Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Minotaur on January 29, 2000, 11:07:00 PM
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For the sake of continuity: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000173.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000173.html)
Just for Juzz (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p38-16.jpg)
The "Droop Snout" P-38 had a Norden bomb sight installed. One Droop Snout would often lead a squadron, for a bombing mission. When the Droop Snout dropped its bombs so did everyone else.
This plane is painted BRIGHT red. I will see if I can find a color photo.
Yippee
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p38-18.jpg)
This was actually how I felt about the soon to be released P-38 in Ah. I am hoping to get a late model variant (J or L), so it will more readily compete in the current arena.
P-38G Cockpit
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p38cp-1.jpg)
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p38cp-2.jpg)
(http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p38cp-3.jpg)
All I need is the Yoke, Throttles, and Gun Triggers. Then I will be ready to go! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-04-2000).]
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Wheres my dora or ta-152 etc. uber crap to compensate against P38, N1K2 and other uber crap?
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Hmm, the only thing uber about P-38 is its uber size for a fighter. Makes a nice target for deflection shots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now seriously, LW needs some famed fighter, not just ordinary 109s and 190s. Anything exotic will do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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If accurately modelled, the P-38's here may be as inneffective here as they were in the pure fighter roll over Europe. The AH arena is far closer to a European one than a south Pacific environment (with its lightly armored and slow enemy airplanes). From gun camera films I've seen, they were quite effective for the low level interdiction (Jabo) role being able to carry lots of stores along with the two engine redunancy for a measure of survivability against flak/AAA. Jabo's, in AH, are pretty much a non-event at this stage.
The one "uber" (I hate that word ;-) )thing about the P-38 will be the sheer numbers of people flying them upon their introduction and the discussions that will result in these message boards. Get ready for a rollicking good time!
MiG
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Certainly this is a must have plane for 1944?
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Pongo
Musketeer Escadrille
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Certainly this is a must have plane for 1944?
The P-38 was actually introduced from the beginning of the war through it's end. First produced in 1933-39. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) So yeah it's part of the ERA whichever one and arena you pick.
Also, I think YIPEE was painted RED after the war. Kinda dumb advertising yerself more than is needed in combat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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O.E. 'Tern' Dillon
"Live to Fly! Fly to Fight! Fight to Live!"
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Thanks for the pics Mino!
Never really saw the inside of a P38 cockpit before and it looks like one helluva busy place!
-westy
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Notice it says P-38?
Count forward P-38, 39, 40, 47, 51 etc....
This plane has as much sigificance as the 109, for the years of use.
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-03-2000).]
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Some of the more famous decendents of the P-38 and the "Skunkworks".
Check it out: http://www.skunkworks.net/ (http://www.skunkworks.net/)
Mino
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Which versions of the P-38 should be featured in AH?
Early: P-38G - or the more powerful; but later and lesser produced P-38H?
Mid: P-38J - I don't think it should have the boosted ailerons and dive flaps, as only a relatively small number of J's produced had these features.
Late: P-38L
And I wouldn't say no to a droop snoot version of the J and/or L! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I do not desire a plane that creates arena imbalance. Just give me the correct FM modeled to the rivet. I won't complain about any variant. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
For the current plane set in the arena, I lean towards the J or L. So that it will be flown, not ignored. Mostly so that it will have the ability to compete.
Get this memorized, before preflight
(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/38TOCL.gif)
(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-38/38SEFC.gif)
Drone gunnery practice next Tuesday
(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-38/38BSC.gif)
BTW Pyro could you interpret this chart for me. The distance numbers seem backwards. My guess is the gun would be placed to the left. The chart shows projectile drop.
Reference: http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/More_P-38_Stuff.html (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/More_P-38_Stuff.html)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-04-2000).]
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Guns on the right. It shows how far in inches, above or below the sight line(boresight?) the bullets are for each range, as per the graphic and the table.
Note:
1. NO horizontal convergence is used.
2. The 20mm has less drop then the .50in out to ~400 yards, but appears to drop more after ~430. I can't figure out why though...
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Juzz;
Thanks...
Basically the guns are pointed upward a few degrees, so that at 400yds out the projectiles are even with the boresight?
To compensate for drop right?
The tracectory is fairly flat from 200 to 500 yds.
As Promised
(http://www.fcs.net/jfaries/Yippee.jpg)
Notice the "Polished Mirror Surface" on the right engine nacelle. Used for checking gear down, bombs and tanks released.
This picture is also my current wallpaper at work. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-04-2000).]
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P-38's RAF: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_7.html (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_7.html)
P-38's PTO: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_18.html (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_18.html) and http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-10.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-10.html)
P-38's ETO: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_17.html (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_17.html) and http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-09.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-09.html)
P-38F: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_10.html (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_10.html) and http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-02.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-02.html)
P-38G: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_11.html (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_11.html) and http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-03.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-03.html)
P-38J: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_13.html (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_13.html) and http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-05.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-05.html)
P-38L: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_15.html (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_15.html) and http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-07.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p038-07.html)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-04-2000).]
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Cool picture of a radar equiped night fighter version and pictures showing the difference in nacelle air intakes.
Check it out: http://www.fastlane.net/homepages/gchocker/p38.htm (http://www.fastlane.net/homepages/gchocker/p38.htm)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-05-2000).]
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Mino, buddy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I can understand you love of the 38, and I do enjoy a pic now and then.
But please consider that some of peons view the BBS thru a standard 56k connect, and when there are a billion pictures in a thread it can take a while to load.
This thread literally took 5 mins to load just now.
Be considerate of us bandwidth deprived plz (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
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Verm;
LOL
I doubt you ever read this, base on your last comment. Thanks for your patience!
This threads loads in about 1.5 seconds at work. At home, well this is my third P-38 thread. For the reason you describe.
Stay tuned! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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Juzz,
I like the G model for early,
But the J... I want the J-25LO. As a percentage of the J models they weren't the most numerous, but there were significant numbers of them produced. In addition they retro-fitted the boosted aels and dive-flaps on many of the 38 J's that came before. Nevermind how many J25-LO's were produced... how many J's ended up flying with boosted aels and dive flaps in combat?
And the L model... well... drool. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW... you want to see long range gunnery? Wait until we have a plane with 4x.50's and a Hispano 20mm all nose mounted.
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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Of the nearly 3000 J's built, only 210 were J-25's. Almost 4000 L's were built. The J-25 and L are virtually the same aircraft: in practice they would perform almost identically in AH, kinda like the Bf109G-10 and K-4.
It would be better for scenario/historical purposes to model one of the more common earlier J models; without the hydraulic controls and dive flaps. The L would be the model to feature these improvements.
It would be fine by me if both "types" of J were modelled; but then what would be the point of having the L?
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> ... the P-38's here may be as inneffective here as they were in the pure fighter roll over Europe.
Actually, from what I've read it's my understanding that apart from early high altitude engine problems the P-38 was extremely effective in Europe. Martin Caidin covers this pretty well in his book "Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38". And despite operational considerations that limited them to less than they were capable of!
> P-38J - I don't think it should have the boosted ailerons and dive flaps, as only a relatively small number of J's produced had these features.
Only a relatively small number of J's had these when they left the factory, but as Lephturn says:
> In addition they retro-fitted the boosted aels and dive-flaps on many of the 38 J's that came before. Nevermind how many J25-LO's were produced... how many J's ended up flying with boosted aels and dive flaps in combat?
Lephturn is correct. While the dive flaps were introduced with the P-38J-25's, kits were produced for "in the field" installation on earlier models. I also read that this was true of the boosted ailerons, but the source where I read this was not as authoritative as the one for the dive flap kits. I'll need to check my documentation to confirm this to my satisfaction ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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While the dive flaps were introduced with the P-38J-25's, kits were produced for "in the field" installation on earlier models. I also read that this was true of the boosted ailerons, but the source where I read this was not as authoritative as the one for the dive flap kits.
Again: The J-25 and L are virtually the same aircraft: in practice they would perform almost identically in AH, kinda like the Bf109G-10 and K-4.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 02-07-2000).]
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> It would be fine by me if both "types" of J were modelled; but then what would be the point of having the L?
Actually, I believe we need all three of these, as well as at least one earlier P-38. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
To answer the question about the L, we would get the later, more powerful Allison engines, the underwing rocket "Christmas trees" to accomodate 10 5" rockets, the strengthened center section pylons for 2,000 lb bombs. While probably a bit much for AH to model, the AN/APS-13 tail warning radar would be neat to have, too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Good point Juzz,
I think a J model with no boosted aels but a field-update dive flap is probably a good compromise. Does anybody have data on how many J's with dive-flap mods would have been flying around?
Then again... we do have the F4U-1C, so why not the 25LO? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Pyro opened that can of worms. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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Also, in the book on JV-44 from Classic Publications (Great Me-262 Books...these are the same guys who used to publish under Monogram Books)
http://www.classic-books.co.uk/ (http://www.classic-books.co.uk/)
Galland stated that the one of the biggest nuisances for the Luftwaffe was the P-38, due to it's loiter capability. They could keep German airfields capped for hours.
Also, in the Great Book of World War Two Fighters, they report about the P-38s ability to outturn the Me-109. In fact, they state that when the fight grew low enough to the ground, the P-38 pilots would dive at the ground and pull-up and force any 109s that followed to auger since they couldn't make the turn (pull-out).
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 02-08-2000).]
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not to mention the 38 didnt drop a wing when stalled.
it just fell forward even in a turn from the laminar airflow around the inner wings and nacels unless engines were used with unequal torque and full flaps in a turn with drop tanks (ala maguire)
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Citabr, as much as I like to believe that bit about the "falling forward", I think it applies to situations where the plane is not banked initially. If you stall at say 45 degrees of bank, you're going to drop a wing because one wing will stall before the other.
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every twin I've flow does this.
I've read the p38 doing this.
I asume it does too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
poor logic?
btw they did not say how high they were banking in the 38 when it mushed out of the turn.
and as for my experience mushing out of a turn into a stall in a twin was always a shallow bank (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Citabr (edited 02-15-2000).]
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I look at it as a balancing act which it is more or less.
with a single engine the balancing act is head of a pin and if you add in torque your gonna get dropped to the side (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
big old heavy twin has its mass and inertia and airflow over the wings by the props so it feels a lot more like standing on one foot instead of the head of a pin.
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The P-38 was originally designed with the intent of intercepting enemy bombers and transports. It took a while for it to mature into a fighter which was not really it's intended role. The same can be said for the Mustang which started out as a photo-recon and ground attack ship. The 38's design was unique and it broke the 400 mph barrier a few months after the Corsair to the delight of the Army Air Corp. The Army in its desire to make a little propaganda sent one of its pilots in the only XP-38 in existence on a transcontinental flight. It broke the speed record but crashed on landing approach at Mitchell Field, Long Island NY. Thus a new XP-38 had to be fabricated and a new testing program restarted. Tony Lavier, chief test pilot for lockheed stated that the crash probably set back production by two years. This set back was very significant when considering engine and compressabilty problems and the fact that 2000 modifications were made between the D and E models at a time when the US and Britain bably needed a long range interceptor. Had development gone ahead on schedule it would have faired better in Europe. Some folks malign the 38 but in its Pacific debut it showed its toughness and durability when an F4 recon model was shot up by Zero fighters and being light on fuel pulled away from them and escaped on one engine. In Europe 38's accounted for their share of 190's and 109's but were pulled from escort duty before they reaced full developement. I would not mind seeing the J or L model in AH. It would fill the nich of long range interceptor/fighter bomber.
Say Minotaur: It was good of you to post the trajectory chart- it shows that bullets just don't fly straight out there. They are pulled down by gravity quite a bit. Hence the guns have to be sighted in to shoot a bit high so that the bullet stream will be on at longer ranges. Lastly the P-38 may have been the only fighter to be built in a converted brewery.
I'll drink to that!
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Citabr,
Every flown a twin-tail/twin-engined bird? I'm not saying the 38 wouldn't drop a wing in the right situation, just that the twin-tails had a big effect on the low-speed handling of the P38.
One of the main reasons the P38 is such a great low-speed bird is because the props drive air down the nacells and over the control surfaces even when the plane's airspeed is zero. The result is that the P38 has control authority at lower speeds than any single engined bird of a similar era.
Bring on the FTD... and I'll stall-fight anything with it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) If you want to try a rolling scissors vs. this bird you better bring an Oscar. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Scissors in a 38??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
Leph I respect you as a pilot, cause I know how good you are. But Scissors in a 38???
The 38 was my ride of choice in WB's, and spent alot of sticktime in one in AW, personally the rolling scissor is the last manuever I would ever want to get into while piloting one.
My experience always was that yes, once you get it rolling it can roll fast, but its initial roll rate was poor, and due to the mass of the engines, its roll reversal rate was even worse. Even the L model with the boosted aelirons.
I wont' argue the fact that it can handle very well at slow speeds and turn very well in a continuous sustained turn in a single direction.
But Scissors in a 38 ??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Tell me I am misunderstanding your post somehow.
A Giant Flying Snail piloted by an half blind arthritic grandmother can beat a P-38 in rolling scissors. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 02-15-2000).]
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I agree, not a great scissor plane. The aileron boost only helps you at high speeds.
However the plane is very stable and stalls nicely, so you can pull back with confidence after each reversal, while a single-engine opponent might flick out.
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Hehehe. Ok, I see your point. I was thinking more of a big barrel roll fight where you roll, but keep going in the same direction. I seem to get into those a lot, and I have a bad habit of calling that a "rolling scissors". However, I am basing this on my experience with the old WB P38-J-25LO with the powered aels. Maybe it shouldn't have been so good, but that sucker could roll, even at low speed.
Anyway, the 38 is not as bad as one would expect in the scissors, rolling or otherwise, due to it's great low-speed handling. The guy that flies slowest, wins. In a 38 I can complete a rolling turn at a slower airspeed than almost any other bird out there, and you can win a scissors that way nearly every time... provided you live long enough.
Actually I think the biggest problem is that the 38 is such a HUGE target. That's the real problem for me in the scissors with the 38. It's tough to miss that big monster passing in front of you...
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
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Juzz, in reference to your wondering why the 20mm projectile drops less, and then dramatically more than the .50 cal:
the .50 cal/U.S. issue, still used today is a 1250 grain, copper jacketed with steel penetrator insert with a muzzle velocity of 2300 fps.
the 20mm U.S. issue, is not the same as today, but had a 1875 grain projectile of the same composition, but at a muzzle velocity screaming around 3600-4000 fps.
With the weight of the projectile and the "drag", this muzzle energy bleeds off quite fast... say 4 tenths of a second, down to roughly 1/3 of its original velocity.
So, believe it or not, the 50 cal has better velocity retention than the 20mm, but is not modeled the same way in the game. Also, i'm not saying that the .50 is more powerful than the 20mm, but i have experience with both weapons and when regarding firing from my humvee at ground targets, i'd prefer to have an m2 than a 20mm any day.(not so when firing at light armored vehicles tho! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ground Pounder rule #108:
The bigger the gun, the more fire drawn.
SC-GManMP
U.S. Army Military Police(Active)
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Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
Skeleton Crew, "E" Flight
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Mino bout time some one else asked bout the p-38 its my favrite fighter plane so im very excited bout the release of the p-38 i cant wait to fly it thanx for all the info on the plane. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Does anybody have data on how many J's with dive-flap mods would have been flying around?
I have not seen info on numbers of modified Lightnings, but I was looking through my old copy of Martin Caidin's Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38 where he mentions that Lockheed rushed production of the dive-flap kits and then also relates that "Four hundred and twenty-five sets of the flaps and modification kits were loaded aboard a Douglas C-54 four-engine transport for a high-priority flight to England. The airplane was shot down by a British pilot flying a Spitfire, and the modification kits vanished beneath the surface of the Atlantic." (p. 55)
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one more reason to hate spitfires
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A few cents to throw in:
A 'looping, barrel-roll' fight is, in fact, a rolling scissors.
Are you sure about the weight of the 20mm shells? Some simple math reveals that if the composition of the 20mm were the same they oughta weigh closer to 4500 grains! Some weight taken up by an explosive charge?
And as for the large drop over distance. If you look at that chart, these shells are are only dropping about a foot over 500 yards. Not bad considering how large most of the targets we shoot at are. If anything, it seems like there's a bit too much drop in AH right now.
~Lemur