Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Scot on January 28, 2000, 05:53:00 AM
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HTC and Co.,
Are there plans to create the later war LW aircraft <time frame?>? With the the presence of the N1K, and the F4U1C, I think it would be appropriate to have the Ta152 and later model Doras. I apologize if this topic has already be discussed.
Thanks!
Scot
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D-9 is the only feasible one as the Ta152 and D-12/13, are too fast.
If we had the latter; then Westy would get his P-47M, and we just can't let that happen, ever! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Even worse; someone might start asking for the P-51H!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Not to mention some lunatics actually asking for 262s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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All I know is if this uberplane stuff continues, then I'm going to be demanding the all-metal version of the Yak-3, which was the fastest prop aircraft in history at something like 463mph.
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leonid
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Yes -o- Yes
The list can go on forever, but as long as this is a "Wish List".
There is a certain "Griffon" powered 5-bladed propeller, climbing beast that Spits fire I would consider cool! Spitfire Mk XIV anyone? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9378/spit21.jpg)
Mino
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Sorry Leonid. The P47 M beat that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Bring em *all* out!
I wish for a full and fruitful plane set!! For all!
-Westy
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Acceleration might just be more important than speed, Jug drivers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Show me ANYTHING that can accelerate faster then an unloaded Jug with WEP. I dare ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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-Rebel
"With a Rebel yell!"
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Will my Martin Baker MB5 have the Protoype P on it? I would prefer that it be in 401 squadron colours...
With 6 20s please...
And what about that Ausi P51 thingy...
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Pongo
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 01-28-2000).]
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In level acceleration, I think we both know the thruth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As for dives, I’d bet on 262 and Pfeil.
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I think Rebel meant acceleration in a dive!
Leonid I think a Yak-3U would be plenty exciting.
Or how about an La-9?
Other than D-9 the production numbers on Fw 190D and Ta 152 were pretty slim.
I don't feel planes should be left out of the planeset based on whether they made it to the front lines or not, but I do think that the planes that fought in large numbers should be done first.
So I would do D-9, Me 262, P-47M and F4U-4 before getting to Ta 152, F8F, Do 335, etc.
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TA-152 and Dora?? Who wants a plane that anyone, even a rookie, can look good in? Let's get with a plane only REAL MEN can fly, P61 Black Widow!
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Defected~)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977
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Originally posted by juzz:
D-9 is the only feasible one as the Ta152 and D-12/13, are too fast.
Too fast? gee, isn't P-51 already too fast?
If you didn't realise, germans must be faster, because they can't possibly go into T&B with spit.. lol
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Ahh, but Westy, here's the interesting part. The plane I'm referring to is the Yak-3/VK-108. The max speed of the P-47M was 470mph @ 30k. The max speed of the Yak-3/108 was 463mph @ 20k. Hence, at 20k, or lower, I bet the Yak-3 was faster. Also, the Yak-3 had a max power loading of 3.54lb./hp, and could climb to 16,404ft. in 3.5 minutes (avg. climb rate: 4,687ft./min.). Finally, it had two 20mm cannons in the nose. Oh, but it wasn't all metal.
One should think that even the P-47M was outclassed by this little aerial velociraptor (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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leonid
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Agreed Leonid (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
If you want a true all around Uberfighter, the Yak3/108 was definitely it.
It could turn like a Spit, and outrun the Pony's/Dora's.
Truely frightening.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
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You've got my interest really peaked Leonid.
I'm off to find out more on the Yak-3/V108 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
How would the Hawker Tempest V stand up out of curiosity? It was a reported low level demon too.
...off to the 'net....
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 01-28-2000).]
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When it comes to a dogfite, I'd prolly pick the Yak over the 47M... but that's not what we were talking about. 463 TAS at 20K is damn fast... but when you're measuring a/c speed, that's still less than 470 at 30K no matter how you look at it Leonid! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Ta152H: 470mph at 41,000ft (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
P-51H: 487mph at 25,000ft?!
They's fast too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Too fast? Nah. Only if you're a 262 pilot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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This is an intresting discussion because I think HTC should draw the line somewhere on uberplanes. Where do you put that line?
Very low production, limited service or few combat engagements all count.
Personally planes such as the Ta 152 (only a production run of 67 on all types I read somewhere) ,F7F, F8F, spit 21, meteor, sea fury the sort of planes which never really saw signicant combat due to being to late should not get into the game. I think we should see Tempest's (squadrons recieved them in spring '44, 1400 produced - only 400 naiper-sabre engined V's though) Spit 14's (spring '44) 190 D9 (a mid '44 I think, production run of about 800?)
Intrestingly the Me 262 would certainly have every right to be modeled under these circumstances that is just a question of play balance (do people want it available?)
The F4U-4 is also intresting due to the fact the pacific war went on much longer than the european conflict and so the -4 saw combat despite it's introduction in '45 (mid '45 ?) Which if the european conflict was still going on we might well have seen spit 21 etc in more significant numbers.
F4U - 1C I think is slightly different as it is just an exotic armament layout for the -1D I do not think there would be uproar if only 200 spit 9 e-wings (2 .5's and 2 20mm) were made and HTC still offered it as an option.
P.S. What were the introduction dates of the p47M, Yak 3/VK - 108 , p51 H.
Having said that I hear were getting the typhoon I hope it's the eurofighter jet version.
Personally though i would like to see HTC go backwards from here so we get the planes that won the war and so we have sets for the scenarios. The hurricane was not as good as the P47 M but it was a hell of a lot more important.
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Oh and speed is only good for running away, acceleration,placid low speed handling anbd manuvrebility are king in a dogfight. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think it's intresting that the P51's main asset (apart from range) is speed but as an escort this is largly negated due to the fact that running away means failing in your escort duty. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Disclaimer : only opinions don't cry if you don't agree your plane is still worthy of your love.
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Oh and speed is only good for running away, acceleration,placid low speed handling anbd manuvrebility are king in a dogfight
Now, you don't seriously believe this... I assume that is what the (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) is for!
The zero is the perfect example of this. I think we should get the A6M5(a or c) at some point, but it will get shredded nonetheless by hordes of everything else in the set. It will be the king of the TnB, but it won't matter to an enemy that can start and end a fight at will. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I am serious dolomite
but i think you
misunderstand my meaning
by dogfight i mean 1v1
rather than an arena situation
where speed is very important
, FOR RUNNING AWAY (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Or to put it a better way
to chose which targets you
engage and then choose
targets which are at a clear
disadvantage then have the
ability to disengage.
In 1v1 it boils down to
getting as much alt as
possible while still
being able to reverse
(hence placid handling
is useful so you can
reverse safely at 75
mph without spinning,
and climb to get alt)
The zero isn't a great
at 1v1. The 109,spit on
the other display these
characteristics.
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 01-30-2000).]
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I respectfully disagree. Fight Hitech in the F4U, or Wardog in the P51. You will see people who can take your Spit or 109 a lot of the time. These guys keep the fight tight and push you the whole time. A good 51 or Hawg pilot doesn't have to use speed to run, they can use it to zoom on you. Besides, a short extension doesn't mean the fight is over. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by jmccaul:
This is an intresting discussion because I think HTC should draw the line somewhere on uberplanes. Where do you put that line?
Very low production, limited service or few combat engagements all count.
Personally planes such as the Ta 152 (only a production run of 67 on all types I read somewhere) ,F7F, F8F, spit 21, meteor, sea fury the sort of planes which never really saw signicant combat due to being to late should not get into the game. I think we should see Tempest's (squadrons recieved them in spring '44, 1400 produced - only 400 naiper-sabre engined V's though) Spit 14's (spring '44) 190 D9 (a mid '44 I think, production run of about 800?)
Intrestingly the Me 262 would certainly have every right to be modeled under these circumstances that is just a question of play balance (do people want it available?)
The F4U-4 is also intresting due to the fact the pacific war went on much longer than the european conflict and so the -4 saw combat despite it's introduction in '45 (mid '45 ?) Which if the european conflict was still going on we might well have seen spit 21 etc in more significant numbers.
B]
..and N1K2 / C.205?
Pretty limited numbers of those also, its not an excuse anymore that Ta-152 built for few.. hell, they did kill for their quality (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Again we crash into the fact that there were 5 Shermans against one Tiger.. but Tiger was far more powerful than Sherman
So.. why shouldn't we have Ta-152 then?
1 Ta-152 vs. 10 P-51s.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Personally, I say that the P-47M, P-51H, Yak-3/VK108, Ki-100, Ta-152H, F8F-1, etc., should be the *next* set of planes that HTC models.
HTC needs to do something *different*. If they listen to most of the "numbers & impact" zealots and they'll get held hostage just like WB has been.
They should bust that barrier right now with a plane that was developed and built during WW2, but saw little combat or just missed it. The Macchi was a good start... now it's time to step forward once again.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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I'm with SnakeEyes on this one. Where's the fun of 'recreating' what's already been done, both in RL and in SIM form? I wanna intercept those friggin' backwards flying J7W's with a Sea Fury! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
or...they could release planes in pairs, like the F8f with the F4f type of thing?
[This message has been edited by wells (edited 01-30-2000).]
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Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
Personally, I say that the P-47M, P-51H, Yak-3/VK108, Ki-100, Ta-152H, F8F-1, etc., should be the *next* set of planes that HTC models.
HTC needs to do something *different*.
Sort of like a "Fantasy Arena/Planeset" in the tradition of fantasy football? This will look like an all out speed fest! :-) Sounds like the late war jets would fit in here too: the ME-262, Gloster Meteor, and the P-80 (which made it to England before war's end). I would love to see how the P-80's would have fared against the -262's. They wouldn't have nearly the advantage over the current plane in top speed and would be at a serious disadvantage in a turn fight or just about anything that didn't require a high speed dash. Wouldn't it be cool to see contrails?? =)
MiG
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Why not go the other way, and have the early/pre-war planes: I-16, P-36, D.520, Gladiator, CR.42 etc?
The late-war speed kings would probably be quite boring to dogfight really.
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First of all, it is necessary to have a lot information about a plane prior to model it. So, I suppose most of the planes we are talking about are out of scope.
I think that AHT should model as many planes as they are able to, except those that never enter into combat with enemy planes.
Having a me262 or me163 is a good idea, just to recreate the real WWII engangements. The main arena could be divided in three year sets: 39/41,42/43,44/45, filtering the available planes for each one except for 44/45 period.
From my personal point of view, I would designed the arena as follows:
1 - Three year sets.
2 - Two teams: axis and allies.
3 - Two scenaries: Europe(east,west and mediterranean front) and Pacific.
This way there are six sub-arenas historically tuned.
To make this possible we need more Pacific fighters, transports and bombers. Also more german bombers and transports and perhaps even figthers (190A3, 190D9). I think that several versions of P47/P51/P38 are also a must as well as hurricane and early Spit versions. I know, I know, I'm asking for a lot, but the very hard enemy to beat is just WarBirds, did you remember? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As a side note, it could be a great idea to have strategic targets like factories and fuel depots whose destruction could imply less % of fuel at the bases and less bombs and rockets. Radio coverage is another important factor.
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I know it's tempting to think about faster and faster aircraft, but what would really make this game stand out is field capture by ground vehicles (ie, tanks, flakpanzers, and troops in personnel carriers). Do this and you have a game no one else has done in the online community.
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leonid
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Why late aircraft and not early?
1) This is a business. Only a handful of airplane enthusiasts have probably heard of the P-36, I-16, and Brewster Buffalo. In contrast, even though they never flew in combat during WW2, many of the planes I mentioned are legendary aircraft. Rule #1... attract customers.
2) Learn from their WB experience. Even with the Rolling PlaneSet, people gravitate to the the "capable" aircraft, not the mediocre aircraft or the dregs. Granted, that doesn't mean that only "good" aircraft should be the only ones modeled. But right now I'd say that HTC doesn't need to be wasting effort on developing aircraft that won't be used (a la Warbirds - G4M, Ki43, Ju87D/G, SBD, TBF, etc.).
3) Product differentiation - Why do what everone else is doing? WW2Online is looking at the Western ETO early war (Battle of France and the Low Countries) with P-36s and all that, and WB already has early war 109s, Spits, and Hurricanes. Several (most) of the late war fantasy birds have never been modeled (precisely as a result of this narrow-minded "it had to see combat" BS).
PS - Thanks Wells!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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It's nice the way this thread really took off ":-)", but I'm still looking for an answer from the crew. Granted there were limited numbers of Ta152s, and Dora 9-13s, but they were flown during the last months of the war and in combat (agreed though in limited production). There were Ta152 and Dora Aces ( sorry I don't have my sources with me ). I'm quit sure you cannot say the same concerning the N1K, C.205, the 4X20mm F4U.
It would be interesting to know the criteria HTC crew is going to use for selecting aircraft to model.
<< Crosses fingers X !>>
Horrido!
Scot
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I wouldn't be so sure about the ace thing on N1K2J, C205V, or F4U-1C. Someone will pop some history on ya here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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There was exactly one recorded Ta152 ace. I'll look up his name...
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Oberfeldwebel Josef Keil of JG301.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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That's right SnakeEyes, it was Josef Keil.. he even got the first 'stang for the Ta-152h. I would also love to see the Dora in the planeset, and the Ta-152h-1 would be super! But I'm not going to hold my breath for it seeing as how these things normally go. I'd feel funny the day it comes out when everyone else who's heard of the 152 gives it a try and then we get all the "152 dweeb" stuff flying around. For me, I'm satisfied with the A8 for now. I fly it about 95% of the time, the other 5% being the 109g10, and I've begun to learn that as long as I don't do something really stupid I can live long enuf to get a couple kills each sortie. But a Dora would be really appreciated (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I agree with leonid's point about the ground vehicles. I think that would put AH into a whole new level. Remember back in the Falcon3.0 days, when SH had the "Virtual Battlefield" idea thrown around? They got as far as two other flight sims I think and that's it. So if HTC is reading, you get my vote for some ground vehicles.. I can wait a little longer for another Fw/Ta (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)Besides, I think the LW will have to wait our turn again since we just got the cornucopia of 109's.. the other countries need some more planes too. Let's wait and see what happens..
mauser
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What would the consequences of adding 262 be ? Many would try it, but it is no plane for furball types (predominant in the arena). Not even a good E fighter (great E loss in turns, poor E income). Not even a good BnZ plane, to easy to dodge. Not even for spray and pray shooters, to short range. Not for climbing, fuel multiplier would limit that. Not even for vulching, if you overlook a Spit that just took off, he will climb to you and kill you.
In short, it wouldn't hurt dogfights all that much.
But as a buff hunter, well... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also, incredibly good for annoying purposes and dragging multiple enemies away from their targets.
It served in significant numbers, was introduced in 1944, it made many kills, many were shot down also.
OTOH, Meteor or P-80 were not there. They are in He-162 and Do-335 class, as far as I am concerned. Close, but not in combat. Even ME 163 would deserve to get modeled before, judging by operational record.
Ta-152 ? It would have similar effect as cannon Hog, IMO. But damn, the plane really has such a charisma for LW types, it deserves to get modeled for that single reason.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 02-01-2000).]
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Yes, but the F4U-1C isn't 35-90mph faster than the current planes in AH.
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And it doesn't have to be, with all that effective killing range (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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funked,
Sorry for the long silence. The La-9 was never put into serial production, and I believe only 16 were built in 1946. The next Lavochkin to come out after the La-7 in big numbers was the La-11 in 1948. Over 1800 were built, some seeing service in the Korean war.
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leonid
129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Here you can find good reviews of 190A/D and Ta 152 series.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/)
Hope you enjoy it...
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The biggest reason why I would fly the 262 is survivability. No one can touch a carefully flown 262. A pair of 262s can dominate a furball. They're so fast that no one can catch them, and with the 4x 30mm cannons, one ping is enough to disable any fighter. With 262s above the furball, the enemies have to keep a close eye on them.
But like you said Hristo, the 262 isn't the best fighter for a dogfight. If you stick in the fight for too long, you'll find yourself low on E pretty fast. You really have to know how to fly it to be effective. Not to mention the need to choose your takeoff and landing airbases carefully!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But as a buff interceptor, the 262 simply rules! Can you say 24x R4M rockets?
There was some discussion of arranging massive bombing raid missions... 60 bombers... 10x 262's could wreak some havoc amongst them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage:
There was some discussion of arranging massive bombing raid missions... 60 bombers... 10x 262's could wreak some havoc amongst them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Camo, I'd like to do it ! Give me a call, so we show those Corsairs how to shoot down a buff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Still, we will wait for the 262, I believe. It has a priority of a Go 229, it seems (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Pongo carefully snips
Hristo
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OTOH, Meteor or P-80 were not there. They are in He-162 and Do-335 class, as far as I am concerned. Close, but not in combat. Even ME 163 would deserve to get modeled before, judging by operational record.
"
I believe the Meteor was in combat in WW2 just not against the 262.
I agree totaly with your description of the 262s effect in AH. I would think that the increased coordination of the buffs guns combined with the short range of the 108s might cause a high loss rate on intercepting 262s....
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Pongo
Musketeer Escadrille
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oops
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 02-01-2000).]
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Dolomite :
I see your point a good pilot can
still throw a P51 or F4U around in
a dogfight but they are not using
there speed in that situation the
only time it becomes useful is
running or chasing. The 51 is quick
which is a major asset but yet
it isn't used in a 1v1 dogfight.
I'd say a 109 or spit would be able
to get the upper hand on the F4U or
P51 in most cases in a co-e level
merge.
Fishu :
N1k2 and c205 were a stratergy by
HTC to get exotic planes whicch
represent certain countries and
you could certainly argue that the
Ta 152 should be included but i
just think it would be opening a
can of worms, as you well know if
you include the Ta 152 you can
include 5 other planes from
various countries which are
similarily uber.
The Luftwaffe would though
benefit most from this trend though
but in real life much of these
planes were pushed into service
perhaps before they should have
been and fought aginst heavy odds
none of this wouldn't be
represnted.
I did say personally i would
not like to see them modeled and
would like to see a line drawn at
aircraft in service in late 44 and
have numbers well past the 100 mark.
Rather than HTC concentrating on
these planes fill out the important
set. How can you have a plane like
the Ta 152 (67 produced - all varients)
and leave the most produced warplane
in history plane Il-2 Shturmovik.
On the 262 it has every right to be
modeled under these criteria but if
you fly it you need never die pit your
nose down and your away, hardly the
ultimate test of skill. Do people really want it? if yes model it then but i'd
rather HTC didn't (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
P.S. I'm pretty sure the meteor made
combat (i'll try and dig up the
reference) but was not as an advanced
a design as the 262.
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oops
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 02-01-2000).]
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Jmccaul-
In a co-E engagement you are right. In a co-alt position where the 51 or F4 holds speed advantage, not necessarily. The speed can be traded for alt, and then the opposing fighter is in trouble. This isn't running, this is getting enough separation to reverse. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You may be right about the 262 diving to safety, except consider this; the other side can fly 262's, too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Finally, the P-80 developed into a much better all-around fighter than the 262, and would have handed the 262 pilots their heads. The P-80 was only marginally slower but had much better handling.
[This message has been edited by dolomite (edited 02-01-2000).]
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Hmm, I thought that some 150 Ta 152 were built.
That plane represents something else than just getting an edge for LW pilots in the arena. It has certain mythical and what-if meaning. Similar with 262. Its reputation is unquestionable, even after almost 60 years.
Luftwaffe in 1944 was not just 109s and 190s, with the best planes being 109G-10 and 190A-8.
I know, neither RAF consisted of Spit IXs, there were later Marks.
US, however, seems to have its 1944 top birds (with P 38 on the way, it misses only the Jug).
Both RAF and Luftwaffe miss the best (and used in the field) performers of 1944.
Adding 109F and early G feels be like adding P 40 or P 39 to the 1944 arena. Only for sentimental purposes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now, please model the 1944, HTC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 02-01-2000).]
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Dolomite :-
If a plane has an advantage it can
exploit it but if you give the example
of coming into the fight quicker i
could counter by saying the better
climb plane would come in higher (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Speed i still don't think top speed is
an asset in dogfight as to use it you
have to accelerate to your top speed
which you cannot do in a dogfight for extended periods. If you extend untill
you reach top speed i will be climbing
at 150 ias all this time and when
you reverse i will be much higher and
you will use your speed to run.
(http://canopus.lpi.msk.su/~watson/wwii/meteor.jpg)
I think your confusing the Glouster
Meteor with the P-80. The Glouster was inferior to the 262 but did make it
into the war:-
---------------------------
The Gloster Meteor Mk.I was the
first operational British jet fighter,
and the first operational Allied jet fighter. It entered service with
616 Squadron in 1944, at about the same
time the Messerschmitt Me-262 was
entering service with Kdo262 (Later
Kommando Nowotny).
---------------------------
Hristo :-
I know why you'd like to see it i
personally wouldn't put any of those
sort of planes in (including the tempest) untill there wasn't any other planes
which made much more impact.
To be honest which Scenario would you
prefer BoB or taking off from a vulched field in a Ta 152 with a 5 to 1 numbers deficet. I just think HTC would make me happier personally if they concentrated
on scenario plane instead of main arena planes. I think though i am in the minority.
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 02-01-2000).]
-
"By VE-day, two P-80's were in Italy readying for combat, two had reached England, and in all no fewer than 16 examples were flying."
Fighters of the U.S. Air Force, Robert F. Dohr, 1990
Ultimately the P/F-80 developed into a much better fighter, reaching 594 mph, and remaining in service in some form until October of 1955.
Won't argue on the speed thang anymo'! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Originally posted by jmccaul:
I just think HTC would make me happier personally if they concentrated
on scenario plane instead of main arena planes. I think though i am in the minority.
:-
Agree with you. The main arena have several serious problems from my point of view:
1 - Sooner ot later all the people will be flying a very small set of planes. Obviously, if planes like Ta 152, Spit XIV or Tempest enter the main arena, no one will be willing to fly 109F, 109G2, 109G6, 190A8 , C.205, etc. All of them were very valuable for their time, but not in late 44 or 45.
2 - 109 vd 190? Spit vs P51? It doesn't seem to be much real, right?
And now some ideas to get out of those problems:
1 - Two teams (T1 and T2) distributed in the terrain as follows:
GGGGKKKAAAJJJJ
GGGGKKKAAAJJJJ
GGGGRRAAAAJJJJ
GGGGRRRAAAJJJJ
GGGGRRRRRAJJJJ
GGGGRRRRRRJJJJ
G (T1): Bases with only german/italian planes.
A (T2): Bases with only USA planes.
K (T2): Bases with only UK planes.
R (T2): Bases with only russian planes.
J (T1): Bases with only japanese planes.
So, depending on the base you choice, you will have only a subset of the aircraft availabe to fly. And this is true unless you loose the base, in that case the base is owned by the sub-side that dropped the paratroops. So, for example, if a base in the russian zone is taken by a plane that took off from a japanese base, then that base will be owned by the axis, but have only japanese planes available.
2 - Year cycling. With the first point, the problem of Spit vs Spit was solved, but remains the problem of all the people just flying the best and newest aircraft available to each side. To solve this, simply create three year-sets: 39/41, 42/43, 44/45. And rotate them evey hour or so. This way, the aircraft available in each base is limited by its owner and by the time.
3 - But this is not enough. For each period, the people will be abusing of the top models for the corresponding years. Lets take into account the normal number of available aircraft of each type during those periods. So, having 60 people playing axis side in 44/45 period, perhaps only 5 of them can be flying the Ta 152. If all the 5 Ta 152 are flying, I'll see its name grayed in my hangar display.
From my point of view, all these changes are very easy to implement, and, perhaps, with them planes like 109F could have a long life in AH.
-
Hristo: Buffing sounds good. I'll msg you if
I see you on the arena. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
About the Meteor: It was in service, but
didn't score any kills. I don't think they
even saw, and thus ever engaged any enemy
aircraft...
Mandoble: That sounds like an interesting idea!
1 - Two teams (T1 and T2) distributed
in the terrain as follows: ....
The allies would be forced into a two-front
war, but that's how it was back then...
There's usually more allied pilots online
anyway, so that might even work!
2 - Year cycling. ...
I think a rolling plane set in the lines of
WB would work better, maybe a bit faster
though. Each day would represent a period
of, say, about 1 year. This way the whole
war could be played in about one week. New
planes each day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
...having 60 people playing axis side
in 44/45 period, perhaps only 5 of them can
be flying the Ta 152. If all the 5 Ta 152
are flying, I'll see its name grayed in my
hangar display...
I think it is a bit unfair to limit the
better planes to just those who happen to be
in the arena sooner.
IMHO, it would be better to let each player
have 1 of each überplane per hour. If you
manage to land the plane, you can take off
in it again. If you crash it, you're forced
to fly the older models for the next hour!
And if it wasn't clear, I'm in favor of the
two country arena. Axis vs allies! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Camo
------------------
Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
-
LLv34_Camouflage:
Another (and similar) idea about limiting super-plane numbers:
You dont need to be limited to one hour per
super-plane. You can use your super-plane as many times as you want. But you have a limited number of them per hour, for example two. If you loose your two super-planes you must to wait another hour to have them available.
Another benefict of having two teams (subdivided in 5) is to be able to eliminate the labels, except squadron and wingman ones.
Visual ID will be needed, german/italian/japanese? Then axis, else ally.
About the plane/period calibrated to one year per day, there is a big problem with the different local timesets, that usually determinates the time when you are able to fly. It should be quicker, perhaps a 2 years
per hour. This way you'll be sure to be able to fly any plane in a period of three hours
the only available day in the week you have
to play AH (for example).
-
"TA-152 and Dora?? Who wants a plane that anyone, even a rookie, can look good in? Let's get with a plane only REAL MEN can fly,"
Uhhhh You must be thinking of the spitfire.
Real men fly 190's
------------------
May all spitfires explode on takeoff!
[This message has been edited by JoeMud (edited 02-02-2000).]
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Mandoble:
Re: Ûberplanes availability:
Yep, your suggestion is similar to mine, sounds good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Re: Icons
I don't recommend turning off enemy icons.
Hardware becomes an issue otherwise.
A player with 640x480 would be in a much
worse situation than a player using
1600x1200...
I suggest enemy icons to pop up at shorter
ranges, say 2k. Range would be visible from
500yds. And this one is a must: Put the
icon below the plane!! It is too easy to
track your shots - just keep the icon in your
gunsight!
Re: Rolling planeset:
Two years per hour is way too short.
My average sortie takes over half an hour.
Consider "early -42" in a FW190A4. The worst
opponent would be a SpitV. I take off from a
rear field, grab alt and head for the action
20 mins later. By now the year has changed
and I'm facing SpitIX's... For buffers this
would be untolerable. They take off in early
1944, and when they get to the target area,
they're facing Me262s...
That short a planeset change time is
unacceptable, imho.
Timezone difference doesn't matter, because
it is the same everywhere. A 24 hr period is
a 24hr period all around the world.
When the player base gets bigger, I hope HTC
will introduce several arenas, with different
theaters of operation and timeframes. Maybe
two of these would be open at a time, to keep
player levels high. This is pretty much the
same as a rolling plane set.
And then a separate historical arena with
Axis vs Allies, limited icon ranges (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
JoeMud: Well said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Camo
-
Leonid said =
===============================
All I know is if this uberplane
stuff continues, then I'm going to
be demanding the all-metal version of
the Yak-3, which was the fastest prop aircraft in history at something like
463mph.
================================
To which westy replied
================================
Sorry Leonid. The P47 M beat
that.
Bring em *all* out!
================================
Bring them all out ?
I don't know about that but here's one
at least
===========
The Sabre VII-powered Fury was perhaps
the fastest piston-engine aircraft ever built by Hawker, possessing a maximum
speed of 485 mph at 18,500 feet and 457
mph at 8000 feet. Range with two drop
tanks was 1480 miles. Initial climb rate
was 5240 feet, and an altitude of 24,000 feet could be attained in 6 minutes.
Service ceiling was 41,500 feet.
Weights were 9350 lbs empty, 12,130 lbs loaded. Armament consisted of four
20-mm Hispano Mk. V cannon in the
wings.
============================
(Were Mk. V Hispano cannons used on
any planes that made it in to the war?)
more on the engine
============================
3055 hp Napier Sabre VII twenty-four-cylinder liquid-cooled horizontal-H
engine.
============================
Imagine having that strapped to you.
Never made the war though but if it did
i wonder who would be more scared the
pilot or the opposition. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
The Tempest had Mk V Hispanos.
Hawker Sea Fury FB.11's of the RN and RAN flew huge numbers of A2G sorties during the Korean war and the RN ones shot down at least one Mig-15.
Forgot to mention, that the Hawker Fury was developed based on knowledge gleaned from Arnim Faber's captured Fw190A-3! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 02-03-2000).]
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Wasn't the Grumman F8F Bearcat designed after Grumman himself studied the same captured Fw190?
Pretty sure.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
-
That Fury was one mean and wicked aeroplane!
-Westy
-
Don't know about whether Grumman was influenced by the 190, or merely aspects of it. The F8F was designed as a Kamikaze interceptor, pure and simple. The Navy needed something that could climb fast and be quick enough to run down the enemy. They basically took the F6F and reduced it in size and weight. (Ironic, as the F6F started life as an upsized F4F). The standard Grumman planform is very evident in all their projects. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The F8F only carried 4x.50's, as this was adequate to deal with the Japanese a/c they would have faced (and it saved a little weight). Later F8F's had the cannons.
If AH ever turns one of these puppies loose, that will be the end of any other type being flown. What was it, sea level to 10,000 feet in 90 seconds? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
-
Well, the F2G, the Corsair kamikaze interceptor had, I think, a 4000 fpm climb rate from sealevel. Only three made? (No more kamikazes).
------------------
Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X
-
After flying the beta arena for several
weeks, I have some conclusions about
plane-set balance (related only to top
performers):
AXIS:
190A8: Medium/long range missions.
Superb high speed handling.
Poor low/medium speed handling.
Average climber.
Average+ top speed.
109G10: Medium range missions.
Very poor high speed handling.
Poor/average low/medium speed handl.
Great climber.
Average++ top speed.
(autotrim avobe 20000 is impossible).
ALLIES:
P51D: Long/very long range missions.
Good high speed handling.
Good medium/low speed handling.
Average+ climber.
Great top speed.
Spit IX: Medium range missions.
Good high speed handling.
Impressive medium/low speed handl.
Average++ climber.
Average+ top speed.
I haven't included earlier versions of 109 because they aren't a match for the P51 (can outaccelerate and outrun all of them).
Respect the Spit vs earlier 109 versions, the
Spit have a similar top speed/acceleration/
climb rate, but it can outturn any 109.
Of course, these are my impressions. But
taking them into account, it seems that the
axis plane-set absolutely needs 190D9 to be
able to compensate the mayor P51D advantage.
Ta152 is also a good idea, but remember that this plane is not a good performer at low alt. P51D can outrun Ta152 from medium alt
to SL. But Ta152 could be a very good choice for high flying bomber interception.