Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: moot on May 26, 2009, 06:24:19 AM
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http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Bilder/web/new%20site/frames2/Bilder.htm
Cockpits and general pictures of a couple dozen models. e.g.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3637/3566646844_30a957cbb5_o.png)
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Great find thx Moot :aok
:salute
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looks like the batcave to me
great find m00t
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Accidental double post.
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Very cool Moot.
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The above photo and a very complete history of the Ho229 are available in the book "Horten Ho228, Spirit of Thuringia" by Andrei Shepelev and Huib Ottens. It has many Arthur Bentley drawings as well. Good stuff.
You can search youtube for a video on a cool scratch-built electric ducted fan RC version that flies quite nicely.
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Very nice stuff.
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Very nice find! :aok
thanks moot!
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I swear I read someplace a few months ago, I think it was Air and Space Magazine, that Northrup, or whatever they're called now-a-days, was building one of these, new, just for the heck of it. To see if it would live up to expectations as designed.
Haven't been able to find the article since nor any reference to it.
wrongway
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I swear I read someplace a few months ago, I think it was Air and Space Magazine, that Northrup, or whatever they're called now-a-days, was building one of these, new, just for the heck of it. To see if it would live up to expectations as designed.
Haven't been able to find the article since nor any reference to it.
wrongway
Northrop reproduction
Engineers of the Northrop-Grumman Corporation had long been interested in the Ho-229, and several of them visited the Smithsonian facility in Silver Hill, Maryland in the early 1980s to study the V3 airframe. In early 2008, Northrop-Grumman paired up with award-winning TV documentary producer Michael Jorgensen, another long-time fan of the aircraft, and the National Geographic Channel to produce a documentary to determine whether the Ho-229 was in fact the world's first true "stealth" fighter-bomber.[1]
A team of engineers from Northrop-Grumman ran electromagnetic tests on the V3's multilayer wooden center-section nose cones. The cones are three-fourths of an inch thick and made up of thin sheets of veneer. The team concluded that there was indeed some form of conducting element in the glue, as the radar signal slowed down considerably as it passed through the cone.[1]
In an experiment to determine the stealth characteristics of the design, Northrop-Grumman built a full-size replica of the V3 incorporating a duplicate glue mixture in the nose section. After an expenditure of about $250,000 and 2,500 man-hours Northrop's Ho-229 replica was tested at the company's classified radar cross-section (RCS) test range at Tejon, California, where it was placed on a 50-foot articulating pole and exposed to electromagnetic energy sources from various angles, duplicating the same three frequences used by the Chain Home radar network of the British in the early 1940s. RCS testing showed that an Ho-229 approaching the English Coast from France flying at 550 mph at 50 to 100 feet above the water would not have been visible to Chain Home radar, while an Me 109 or Fw 190 was visible up to 80 miles away.[1]
With testing complete, the replica will be donated by Northrop-Grumman to a yet-to-be-determined aviation museum, while the TV special will air in late June 2009 on the National Geographic Channel.[1]
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Northrop reproduction
Engineers of the Northrop-Grumman Corporation had long been interested in the Ho-229, and several of them visited the Smithsonian facility in Silver Hill, Maryland in the early 1980s to study the V3 airframe. In early 2008, Northrop-Grumman paired up with award-winning TV documentary producer Michael Jorgensen, another long-time fan of the aircraft, and the National Geographic Channel to produce a documentary to determine whether the Ho-229 was in fact the world's first true "stealth" fighter-bomber.[1]
A team of engineers from Northrop-Grumman ran electromagnetic tests on the V3's multilayer wooden center-section nose cones. The cones are three-fourths of an inch thick and made up of thin sheets of veneer. The team concluded that there was indeed some form of conducting element in the glue, as the radar signal slowed down considerably as it passed through the cone.[1]
In an experiment to determine the stealth characteristics of the design, Northrop-Grumman built a full-size replica of the V3 incorporating a duplicate glue mixture in the nose section. After an expenditure of about $250,000 and 2,500 man-hours Northrop's Ho-229 replica was tested at the company's classified radar cross-section (RCS) test range at Tejon, California, where it was placed on a 50-foot articulating pole and exposed to electromagnetic energy sources from various angles, duplicating the same three frequences used by the Chain Home radar network of the British in the early 1940s. RCS testing showed that an Ho-229 approaching the English Coast from France flying at 550 mph at 50 to 100 feet above the water would not have been visible to Chain Home radar, while an Me 109 or Fw 190 was visible up to 80 miles away.[1]
With testing complete, the replica will be donated by Northrop-Grumman to a yet-to-be-determined aviation museum, while the TV special will air in late June 2009 on the National Geographic Channel.[1]
Thanks
:aok
wrongway
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RCS testing showed that an Ho-229 approaching the English Coast from France flying at 550 mph at 50 to 100 feet above the water would not have been visible to Chain Home radar, while an Me 109 or Fw 190 was visible up to 80 miles away.
Did NG put a 109 or 190 on the pole?
Chain Home Extra Low
Introduction
In the early stages of the Second World War a German pilot could approach to within 80 miles of the British coast at 10,000 before CH detected him and by descending to 5,000 feet he could avoid CH detection to within 50 miles of the coast. With the introduction of CHL an aircraft flying at 500 feet up to 25 miles away could be tracked with very good accuracy. By 1941 the Germans had discovered that they could evade detection by CH and CHL by flying below 100 feet and skilled German pilots used this deficiency to devastating effect during raids on coastal targets.
http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/chel/chel.htm
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The armoured FW-189's look funky :D
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A restored Do 335
(http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/germany/dornier/do_335/do335-112.jpg)
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Watching National Geographic. They have the show on about the replica ho229 built by NGC. The model was indeed taken out to their RCS range to check on its stealth characteristics. The original was flown and out performed the 262 in manueverability.
INFIDELZ.
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That same website in the OP has an excellent collection of documents in the "Archive" section.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3263/3716489659_2fab2b61ae_b.jpg) (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3263/3716489659_c39aa82e18_o.jpg)
http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/MK%20103/MK%20103%20Maschinenkanone.htm
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2530/3716536055_8004cd595a.jpg?v=0) (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2530/3716536055_b57f4ef286_o.jpg)(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3455/3716536269_26392f1c00.jpg?v=0) (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3455/3716536269_5402fd4578_o.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2661/3717348064_4bc28b1900.jpg?v=0) (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2661/3717348064_f8694e0acc_o.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2547/3717347842_e21da57fab.jpg?v=0) (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2547/3717347842_843022db5b_o.jpg)(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3448/3717347962_230bf82f9e.jpg?v=0) (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3448/3717347962_731b21c6b2_o.png)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2500/3717377254_37857bb7c6_b.jpg) (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2500/3717377254_d223b913f2_o.png)
http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Me%20410/Me%20410%20B-2%20U-1%20Wa.pdf
And way more...
http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/archiv-englisch/dokumente/web/new%20site/frames2/Dokumente.htm
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There was a lot of interest in flying wings for a long time. The Hortens discovered they had a problem with loss of lift in the centre section of theirs - so they extended the wing in the centre to give it that 'bat-plane' shape. When flown the test pilots (apparently) said it flew really nicely. After the war neither the Brits or the Yanks seriously tried extending the centre section's of their flying wings and testing the aerodynamics the way the Hortens did. I don't know why.
However the 'bat-plane' (Horten IX or Ho-229) internally was a mess. If it they had been given better resources it might have been a very different story. I fail to understand why the allies didn't try to build such a wing using the aerodynamic experience of the Hortens after the war. The original plane itself wasn't adequate to take further - but a new plane may have looked the same/similar.
Even if it had reached service though, the flying wing concept has problems when reaching trans-sonic speeds (excessive buffeting). I'm not sure if that applies to the Horten design - I don't believe anyone has tried - but it probably does.
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Did NG put a 109 or 190 on the pole?
Chain Home Extra Low
Introduction
In the early stages of the Second World War a German pilot could approach to within 80 miles of the British coast at 10,000 before CH detected him and by descending to 5,000 feet he could avoid CH detection to within 50 miles of the coast. With the introduction of CHL an aircraft flying at 500 feet up to 25 miles away could be tracked with very good accuracy. By 1941 the Germans had discovered that they could evade detection by CH and CHL by flying below 100 feet and skilled German pilots used this deficiency to devastating effect during raids on coastal targets.
http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/chel/chel.htm
Until the Spit XIIs of 91 Squadron got em on May 25, 1943 :)
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They still managed to get by #91.
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There was a lot of interest in flying wings for a long time. The Hortens discovered they had a problem with loss of lift in the centre section of theirs - so they extended the wing in the centre to give it that 'bat-plane' shape. When flown the test pilots (apparently) said it flew really nicely. After the war neither the Brits or the Yanks seriously tried extending the centre section's of their flying wings and testing the aerodynamics the way the Hortens did. I don't know why.
However the 'bat-plane' (Horten IX or Ho-229) internally was a mess. If it they had been given better resources it might have been a very different story. I fail to understand why the allies didn't try to build such a wing using the aerodynamic experience of the Hortens after the war. The original plane itself wasn't adequate to take further - but a new plane may have looked the same/similar.
Even if it had reached service though, the flying wing concept has problems when reaching trans-sonic speeds (excessive buffeting). I'm not sure if that applies to the Horten design - I don't believe anyone has tried - but it probably does.
Northrup built 9 B-35 flying wing bombers. Two were converted to B-49 jet engine bombers. According to John Northrup the program was canceled by Air Force Secretary Stuart Symington when Northrup refused Symington's demand that Northrup merge with Convair .Symington said the B-49 was canceled because of problems with the design. Instead of a Northrup Flying Wing the Air Force bought the Convair B-36.
Northrup's design wasn't based on the Horten, it was a parallel development a few years behind the Horten design. The Hortens started out designing flying wing sailplanes and had a lot of experience with them before the war. Reimar Horten was designing and building flying wings in Argentina after the war and wrote a book "Nurflugal" in the early 80's. Many pictures from the book are on Douglas Bullard's Nurflugel website.
http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/Horten_Nurflugels/horten_nurflugels.html
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Northrup built 9 B-35 flying wing bombers. Two were converted to B-49 jet engine bombers. According to John Northrup the program was canceled by Air Force Secretary Stuart Symington when Northrup refused Symington's demand that Northrup merge with Convair .Symington said the B-49 was canceled because of problems with the design. Instead of a Northrup Flying Wing the Air Force bought the Convair B-36.
Northrup's design wasn't based on the Horten, it was a parallel development a few years behind the Horten design. The Hortens started out designing flying wing sailplanes and had a lot of experience with them before the war. Reimar Horten was designing and building flying wings in Argentina after the war and wrote a book "Nurflugal" in the early 80's. Many pictures from the book are on Douglas Bullard's Nurflugel website.
http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/Horten_Nurflugels/horten_nurflugels.html
Interesting. The Horten's wing also had a different lift distribution across the chord to the usual wing arrangement, and they 'twisted' the cross section of each wing to improve the stall characteristics too. I don't believe anyone else took up these ideas after the war. It would have been nice to have seen what the Hortens' could have achieved after the war with a bit of funding. It would have been a relatively cheap research program too. I wonder why it wasn't taken further - NIH?