Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Hristo on January 27, 2000, 12:59:00 AM
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This has been mentioned in General Discussion, as well as few times before.
The Pfeil
Lately we got the cannon Hog. More or less surprisingly it outmatched any other plane in AH judging by K/D ratio. Even the Niki, also armed with 4 big guns, being better turner, climber and accelerator, has pathetic score compared to the Hog.
Now, as far as I know, the cannon Hog was:
(http://home.nycap.rr.com/airwarrior/F4U.jpg)
quite rare plane
lethal guns
big
good for ground attack (read vulch)
fairly fast
mediocre turner
poor climber
poor accelerator
good diver
poor six view
tough
ugly/cool design
Strangely enough, almost all these characteristics pretty well aply to the Do 335:
(http://www.cnd.net/~kais/ac/jaegers/do335.jpg)
even more rare than cannon Hog
even more lethal guns
even bigger
good for ground attack (read vulch)
fairly faster
even more mediocre turner
probably better climber
far better accelerator
good diver
poor six view
tough
even uglier/cooler than the Hog
Interestingly, both are related to year 1943, while Do 335 never officially entered the Luftwaffe (or am I wrong).
Also, seems that Hog has 15% lower wingloading, while Pfeil has 15% better power loading (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So, how about the matchup ? Pros and cons, please, but have in mind that Hog needs an anti-Hog quick (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Why cannon Hog in AH ? Why not the Pfeil as well ?
P.S.
I know about the Tempest, but it is no Luftwaffe.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 01-27-2000).]
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I think that a well modeled FW190D-9 should be enuff.
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Sorry, Gatt, but I disagree about cannons.
My experience is that Hog cannons have twice the effective/damage range of the Mg 151/20 in AH.
While it is usually waste of ammo to fire at d4 with MG 151/20, I have lost parts at ranges of d8-10 to the Hog (yes, I am aware of the lag).
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As far as cannons are concerned your right. What I mean is that a well modeled Dora should be enuff to win a dogfight (avoiding HO, that is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
BTW, I'm aware that the Hispano is a better cannon than the Mauser. Do you mean that our 151-20 is porked like the WB's one? (If I'm not wrong no HE shell there, only AP).
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Well, porked is a word a bit too strong.
I don't know what rounds are modeled for MG 151/20, but they are pretty effective, at least at ranges below 200 yards. Outside of that range you should not expect miracles (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What I experience is the trajectory of the Mauser, which is inferior to the one of Hispano. Also, dispersion seems greater.
In HO, .50 cal and Hispano armed planes often start firing from d10-12 on my FE, and I get damage even before I enter 109 effective gun range. Same thing with Niki.
Spit, Hog or Niki d8 behind you is a problem. 109, 190 or Macchi d8 behind is almost safe.
I never fire outside 350 yards, even in a straight tail chase. The ammo waste is simply to big, compared to the result. The exception is only when I try to make opponent turn.
However, I have been pinged (and damaged) at ranges far greater than that. Once I lost wingtip in 190 to spit who was 1200 yards behind on my FE, and 800 yards on his FE.
Also, I consider Spit more dangerous in HO than 190, because it can deliver damage at considerably greater ranges. Up close the 4 20mm 190 wins though.
Hog is probably even more dangerous than Spit, I naver dared to even think of HOing one.
But let's limit this thread to Pfeil-Hog duel of Uglies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Besides other aspects, Pfeil might be the only plane which will be feared in HO by Hog drivers.
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You just want those MK 103 don't you?
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You bet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I would love to fly that plane. The DO-335.
Not sure I'd relish a dog fight flying in it but I've always thought that aircraft was beautiful.
-Westy
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A Hispano 20mm round fires at a higher muzzle velocity than any of the other major 20mm cannons in WWII. Also, at 130g per round, the Hispano shell is on average about 30% larger than any of the 20mm shells that fire at similar velocities. Thus, the four Hispanos on the F4U-1C are extremely formidible. The last place you want to be is in front of a F4U-1C - I don't care at what speed or energy state. Finally, since the Corsair is the next fastest thing (or next to the next fastest thing), you never want to be coalt, or below it for any length of time.
Thus, when engaging a F4U-1C:
[list=1]
- Stay higher, or lacking height, retain higher energy.
- Never HO.
- Refrain from scissoring, in case you end up H2H.
- Straddle a Corsair only if its energy state is quite low, relative to yours.
[/list=a]
Any other situation -
leave quickly. There is no choice, if one wishes to return to base in other than a body bag.
OTOH, if you want an awesome score, fly a F4U-1C as a pure energy fighter. You will see kills you never would have dreamed possible. While I don't quite advocate spray-n-pray, I do insist that you shoot at any shot opportunity - anything! Those four Hispanos will make the slimmest snapshots almost assured kills.
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leonid
129 IAP VVS RKKA
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 01-27-2000).]
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Ok, you have scared me enuff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) The only way to get out seems to be climbing away. Seriously, I do believe we dont need a "1946?" or a "Secret weapon of the LW" kite to bring down a Corsair ....
Anyway, I'm an early war plane set fan ....
P.S.: What about a TigerII to HO a F4U-1C? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 01-27-2000).]
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Leonid.
Yup.
Thats the real thing. Your shot envelope goes out to 800. And you will kill at that range. I went deep into knight land last night. I was chasing a B17 but he was dead before I got there. So I kept going found a lone b26 co alt...He was dead not a ping. Found 2 more both dead small ping no damage.
I still had over 220 rounds reading in each ammo counter...As I was touring back towards the mountains, A 109(g10) was climbing up to say hi....I dove about 2 k He did a fairly good job of cutting the angle towards me so I only had a snap shot...by by wing. A .50 armed plane might have hit at such a crazy angle.. but it wouldnt have hurt him seriosly i think.
I had enough ammo left to do it all again...
But no cons...So I went home.
All of the b26s where taken down from their 8 or 4 oclock, coalt... not a hit on me really. They were dead at d700-800
I would love to see one of those big formations of buffs without escort....
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Pongo
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even uglier/cooler than the Hog
WoW! "Sky Dragon"
As I recalled, this "Beast" had the rear engine postitioned tranverse to the front engine.
Mino
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Pongo nailed it. The guns envelope of the Hog makes it such an awesome killer.
I learned it the hard way: d8 distance (on both my and opponent's end, confirmed on open channel) is no safe place to be when Hog is behind. His gun recoil slows him down, yes, but usually it kills before this happens.
Even 4 MG 151/20 190 is nowhere near that guns envelope.
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Cannon Hogs were in serial production, in service with combat units. They fought well. Ditto for cannon-armed Hellcats. Ditto for cannon-armed Mustangs for that matter!
Do 335 was never mass produced nor was it delivered to combat units. There is no evidence that it fired a shot in anger.
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Yep, very true, funked. However, can you think of any other LW planes more similar to the cannon Hog ?
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Me 262. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Or a Fw 190D-9 with the cannon installed in the outer stations which were present on all D-9 built.
I'm sure we'll see both!
P.S. I don't know if people realize that the ballistics on the MK103 were frightening. Huge muzzle velocity and a very good ballistic coefficient on the projectile. Unlike the MK108 this would be a weapon that could kill with energy OR explosive power.
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Some of these Russian cannon are pretty scary too you know! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
MK103 30x184B(330g) 420rpm 860m/s 146kg
MK108 30x90RB(312g) 600rpm 505m/s 64kg
Do-335! Hs129! Me410!
VYa 23x152B(200g) 500rpm 905m/s 69kg
NS-37 37x195(735g) 250rpm 900m/s 150kg
NS-45 45x182(1065g) 250rpm 850m/s 150kg
Il-2! Yak-9T! Yak-9K! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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me262!
it was in service!
ok, we wonīt get it for the main- game balance etc. bla bla bla
BUT- The Me209 was cancelled due to the Me262, so if axis forces donīt get a 262, they should have at least a 209 instead.
ohhhhhh no 209? ok, letīs go on with a G6,equiped with a 605A (G6 with Erla Haube had "umruestsatz AS" >> 605AS engine), unable to roll, and a G10, equiped with a "D", also unable to roll (hmmmmm, the 109, no fuel in the wings, no weapons in the wings, the lightest plane in the arena, but slowest roll rate of all aircrafts -physics???), though a good roll speed was considered to be more important than turn performance in the Luftwaffe...
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The most important reason why I sugested Do 335 is the ballistics and power of MK 103.
Me 262 has too short killing range with MK 108s. Dora is a bit better, but MG 151/20 is quite inferior (balistic wise) to the cannons found in Hog.
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Wasnt there a prototype of the 262 with 2 103s....
Certainly if it had been developed to fight in this war it would be armed with 4 * 151(20)
I think the 262 would do poorly here. They should intoduce it and show what the kill power of the 17s can do to such a fragile plane.
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Pongo
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I doubt the 262 was fragile. The airframe had to be very strong to resist dynamic pressures that prop planes could not achieve. Furthermore the propulsion system is very compact and not spread all over the plane with oil coolers, radiators, intercoolers, turbo plumbing, oil reservoirs, etc.
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I got that impression from reading the new osprey book. I will see if I can find any references in it that support what I said.
I just got the impression that it was fairly easy to inflict performance slowing damage. and once it was slower...it was history.
Its lack of accelleration makes it very vulnerable once it is slowed down...(like an f4u1c)
We all know it was unreliable maybe I transposed that to fragile.. I will look.
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Pongo