Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Hamish on October 29, 2000, 06:15:00 PM
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With the threads lately about the F8F, Why shouldn't it be entered as a "Perk" plane. My personal choice would be the F8F-1, being as it was the only one i can find reference to being actually delivered before the war ended, 2 squadrons were enroute onboard U.S.S. Langly.
For those to cry against it a noteable item would be that cannon-dweebs would not fly this aircraft, as it is armed with "only" 4x.50 cal's. IMHO only Navy fans would truly enjoy this plane, what do you think?
Hamish!
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Don't forget the F7F-3 Tigercat too.
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F2G Super Corsair
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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I read your choice in the other thread verm, thpppt! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Corsairs are beautiful and all, and i've loved them since i was a kid watching "blacksheep squadron" but, since i read about the bearcat, i've grown very fond of it, and would Love to see it modeled somewhere sometime (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Juzz, as far as the tigercat goes, was it ever delivered before the end of the war? That's kind of my "limit" on whether or not a plane should be allowed to be modeled. If it wasn't delivered before the "end" of WW2, then i don't see how it can be considered a WW2 plane :P
P.S. do you have any good references i can look at? I saw a pic of it once a long time ago, but ain't seen any good data on it.
Hamish!
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This is a WWII era game not just a WWII game. Did all fighting stop just because Japan surrendered dont think so there was still alot of mopping up going on. some troops didnt stop fighting untill the emeperor himself ordered them to surrender. If it was built during this time line lets have, let the other sims do the been there done that thing.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Indians Home page were links to help pages can be found.
Indian's Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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7 comes before 8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
IOW; yes, the Tigercat was delivered to USMC units before the Bearcat got to the USN.
Hamish; use yahoo.com and search for "F7F" - it should turn up several pages, among them is an official Navy Historical site which has a .pdf file with performance data for the F7F-3 with several different loadouts. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Tigercat would be a supreme JABO plane. 4000lb bombload, 4x20mm, 4x.50in, 8x5" HVAR rockets...
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Thx Juzz, and Droooooooooool! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hamish!
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Brewster Buffalo.
// fats
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Btw; the F7F was an obvious rip-off of the Fw 187, and likewise the P-38 came directly from the Fw 189. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I thought all twin engined fighters were direct copies of the ME-110.
-Westy
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Yes! the piper senaca that i've been flying was a direct copy of the me-110! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Verm:
I'll bet you dollars to dimes that all other things being equal, the F8F would smoke the F2G under 20K.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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I would have to look Snakeyes, but I don't think so, at least as pure fighters.
If I get some time later, I will look into it further but from memory... and this site, which you probably have.
Best Navy Tech Data that I have seen. http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/fighter.htm (http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/fighter.htm)
The Tigercat and the F2G both have comparable low level climb rates.
The F2G is much faster at sea level, high 390's (399?) compared to 359 of the Tigercat. And both aircraft have Vmax of around 425 (423/21,900 for Tigercat) around 20,000ft.
{Edit: I just checked some numbers 430mph/16,000 ft & 400mph at SL}
Acceleration is probably on the F2G side with 3,500hp at a weight of around 12,000lbs (estimate based on memory) gives it a powerloading of between 3.5lbs/hp - 4.0lbs/hp (for weights higher than 12,000), while the Tigercat has 4760hp at 21476lbs, for a powerloading of 5.8lbs/hp.
Plus the F2G should handle much better than the Tigercat, considering the classical handling of the Corsair airframe, and the higher wing loading (worse turn) 47.2lbs/sqft and two engines off the centerline of the aircraft (poorer roll rate) of the Tigercat.
Firepower, of course would go to the Tigercat, and overall ground attack capability is slightly on the Tigercats side (over standard Corsair, not sure what F2G external stores were like), but both are admireable.
Just a quick and dirty analysis, that would need to be checked (especially the F2G stuff, all from memory), but I think its close.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 10-31-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 10-31-2000).]
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Wrong Cat... I'm talkin' Bearkitty (F8F).
Go to page 8 of the referenced URL (see November 20th) and I think you'll understand what I mean. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The F2G is a great a/c, and might even be a bit faster on the deck (not sure how fast the F8F is at sea level), but it still has to get position on the F8F to kill it... and I don't think that'll be easy).
http://www.history.navy.mil/download/history/part06.pdf (http://www.history.navy.mil/download/history/part06.pdf)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 10-31-2000).]
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hehehe sorry about the wrong "cat" I misunderstood.
10,000ft in 94 seconds? It would be interesting to see under what conditions it was done under. I would guess on fumes (very low fuel load), stripped down weight, and 150 octane fuel. Just a guess tho (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If I remember once before when I did a little F8F vs F2G research, I think they came out very similarly, with the F2G being a little faster, and the F8F having a better turn rate. An unknown that concerned me (if I had to fly it in the arena) was how good is the Bearcats high speed handling? We know the Corsair airframe is very good in that regard.
When I get a little free time, I want to do a F7F, F8F, F4U-4, F2G discussion like I did above. I think it would be very interesting.
Unfortunately right now, all my free time is going to "Afrika Corps"
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
When I get a little free time, I want to do a F7F, F8F, F4U-4, F2G discussion like I did above. I think it would be very interesting.
Why the Bearcat would come out to be the best of them all, of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
How could something with bent wings be better than a plane named after a ferocious animal? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hamish!
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The "I wanna Uber Ride" Tigercat is the F7F-1. Who needs a "guy in back" or radar instead of four .50cal mgs?
F7F-1
13,100lbs empty, 22,560lbs loaded
5.37 dry power to weight, 4.7 with wep.
455 wing area, so 49.58 lb sqft
F2G-2
10,429lbs empty, 15,422 loaded
5.14 power to weight
314 wing area, so 49.11lb sq ft.
I'll take the F7F and give up the sea level speed for the better p/w ratio and the four
20mm cannon and four .50 cal mgs all in the nose area (wing guns inboard of prop)
Better vis over the nose too.
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Hey Vermillion, you have to read that F7F .pdf file a bit closer to get the "real" performance numbers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
1. Powerloadings are given for BHP at full throttle height. Ie: for 1850HP, not 2400HP. Corrected powerloading at 1,000ft is 4.5lb/HP.
2. Top speed is given with bomb pylons attached. In a clean configuration S/L speed is 369mph, top speed is 435mph at 22,000ft.
As for that super climbing Bearcat. 115ft takeoff! That's about the same as a Storch isn't it? This was NOT a standard aircraft, not by a long shot. Hmmm, I recall a Bearcat did 540mph at low altitude after the war too...
M.C.202; the F7F-3 was a single seater, the -2N,-3N,-4N were the twin-seater nightfighter versions.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 10-31-2000).]
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Juzz said:
> M.C.202; the F7F-3 was a single seater, the -2N,-3N,-4N were the twin-seater nightfighter versions.
My bad :-), but it was heavier.
So, do we get one ? -1 or -3 :-)
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Yah, I'm pretty sure that Bearkitty was stripped down... but the original still humped arse pretty well. I think the real difference comes down to overall maneuverability (granted, this is a complex issue), which the Cat is probably going to win. Plus, the Cat gets important points for pilot SA and its relatively small size.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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SnakeEyes said:
> I think the real difference comes down to overall maneuverability (granted, this is a
> complex issue), which the Cat is probably going to win. Plus, the Cat gets important
> points for pilot SA and its relatively small size.
Bet you can get better vision during a high G lead turn with the F7F. And power to keep turning with two props to transmit the thrust.
And just think of when ya pull the trigger... :-) Bliss, just pure bliss ;=>
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Hehe... oops. When I say "The Cat", I always mean Bearcat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Verm:
I found stats on the Bearkitty at sea level from the Baugher MB.5 comparison page (of all places):
Powered by a 2100 hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800-34W eighteen-cylinder radial air-cooled engine. Armed with four 0.5-in machine guns. Maximum speed was 382 mph at sea level, 421 mph at 19,700 feet. Initial climb rate was 4570 feet/minute. Service ceiling was 38,700 feet. Weights were 7070 lbs empty, 9836 lbs normal loaded. Wing area was 244 square feet.
Wingloading of 40.3 for Bearcat gives it considerably better turning ability than the F2G, and with those stubby wings, I'd guess its rollrate is comparable to that of the F4U and 190.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 11-01-2000).]
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MC202, what kind of numbers did you us to calculate the Powerloading of the F2G? Using the weights you provided, I get:
F2G: 3,500hp at SL
empty weight: 10429lbs = 2.97 lbs/hp empty
Loaded weight: 15422 = 4.40 lbs/hp loaded
Compared to the 4.7 lbs of the Tigercat (your calculations)
Also your loaded weight for the F2G seems a little high to me, but I would have to go back and check myself. (comes out to almost 800 gallons of fuel, sure that isn't a drop tank config or a max loaded weight instead of a clean fighter max fuel weight, like I stated for the F7F?) For instance the "max weight" of the F7F is 25,846lbs versus the 21,476lbs of the clean fighter full fuel.
So the F2G accelerates better, has better max speed at altitude and SL, better rollrate (twin engine configuration), and they have comparable sustained turn rates. So the F7F has better firepower, and visibility. Me, I would take the F2G.
SnakeEyes, Yah your numbers look like what I remember. Take the Bearcat if you want to turn, if you want speed take the F2G. Otherwise they are quite comparable. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Juzz, admittedly, I just took the published Powerloading for the Clean fighter configuration #1 from the Navy's own test data sheets.
As to what you call its "true" max speeds, well I disagree (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) From the test data sheets, it seems to me that 369/425 is a special configuration, and that the condition #1 is the "official" configuration, that would have been used in combat.
Anyway you look at it guys, the F2G is at least equal too the F7F, except firepower, and is very superior in low level speeds (especially where it counts) and handling (rollrate).
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) Nah Nah I win. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 11-01-2000).]
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Hornet!!
Great one fer the limey's!!
SKurj
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Heh Verm - Yuppers, they are both very good aircraft.
My point is that H2H, the Bearcat is quite probably the superior A2A aircraft under 20K. It is going to be able to outclimb, outturn, outaccelerate, and outmaneuver the F2G pretty much across the board. It also has better visibility for the pilot and is a smaller target. With those stubby wings and it's "homage" to the 190, roll is probably at least equal to that of the Corsair (I'm guessing here). Sure the F2G might be able to dive away, but 15 IAS level speed doesn't buy you much. Certainly the F2G would have been the more versatile of the two, with profoundly greater A2G capabilities.
Still, I'd give my left one to be able to fly a good FM for either one of them in a either WB or AH. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Snakeeyes,
Btw, my comparison in the last post was Tigercat vs F2G.
Whats the horsepower output of the Bearcats engine agin?
Your numbers: 9836 lbs / 2100 hp = Powerloading of 4.69 lbs/hp compared to the 4.40 lbs/hp of the F2G
True the F2G weighs alot more, but it has a hell of alot more power too. From the numbers I have seen (above) the F2G should out accelerate the Bearcat.
So the F2G has top speed both at SL and Altitude, plus the higher acceleration. While the Bearcat beats it hands down in turning ability. Otherwise they are quite similar.
So it comes down to your style. Do you want speed and acceleration for E fighting in the F2G, or would you prefer to turn alot more in the Bearcat. History will tell you which one wins, in a real conflict. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And you don't think 15mph will make much of a difference? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Well, thats almost exactly the top speed difference on the deck between the P-51D and the Fw190A8, F4U-1C, Yak-9U and several others.
And the Pony regularly uses it speed advantage to run away from all those other aircraft daily.
Trust me, it don't shound like much, but in a extended tail chase even 5 mph makes a difference, and 15mph is a huge advantage.
Still, I'd give my left one to be able to fly a good FM for either one of them in a either WB or AH
I couldn't agree more !!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 11-01-2000).]
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I'd do some looking around on the horsepower/acceleration issue. I don't know whether that depicts military power or with wep... plus I don't know how much issues like drag play into this. My understanding is that the F8F was just about the fastest acclerating aircraft around. But that could certainly be a flawed understanding.
As a dedicated 51 driver, I'd have to say that diving is a bit overrated. Sure, it's nice when you need to go home. But diving it usually only saves your bacon, it rarely earns it. Getting over the bad guys and being able to convert E to Angles is what earns the bacon... and the Bearcat is in the sweetspot here.
I think they are just gonna need to model both, so we can figure exactly where these two birds stand... don't you think?
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Vermillion said :
> MC202, what kind of numbers did you us to calculate the Powerloading of the F2G? Using the weights you provided, I get:
> F2G: 3,500hp at SL
> empty weight: 10429lbs = 2.97 lbs/hp empty
> Loaded weight: 15422 = 4.40 lbs/hp loaded
Ah, here is my error, I used the HP listed in the first two books I had at hand, 3,000hp not 3,500hp. "Fighting Aircraft of WWII" and "American Aircraft of WWII, in Colour"
> Compared to the 4.7 lbs of the Tigercat (your calculations)
> So the F2G accelerates better, has better max speed at altitude and SL, better rollrate (twin engine configuration),
> and they have comparable sustained turn rates. So the F7F has better firepower, and
> visibility. Me, I would take the F2G.
Loaded weight for the F7F-1 is lighter than the -2,-3,or -4, (or the N of each) so S/L climb rate of 4,540 feet for the -2N will be higher for the -1.
I have not been able to find sea level speed for the F7F-1, the -1N had the radar pod, so speed for it is not the same.
The others were heaver, and higher weight takes more lift, so speed at higher weight will add more drag(angle of attack and trim settings), and be less (by just a little, but 5 mph is 5mph).
Any -1 numbers (clean) are looked for :-)
And the GUNS..... :-)
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Wrong again Vermillion. :P If you notice, the F8F-1 uses the same R-2800-34W as the F7F-3. Output is 2400HP with MW 50, err... water-methanol injection. Therefore powerloading at 9836lb loaded weight = 4.1lb/HP. Muahaha!
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 11-01-2000).]
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the F2G has a single (It might be 425, I forget, I figured it up once) 475 Gallon tank, and with water injection, the Wasp Major puts out right at 3,600 HP.
Btw, the F2G's visablility is about equal to the F8F, they finally cut the back down for a bubble canopy. Least on the Racers, all two of them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 11-01-2000).]
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Hehe... um, Racers? That sounds like aircraft without guns... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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The F2G stats come from the armed model (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But the racers were very successful for a reason.
And I used Snakeyes numbers for Bearcat horsepower, so don't blame me if they're wrong (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Jigster is also correct, all F2G's had a P-51D/Bearcat style bubble canopy, so the only issue on visibility would deal with the length of the nose, and the height of the pilots seat, neither of which I have solid data to comment on.
How about we call a truce and say that the F4U-4, F2G, F7F, and F8F, are all very close in capability, and they are some kick bellybutton airframes that we would love to see in AH ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Vermillion said:
> How about we call a truce and say that the F4U-4, F2G, F7F, and F8F, are all very close
> in capability, and they are some kick ass
airframes that we would love to see in AH ?
> Vermillion
Sounds good to me :-)
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Once you see a Wasp Major in real life, you will never go back to Double Wasps.
Trust me on that one.
And when I saw a real one (block cut away) next to the Merlins, Allisons, Double Wasps, Cyclones, and even the last Jumo 004B-1 turbo-jet engine, there is just no comparison.
Everytime I see that thing (right next to the Privateer restoration project) at LSFM, I drool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Bring the others but I want the smoothest running radial ever produced (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Ask and you shall receive...
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/engines/eng34a-1.jpg)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Thanks all of you for all of your posts in this thread, and thank you for not letting it degenerate into a flame fest as has happened wiht some other similiar threads these days. i learned a lot from you guys, as usual, and i still hope that we can all try out an F8F in AH sometime in the future.
(maybe even an Uber F2-G for you too Verm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<S!>
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Hamish!
(http://heathblair.tripod.com/assassins2.gif)
<===<The ASSASSINS>===> (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
[This message has been edited by Hamish (edited 11-02-2000).]
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Hamish,
u can watch "Blacksheep Squadron" on the history channel at 11 AM EST on Saturdays
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I think I'll print that out for a pin-up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)