Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Siphi on May 31, 2009, 01:45:40 AM
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on any plane how far and range does can the bullets fly to hit the planes? 1k? 800 k?
on the gun field whats the maximum range?
wirbelwind?
sorry if theres a post like this already and thank you so much!
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Depends on the gun the plane is armed with,
50cal/1K
20mm/1k (but shorter ranges like 400yrd and under or preferred)
30mm/ (I would suggest 300yrd and under)
WW/ 1.5K max
soft guns/field guns 2.5K max
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You can hit planes out beyond 1k with your guns but there are a number of factors that detract from your effectiveness the farther out you go.
Machine guns for example rely on velocity to cause impact damage. The farther out you shoot from, the less damage they will cause because they've slowed down with distance.
I rarely shoot outside of 400 yards, and usually within 200.
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The 50 cal, 20mm and 30mm disapear past 1.5k, the wirble wind is the same thing, and the field gun I have heard rumors of hits at 12K and I personnally have shot down planes at 6K (bombers)
I think that the 37mm gun on the ostwind goes to 3k
The best range for all of these guns is about 400, 200 if you are a bad shot
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My ACM allows me to get within yards of my target. It has nothing to do with aiming ability.
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I have never hit anything outside 2.5k in a field gun and killed it, and Scotch is right how far they go has nothing to do with how far you can hit with them. They can go out 10k but the effective range is still only going to be within 400yrd IMO (plane set).
Oh and 2.5k in a field gun I considered a lucky shot!
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Scotch is right how far they go has nothing to do with how far you can hit with them. They can go out 10k but the effective range is still only going to be within 400yrd IMO (plane set).
That's not what Scotch said. He mentioned kinetic energy in round damage.
Any round impact equation in AH can be expressed thusly:
Weapon caliber + (distance to target * muzzle velocity) + HE round yes/no.
You can have something like a 37mm field ack, fire a lucky shot at 4k, and still have enough of the equation on the "plus" side (weapon caliber mainly) to cause a kill shot.
What Scotch said, though, is that once ACM becomes second nature, it doesn't make sense to rely on quirks to augment that kill equation, because getting in close for the kill is pretty darn easy. If you can minimize the distance of your shot, you have a better chance of dealing a critical blow. Conversely, if you spray at long range, you can work out the above equation yourself and see that your chances of getting a kill are far fewer.
The moral of the story is that your ACM, not your gunnery, is quite often the most important factor in getting a kill.
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I shot down 2 lancs passing directly over my field at 6k in a man ack.
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on any plane how far and range does can the bullets fly to hit the planes? 1k? 800 k?
on the gun field whats the maximum range?
wirbelwind?
sorry if theres a post like this already and thank you so much!
Heres a short easy answer, in a plane almost any range is possible, BUT if your shooting over 400 yards out your wasting ammo.
GVs that have 50cals and cannons are about the same, Ostys and field guns 1000 is your limit...other wize again your wasting ammo.
Like I said, and other have mentioned, other ranges are "possible", but not very probable.
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manned field guns are 40mm, not 37.. ive hit bombers at 4.5k yards many times, 3-3.5k regularly
its impossible to waste ammo in a field gun..
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Heres a short easy answer, in a plane almost any range is possible, BUT if your shooting over 400 yards out your wasting ammo.
Caveat: There are notable exceptions. .50's can be effective out to 800 yards on a target which is not evasive. I open my .50's up at 800 yards on buffs.
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Ostys and field guns 1000 is your limit...other wize again your wasting ammo.
Not necessarily so...I have made many kills in Osti's and Field guns beyond 1.5K. But in saying that, I usually never fire at a target that is going across my field of view. I have hit or shot down bombers at 2.5K + coming toward me or going directly away from me. Osti's can do a great job at 1.5K or less and can (most of the time they do) kill a target with one ping. This includes a moving target going across my line of sight.
The Wirble is another story. It ain't worth crap over 1K. Granted, you might hit the target, but damage is usually minimal. If and when I am in a Wirble I won't pull the trigger unless it is at least 1000 or less. The M16 quad .50's can wreck havoc at closer ranges of 200-600k. They're pretty good sitting in the middle of a field or Vbase and ping those that come in hot and heavy. Though I never use it anymore, it does have it's place if used right and don't fire at targets 1K or more.
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LOL!!! Yes you guys are all right, but like I said, "anything is possible, but not very probable" meaning yes you can hit effectively with 50's at 800.....IF you have an aim like Steve, not many do. The same goes for field guns, I've known a number of people who took out bombers 4k out, but most people done have that aim/luck.
I was just pointing out the the general areas in which the OP can expect to hit hard/well enough.
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I usually only shoot from 300 yds or closer. Anything farther out, with exceptionsand in my opinion, is wasting ammo.
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Testing in the TA, I can't get my 50 cals to punch holes in the target beyond about 1100yds, depending on my altitude. Being higher allows my rounds to puch holes slightly further out, maybe up to about 1200yds.
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Speed is the factor. Bullets disappear after travelling a certain distance. The faster you go, the shorter the bullets will travel away from you before disappearing.
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If you have to ask what the range of your guns are...........YOU'RE TOO FAR AWAY!
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LOL!!! Yes you guys are all right, but like I said, "anything is possible, but not very probable" meaning yes you can hit effectively with 50's at 800.....IF you have an aim like Steve, not many do. The same goes for field guns, I've known a number of people who took out bombers 4k out, but most people done have that aim/luck.
I was just pointing out the the general areas in which the OP can expect to hit hard/well enough.
:salute
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OP: Not all guns are equal, even in a given caliber. Different nations used different models of cannon, and AH reflects this. Here are a few quick and dirty rules from what to expect from your guns:
1. Any American plane with .50 cals has a very good reach, if you're very lucky you can hit targets at 600-800, but even with your convergence set to 600 yards, the bullet spread and loss of energy with distance will make an outright kill unlikely. Unless you're shooting at something that's basically a gas tank with wings- like the Zero.
2. American and British 20mm guns are modeling the Hispano cannon, which has/had a similar muzzle velocity to the .50 cal, and only slightly inferior performance at longer distances. Treat the 20mms on American and British planes like .50 cal brownings. (Whenever you fly a P-38, this means both your machine guns and cannons need the same amount of lead, so you can feel free to unload both at the same time.)
3. Everybody else's guns are a crap-shoot, both their machine guns and their cannons. A quick breakdown:
3A. German machine guns: 8mm guns in the early Bf-109s have crappy ballistics and range, comparable to British 303s. Later model Bf-109s with 13mm guns are substantially better, but these guns are not comparable to Brownings.
3B. German cannons: German 20mm cannons are not as good as Hispanos, but not too bad, either. You can get decent accurate range from them, but don't push it. Early German 30mm cannons suck- the only plane in AH with that one, IIRC, is the Bf-109G "Gustav," with the single 30mm in the prob hub. There's a reason they called it the "melon launcher," that's exactly what the projectile feels like as it languidly arcs towards the target. Late-war German 30mm cannons shoot a lot like Hispanos, they are the BFG-9000 of AH. This is why you don't get in front of an Me-262.
3C. Japanese weapons: Japanese machine guns are generally equivalent to German guns- the 7.7s are hopeless, and the 13mm guns on the late-model Zeros and the Ki-84 are better, but don't compare to Brownings (in my limited experience.) Cannons- Japanese cannons have horribad range and ballistics, it's like throwing softballs. They have a great rate of fire but very little ammo, so save it for the kill and don't try long-range snapshots like you might with Hispanos. Late-war Japanese cannons- I don't know. I think it's the same, but they might be better.
3D. Russians: Russian machine guns actually are better then Brownings. The UB has a better rate of fire AND has nice ballistics, good guns. Russian 20mms (like in the Il-2, as if anybody ever flew that,) are rumored to be great. Historically they weren't quite as good ballistically as the Hispano but were close. I don't know much about russkie birds, so ask somebody else about that. I do know that the La-7 (which seems to be the most popular Russian ride in the MA) uses 30mm cannons, and that their ballistics are rather weak just like Japanese cannons, so treat them accordingly- the point-blank Win button.
Some of this is informed more by my knowledge of historical data which doesn't exactly correspond to AH modeling, so take it with a grain of salt, and if anybody calls me a retard, they'll probably be right.
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There's only one German 30mm, it's the MK108 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/MK_108). It's on the 190A8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Fw_190A-8), 110G2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Bf_110G-2), 109s G14 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Bf_109G-14) and K4 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Bf_109K-4), on the Me163 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Me_163) and Me262 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Me_262), and on the Ta152 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Ta_152H). It has only one kind of trajectory - the melon one.
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There's only one German 30mm, it's the MK108 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/MK_108). It's on the 190A8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Fw_190A-8), 110G2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Bf_110G-2), 109s G14 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Bf_109G-14) and K4 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Bf_109K-4), on the Me163 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Me_163) and Me262 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Me_262), and on the Ta152 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Ta_152H). It has only one kind of trajectory - the melon one.
... wut.
The reference to the late-war 30mm with good ballistics I remember must have been referring to a new cannon never fielded, then.
Like I said- I can be retarded. :rofl
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MK103 is probably what you're thinking of. It'll show up on the Me410 when we get it. The Me262 had a gun package with it, but it looks kinda special. There were other 30mm cannons like the MK101 and MG213, but those definitely aren't coming to the game.
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MK103 is probably what you're thinking of. It'll show up on the Me410 when we get it. The Me262 had a gun package with it, but it looks kinda special. There were other 30mm cannons like the MK101 and MG213, but those definitely aren't coming to the game.
That must be it. The references were to late-war 30mms in a bomber-destroying roll (which is, in a word, the Me-410,) but for some reason I thought they were installed in the Me-262 as well.
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OP: Not all guns are equal, even in a given caliber. Different nations used different models of cannon, and AH reflects this. Here are a few quick and dirty rules from what to expect from your guns:
1. Any American plane with .50 cals has a very good reach, if you're very lucky you can hit targets at 600-800, but even with your convergence set to 600 yards, the bullet spread and loss of energy with distance will make an outright kill unlikely. Unless you're shooting at something that's basically a gas tank with wings- like the Zero.
2. American and British 20mm guns are modeling the Hispano cannon, which has/had a similar muzzle velocity to the .50 cal, and only slightly inferior performance at longer distances. Treat the 20mms on American and British planes like .50 cal brownings. (Whenever you fly a P-38, this means both your machine guns and cannons need the same amount of lead, so you can feel free to unload both at the same time.)
3. Everybody else's guns are a crap-shoot, both their machine guns and their cannons. A quick breakdown:
3A. German machine guns: 8mm guns in the early Bf-109s have crappy ballistics and range, comparable to British 303s. Later model Bf-109s with 13mm guns are substantially better, but these guns are not comparable to Brownings.
3B. German cannons: German 20mm cannons are not as good as Hispanos, but not too bad, either. You can get decent accurate range from them, but don't push it. Early German 30mm cannons suck- the only plane in AH with that one, IIRC, is the Bf-109G "Gustav," with the single 30mm in the prob hub. There's a reason they called it the "melon launcher," that's exactly what the projectile feels like as it languidly arcs towards the target. Late-war German 30mm cannons shoot a lot like Hispanos, they are the BFG-9000 of AH. This is why you don't get in front of an Me-262.
3C. Japanese weapons: Japanese machine guns are generally equivalent to German guns- the 7.7s are hopeless, and the 13mm guns on the late-model Zeros and the Ki-84 are better, but don't compare to Brownings (in my limited experience.) Cannons- Japanese cannons have horribad range and ballistics, it's like throwing softballs. They have a great rate of fire but very little ammo, so save it for the kill and don't try long-range snapshots like you might with Hispanos. Late-war Japanese cannons- I don't know. I think it's the same, but they might be better.
3D. Russians: Russian machine guns actually are better then Brownings. The UB has a better rate of fire AND has nice ballistics, good guns. Russian 20mms (like in the Il-2, as if anybody ever flew that,) are rumored to be great. Historically they weren't quite as good ballistically as the Hispano but were close. I don't know much about russkie birds, so ask somebody else about that. I do know that the La-7 (which seems to be the most popular Russian ride in the MA) uses 30mm cannons, and that their ballistics are rather weak just like Japanese cannons, so treat them accordingly- the point-blank Win button.
Some of this is informed more by my knowledge of historical data which doesn't exactly correspond to AH modeling, so take it with a grain of salt, and if anybody calls me a retard, they'll probably be right.
La's have 20mm not 30mm, sometimes I wish it did have 3/30mm guns :D, but it would have to be perked then......
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OP: Not all guns are equal, even in a given caliber. Different nations used different models of cannon, and AH reflects this. Here are a few quick and dirty rules from what to expect from your guns:
1. Any American plane with .50 cals has a very good reach, if you're very lucky you can hit targets at 600-800, but even with your convergence set to 600 yards, the bullet spread and loss of energy with distance will make an outright kill unlikely. Unless you're shooting at something that's basically a gas tank with wings- like the Zero.
2. American and British 20mm guns are modeling the Hispano cannon, which has/had a similar muzzle velocity to the .50 cal, and only slightly inferior performance at longer distances. Treat the 20mms on American and British planes like .50 cal brownings. (Whenever you fly a P-38, this means both your machine guns and cannons need the same amount of lead, so you can feel free to unload both at the same time.)
3. Everybody else's guns are a crap-shoot, both their machine guns and their cannons. A quick breakdown:
3A. German machine guns: 8mm guns in the early Bf-109s have crappy ballistics and range, comparable to British 303s. Later model Bf-109s with 13mm guns are substantially better, but these guns are not comparable to Brownings.
3B. German cannons: German 20mm cannons are not as good as Hispanos, but not too bad, either. You can get decent accurate range from them, but don't push it. Early German 30mm cannons suck- the only plane in AH with that one, IIRC, is the Bf-109G "Gustav," with the single 30mm in the prob hub. There's a reason they called it the "melon launcher," that's exactly what the projectile feels like as it languidly arcs towards the target. Late-war German 30mm cannons shoot a lot like Hispanos, they are the BFG-9000 of AH. This is why you don't get in front of an Me-262.
3C. Japanese weapons: Japanese machine guns are generally equivalent to German guns- the 7.7s are hopeless, and the 13mm guns on the late-model Zeros and the Ki-84 are better, but don't compare to Brownings (in my limited experience.) Cannons- Japanese cannons have horribad range and ballistics, it's like throwing softballs. They have a great rate of fire but very little ammo, so save it for the kill and don't try long-range snapshots like you might with Hispanos. Late-war Japanese cannons- I don't know. I think it's the same, but they might be better.
3D. Russians: Russian machine guns actually are better then Brownings. The UB has a better rate of fire AND has nice ballistics, good guns. Russian 20mms (like in the Il-2, as if anybody ever flew that,) are rumored to be great. Historically they weren't quite as good ballistically as the Hispano but were close. I don't know much about russkie birds, so ask somebody else about that. I do know that the La-7 (which seems to be the most popular Russian ride in the MA) uses 30mm cannons, and that their ballistics are rather weak just like Japanese cannons, so treat them accordingly- the point-blank Win button.
Some of this is informed more by my knowledge of historical data which doesn't exactly correspond to AH modeling, so take it with a grain of salt, and if anybody calls me a retard, they'll probably be right.
23mm
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<whoops>
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MK103 is probably what you're thinking of. It'll show up on the Me410 when we get it. The Me262 had a gun package with it, but it looks kinda special. There were other 30mm cannons like the MK101 and MG213, but those definitely aren't coming to the game.
Moot,while I'll agree that the Mg213 shouldnt make the game,I see no reason for the Mk101 not to be included.In fact IIRC the 110c was equipped with the Mk101 and it was put to good use against british harbour targets.Granted it was in the 110c-6 and added close to a tonne in weight,but was used in combat at squadron levels!!
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I didn't know about that. I thought it wasn't ever used outside of experimentally.
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That's not what Scotch said. He mentioned kinetic energy in round damage.
Any round impact equation in AH can be expressed thusly:
Weapon caliber + (distance to target * muzzle velocity) + HE round yes/no.
You can have something like a 37mm field ack, fire a lucky shot at 4k, and still have enough of the equation on the "plus" side (weapon caliber mainly) to cause a kill shot.
What Scotch said, though, is that once ACM becomes second nature, it doesn't make sense to rely on quirks to augment that kill equation, because getting in close for the kill is pretty darn easy. If you can minimize the distance of your shot, you have a better chance of dealing a critical blow. Conversely, if you spray at long range, you can work out the above equation yourself and see that your chances of getting a kill are far fewer.
The moral of the story is that your ACM, not your gunnery, is quite often the most important factor in getting a kill.
not to argue with ya but, I read (wish I remember who said it) from a WW2 ace? that "the better shot will almost always win against a better pilot."
anyone know who said that?
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Moot,
In fact they had 110g's with BK 3.7 aswell!
source,aircraft of Luftwaffe. :aok
and again thx Moot.
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Wow.. I bet some people would like that perk loadout :D
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I shot down 2 lancs passing directly over my field at 6k in a man ack.
I'm sure you were called a cheating hack...they always say that to waystin when he shreds them with a wirbl. :D :salute
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not to argue with ya but, I read (wish I remember who said it) from a WW2 ace? that "the better shot will almost always win against a better pilot."
anyone know who said that?
I've heard that a time or two as well...
And like most things, there's more than one way to look at it.
What makes one pilot the "better shot"? Shooting can be broken down into just a couple of basics. Knowing where/when to aim/fire, and being able to physically aim/fire at that point in space at the correct time. To do well at shooting a moving target, both things need to be accomplished. The biggest/best gun is worthless if you can't hit your target with it. The guy with the computer-brain who knows exactly where/when to fire is not going to do well if he can't physically aim and fire his gun at the target correctly.
Considering that the nose and wing mounted guns are aimed by flying/piloting, the pilot with the better piloting skills is going to end up aiming his guns better than the poor pilot, at least the majority of the time. His/her "better" use of ACM will also probably yield an easier (in both profile and range) shot solution, which he'll be more likely to succeed/hit with.
Better aiming skills, and easier shot solutions are bound to equate to more hits (higher hit%). The "better shot" is generally considered to be the guy who can score the most or best hits on target (higher hit%). Therefore, in AH, the better pilot will also appear to be the better shot, even though his actual shooting is probably going to be on easier targets at much closer ranges than the less-skilled pilot.
It'd be really tough to find a "great shot" who isn't also a very accomplished pilot...
It may also be worth noting that it isn't very often that we see an experienced/successful/highly skilled pilot too concerned with the maximum range that the AH guns are effective. Or for that matter too concerned with the guy trying to hit him at the far reaches of effective range. There may be some substance to that idea...
That of course would be different if the pilot couldn't "move to" his target. Maximum effective range of a fixed/mounted gun (ack) would be very useful information, as it would be for a tank, since the more successful GV driver may be the guy who drives least!. It would also be useful for bomber guns, since those are generally relying on a target coming to them as well.
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I've heard that a time or two as well...
And like most things, there's more than one way to look at it.
What makes one pilot the "better shot"? Shooting can be broken down into just a couple of basics. Knowing where/when to aim/fire, and being able to physically aim/fire at that point in space at the correct time. To do well at shooting a moving target, both things need to be accomplished. The biggest/best gun is worthless if you can't hit your target with it. The guy with the computer-brain who knows exactly where/when to fire is not going to do well if he can't physically aim and fire his gun at the target correctly.
Considering that the nose and wing mounted guns are aimed by flying/piloting, the pilot with the better piloting skills is going to end up aiming his guns better than the poor pilot, at least the majority of the time. His/her "better" use of ACM will also probably yield an easier (in both profile and range) shot solution, which he'll be more likely to succeed/hit with.
Better aiming skills, and easier shot solutions are bound to equate to more hits (higher hit%). The "better shot" is generally considered to be the guy who can score the most or best hits on target (higher hit%). Therefore, in AH, the better pilot will also appear to be the better shot, even though his actual shooting is probably going to be on easier targets at much closer ranges than the less-skilled pilot.
It'd be really tough to find a "great shot" who isn't also a very accomplished pilot...
It may also be worth noting that it isn't very often that we see an experienced/successful/highly skilled pilot too concerned with the maximum range that the AH guns are effective. Or for that matter too concerned with the guy trying to hit him at the far reaches of effective range. There may be some substance to that idea...
That of course would be different if the pilot couldn't "move to" his target. Maximum effective range of a fixed/mounted gun (ack) would be very useful information, as it would be for a tank, since the more successful GV driver may be the guy who drives least!. It would also be useful for bomber guns, since those are generally relying on a target coming to them as well.
you have such a way with words :aok and it makes it easier to understand, but now can you tell me how to actually hit MY targets :rofl :rofl
just kidding thats a lost cause :(
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not to argue with ya but, I read (wish I remember who said it) from a WW2 ace? that "the better shot will almost always win against a better pilot."
anyone know who said that?
Rickenbacker, I think. He was the guy who stood in a motorcycle sidecar, shooting at trees with his .45 as he went past.