F4U (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
We Win
F4UDOA
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So clearly this shows Kurt Tanks intent, that all along he wanted to design an F4U
We Win
F4UDOA
hehehehe.....
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RAM said:
> M.C.202: read my posts again, I didnt say the Fw190 was DESIGNED as an inline engined plane,
> I said that the FIRST idea of the Fw was to be engined by an inline engine, and that is a
fact
...snip...
>Kurt Tank started work on a radial engined one...but that was before designing it
Ah, but did he think of it as "the FW190" or "another damm fighter with an inline engine" ? :-)
What came first, the chicken or the FW190?
> I admit I made a mistake, BMW132 was a 800hp engine (mistook the number), the original BMW
> intended for the 190 was, as But...look where you read those things, MC202...because
> that quote is COMPLETELY wrong. First, because the BMW139 (And later the BMW801) was
> a 14-cylinder engine. not 18.Second, Because BMW139 was in the eve of its development, and
> the BMW801 WAS the bench-run, not the 139. Care to tell me in wich magazine did you read that? (j/k)
Page 194 of:
"WARPLANES OF THE THIRD REICH
William Green
Doubleday and Company, Inc
Garden City, New York
C 1970
(mine's the forth impression, 1979)
Also see page 195.
AND
> BTW I'm still waiting for you to tell me wich were the things that Fw190 copied from
> Fokker XXI, MC200, Nate and Curtiss Hawk
Lynx said:
> This is so easy RAM - almost like taking a candy from a baby:
> - being able to fly;
> - radial engine;
> - 2 wings;
> - 1 tail section;
> - radial engine...
I went for small airframe and light weight as well as the above.
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Man, I am surprised how nobody has mentioned the REAL planes which were copied DIRECTLY.
All this theoretical ho-hum about what might or might not have happened...LOL
Why not try on some REAL industrial intrigue?
The Soviets directly copied and built their own C-47's and B-29's. No questions there; the planes even look identical. Unfortunately, being communist, they never paid any royalties to the real designers of those planes. (Indeed, the B-29 was so much more advanced than Russian designs that the Soviets had a hard time copying it.)
J_A_B
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...I am Kurt Tank's love child... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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lol Kieren.... You guys are cracking me up with the FW inferences and other jokes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-Westy
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I know a good one. The Russians copied the AIM-9 Sidewinder bolt-for-bolt as the AA-2 Atoll, when they recovered one from the jetpipe of a Chinese MiG-15 after a Taiwanese F-86 had put it up there, but it had failed to explode...