Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: leonid on January 18, 2000, 03:47:00 AM
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I have always had a hard time with the N1K2 (most recent case being Cody (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). And now that it looks like the popular ride, it has become a real concern. In fact, I was beginning to think that the niki was totally superior to the la5, because it always appeared to do everything better than me. Finally, I went and did some tests with the la5 & niki offline. The niki has excellent acceleration when put into any type of dive, but its top speed does not exceed the la5. Both the niki and la5 have similar climbing abilities. The niki will get on the la5's tail in about 4-5 turns.
With this new knowledge I changed my tactics and came up with something that can beat the niki, given even energy:
[list=1]
- At merge, stay below it via a shallow to moderate dive, avoiding HO, then pull up with just enough pitch to regain coalt to slightly higher alt while maintaining high speed. This should create a good chunk of lateral separation, say 1.5k.
- Once lateral separation reaches around 1.8-2.0k begin a serious, yet not vertical, climb while slowly turning to the right. In essence, a wide spiral climb.
- Watch the niki closely, and only dive vertically when you are certain the niki has leveled/stalled.
- Should the gun pass fail, repeat the above steps.
[/list=a]
These tactics are based on the premise that the niki driver will make an immediate reversal, or even a lead turn, at merge. Most of the niki drivers I have met do so. However, if you meet a niki that opts for alt after a merge then the steps below will still give you a fair chance at the next merge.
Good luck, Lavochka drivers! Our plane is dated, but remember, there is still one more to come - the
La-7!
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leonid, aka grisha
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Great advice, Leonid. In short, use their aggressivness against them.
wtg (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Leanid;
Very good advice thanks. I often find my tactics changing, just as yours do.
Alas, my favorite ride of late is the N1K2. My current tactics pretty much conform to yours, but with the opposite agenda. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-18-2000).]
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Good info Leonid, will have to try it out...
Over the weekend, I had decided to try a different ride and flew most of my sorties in the La5. I've found that it flies very similarly to the old Mustang. Whats nicer is that it climbs better than the old mustang and has cannon instead of those 50s.
Now...on to my question. Do any of you have tracers in your La5? Im having the damndest of a time trying to get kills without those tracers. I have a feeling I have completely screwed up my sight by customizing my head position, but it seems that the tracers are probably too far below the nose of the La5 to be seen. Am I the only one with this problem? Does anyone have any hints on lead and aim in the La5? Other than the sight problem, this is a great plane!
-Ding
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Hristo,
You're one of the best I know to employ this tactic. When there's a h2h version, you and I should duel again - like old times (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dingy,
If your forward view is so skewed from adjustments that you can't see the tracers, hit the 'home' key and this will set your view back to the default setting. However, the 20mm cannons will dip a bit under G's.
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leonid, aka grisha
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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A bit *cough cough*
After more than 4 G you won't even see your bullets past 100 yds. If your in a turn fight your best bet by far is to get far head, zero your G and fire so he flies into them.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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I am just a caveman....so please enlighten me...
Why do the La5 shells drop so much under G's? Is it a slower shell? A bug?
-Dingy
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The shells don't really drop more or less it just looks that way- what is essential is that you pull more lead in a hard turning situation.
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No BB, the shells DROP... the La5 has a massive drop and dispersion compared to any other 20mm in the game. I have noted (and complained) of it before.
My assumption is that 20mm SHvak was very low velocity compared to other cannons and that it had a wildly inaccurate flight.
I cannot verify it either right or wrong though due to the extreme lack of hard information on WWII SHvak cannons used. The dispersion at least seems circumspect to me, the SHvak in La5 had a wickedly long barrel and should have been fairly accurate.
For that matter (If anyone is still listening) there probably should be no convergence on the La5 either, those SHvak had a long barrel shooting through the propeller along the nose, I sincerely doubt they were adjustable in that fashion.
My strongest reccomendation to a new La5 pilot after flying the AH one almost exclusivly since Beta 1 tour... Don't do shots under G over 3. If their over 300 yds away your hit probability is scarce. Better to pull farther ahead and take up a spot behind them for a nice easy pick.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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Thanks for the tips Leonid....can't wait for that La-7 also :-)))
RAS
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Sorrow,
The ShVAK 20mm cannon is actually a high velocity shell among 20mm's. Personally, I don't see anything unusual about the shell drop, but I could be wrong. In WB, the ShVAK for the Yaks had about the same drop.
Maybe something to consider is the actual nose layout of the La-5FN. On top of the nose is the intake for the oil cooler, which cuts off a fair amount of your gunsight view. This inlet makes shots under G's difficult, and in fact was complained about by VVS pilots.
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leonid, aka grisha
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Sorry Leonid, but since this thread has changed to "Shell Drop", I have a few questions.
My lack of experience will clearly show here, but it becomes extremely frustrating for me at times.
My strongest reccomendation to a new La5 pilot after flying the AH one almost exclusivly since Beta 1 tour... Don't do shots under G over 3. If their over 300 yds away your hit probability is scarce. Better to pull farther ahead and take up a spot behind them for a nice easy pick.
My typical ride of late has been the N1K2. There is no way I can watch the G meter, but my shots are most always under 300yds. However, basically I have given up trying to shoot while turning.
Up till now I assumed it was the modeling of a low veloctity cannon round of the N1K2. I simply cannot pull enough lead if I am turning and my target is turning, to get hits. Hit sprites show through cockpit art and I am just not getting any.
I had thought, that the projectile is actually not effected by the G load of the plane. It flies its normal trajectory, based on where the muzzle was pointed at the time of firing. The illusion of projectile G drop is from the plane moving away from this line of trajectory. Is this correct?
It most often in appears to me that the game just does not resgister hits if both me, and my target are in hard to medium turns. The tracers seem to move right through the target, but nothing happens. Since no one else has brought this up, I am pretty sure that it is my gunnery and not the game.
Experimenting with various lead angles I have shot many times with the target "Under the Hood", sometimes way "Under the Hood". It amazes me at times how long some players stay in the same turn and I have explored about every lead angle that I can get to.
Up until I read some of Dingy's comments, I figured this was just a characteristic of the N1K2. I was assuming the normal trajectory drop was higher than other planes. The reason I say this is because, this G drop in shell projectile appears to me to be much less in the P-51 or the Spitfire. I can say this only because they are the only other planes I have enough experience in to be subjective about. (Go ahead, tease me! Let the Dweeb comments fly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
One last thing that confuses me. If I am flying level and my target is flying level. At a range of d400, I can pretty my much put the sight on the target and get hits. This tells me the shell trajectory is fairly flat up to a least d400.
Why can't I get hits if I am pulling lead at 3 G's, and my target is pulling 3 G's and I am at d150? These shots are most often taken in the lead from inside the turn radius, a high six position relative to the target.
My only real success for getting hits is to move into lag pursuit and hope to get a shot, when neither myself or my target is turning. This is not something I can take the time to do in a furball and usually end up on the deck at stall speed anyway, if I stay with it. This is a bad idea most of the time.
Some expert advice is needed. I would appreciate any help offered.
Sorry for the long post, some things are hard to describe accurately. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-19-2000).]
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Minotaur,
Yeah, I don't know what to say. 20mm cannonshells generally dip more than bullets. I guess its a m.z./mass thing. I remember reading somewhere that 20mm generally were optimum within 200m.
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leonid, aka grisha
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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I will now translate this original thread for the Luftwaffe fighters out there, fly the LA-5 like you would the FW190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
-Rip1- VF-101 Grim Reapers (RET)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977
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It's simple really. Type 99-2 cannon suck. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
They fire big 130g shells like the Hispano, but at the slow initial velocity of 625m/s compared to 880m/s for the Hispano. Also, they fire slowly at only 490rpm while the Hispano fires at 600rpm. The Type 99-2 is comparible in performance to the German MGFF cannon, used in the Bf109E.
The ShVAK and MG151 fire slightly lighter shells(around 90-115g), the ShVAK at 860m/s and 800rpm(don't know if sychronisation lowers this, possibly not though), and the MG151 at 800m/s and 740rpm.
And the Browning .50 fires 48.5g bullets at 750rpm, with a velocity of 870m/s.
Because of physics, generally larger calibre rounds lose speed less quickly than smaller calibre rounds, so the ShVAK and Hispano shells are going faster than the .50's at long range. Which is why you should be able to ping B-17's from outside the effective range of their defensive guns.
Minotaur; what convergence setting do you have the guns set to? If it's set to 400 yards, then the rounds converge at the centre of the crosshair at a point 400 yards in front of the plane.
What appears as "bullet drop" is just the fact that as your bullets leave the gun barrel they continue on along the same vector your plane was on at that time; but shortly after they leave the barrel your plane has turned some more, and the tracers appear to "drop" from the pilot's perspective.
So it's a better idea to pull the nose around to where the target will be soon, level out and wait for it to fly right along the line of all those wing mounted cannon. Using rudder you can get more hits in too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The reason I say this is because, this G drop in shell projectile appears to me to be much less in the P-51 or the Spitfire.
BINGO!! This is exactly why I noticed this phenomena in the La5. I got my feet wet in AH flying the Mustang and Spit and found that it was not that difficult to hit a plane which begins its break turn just as Im lining up the shot. I could pull into the same plane of motion as the enemy, move from lag pursuit into lead pursuit and usually get a good solid hit. I could actually see how I needed to correct aim. This doesnt seem to be the case with the La5 since with the same lineup and G-load, the shells seem to trail behind the enemy. This was the artifact I was referring to.
-Ding
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Leonid;
I remember reading somewhere that 20mm generally were optimum within 200m
Thanks for your reply...
If I am not terribly mistaken this is around 600yds.
But, your other comments make sense, because the N1K2 only has 20mm.
Juzz;
Minotaur; what convergence setting do you have the guns set to?
Thanks for your reply...
I set my convergence for 325yds, all guns. I consider optimum lethality long distance shots to be in the range d275 to d375. I seldom take a shot longer than d375, except for when I jump on a BUFF's head.
For high to medium G turns I am not hitting anything at much over d50.
Juzz, Is this correct on my part?
Minotaur: I had thought, that the projectile is actually not effected by the G load of the plane. It flies its normal trajectory, based on where the muzzle was pointed at the time of firing. The illusion of projectile G drop is from the plane moving away from this line of trajectory. Is this correct?
More confused than ever. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I might try setting my convergence to 150, maybe a "Shotgun" effect might work out better. Thanks again!
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-19-2000).]
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200 metres = ~220 yards.
It makes sense to set the convergence to the distance you take most of your shots at. Try setting the inner pair slightly less(25-50 yards) than the outer pair to produce a "pattern" convergence rather than the "point" convergence you're using now. That should produce a "shotgun" effect at the point of convergence, and might help you to score more hits if your gunnery isn't very good, since you can miss a little and still get hits. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Your thoughts on bullet drop is basically correct. I do recall however hearing from somewhere that G load does have an effect on the bullets path, but I think it's fairly minimal at least for short ranges. It might not even be modelled in AH gunnery anyway.
I think the La-5FN issue is exactly like Leonid said: Maybe something to consider is the actual nose layout of the La-5FN. On top of the nose is the intake for the oil cooler, which cuts off a fair amount of your gunsight view. This inlet makes shots under G's difficult, and in fact was complained about by VVS pilots.
The Spitfire and Mustang have their guns mounted in the wings, and the wings on aircraft tend to point slightly above the direction the aircraft is flying, so these guns are pointing "up" into the gunsight.
The La-5FN has it's guns in the nose, shooting at the same level as the flight path, so you have to "look down" at the bullets path through the gunsight, which means they drop under the nose very quickly when you shoot and turn.
I remember in that "first film" you posted Leonid; that you shoot down a Bf109 with a short burst when it disappears "under the nose" at short range, the exact same gunnery tactic used by H.J. Marseille. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Juzz: 200 metres = ~220 yards.
Oopsie... I could try 600ft maybe! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If the 20mm has on an effective range of d220, this indeed settles some very confusing issues for me.
I am hoping once the to game goes "Pay for Play", we will get numbers that apply in this fashion.
Thanks again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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Yes, we have gone over the nose convergence argument and the high nose discussion before. The problem is that the 190, .205 and 109 do not suffer the same amount as the La5. In a banking turn with around 4G you can see your shells in an La5 drop rapidly after D 200-250. How do I know this? Set your convergence to lower settings and do the turn. At C 200 the shells converge about 10mm under my gunsight. at 275 they are converging UNDER my hood. Thats drop pure and simple. The spit, .205 do not suffer from this too any extent, I can pull 4-6 G and still hit things in my sight in either.
The 190 and 109 get MORE interesting. Both have roughly the same shell as the La5 but both can accuratly shoot at 4 G. And both are roughly the same setup as La5. So my question is why the difference between these planes guns?
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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--- Minotaur: ---
The tracers seem to move right through the target, but nothing happens. Since no one else has brought this up, I am pretty sure that it is my gunnery and not the game
--- end ---
It might very well be the game. In WB the tracers were drawn over everything else, minus your cockpit. So you could see tracers fly 'over' the enemy when they were really way behind him in 'Z axis'. Perhaps there could be similar thing going on with AH?
//fats