Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: F4UDOA on January 09, 2001, 08:44:00 AM
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Pyro,
First there is no need for a "perked F4U-1C". It has never been uber and other than cannons has no advantage over the F4U-1D. In the perk arena the F4U-4 will be the preferred ride of any F4U driver and the F4U-1C really doesn't bring anything new except cannons anyway. So what to do with it?
A while ago in the MA you mentioned that you would like to do a early birdcage F4U-1 with a tri-color paint scheme. Well this it what I call an opportunity to succeed!!
Reasons why you should do this.
1. It would require a lot less work to turn the -1C into a -1 or -1A. New guns, paint and canopy. And oh yeah, reduce the weight by a couple of hundred pounds and take the spoiler off of the starboard wing.
2. The F4U-4 is the clear choice of perk birds. If you want another F4U perk plane then do the F2G with the checker board nose. That's a perk plane!!
3. "The Lord givith and the Lord taketh away". It's fair trade for the loosing a major part of our squad capability as well as reducing the Navy and Marine presence.
4. The F4U-1/1A is an true early war representation. The F4U-1 is a true 1942 bird and the -1A is 1943. Great for scenarios' and a great handling bird too.
BTW, If you do choose to do this may I recommend Ken Walsh's F4U-1 with the Birdcage canopy and Tommy Blackburns F4U-1A with a Jolly Roger if you do the bubble canopy.
Thanks
F4UDOA
And I didn't even whine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 01-09-2001).]
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What follows next in the 'food chain' of whining:
Bish attackers drop bombs on a field, with goon awaiting off shore, however, VH doesn't go down within the first 30 seconds, and 5 OSTWINDS up...now, with no C-Hog, they lose 2/3 of their A/C trying to strafe the OSTIE's. Onto the BBS to whine about the OSTIE's and how hard they are to kill.
Osties are tamed.
Then, airfields (and defending Osties) are relatively easy to capture, and the posts begin on the BBS on how easy it is to capture (with one or two replies asking for Osties to be alittle more resiliant to attack)...
Next on the 'hit list'(Whined about on BBS) will be Ostie, then N1K, then (Pick your favorite ride you have today, because it is susceptable to what is happening with the C-Hog)
Low and behold, 20% of the community starts to drive the P51D and the F4U-1D, complaints are heard, and there is talk of perking these A/C, or implementing a RPS, whereas your favorite ride is limited to fly a certain amount of days per month.
Blah, Blah, Blah, it never ends....its a food chain , guys, be very careful what you ask for!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Ripsnort,
What part of "Its not being perked because of the whines!" and "Its not being perked because of how powerful it it!" do you not understand?
Are you intentionally being this dense?
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/killstats.gif)
This is the reason, the only reason, that HTC is considering perking the F4U-1C. Its breaking the bloody perk system.
Got it?
F4UDOA,
I don't see any reason why they shouldn't make the F4U-1C a cheap perk AND add a tri-color F4U-1A.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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nice theory Rip, but there's one problem with it:
Ostwinds DO need to be tamed. I couldna count anymore how many times I've dove on an ostwind at angle of 65degrees or more (while it was shooting at someone else) and unload into that turret, with a -1C, and the damn thing turns right around and shoots me in the arse as I climb out.
More and more lately I've seen ostwinds survive 2 1k eggs being dropped in verra close proximity. Last night I dropped 2 1k eggs on a VH. On my approach dive I saw a vehicle spawn and thought "ahhh easy meat". On the climbout I look back, zoom, and to my astonishment I see two ostwinds clearing the edge of the craters my eggs made dead center of the VH.
I realize netlag can cause a delay in a bomb hitting and something dying, but that just wasn't it in this case. I reversed and put my rockets and some cannon into the VH and it went right down, so I know the damage I had done had already been scored.
With that open top .303s should be all that's needed to knock that maingun out of commission, but it's just not so in the MA. Ostdweebs have survived up to 3 high angle passes from me in a -1C and still had thier main guns working.
(Pyro if ya wanna do a shooting test again I'm game anytime (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
[This message has been edited by CavemanJ (edited 01-09-2001).]
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I honestly think that you would see the numbers of 1c's in the arena dramatically decrease when the following two things occur:
* The carrier newness wears off.
* There are planes to spend perk points on, giving people a tangible reason to care whether they are getting 8 perk points for a 6 kill sortie in a 1d or 1.2 perk points for the same sortie in a 1c.
I'd like to see HTC wait to perk the 1c until they see if the above makes a difference. If it doesn't, then perk away. If they go ahead and perk it tomorow, no big deal.
Gordo
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You guys are seriously addicted to crack/cannon.
When I want to inflict unreasonable pain and punishment on any SOB within .900k, there is one ride I grab. Thats right! Gull wings, deep dark blue and four devilish bastards poking out of the leading wing edges.
Its in the damned game. Stop being so obviously hard up for lack of other more desirebale attributes.
LMAO!
On second thought, Vulcan in that damnable Tiffy is really starting to grate on me.
Perk the TIFFY!!!!!!!!
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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No problem with 1c if they realise that hispano is way off the scale with other cannons.
how about modelling reliability of the guns?
that would really make those choggers thinking of changing to dhog.
(And specially when this hispano model under US is even worse than ones in spit IX..)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
yaddayaddayadda (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Read up, ya bastige...it's not like you're on this board 20 hours out of the day or anything! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007299.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007299.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007315.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007315.html)
SOB
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Holey Hijack,
Anybody wanna get back to the point.
If ya wanna whine about c-hogs go get your own thread!!
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Heh, I knew Fishu couldn't make it through this thread without uttering the word hispano.
Karnak I really think the majority of those 1c drivers are going to go to the F6F next, making it as high or higher than the infamous 20% mark the 1c had.
Other than that I don't fly it and have never minded flying against it. The only concern I have about seeing it go is how much louder the whining will be on the next plane, since they know they can get it pulled if they scream loud enough.
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Oh-me oh-my but of course F4UDOA!
Yes perk the Chog.
Yes, add the F4U4 and perk it as well.
Hows that?
Yeager
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Well, I don't fly the C-Hog much at all, but it does have its role in our Field Attack missions, that of being a good ground attack weapon.
Yeager, if I want to rack up a 41 to 1 K/D ratio, I fly the P51D.
Karnak, I consider the source so I shall ignore you.
Just be careful what you ask for, this arena is as delicate as a food chain, you disrupt one facet of it, and the downstream effects will come around to bite you sooner, or later.
It's funny, I love to engage C-Hogs with my 1D or P51D, because I find them relatively easy to shoot down!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Couple of quick thoughts rip:
"Yeager, if I want to rack up a 41 to 1 K/D ratio, I fly the P51D."
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Damn near anyone with any credible time in this sim can get a 41/1 K/D in anything if they try and have good luck.
"Just be careful what you ask for, this arena is as delicate as a food chain, you disrupt one facet of it, and the downstream effects will come around to bite you sooner, or later."
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This one begs for deep dissection but I dont have much time. The balance in AH at the time the Chog was introduced was nearly stable. Alot has changed and the impact isnt so noticable now but at the time it was like a cancer IMO. The Chog doesnt bother me anymore but I like seeing you Chog defenders squirm in self-suspicion whenever these things come up.
AcesHigh needs everything, including the P61 and B29 so I certainly do not support anything being removed, just placed in context and if that means restricted availablity or even *gasp* RPS type scenarios then lets do it.
The F4U-1A would be attractice as would a F4F3, Nate, Jill, Val, P39, P40, Brewster..
Hell.... I want em all in here!
Yeager
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I feel for you Hellcat lovers. Based on Karnaks' theory, you are next. What ac do you think these hog drivers are going to go to ya dimwits (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Yeager,
The C-hog is no better or worse than any other plane in AH. It has cannons and a good, not great FM. That's all. Pyro has already said that if he does perk it it will not be because it is uber just because so many people choose to fly it. What do you think those people will do next? Fly the C202? No, they will fly the NIK2 or the Typhoon. Leading to the next set of whining threads. Whining is like quitting or lying. It's a personality thing, a bad habit. Once you start it's hard to stop. I'm not calling anybody quitters or liars. But I am saying that removing the C-Hog only sets a president for future behavior. The P-51 could be next.
The purpose of this thread was to point out a whole in the plane set that will need to be filled after the C-hog goes away. Filling it with a "Secret weapons of the Luftwaffa" would be ridiculous and a F4F or FM-2 would not be competitive. The F4U-1 or -1A is the only way to go here.
And if we are to have two perked F4U's would you rather have a F4U-4 and F2G? Sounds like more fun that a F4U-1D with cannons.
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I'll agree with you there, Yeager, I like them all! I think having a main arena with unhistorical match-ups probably draws attention to the C-Hog currently than any other A/C (think about it, if given a choice of a .22 rifle or a .30-06 for hunting big game, which would you choose if you were less than experienced in hunting big game?)
Mark my words, N1K will be next.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Oops,dbl post.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Well I guess we can be excited then!
We are all entering uncharted waters with this Perk system. If most players migrate to another single plane type then will it be perked? Although one could safely suggest yes, one does not know this as a matter of fact, yet.
Lets just see where it takes us.
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The only lasting thing I hope for in AH is that we can eventually experience everything from 1939 to 1945.
Hell! Id like to experience some stuff from 1915 to 1918 and maybe even 1951 to 1954 in HTCs world of combat sims shouldnt this be at least plausible?
Yeager
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Question ? Do you want play balance or do you wish to play with the plane you like most all of the time?
My thoughts on the matter are that although the F4u-1C might get perked I dont think it will be perked in such a manner that it becomes unobtainable.
It will be a case of opportunity costs.
Economics. Do you wish to spend x amount of perk points say for instance 5 perk points per Chog (that in my mind would be per new plane/not.. say if you succesfully land and .ef it should carry over.) And in spending those extra points will it benifit or deprive you in
A) earning more than it costs
B) depriving you from husbanding your points to fly a ME262 for instance.
So should the N1K be perked as it stands quite possibly .
But when you say PERKED!!!!! like its some kind of catastrophic event I think is unfair and alarmist.
It will be an interesting time to be sure.
Some planes should cost a little and some should cost alot. Some planes should be free of perk point cost to fly
The F4U-1C being the latest plane in the plane set 1945 correct? should IMO cost something especially if it has shown to be highly popular due to its destructive power.
The whole purpose of "Perking" is in my mind to add a whole new element in combat flight sim gaming.
To say oh my ride got perked yours is next is not a valid or insightful look into what promises to be progression in a gaming genre that has almost remained unchanged since its inception.
Many people have appluaded HTC for its innovations , now just because it slightly changes the way you play even if the cost is mimimal it meets resistance. Im sorry I dont get that attitude .
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1950-1953 A/C could be quite fun! See an old post in this forum about Aces High Korea.
Baddawg, doesn't change the way I play, rarely fly the C-Hog,(anymore, used to , but I chose to kill the enemy in a plane I consider far more superior than the C-Hog, the P51D)... my point is 'what will be the next most popular plane?'...that is where your answer lies for the next 'Uber Plane' whine.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-09-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
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...and take the spoiler off of the starboard wing.
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[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 01-09-2001).]
Spoiler? I wouldn't call that little thing a spoiler!
(Checks pants)
Now that's a spoiler! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Voss 13th T.A.S.
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To say oh my ride got perked yours is next is not a valid or insightful look into what promises to be progression in a gaming genre that has almost remained unchanged since its inception.
Not valid? It is my understanding that the F4U-1C is to be perked because of it's popularity and nothing else. What other conclusion can one draw?
Qualifier: I no longer fly the F4U-1C. My ac of choice are the Typhoon, the P51 and the F4U-1D, in that order.
[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Perking due to popularity should lead to some outstanding whines in the future. I look forward to enjoying those threads.
The -1C is a popular plane. It has 2x the kills of tne next most effective A/C. I bet it has an even greater lead when compared solely as a Ground Vehicle killer. Nothing else comes close. Maybe we need another good Ground Attack aircraft to lessen the number of C's that are flown? Think of it as another option. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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id rather have the F4U-4C perked and drop the -1C.
maybe make field mods for planes that carried them. like 4 20mms for the F4U-1
but cost perk points to fly with each flight.
if u dont have enouogh points u cant fly with the mod. same thing could be dont to other planes with special WEPs or gun packs
that didnt come original but were used
like MW50 on some LWers, or 20mms on F6s ECT....
whels
Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Yeager,
The C-hog is no better or worse than any other plane in AH. It has cannons and a good, not great FM. That's all. Pyro has already said that if he does perk it it will not be because it is uber just because so many people choose to fly it. What do you think those people will do next? Fly the C202? No, they will fly the NIK2 or the Typhoon. Leading to the next set of whining threads. Whining is like quitting or lying. It's a personality thing, a bad habit. Once you start it's hard to stop. I'm not calling anybody quitters or liars. But I am saying that removing the C-Hog only sets a president for future behavior. The P-51 could be next.
The purpose of this thread was to point out a whole in the plane set that will need to be filled after the C-hog goes away. Filling it with a "Secret weapons of the Luftwaffa" would be ridiculous and a F4F or FM-2 would not be competitive. The F4U-1 or -1A is the only way to go here.
And if we are to have two perked F4U's would you rather have a F4U-4 and F2G? Sounds like more fun that a F4U-1D with cannons.
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It is my understanding that the F4U-1C is to be perked because of it's popularity and nothing else. What other conclusion can one draw?
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I have no facts but is it possible that the reason %20 of all arena A2A kills go to the Chog isnt so much due to so many people flying them rather the guns being so lethal?
Yeager
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Exactly Yeager. Did folks miss Pyros posted chart showing the massive spike in kills that the F4u-1C has in comparison to other aircraft?
Popularity? No. Lethality and unbalancing capability? Yes.
-Westy
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And why is it so popular? Cause the chicks dig it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Like I said why such opposition to having certain planes dig into your perk point savings account?
As for Uber ride whines well the N1K and the F4U-C have been known to cause some strife in the game, it is not the first time they have been called unbalancing. (Im not saying they are or are not)
And I also think that if you think Pyro is caving into
the whining shows a somewhat lack of faith or confidence in him. That in my opinion is not vaild or is it fair to him.
"Pointing out so now another plane will be perked you watch" is right on the money!
There are going to be perk planes in this game how they are to priced is debatable and worthy of debate.
But I feel that if a 1945 F4U-1C is to be of the same value as a Spit V both in points for destruction and purchase,there would appear to be some descrepency. If that can not be seen then obviously I think (not pointing anyone in particular)shows bais only because its affecting a person individually .
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He's the one who will balance to AH!
balance - B A L A N C E - not power, not numbers it's not perked because it's No.1 in popularity - no because it accounts for 20% of all kills!!! Leaving number 2 far behind... you can ride your CHog all day - but do something for it!!!
Hey even if we had to pay 5 perkies for a F4U and I would intend to fly it I could now buy almost a hundred rides...!! Learn to fly and not to count on Hispano MarkII Lasers. And for all the hardcore F4U lovers we still have the D!!! Besides, D gives good amount of perkies so it won't be hard to maintain yourself your beloved Cannon baby, will it???!!!
What I can read from the LW carrier thread (my personal whine... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) you guys are sooooo historically accurate - so I guess the FU4-1C did account for 20% of all (axis&allied combined) air-victories...
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Rip, the only advantage of 51 over 1C is the top speed, and only by a few knots (range apart). You can bet, for every pilot saying he is happy killing Hogs in P51, you'll have hundreds of pilots saying they are happy killing P51s in HogC.
Yep, you can rack up K/D ratio in 51 to 100/0, but at cost of kills per time going down to 1 per hour unless you only engange with 100% advantage over single enemies.
Rip, if you find Chogs easy to kill is just because most of them are flown by newbies not due the drawbacks of the plane.
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F4UDOA wrote:
"Pyro,
First there is no need for a "perked F4U-1C". It has never been uber and other than cannons has no advantage over the F4U-1D"
So, then why do you care if it's perked? Just fly the DHog. It's Big and Blue too.
1) If the C is so ordinary and lame and unspecial you have plenty of other AC just as good (and one virtually identical, the Dhog.)
2) If the C IS so special and unique it would be horrible if it's perked, then that's the BEST evidence it needs to be perked :-)
The anti-CHog perkers are running into some serious argument failings here.
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Yeager,
Really it is the popularity. It has roughly 15,000kills and 10,000 deaths. The death total alone tells you how many people are flying them. The Typhoon has the same exact armament and the NIK2 has 4 cannon as well as the A8. Is the F4U-1C FM any better than those planes? Better than the Tiffy FM? It is the most popular by far. But certainly not the best FM. Most of the people that fly it don't fly it because they are dedicated F4U jocks like myself. They fly it because of a perceived advantage, real or not. Remove it from gameplay and the extra 5,000kills won't spread evenly across the plane set. They will go to the next great predator with a perceived advantage ie. the NIK2 or Tiffy.
The MA is like a food chain. Remove the Tiger and everybody will want to be wolf not a deer.
Whels1,
Your the only one who got my point. An F4U-1C is a waste as perk plane. Make it a F4U-4B/C or add an F2G. In the mean while give us an F4U-1 or 1A to fill the whole and break up the boredom of NIK2's and Hellcats flying in circles.
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F4UDOA,
I VERY strongly believe AC that never fired a shot in anger in WWII shouldn't be in AH, even as perk AC.
No cannon-armed F4U-4s, period. Perk a .50 F4U-4, that's great.
For the same reason I think P-51Hs are a horrible idea, too :-)
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Gentlemen, I was basing my argument on karnaks' post. I would assume his position on the reason this ac is to be perked is inaccurate. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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"Rip, if you find Chogs easy to kill is just because most of them are flown by newbies not due the drawbacks of the plane."
True, true. So I admit it, you're taking away my bread and butter! I rely on C-Hogs in arena, because they are my supper! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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We really don't need another variant of another US plane. Let's get some planes from other countries first.
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I say again. The only reason to perk a plane in my opinion is it's relative rarity in WWII. The fact that 20% of the kills come in a chog should have nothing to do with it. If it was represented in numbers that better reflected it's actual production that wouldn't happen. I know that they are basing the perk points on different criteria than that. But I see it coming down to one thing, which plane is next on the list. I see nothing in my opinion that makes the chog so popular other than the fact people can watch reruns of Black Sheep Squadron and day dream. It's a fine plane but I think there are better planes to fly in AH. The next plane on the list will be the Spit or the N1K I bet. I don't think there is any way to force people to fly a plane they don't like. Thus I say perks should be made on the bases of something more substantial like the actual availability of the plane in WWII. There were very few chogs. There were lots of 109g6's. There were lots of Zeros, dhogs, f6f's, Spits, Hurricanes (and there not on here) and others. I don't really have a problem of the perk point system being a reward for good pilots. In most cases the top pilots were the ones to get the best equipment. I feel a graduated system of perk planes needs to exist. Look at the planes that actually had the potential of seeing combat in WWII wether they actually saw combat or not. Also add in the special planes like the 262. Then make a best to worst list based on availability and flight performance. Planes like the P-47M and the P-51H and the F4U1-C could be the first planes people could have available to them. Next might be something like the 262. And at the top maybe an Me 163. Now lets not go into the fact that the 163 would be a terrible plane to dog fight in. It would be on top do to a combination of rarity and flight performance. Wouldn't it be kind of cool to be able to hop in a 163 when the HQ was threatened and rocket up to the bombers and take some pot shots. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Planes like the 262 would be seen in ones and two's now and then. The 163 would be see only when someone got the wild hair to fly it. The P-51H's and P-47M's, and F4U1-C's would be seen in 2's and 3's maybe a few more. All of these planes would have to be hard to get. These planes are only used to make an example. There a more of them that could be used.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Karnak, I consider the source so I shall ignore you.
Ripsnort,
What do you mean by this?
If you mean me, then, with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.
I have never had a problem with the Hispano cannons. I have always maintained that the anti-Hispano guys need to show that there is a problem with the Hispano. They have not.
The ONLY problem I have with the F4U-1C is how common they are. I do not get killed by them very often and I find them generally easy to shoot down. I just wish that I didn't have to shoot them down as often as I do. On my last sortie, for example, I shot down a F6F-5 Hellcat, F4u-1C, P-51D and an F4u-1C. That is all too typical.
If you mean the source of the graph, well, I'm sure that Pyro is incredibly biased against the F4U-1C. That is why he has implemented the wishes of each C-Hog whiner as fast as he could. NOT!
All I that I pointed out is that, contrary to you and the other anti-perk the F4U-1C whiners, this is a decision based on the unbalancing effect the F4U-1C is having on the Perk Point system. That is what Pyro said.
So, you are saying that Pyro is a liar when you make claims that the F4U-1C is being considered as the first perk because either it is too good or because HTC is caving into the F4U-1C whiners.
The ultimate source that you are considering and then ignoring is HiTech Creations, not me.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Jimdandy, I agree with some of your post. In all honesty, my position against perking the f4u1c is not because I am going to lose my ride, (that being the typhoon for jabo & P51 and f4u1d for ata) but that it is being perked due to the numbers, however one calculates it.
We will have another popular ride. Ever since I have been in these sims, there has been one. The WB spit, that famous P38 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) and right before I left in 2.76, the f6f, come to mind. Talk about whines, sheesh! In AH tho, if it gets too many kills or is too popular for the arena, guess what?
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I am not sure I am correct but I THINK that Pyro's position is that they don't want a few aircraft dominating the arena.
It seems that part of the intent of the perk system is to create more diverse aircraft usage in the arena. Since the carrot element of the equation (more perk points for flying a 202) is not effective enough, they are activating the stick element (i.e. limiting aircraft usage for certain models).
Right now about 30% of the sorties flown are flown in F4Us (most of these are -Cs). Part of the cause is that CV combat is so fun that CV capable aircraft are getting disproportionate usage. In another map configuration, which devalues CVs, I would not be surprised to see the N1K quickly reach the top of the popularity chart and get the same treatment.
I think all of this stuff about how good or not-good 1Cs are, how loved or hated they are, or how many were produced is all beside the point. I think the bottom line is that HTC doesn’t want to see any aircraft flying 30% of the sorties in the arena and they are going to limit aircraft availability to prevent this. The perk system isn’t even really operational yet so nobody knows what it is going to be like in 3 months. Pyro says they are not going to do anything that “hurts game play”. It might turn out that perking the –1C “hurts game play” more than a high ratio of 1C sorties “hurts game play”. What I suspect is that the “low level” perk the 1C is getting will probably not affect the guys who really care about the 1C a great deal (i.e. Torque is still going to fly 90+% of his sorties in one), and that the habitual 1C whiners are going to whine just as much as before because they will still run into them frequently.
Besides we don’t really know how this will work (except that HTC is intent on minimizing pissed off customers). After we have perked Spit XIVs and Doras, 1Cs might be removed from the perk list.
Jay
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Hiya hooly! I see your point and your explanation is the best and most understandable that I have seen. But what about the trickle down? These guys who are currently flying that bird in numbers have to fly something. What is going to happen if the same numbers go to the Spit? In this case, because of the CV fun, the Seafire?
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Hooligan kinda has it.
Because perk value is set based on how popular a ride is, any ride that garners 20% of the kills is going to be worth too many points when killed by something that is unpopular, say a Bf109F-4, C.202 or P-38L. This meeans that the person who kills a few of this staggeringly popular ride will then be able to go out and grab his perk Me262 at a much higher rate than HTC intends, thus leading to a glut of Me262s, P-51Hs and Spitfire F.MkXIVs.
All because one, easy to kill, aircraft is so popular.
They are thinking of perking the F4U-1C because its extreme popularity is threatening to break the perk system. There is no other reason.
It does not mean that the F6F-5 will be perked if it gets 10% of the kills after the F4U-1C is perked.
It has nothing to do with the actual power or vulnerablity of the aircraft.
It has nothing to do with whatever anybody has said about the aircraft.
It does have to do with the percieved power of an aircraft.
I think it is unlikely that all the Quake High people will migrate to the same aircraft, but if they do it would definately be a problem for HTC.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 01-09-2001).]
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"The C-hog is no better or worse than any other plane in AH. It has cannons and a good, not great FM"
Thats true. However, the problem as I see it is that the CHOG has snapshot kill ability. You have no idea just how many, if not almost all the CHOGS I meet start spewing hispano at d1.1 when they are in my 6. They know all they need is one lucky ping and im a goner.
I gave the controls of a 12k alt CHOG I had flown on top of a low alt furball to my 12 year old cousin who barely flies MS Flight Sim. Guess what. He dove in, sprayed like hell, shot 3 guys down and then the killshooter got him (he pinged a friendly plane that flew past his nose).
CHOGS do not promote ACM. they promote spray and pray.
I applaud and I am VERY glad to see a hog behind me that fires .50's. I know that guy will have to outfly me to get me, not outluck me in a spray and pray gallore.
The N1K is next on the perk menu. It has the same snapshot kill power AND it has an amazingly good flying ability. Looping 11 times after takeoff is serious indeed.
To perk the P-51D may only come if earlier models of the pony are avaliable. It takes skill to fly the pony into a good firing position, albeit we all hate how it can run away if it screws up.
Perking is great for playbalance. If the P-40 and P-39 and planes from other nations of their time are introduced... would YOU fly them constantly knowing you will be facing planes that not only manouver better and are faster than yours (aka, F4U), but that will need not to ACM you because they snapshot kill you (aka, F4U-C, N1K). Its my opinion that HTC would then waste their time in making those early/mid-war AC's because so little people fly them.
Just see how many fly the 202 more than twice a week. Nice little plane, but quite hopeless against a CHOG.
I like the big blue bastard... on my gunsights. When I fly the F4U now, i take the D version, I find it very challenging to fly and very, very fun. I fly a CHOG, I know I dont need to manouver into a good firing position, just spray around the con at d700 and he's toast. Ammo wasted per kill: around 60-80 shells. Ammo on CHOG: Enuf for 5 or 6 kills.
Now gimme a PERK P-38K and ill be a happy perk point spender (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Arggggg!!! :0
Why does "perked" carry such a negative connotation?
Perhaps its a misnomer for what is really happening.
And as soon as one says perked ,the alarmists run out screaming the end is near the end is near!
Am I the only one here who sees perked in degrees or levels of perk?.
Ok imagine this HTC makes a tempest a dora a p47N a me262 ect the amount of planes in this aspect is more limiting than going in the reverse in plane set .
So what we are seeing is that there might be 8-10 High perk planes, the ones everyone thinks the F4u-1c equates to (wrongly of corse) since the F4U-1C will be perked accordingly to its peers.
Now lets broaden the scope of thought!
If this is to remain a world war two sim then to fill the plane set obviously HTC must look towards modeling earlier planes.
Therefore in order for this whole idea to work everything must be perked accordingly even a spitV if it were pitted against a ME109E.
Argue all you want that it is the pilot not the plane but in the Main Arena of virtual flight sims this does not hold as much truth as it would in real life.
Right now I find the F4U-1C an excellent gun platform, good manuverability,decent speed and the latest plane in the planeset.
Not the best (since that is subjective) but relative to many of the other planes it meets it does offer some advantages. When the later planes or more dangerous planes are introduced the effect of perking the 1C will diminish obviously but since the plane set hopefully will grow in both later and earlier planes,each plane will have to be perked accordingly.
Again I state Perked is maybe a misnomer.
Maybe "valued" or "Priced" is a better term
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Karnak, I challenge you to answer Apaches question to Hooli (since you can be so diplomatic with sentences such as "your so dense")
"These guys who are currently flying that bird in numbers have to fly something. What is going to happen if the same numbers go to the Spit? In this case, because of the CV fun, the Seafire?"
Then what? We perk until we have 4 or 5 A/C type?
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is it fair that the spit5 is used 100% less than the spit 9? Why is that? Who cares, it needs to be fixed...
The logical way to do this is either make everyone start out in say a 202 and everquest their way up or...
make the 1C (current demonized plane) available to all but only on the last 3-5 days of the tour then.... Look at the "graph" and if any plane is 20% more popular then.... move it to the "uber week" then...... look at the graph again and if any plane is used (for whatever reason) 20% more than any other.... move it to "uber week" and then..... look at the graph. etc. etc.
What a bunch of anal retentives... sheesh.
lazs
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I find this ironic. Everyone (well most everyone) wanted the perk system to help create balance and allow new planes to fly without throwing off the entire arena. Two vehicles alone have been doing just that. The chog and the osty. Now since the numbers indicate a disproportionate number of kills / sorties from the chog show it IS an unbalancing vehicle. Pyro saw it and based the decision on the numbers, not the whines. It's hard to lose your favorite ride for everyday play but if the goal is balance in the arena, the chog should be perked.
I do see a possible new outcome from this type of move however. I see that other planes might be perked for the same reason. The Spit 9, Niky, tiffie and so on based on the lethality of the guns. Is that a good thing? I don't think so as that means the early war plane set may end up being the default set if it continues.
I had posted before in a joking manner that perhaps we should perk cannon aircraft, or those that have 2 or more cannon. It may just come to that because the main draw to a cannon bird IS the lethality of the guns. Certainly the hog can be outmaneuvered by many birds here. If the FM were the issue the dhog would be equivalent in usage. It isn't the FM though, it's the guns.
Next question is going to be, where will te perk system go from here?
Mav
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Rip:
My guess is that once about 4 or 5 planes get perked (i.e. all the really popular ones) then there will probably not be any single plane which is flown 15% or 20% of the time. I suppose that will be it for perking non-uber planes. Furthemore when 10% of the arena is made up of F4u-4s, P-47Ms etc... probably none of the non-uber planes are going to need to be perked anymore.
Karnak:
The 1C is not "breaking" the perk system. This is in fact the whole point of the perk system. If the perk system wasn't going to limit availability of some aircraft and encourage use of some others, then why would we even have it? As far as the sky being filled with 262s, HTC can change the perk cost to fly an aircraft at will. If HTC decides that there are too many Spit XIVs flying they change the perk cost from 100 to 300 points. End of problem.
Hooligan
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Anyone remember what the most popular A/C with the most kills was back in beta? That's right, P51D mustang, guess its turn to be perked will be coming after N1K and C-Hog. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Hooligan:
[ In another map configuration, which devalues CVs, I would not be surprised to see the N1K quickly reach the top of the popularity chart and get the same treatment.
The N1K1 will be at the top of the popularity chart. It won't get perked.
The issue is HOW FAR it's at the top of the popularity chart.
It's incredibly exasperating to see people continually missing the entire point.
By DEFINITION, there will always be a plane with the most sorties and the most kills.
The question is HOW FAR we allow that gap to grow before perking the leader.
I submit the N1K2 will never be perked because it's blatantly obvious to anyone who actually carefully THINKS about it that the gap between it and everything else will never remotely approach the gap the Chog developed.
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Hooligan,
Pyro said that the F4U-1C is breaking the perk system.
Ripsnort,
I never claimed to be diplomatic.
In answer to your statement.
Maybe all of the C-Hog fliers will jump to the same plane. But I doubt it.
Now please stop spewing your lies that the C-Hog is being perked because of whines or how powerful it or its guns are. That isn't the reason.
If you debate whether or not it is a good solution to the problem, well, thats different. But your base arguement thus far has been: "What follows next in the 'food chain' of whining:"
Whining has nothing to do with this.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Where will go all the Chog lovers?...
The navy lovers------>to the Seafire, F6F and Dhog.
The F4U lovers------->to the Dhog
The Jabo lovers------>to the Dhog, Typhoon or Jug
The Hispano dweebs--->to the Typhoon
The Magic HO Dweebs-->to the N1K2
many dweebs will migrate towards the N1K2. However, I doubt they will ever get 20% of the MA kills.
F4U1-C is outbalancing due the fact that its never-jamming turbolasers make an otherwise perfectly normal plane a lazerbird.
either perk it. or give it true hispanos (with jammings, poor ballistics, gun overheating, etc). That way it will stop being outbalancing.
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I submit the N1K2 will never be perked because it's blatantly obvious to anyone who actually carefully THINKS about it that the gap between it and everything else will never remotely approach the gap the Chog developed.
How can you make that statement? What do you base that statement on? Thats nothing but supposition on your part. You have no basis other than pure guess work.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Hooligan kinda has it.
Because perk value is set based on how popular a ride is, any ride that garners 20% of the kills is going to be worth too many points when killed by something that is unpopular, say a Bf109F-4, C.202 or P-38L. This meeans that the person who kills a few of this staggeringly popular ride will then be able to go out and grab his perk Me262 at a much higher rate than HTC intends, thus leading to a glut of Me262s, P-51Hs and Spitfire F.MkXIVs.
I see what your saying but I don't think it will happen like that. If I understand right you start your perk points over at the beginning of each tour? Please correct me if I'm wrong. This would mean that the perk planes would not be showing up tell later in the tour. There wont be many of them in the 1st place. Combine that with the fact that they wont show up tell later in the tour your not going to see anyone out popping enough perk planes with their 202 to make up for the points they didn't get early in the tour. If someone is good enough to be bagging perk planes in there 202 right and left they will probably already have a perk plane anyway. If they don't they deserve one!
As I said my assumptions are based on the fact that you start every tour with zero perk points. HT and the gang upstairs has a good idea by now how many perk points can be gained per tour. They can average lets say the top 300 scores and come up with a point value that would keep these planes from being like flies.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Geez, that plane gotta has it's fans (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Maik
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Thats not the point maik. This aircraft is being perked because it has 20% more kills than any other. Can another frame do the same thing? Certainly it can. What then? How many perk planes we gonna have?
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I dont buy it being perked for its popularity. I mean if its perked I doubt another plane will jump right in and take its place by such a huge margin. Yes another plane will take the lead in the percentage of kills but maybe it will be 15% spits and 14% 51s. We dont know what it will be yet. People fly it for the guns, its why I would grab it, the flying BFG. Nothing wrong with that, its in the game use it.
Now give 5 people F16s fully loaded for A2A and 50 guys 202s. Who is gonna have the most kills? but by numbers which is most popular?
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Karnak:
Pyro did not say that the 1C broke the perk system. If you still want to make this claim, please point out the post where you think that he said that.
Hooligan
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Jimdandy,
As I understand it, you keep your perk points tour to tour.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Jimdandy,
As I understand it, you keep your perk points tour to tour.
Well if that's true my system wont work. I'm not sure what they can do then.
Someone help me out. I'm still trying to build on my idea. Is a tour the time between map changes or the time between map resets?
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Originally posted by Apache:
Thats not the point maik. This aircraft is being perked because it has 20% more kills than any other. Can another frame do the same thing? Certainly it can. What then? How many perk planes we gonna have?
Apache. Not nearly. The hispano has MORE THAN 100% more kills than its immediate follower, the F6F.
20% is the ammount of TOTAL AA KILLS by the Chog right now. Look Karnak's graph.
that plane is everywhere and killing everything with its god's touch death. so either we remove the unrealistic reliability and performance of the Hispanos, or you perk the plane. Simple.
BTW, again I'd go with the first (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-09-2001).]
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What is the basis for the decision of making a plane a perk plane ? Is it that it is a really deadly ride, or is it how much a rarity it was before 1945, ie. ta152, gloster meteor . I hope it is the latter becuase there are some planes I would like to see introduced that were ineffectual fighters, but very few of them saw service, ie. p43, or boomerang .
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Originally posted by Jimdandy:
Well if that's true my system wont work. I'm not sure what they can do then.
Someone help me out. I'm still trying to build on my idea. Is a tour the time between map changes or the time between map resets?
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-09-2001).]
Ok I went back and reread the perk point system. I think another way to do it is make the perk points good for only one tour. If you don't spend the perk points you have during that tour you lose them. This would also act like a rolling plane set. The better planes wouldn't be seen tell later in the tour just like in the war. Those that didn't acquire enough points to get a perk would have a chance next tour. Combine this with what I said earlier and we wouldn't see these perk planes becoming a common sight.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Said it before and I'll say it again...
the 1C never had a place in the game. The 1D came first and filled it's proper historical role. The 1C is little more then a gun option with a different paint scheme and slightly better preformence. The only basis of it's importance at the moment are the Marine markings. Other then that it had no reason to be here in the first place. It fills no roll that other planes, specifically the 1D in the US plane set, couldn't do already.
ALL other planes have a place. Removal or limitations on any other plane would impair the plane set. The N1K2 for example...it fills a major gap in the Japanese plane set and has no replacement at the present time. It has importance. Same goes for all the others. It's removal would also require those who use to fly it to learn another whole plane.
The 1C is that exception. Gun dependency aside, anyone who can fly the 1C has the same airframe with a different gun package already available.
I'm not going to say it actually got it introduced, but the 1C sure hurried along the inclusion of the Ostwind in the game after it's effects on armor. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) j/k but prolly not far from the truth. The M-16 did fine until the 1C came around if anyone remembers.
I would be trying every possible attempt to prevent the perking of any other current arena plane, but the 1C just does not fill any role that cannot already be done with one of the current US planes. One might argue ground attack and tank busting, but the real life implementation of the 1C was as an air superioriy and pillbox/ship buster and never engaged Japanese tanks in any kind of numbers. The other three can already be done with the 1D anyway (well we don't have pill boxs).
I've yet to see someone (and that's not saying there hasn't been but I've sure not seen it) present a reasonable argument for not perking it aside from the domino theory, right of the customer, etc.
So...why should it always be available in AH? What gap does it fill? This may indeed by the Archilles heel of the great number of US planes in the game...it leaves little room for reasonable argument over keeping a over-used and overbearing plane available on a regular basis when so many can do the same thing.
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Yep Jigster I agree. Perk it. It wasn't made in great numbers and, as you said, wasn't intended for the role it is playing, although I'm sure it did it at times. I will say it again. The perk point should not be bankable longer than one tour. Scale the points accordingly. This would bring in a kind of rolling plane set. People would bank there points tell the later part of the tour and you would start seeing the late war hot rods.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-09-2001).]
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[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-09-2001).]
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To all the chog flying drones, now desperatly squeaking bout the chog perk.....
stop whining! do you want cheese with your whine? whiners! crybabies!
Do any of these statmements ring a bell you chog cheerleaders? Now you guys are the whiners, how you like it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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the chog lovers were 190a5 lovers in 1.03
<finger> you oportunist bastards.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) hehehe, feels good to be on the other side of the fence, aye, GRUNHERZ!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I think there is no point in arguing any further - all points have been made clear and I suggest we just wait and see what happens!!! HTC gave you the CHog and I am sure he won't take it from you... you have to shoot someone else down before you can fly your cannonbaby, we Luft-(wobbles, whiners, berries) cannot take part in navy operations - so what! Imagine which side you wanted to be better...
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Originally posted by Apache:
Thats not the point maik. This aircraft is being perked because it has 20% more kills than any other. Can another frame do the same thing? Certainly it can. What then? How many perk planes we gonna have?
Sorry Apache, THAT certainly is the point here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). Anything else u guys bring up here is not proven. It's only Your expectations, or should i say somebodys hopes?
Fact is, the 1C IS unbalancing the Arena, so HTC had reasons for their decision. Why Don't youg guys just wait and see?
Be happy guys you'll have something were you can perkies for soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I wouldn't spend 1 single point for this "1-ping-wonder-killer", but that'S because I prefer planes that help to develop my sorry flying skills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
I'll only miss the points I get for killing them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif).
Keep crying Kids, it gets interesting, hehehe.
Maik
[This message has been edited by maik (edited 01-10-2001).]
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Well, dont be too harsch with our C-Hog friends now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, life is good when you enjoy AH flying only 1942-43 aircraft/variants, eheh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I really cant see whats the point?
If They perk C so what? Theres still D, practically same plane with other guns only. Is it because those Hispanos why some players are crying now?
I used to fly G-10 and A-8 with 30mm armament. Maybe HTC could perk 30mm cannons in 109/190 and let LW fly with 20mm only? At least I dont mind if they do that...
So whats the problem again?
oh yes...
Continue whining please, its very entertaining to watch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The very good pilots won't see much difference at all between flying the -1C and the -1D.
Its the average and below pilots who rely on the snapshot ability of the cannons (a crutch?) that will see the difference. Its my bet that most of these types will not be flying F4U's of any type as often.
Will everyone move over to the N1K2? Some, but not the entire group. Its way too slow, it has a really poor roll rate, and therefore is much more of a target than a -1C. In my opinon it takes a better pilot to be really successful in a N1K2 than a -1C. The only people who have much to fear from the N1K2 are the dedicated TnB, dives into a furball and kills until they are killed type. If this is the case, then yes there's alot to be feared from a N1K2. Otherwise they're mostly just a target to any other latewar plane in the planeset.
Will they all move over to the Typhoon? Again, some will but not the entire crowd. Yes, it is very fast, a definite plus. But again it suffers in comparison to the -1C in sustained turn, roll rate, amount of ammo, and its now where near as stable a gunplatform as the -1C. While the Typhoon has the same guns as the -1C, it doesn't have the other attributes that the -1C has that makes it such an effective plane in the MA. True, the very good pilots won't see much difference, but the average pilot will be no where near as effective as he is in the -1C.
Yes, there will always be a "favorite plane" in the game. But I don't see anything else in the current planeset or on the near horizon that has the attributes to be as popular.
And this is good! Diversity is a good thing in Aces High.
I'm not a Chog hater, I'm not a whiner about the hispano's, or any of the other standard pro or con -1C's special interest groups. But I do know that I will enjoy an arena with increased diversity, that I hope perking the -1C will bring.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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yeager i just dont understand why they dont listen to you.Seems perfectly clear.
Everyone, ive NEVER seen anything approaching a whine from yeager and i think what he is argueing for is in the interest of gameplay not some vindictive anti chog stuff.
some points for you all to remember:
you love the chog? you fly it well? then you can easily earn the perks to fly it!.
only newbie types will find it difficult which will reduce the numbers AND THE WHINES!
Hispanos are modelled with powerful ammo (he+ap) and evn though LW and others had mixed amunition types we have never been given them...but we havent demanded them constantly even though i feel it would be justified.As a LW flyer i feel we have had many of the plus points we should experience greatly reduced..reliability of 20mm ,extensive field conversions,availability(more manufactured than f4c anyhow) etc but we fly the planes cause we love them.
F4c pilots have nothing to stop them even though hispanos were notorious jammers, there was only 200 f4c's made, and you can fly from carriers.surely perking is justified.
Just give it a chance....stop bloody moaning youre so hard done by!
Just imagine your favourite planes were japanese or russian? you'd have 2 planes to choose from.they are the ones hard done by at the moment.When the axis have similar performance planes to the F4c's then unperk it.As it stands we have nothing that has so many plus points(guns,performance,ordinance loads,carrier ability etc etc).
play it fair and TRY the perk idea please.
hazed
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 01-10-2001).]
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Hazed, as I said, I'm currently on the "yes" side for making the -1C have a minor perk cost. We agree on that.
But please, don't spread half truths or outright inaccuracies as "facts" as is commonly done on this BBS as support for your position.
It only adds to the anger and animosity that is displayed by both sides.
Hispanos are modelled with powerful ammo (he+ap) and evn though LW and others had mixed amunition types we have never been given them...
This is completely WRONG. Every weapon in the game is modeled with mixed ammunition, including the German guns (MG151, MGFF, Mk108). Its been stated by both Pyro and Hitech since this game has started. If you look at the hard data of the tests that have been done, you will also see what tends to be information indicative that the MG151 uses mine shells in its mix. No not exclusive mine shells, but thats reality.
even though hispanos were notorious jammers, there was only 200 f4c's made, and you can fly from carriers.
While Hispano's were early in their service career plagued with problems (a common occurence among military equipment) these problems were addressed, and by the time the F4U-1C was produced were considered satisfactorily reliable. It was not nearly the problem that the Luftwaffe contingent on this BBS would have you believe. Ever looked at the early service careers of guns like the MG/FF or MG151 ?
Another absolute inaccuracy, is that the F4U-1C was a land based only varient. I still don't know where this comes from, but its absolutely wrong.
I would have to check my sources when I get home to get absolute facts because my memory is bad today, but the first combat action that the -1C faced was off the escort Carrier "Sihtok Bay" (sp?) during the battle of Okinawa, where it intercepted and shot down several Japanese medium bombers on Kamikaze missions.
Logically (since the only action that the -1C saw was during the Battle of Okinawa and later in the Battles over the Japanese homelands) that most if not all the -1C's that saw action , did so from CV's.
Hazed, your a nice guy and I have only had good experiences with you when we have flown together or against each other in the arena. But please for the love of God, don't spread these statements as "facts", because they're completely wrong. It would be different if you didn't understand that, but I've pointed it to you before. Don't lower yourself to acting like RAM and Fishu, your better than that.
I just wish both sides would stick to the facts, not propaganda and rhetoric. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Main problem with C-hog is its huge ammo load. The pilot can spray and pray for two or three hits.
Tiffy will never be as popular - because of it's lower ammo count and need to be accurate.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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The Chog has 20% more Kills cause its the only plane that can do every type mission
in the Arena. it can Jabo as good or better then any other plane, can A2A fight with any plane, can escort, can Anti-vehicle better then any other plane, and can take off CVs. no other plane has these abilites rolled into 1 plane. all the above make it more popular becaue its 1 plane that can do it all
fairly well, far better then its closest
competitor.
whels
Originally posted by RAM:
Apache. Not nearly. The hispano has MORE THAN 100% more kills than its immediate follower, the F6F.
20% is the ammount of TOTAL AA KILLS by the Chog right now. Look Karnak's graph.
that plane is everywhere and killing everything with its god's touch death. so either we remove the unrealistic reliability and performance of the Hispanos, or you perk the plane. Simple.
BTW, again I'd go with the first (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-09-2001).]
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plane bigot, racist
:P
whels
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
To all the chog flying drones, now desperatly squeaking bout the chog perk.....
stop whining! do you want cheese with your whine? whiners! crybabies!
Do any of these statmements ring a bell you chog cheerleaders? Now you guys are the whiners, how you like it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Kirin.
like i suggested earlier, either delet the
chog and make a F4U-4C and perk it or
make the 20mm gun option on the F4U-1d and
make people pay perk points for using the 20mms each flight.
whels
Originally posted by Kirin:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) hehehe, feels good to be on the other side of the fence, aye, GRUNHERZ!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I think there is no point in arguing any further - all points have been made clear and I suggest we just wait and see what happens!!! HTC gave you the CHog and I am sure he won't take it from you... you have to shoot someone else down before you can fly your cannonbaby, we Luft-(wobbles, whiners, berries) cannot take part in navy operations - so what! Imagine which side you wanted to be better...
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We add the F4U-4C and we've got a Korean War Sim :-)
There were no cannon-armed F4U-4s in combat in World War II.
There WERE F4U-4s with 6 x .50 in WWII combat..more than there were of F4U-1Cs.
There basically has been an infinite amount of confusion over the late war Hogs..mainly because whether things have cannons or not doesn't follow a logical progression in a time sense..and also because the "C" versions of the F4U-1 and F4U-4 both had 20mms.
Actually, if memory serves, way back in Warbirds when HT and Pyro added the F4u-4 they put one in with 20mm....there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, until it was finally conclusively shown that a number of books on WWII had mistakenly called the F4U-1Cs that were in combat over Okinawa with 20mms F4U-4Cs.
So Pyro took the 20mms off and put the .50s on.
Again, this was a long time ago, I invite corrections to the above story..I THINK that was what happened.
So, realistically, for "uber hogs" as perk planes, you either have the regular old F4U-1 with 20mm, or a super-uber souped up powerful and faster F4U-4 but with the old .50s..but you can't have your cake and eat it too with 20mms on the F4U-4. :-)
UNLESS Pyro ventures into having AC that never fired a shot or dropped a bomb on the enemy in WWII as perk planes..which I really hope he doesn't. AC like the P-51H and such.
Because then you start getting the "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" psychos whining for this German semi-existent super plane that consisted of 3 prototypes and that German super plane that existed only as blueprints once you cross the pretty obvious "combat in WWII line" (NOTE I don't include the Ta-152 and suchlike in such whining..it obviously saw combat and clearly should be added as a perk plane.)
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 01-10-2001).]
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vermillion my appologies but ive obviously read posts on ammo modelling and been taken in if what pyro and hitech say is true then im real glad.
Im not trying to spread false 'facts' just stuff ive read and honestly if pyro gave information to the contrary id beleive it,which as you have stated he has.
<runs a line through the ammo modelling arguement> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
however from what ive read vermillion jamming problems continued to plague hispanos in hi g manouvers right up to and including(although to a far lesser extent) the hispano MkV.
to show im not just anti hispano i give you this quote from a book ive just recently purchased.'focke-wulf Fw190 aces of the russian front' isbn 1-85532-518-7
''In the fw190 aerobatics were a pleasure!.Structurally,it was distinctly superior to the messerschmitt,especially in dives.The radial engine of the fw190A was also more resistant to enemy fire.Firepower,which varied with the particular series, was fairly even in all german fighters.The central cannon of the messerschmitt was naturally more accurate, but that was really a meaningful advantage only in fighter-to-fighter combat.The 109's 30mm cannon frequently jammed, especially in hard turns-I lost at least 6 kills this way.'
Hauptmann Heinz Lange 3./JG51 (70 kills)
As to the carrier question,I wasnt implying it was not carrier based just pointing out that in the present map its a huge bonus to be able to launch from carriers.
So in respect to me turning into GOD HELP ME ram??? no please dont even joke about it.
I take your word for it the ammo it same for everyone,I stand by what ive read on hispanos and now mk 108.and you misinterpreted my carrier statemant. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
hazed
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 01-11-2001).]
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Hazed:
I believe that every gun had increased jamming problems at high G's.
Hooligan
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The funny thing is that when PYRO removed the 4x20mm set and put the normal 6xBrowning on, you could see very few F4U-4 around. The dweeb-crowd definitely wants 4x20mm (FW190 apart).
Thanks GOD the NIKI is not CV based.
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The dweeb-crowd definitely wants 4x20mm (FW190 apart).
No not really Gatt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) It just makes them FockeWulf Dweebs, instead of Chog Dweebs.
I think that is actually what irritates the 190 crowd so much about the Chog. It does what the 190 is suppose to do, and does it better. They are mostly upset that they don't have the exclusive rights to 4 x 20mm and tons of ammo, like in other sims.
Whats the difference between a Chog Dweeb and a 190 Dweeb? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
One's blue and the others gray.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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vermillion now you have upset me!
whats the difference between a 190 and a f4c?
fly them both and see which is easier to get 4-5 kills in.
I never fly air to air with 4x20mm in the 190 because it adversly affects performance so much(extra weight makes it very sluggish).I see no such adverse effects on f4c although admittedly the only comparison i have is the f4d and it has 6 guns(same weight?).190 is not a dweeb plane or we would see many more online.Id bet my house that it will never be as common in the arena as the f4c,and please dont tell me more people like it and thats why its so popular.Its an easy kill ride and so invites quaketypes.
I think it takes more skill in a 190 to do anything.(jabo,air to air,buff hunting,straffing)
Id like to see you straffe and kill a flak or panzer in a 4x20 190.I dont think ive ever seen my 20mm destroy a tank and ive given up trying in an f4c its rediculously easy.
you tell me to stop with the
propaganda ..please do the same.I do not argue against it because i want my 190 to be like it i assure you.I like the challenge of the 190 and dislike the ease with which an f4 can kill.
please state whether you think the f4c is as hard to fly as 190, Id like to hear what you think.I know what i beleive and i think im being fair.
hazed
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
No not really Gatt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) It just makes them FockeWulf Dweebs, instead of Chog Dweebs.
I think that is actually what irritates the 190 crowd so much about the Chog. It does what the 190 is suppose to do, and does it better. They are mostly upset that they don't have the exclusive rights to 4 x 20mm and tons of ammo, like in other sims.
Whats the difference between a Chog Dweeb and a 190 Dweeb? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
One's blue and the others gray.
"They"? I guess I am one of the "They"? You are very wrong. I never take 4 cannons on the 190, because it's a big enough pig with just 2. Everyone in my squad does the same. The 2xMG-FF on the A5 are pretty worthless, and the outboard 2xMG151 on the A8 just aren't worth the extra weight.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-12-2001).]
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Well.. if you guys get upset about a post with lots of little smilies in them, your too thin skinned.
Hazed, the reason that the 4 cannons (versus the 6 MG's) have such little negative performance effects on the F4U has been gone over many times. Basically there is very little weight difference, in relation to the total weight of the aircraft and its engine power. So its basically correct, you SHOULD NOT see alot of difference between the -1C and the -1D. Its simple aeronautics.
But what I said in a joking manner in the rest of my statement is basically true.
Yes the 190 in AH takes more skill than the -1C, no arguement.
But the 190 takes less skill than say a 109 with a single 20mm, a Yak, or the P38. Why? They have so much more firepower and ammo, you can make mistakes and still kill in them readily. The exact same reasons the -1C is better than the 190.
Look at WB's and AW. In both, alot of players have the same attitude towards 190's, as players in AH have towards the -1C, for the exact same reason.
Thats where the FockeWulf dweebs comment comes from, because thats the attitude towards them in those games. Just like your attitudes towards the -1C.
The "feel sorry for poor little me, because the 190 is so bad" attitude is getting old. Compared to most of the planeset it has some very solid strengths, and its not a bad plane. No its not a wunderweapon, but it has strengths that you can use.
And I stand by my last statement. The reason that so many Luftwaffe pilots bitterly HATE the F4U-1C is that it takes what is historically the best qualities of the Fw190 but actually does it better. Dive, speed, high speed handling, and awesome firepower with lots of ammo, and in most games the 190 is the ONLY plane that combines these qualities. So in effect the -1C steals the fame and position, that the 190 usually has.
Basically the -1C "out 190's" , the 190's. And that makes them very very bitter.
Sorry if the truth hurts.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 01-13-2001).]
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I love early war and late war bores me others have different preferences. Most will just wander away when they can't grab their favorite plane for a day, a week or even most of a tour so.... RPS is allways bad. Those flying early and late will be fewer than mid and a good percentage of those will be squeaking as they fly.
Mid war only like current AH, like we have now is the most popular/least offensive. Lots of planes to choose from. Parity, choice, fairness but.... lacking a way to use early or late war planes.
Idiotic "perk" system is the worst of all worlds... 10-50% of all the planes in the arena will be noticiably or percieved better than the rest and will not be available to the new or casual flyer.... He won't care why,, he will just know that he is getting stomped by good pilots in ac that are unavailable to him. There is also no way to introduce early war planes. It's backwards... It is custom made for animosity, and it is an incomplete and unworkable solution so far as early war is concerned.
There is of course a solution that would allow everyone to fly anything, early, mid and late, they wanted at any time against planes of equal ability.
lazs
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verm... u are absolutely correct. As u know I have been saying that a Corsair is just a better 190 for years. Not only in the areas that you mention but, it takes off from carriers and has long range. The 190 is more fragile and has a badly designed oil cooler that allmost guarentees an oil leak with any engine hit... rounds are "guided" right into the cooler! The 190 automatic systems are both a blessing and a bane. good pilots do better with the ability to fine tune. The Corsair ailerons are boosted and operatee at even lighter pressures than the 190. If modeled properly, 6 50's are about equal to, and in a lot of cases better than, 2 151's and 2 ff's or even 4 151's.
lazs
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HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE, Haven't laughed that much for a while Verm. You don't want to be taken serious here, right (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Maik
[This message has been edited by maik (edited 01-15-2001).]
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Guess what Verm... Your attitude is getting old too.
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Ok, then explain it too me without using the words "hispano", "turbolaser", or "only 200 built".
Because if you use those arguements, your just proving my position.
I'm willing to listen, so explain it to me.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure