Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: hazed- on April 16, 2001, 09:21:00 PM
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Ok i have just been on tonight and was very annoyed when i had a real fun sortie in a ju88 cut short.I was attacked several times by 109 and a spit but managed to hold on then i see an f4uc at about 800 diving in.i see tracers ping ping ping boom dead in tower.fun over (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I got annoyed and took F4c up for a flight to see if it had good e retention etc.
I tested the rudder and held it on full to my left and started a slide which to my utter surprise kept going so i adjusted ailerons to keep on level with horizon and i CONTINUED around! I did a complete 360 with a loss of 150 mph or so! the slowest it went ,even backwards! was 200 mph.
If at any point during this manouver you would like to go straight you can release joystick and pull out with speed.
This is terrible!
I then shot down a bomber by passing at 90 degrees where i used the rudder to gain final shot on bomber.this felt too easy 5 or so hits blew b17 to peices.Then i attacked a 2nd b17 and went headon but weaved my approach.there was many hits on b17s wing and it caught fire.
My right wing took hits and I lost half the wing.i then dived and tried the rudder again and i could fly easily with half a wing rudder seemed to work but not to slow the plane.
Please i would request HTC to test for theirselves.
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 04-16-2001).]
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I too have been curious why some aircraft, F4U and P-47, can fly so easily with a heavily damaged wing but others, Bf109, Spitfire, ect., act as though they've lost the whole wing.
It makes me suspicious of the respective flight models.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Hazed can you film this maneuver? It sounds just like a wings-level turn which just about any plane can do in real life.
Karnak why do you think that different planes would not react differently to losing half of a wing?
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funked,
They aren't losing half a wing, it is representative of heavy damgae to that wing.
In either case, yes, I do think they'd react differently, but I'd be surprised if the difference was that one was easy to fly and the others were impossible. Currently that is what it is.
Now if HTC is certain about how it works, fine, but think they might want to look at certain flight models with damaged wings. Thats all I'm saying.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by funked:
Hazed can you film this maneuver? It sounds just like a wings-level turn which just about any plane can do in real life.
Karnak why do you think that different planes would not react differently to losing half of a wing?
Funked,
Read his post again. No plane in real world will do a flat 360 degree turn including flying backwards and still have forward velocity. None should in this game either.
Mav
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Yeah right, he flew backwards...
Sounds like he did a "boat turn", a wings-level turn using rudder, which any plane should be able to do.
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*yawn*
how many such threads theres been already and still things are the same...?
I've already lost interest to that, since no change seems to happen, no matter how many complains.
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Regarding damage model, I am *pretty sure* that's it's a binary thing - either the wingtip is on or it ain't.
All planes I fly behave the 'exact same way* when they lose a wingtip. In the case of the 109, I usually auger. in 190, I can usually get home and land.
Personal evidence like this from myself and others lead me to believe that the claim that the graphical representation is different from the actual damage is a bogus one.
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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Mav, I'm not sure what he's saying, which is why I asked him for a film.
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109 flies ok with wingtip missing - but landing is a bit hairy, still possible... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Piece of cake in 190. Although F4U seem to fly as nothing happened with wingtip gone. They even go faster... someone called it the clipped-wing-phenomenon - right on spot!!! If I would fly F4U I'd remove the wingtips on take off... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Back on the missing wing topic:
Loss of wing area on one side (e.g. right side) of the aircraft does the following:
1. It reduces the drag on the right side of the aircraft. This results in a nose-left yawing moment which creates a nose-left slip angle unless countered by use of right rudder (rudder deflected trailing edge left). If the aircraft has dihedral, the slip angle will create a left-wing-down rolling moment. The right rudder deflection will also create a left-wing-down rolling moment.
2. It reduces the lift on the right side of the aircraft. This creates a right-wing-down rolling moment, which can be countered by reducing the lift on the left wing. This lift reduction is accomplished by "left" aileron, i.e. the left aileron is deflected trailing edge up.
Note that the required amount of this aileron deflection is reduced slightly by the the aforementioned rolling moments due to the dihedral and rudder deflection. And the reduction of lift on the left wing (due to aileron deflection) reduces induced drag on that side and thus balances some of the yawing moment. So the rudder and the ailerons "help" each other.
There is also a side-force equilibrium to consider. A nose-left slip and right rudder deflection both result in a side force which pushes the aircraft to the left. This can be balanced by a small right-wing-down bank angle. The bank angle means that a slightly higher lift coefficient is required for level flight, which is obtained by deflection the elevator trailing-edge up.
If the aircraft is able to balance out all of these moments and forces by control deflections it is said to be trimmable.
The conditions described above favor an aircraft which has very effective ailerons. This aircraft will be able to most easily reduce lift and induced drag on the left wing.
Our conditions also favor an aircraft which generates small side forces for a given rudder deflection or slip angle, but has significant dihedral and a significant rolling moment due to rudder deflection.
It is the combination of all of these factors which determines whether the aircraft is trimmable or not. These factors all are very sensitive to the size and shape of each part of the airframe (the powerplant plays a role too), so every aircraft will require different balance of these factors to reach equilibrium
Remember that these factors all change with airspeed and altitude. In particular, aileron effectiveness is greatly decreased at very high indicated airspeeds for aircraft of the type in Aces High, and is usually decreased at very low IAS. So the trimmability problem can change greatly depending on your height or speed.
To sum it up, trimmability in this case depends on several factors which are very sensitive to the design of the aircraft and the airspeed/altitude condition for which one wishes to trim. If any one of these factors is not right, then the aircraft can become unflyable. Some aircraft may be trimmable for all conditions, some may be trimmable only for a limited part of the flight envelope, and some may not be trimmable under any conditions.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-17-2001).]
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Excellent explanation Funked! <S>
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funked this is an impossible move.try it yourself.
fly level in f4c at a fair pace say 300 then apply rudder full either way correct with slight aileron to keep yourself level and you can slowy go all the way around.
I have film which i will email you funked.
I dont know how to post film so maybe you could do it for me?
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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Uhhh. hazed. I did it. And it is entirely possible. In fact, it's supposed to do that.
but "flying backwards" I haven't seen.
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ok dinger now try it with the b17..........are you telling me that a b17 can do this too? Well it can in AH.
Seems those american planes were really the first to defy gravity and drag. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
and why doesnt any other plane behave in this way? those pesky english/german/japanese just werent clever enough to design a plane like the super F4c!
<hears american anthem>
america,america ...land of the free!!..
please for 2 minuites stop thinking this is an attack on your precious F4u i just dont want to fight a plane with a screwed FM that makes it easier to get kills.
Im here to play a REALISTIC game.this manouver is impossible unless you were flying a stuntplane.the f4c is no stuntplane and was notorious as a very tricky plane to master.'the ensign killer' was its nick name?
In AH it is too easy to fly and has the most powerfull guns in the game.Everyone flies it and its pretty much all we ever see.I am JUST asking for it to be looked at and quite frankly i dont care what other peoples opinions are i would like to hear from HTC.
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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Hazed, as soon as you went and took up that pathetic nationalistic conspiracy tone in your post you probably lost what hope we'd get for this to be seriously checked out. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I heard you talk about this for about 45 minutes last night while you were testing. I can also recall at least four people say "film it!!" I have to ask, did you? It would certainly help cleared up any question on what it was you were seeing.
[This message has been edited by Squidzilla (edited 04-17-2001).]
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I still don't understand what excatly is impossible? Is hazed saying that it is impossible to turn 360 using rudder only? If so, he's gotta be joking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
mx22
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Please send it to me Hazed: funkedup@raf303.org
I'll post it on my web site.
I'm not going to say if it's possible or impossible until I see it, because I'm not totally sure what you are describing.
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hazed, did you even try any non-american planes? Or did you test only the f4u and b17 and then declare that only uber-porked american planes can do it.
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Hazed,
"ensign killer" is really not a valid point.
When the RAF first got the Hurricane, the sqads that got it talked it up as a killer plane that had to be watched constantly lest it go out of control, just to make themselves out to be the best of the best. In fact the Hurricane is about as docile as a fighter can get. Bob Tuck was certain that several trainees were killed in Hurricane crashes because they were so nervous on their first flight in the "pilot killer" Hurricane that they messed up and fulfilled their fear.
This is, of course, proof that the Hurricane is a vicious aircraft and if it isn't modeled as such, it'll be porked. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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HT needs to explain lifting points(a place on the wing, not a value) again I see (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Speaking of planes flying while missing half a wing:
(http://www.raf303.org/alexei/toughie.jpg)
I had this picture in my collection for a while and can't recal for sure now if it was a collision or damage due to enemy fire... I think it was a collision with a Spitfire...
mx22
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Thats not anywhere near half a wing, its barely the last foot or so of the 190s wingtip. When the wing is shot off in AH it literally takes 1/2 of that wihng side, its not a bad DM model because the planes always fly the same when wing is shot off- some fly just fine others crash 100% of thime every time no matter what.
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Well, grunherz, if you listened to funked, that might be right.
I of course have not analyzed a half wigless 109 but it may be possible that it is un trimmable. While the f4u may be trimmable.
My biggest problem is that I think wings fall off way too much in aces high. I think we should have more fires and less wings falling off.
Somewhere i read the only effective .50 cal ammunition was the incindiary in a study after the war i think..... and from most accounts ove read of american pilots they dont say "i sawed off his wing" but "i shot into his engine block and he started smoking and bailed"
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that was a joke about the USAAF stuff but this wont be looked into anyhow.Im going to be told this is normal for planes and im not going to beleive you that an F4uc could pull this manouver so easily.
What im trying to tell you people is YES rudder turns are possible and were used to avoid AA fire and present a smaller target.What they could NOT do is 'it' in such a small turning circle.The B17 can shallow dive rudder completely around and fly out 180degrees in what cant be more than a b17s width.
I cant be bothered to be honest.Things wont change and im fed up with the BB.If you're gonna tell me this is normal then OK OK ITS NORMAL.
I know what i think it is and ive never been able to do it on any other sim and it isnt possible on any of the other planes ive tested so far in AH.Only f4uc and b17 so far and no i havent tested all, i only just found it out.
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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Hazed, first of all, I agree with what you said about the B17. It did a level turn starting from 220 mph at 6000 some odd feetfeet. It took 13 seconds to reach 180 degrees from the start of the turn. I lost about 70 mph indicated. This is entirely too fast. Anyway, I did some math and it works out to about an 1200 foot radius, and at an average velocity of 200 mph, this is a 2.7 G boat type, wings level turn... the loss of speed was pretty high, but I don't think a plane like a B-17 with leg powered rudder, would ever have the authority to skid this hard, and I don't think the fuselage would create that much side lift. A wings level turn should be possible in any aircraft, but 2.6 G's on a bomber that is only at about 2 times stall speed? The wings could barely generate 4 g's at this speed, so there's no way the fuselage-rudder-engine trust vector combination could come anywhere close to a 2.5 or 3 G turn.
As for the F4u 1c, i came up with about a 3 degree per second turn at about 300 mph. This worked out to about a 1.3-1.4 G turn. The radius worked out to about 9500 feet, and the lateral G load about .76 G's. I think a Corsair fuselage-vert stab- trust vector component could equal .76 G's at 300 mph.
**B-17 6000 some feet, 220 mph, 1200 foot **radius turn at 2.6 G's lateral **acceleration.
**F4u1c, similar altitide, 300 mph, 9500 **foot radius, .76 G's lateral acceleration
Looks like the B17 could need some looking into. The F4u1c seems within the realm of reasonableness, otherwise known as TLAR (That looks about right!).
As for missing wing panels and being able to land, I guess it depends on what the damage display represents, and the aircraft's roll authority. Fast rolling planes like the 190 and F4u, and even the mustang seem to have no problem, while planes with less aileron authority have more trouble. Seems reasonable too right? Also consider that even if half of the wing is missing, the root portion of the wing is probably where these planes get most of their lift since they have more than half of the area, the airfoil is thicker, the flaps are located here, and the other wing tip can easily dump it's lift with the aileron. Dihedral angle and side slip further contribute to being able to maintaining attitude.
Also I've lost the wing tip on the F4u many times and was never able to trim it to fly hands off with the missing wing tip.
Originally posted by hazed-:
that was a joke about the USAAF stuff but this wont be looked into anyhow.Im going to be told this is normal for planes and im not going to beleive you that an F4uc could pull this manouver so easily.
What im trying to tell you people is YES rudder turns are possible and were used to avoid AA fire and present a smaller target.What they could NOT do is 'it' in such a small turning circle.The B17 can shallow dive rudder completely around and fly out 180degrees in what cant be more than a b17s width.
I cant be bothered to be honest.Things wont change and im fed up with the BB.If you're gonna tell me this is normal then OK OK ITS NORMAL.
I know what i think it is and ive never been able to do it on any other sim and it isnt possible on any of the other planes ive tested so far in AH.Only f4uc and b17 so far and no i havent tested all, i only just found it out.
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Thanks for the clarification hazed.
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thnx CJ this fuselage lift is what i think is the part that feels totally unreal.
Skidding sideways at 200mph and just letting go of rudder with no adverse affect etc.The ease with which the manouver can be performed etc is what im worried about.IF like you say the f4uc was capable of these incredible manouvers then im astounded.Nothing ive read has ever led me to think this aircraft could perform this stuff with such ease.but i cant produce figures so i gotta bite my lip.
may as well forget all about it.
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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Originally posted by hazed-:
thnx CJ this fuselage lift is what i think is the part that feels totally unreal.
Skidding sideways at 200mph and just letting go of rudder with no adverse affect etc.The ease with which the manouver can be performed etc is what im worried about.IF like you say the f4uc was capable of these incredible manouvers then im astounded.Nothing ive read has ever led me to think this aircraft could perform this stuff with such ease.but i cant produce figures so i gotta bite my lip.
may as well forget all about it.
Well, I've performed level, zero bank turns in my 1946 Stinson 108 at 120 mph, so i don't see why it would be much more difficult in an F4u. Yes it would involve higher control forces than on the simulator, but I don't think it's something someone couldn't do. Besides, have you seen knife edge flight at airshows? They roll a plane 90 degrees and maintain altitude all the way across the run using a modest-heafty amount of rudder deflection. That's 1 G.
CJ
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There's just a tiny fraction missing from the FW's wing in that picture...and even though all the FW's had sturdy wings, the outter cannon ammuntion would often blown the middle of the wing off if hit.
AFAIK, thats really the only reason the FW would lose a wing with reasonable regularity...it often comes up in gun camera footage.
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I create what hazed says,
is not necessary a film, I have seen things of those.
a greeting
Supongo (the 109 defender)
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CJ how much does your plane weigh? Maybe 2000-3000lbs loaded? Whats its wing loading? Whats its stall speed? I dont belive there can be any comparison...
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Hazed, the only thing you did wrong (if you did anything wrong at all) is not film it.
[This message has been edited by Squidzilla (edited 04-18-2001).]
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RAE did tests of Bf 109E, Ju 88, and He 111 doing flat (wings level) turns. They all did about 2 deg/sec at about 180 mph. It's a maneuver that all of the planes should be able to do.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-18-2001).]
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So does it work in other AH planes? 109s, 190s, la5s, spits?
If it doesnt then something is wrong.
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I ran some quick tests just over sea level with 50% fuel in each plane.
Comparison of some AH planes in flat rudder turn right 180dgr with full power.
190f8 50sec at 180mph
109g6 55-60sec at 200mph
La5fn 50sec at 200mph
P51d 50sec at 200mph
SpitIX 45sec 220mph
F4u1-c 45sec at 190-200mph
B17G 13-15sec at 120mph
Ju88a4 60sec at 140mph
F4u looks completely normal here. I guess hazed was talking about something else.
Whats up with that b17? :O
Also Ju88 is bit far from 20dgr/sec that funked posted. In AH its more like 3dgr/sec.(with 180mph even less i think)
[This message has been edited by illo (edited 04-18-2001).]
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I think Funked made a typo...should be 2 deg/sec (120 deg/min).
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Wells I didn't make a typo, I just can't divide.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-19-2001).]
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B-17G Rudder Turn Rate Too High.
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What about our other bombers? Do the Lancaster or B-26 rudder turn too fast as well? Because the Lanc is also a 4 engined bomber, I'd be curious to see the results on it.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Karnak you idiot! Lanc is not an US bomber! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Its not about how many motors it has, its all about national markings. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
...thats what rudderturn is all about.
ps. use same formula for perk planes. How many US planes are perked?