Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: soda72 on June 01, 2009, 08:48:22 AM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8077255.stm
Not a complete surprise, but they filed for bankruptcy protection today...
:(
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GM will survive, just say buh bye to the unions and all their 'legacy' costs... buh byeeee!
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GM will survive, just say buh bye to the unions and all their 'legacy' costs... buh byeeee!
heh hardly! The UAW is way way to strong for that. GM will emerge smaller, more streamlined and hopefully stronger. The union isnt going anywhere for better or worse depending on which side your on
you can say good bye (forever) of the trans am :cry I had held out hopes that they would bring it back one day.
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Only a total idiot would invest in a company failing for so long...... OOPS. :rofl
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CEOs making 200 million a year, mulitple multimillion dollar jets. Incentives the average working stiff can't imagine. Corporate America has forgotten their main focus isn't perks its profit.
Compare the American business attitude to Honda(?) CEO 1 million a year. When work slowed down they had their employees go out in the comunity to do charity.
American corporations are bloated in their excesses.
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The demise of the US car industry is scarily similar to the demise of the UK car industry in the 70's and early 80's, albeit on a much larger scale:
- Realization too late that rubbish products won't cut it.
- Unions with their heads in fantasy land
- Incompetent upper management.
I don't think all of GM will disappear, but its going to be a very different company when this has all shaken out.
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CEOs making 200 million a year, mulitple multimillion dollar jets. Incentives the average working stiff can't imagine. Corporate America has forgotten their main focus isn't perks its profit.
Compare the American business attitude to Honda(?) CEO 1 million a year. When work slowed down they had their employees go out in the comunity to do charity.
American corporations are bloated in their excesses.
Not all American corporations are the same. There are many who have intelligent folks running them and are very successful. You just see the poorly run corps in the so-called news.
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See Rule #14
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From what I have read GM China is doing fine. Soon you will be able to buy a GM product imported from China at a Wal Mart Super Center.
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Ford will remain, although Ford does not produce great cars, they are putting more resources into it and have remained a smart company. They own many great car brands and would not be a surprise if they purchase some of the brands GM is doing away with. I hope someone saves Pontiac...
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I have new respect for Ford. Their management team must have made some decent decisions to keep it going through these difficult financial times.
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I have new respect for Ford. Their management team must have made some decent decisions to keep it going through these difficult financial times.
$30 Billion in government loans didn't hurt either. But yeah, I wish I had invested in some Ford stock back when it was just over $1 a share.
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From what I have read GM China is doing fine. Soon you will be able to buy a GM product imported from China at a Wal Mart Super Center.
Thank you for adding to my signature.
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From what I have read GM China is doing fine. Soon you will be able to buy a GM product imported from China at a Wal Mart Super Center.
WRONG! Read up a little, GM under new management is not going to be allowed to import any of those great fuel efficient cars they make overseas. They will be forced to create and sell them here and before its all over we the tax payer will pump $100 billion into it, we've already poured $30 billion down the drain.
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I think he was being sarcastic...
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...although Ford does not produce great cars
Actually it does - just not necessarily in North America.
In Europe, after the abominations of the 80's and early 90's, they really got their act together. The Mondeo / Focus / Fiesta are consistently highly rated. The only thing against them is they have a slight image problem.
http://www.whatcar.com/car-review-summary.aspx?rt=2901 (http://www.whatcar.com/car-review-summary.aspx?rt=2901)
http://www.whatcar.com/car-review-summary.aspx?rt=692 (http://www.whatcar.com/car-review-summary.aspx?rt=692)
http://www.whatcar.com/car-review-summary.aspx?rt=2829 (http://www.whatcar.com/car-review-summary.aspx?rt=2829)
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American cars have always had an image problem because snooty magazine writers immediately discount them as inferior simply for being American. If they print it, it must be true. Right? I had a Chrysler Crossfire convertable (made by Mercedes in Onasbruck, Germany) that was weakly powered and rattled like an econobox. I bought it because everyone was slobbering over it, even when it was parked aside a new Z06 Corvette and a 300 SRT8 in the delivery prep area. My made in America Dodge Magnum doesn't attract the ladies, but it hauls bellybutton and the only noise it makes is out the tailpipes. I've owned a lot of cars and trucks and the only ones that gave me trouble were made overseas.
And as far as the government relinquishing control over GM, don't hold your breath. The federal income tax was instituted to help pay for WWI (IIRC) and wasn't supposed to be permanent. AMTRAK was supposed to be handled similarly in 1970. It continues to be subsidized. And the Supreme Chancellor in a galaxy far, far away said he would step down when the crisis had abated. :)
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$30 Billion in government loans didn't hurt either. But yeah, I wish I had invested in some Ford stock back when it was just over $1 a share.
Ford has taken NO MONEY throughout this ordeal, which is why they said from the start back in September: "We do not want any money."
GM took no initiative when the last administration allowed the use of bailout money. They were told to have an "action plan" within six months, this is why Waggoner is thankfully gone. Chrysler has spent the better part of the last 30 years on the borderline of bankruptcy.
But Ford started "Streamlining" back in 2005. GM tried hiding their books for a while and their greed/laziness finally caught up with them.
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Ford will remain, although Ford does not produce great cars, they are putting more resources into it and have remained a smart company. They own many great car brands and would not be a surprise if they purchase some of the brands GM is doing away with. I hope someone saves Pontiac...
The Fusion/Milan/MkZ smokes the competition in it's class. The F-Series are the best trucks on the road, bar none.
Ford will NOT assume anymore brands. They only have 4 to worry about and Mazda doesn't even fit into the picture.
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The F series is not even close to being the best full sized truck on the road. GM has better gasoline and diesel engines, far better transmissions, and better electronics. Ford has had the worst transmissions for decades, and the newer ones are no better. The Powerstroke diesel is a poor performer and is not fuel efficient, the Cummins is better, and the DuraMax beats them both. The LSx based GM gasoline engines are more reliable, more efficient, and make more real world power than the Ford gasoline engines, and the venerable big block is still the strongest gasoline powered engine in the light truck world. The only real weakness GM trucks have are the IFS setups in the 4x4 trucks. Put the big straight axle on leaf springs back under the front of a GM truck and it becomes near indestructible.
Ford may be the best selling truck (in most years only if you do not combine the identical Chevy and GMC units) but they are not the best trucks.
That being said, Ford's CEO has done the best job of running a company, proving that good business moves can help you survive even if you do not have a superior product (that has always been the case in the automotive world).
GM is screwed. Government and UAW control will only cause GM to go bankrupt again, and most likely it will be even worse the next time. The government cannot run a company, they cannot even help run a company. You need only look at AmTrak to see what government control will bring.
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The F series is not even close to being the best full sized truck on the road. GM has better gasoline and diesel engines, far better transmissions, and better electronics. Ford has had the worst transmissions for decades, and the newer ones are no better. The Powerstroke diesel is a poor performer and is not fuel efficient, the Cummins is better, and the DuraMax beats them both. The LSx based GM gasoline engines are more reliable, more efficient, and make more real world power than the Ford gasoline engines, and the venerable big block is still the strongest gasoline powered engine in the light truck world. The only real weakness GM trucks have are the IFS setups in the 4x4 trucks. Put the big straight axle on leaf springs back under the front of a GM truck and it becomes near indestructible.
Ford may be the best selling truck (in most years only if you do not combine the identical Chevy and GMC units) but they are not the best trucks.
That being said, Ford's CEO has done the best job of running a company, proving that good business moves can help you survive even if you do not have a superior product (that has always been the case in the automotive world).
GM is screwed. Government and UAW control will only cause GM to go bankrupt again, and most likely it will be even worse the next time. The government cannot run a company, they cannot even help run a company. You need only look at AmTrak to see what government control will bring.
I've seen the F-150 go head to head against the Silverado, Tundra, Titan and Ram. It wasn't even close. No shenanigans, just a straight up, equal tow, driving course.
GM did it to themselves.
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See Rule #14
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8077255.stm
Not a complete surprise, but they filed for bankruptcy protection today...
:(
Does this mean no more Transformers 2?
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Just read on MSN that a Chinese firm will most likely be buying Hummer from GM.
I am a third generation automotive supplier and the end has been in sight for a very long time. I just wish I had smart enough long ago to belive it and change my career path. When the dust finally settles from this, US automakers "and manufactoring in general" won't even be a hollow shell of it's former self. :(
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GM may make a superior truck but it doesn't matter because they can't build a passenger car with the MPG to compete with the imports.
The Malibu may get better milage than the Camary but it doesn't matter because their build quality is inferior.
GMs quality may be better than it ever was but it doesn't matter because all they build are giant gas hogs that no one wants anyways.
Rinse, repeat.
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Last year we had a family reunion up in yellowstone. I have a 6 year old nephew who was told by grandpa that only Fords could make it up to yellowstone since Chevy's didn't have enough power. As we were driving around the park visiting different geological sites my nephew notices a Chevy truck, and yells out 'grandpa grandpa how did that Chevy make it up here?' Grandpa turns around and says 'A Ford must have towed it up here.'
:rofl
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WRONG! Read up a little, GM under new management is not going to be allowed to import any of those great fuel efficient cars they make overseas. They will be forced to create and sell them here and before its all over we the tax payer will pump $100 billion into it, we've already poured $30 billion down the drain.
Lighten up Francis. :D
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GM may make a superior truck but it doesn't matter because they can't build a passenger car with the MPG to compete with the imports.
The Malibu may get better milage than the Camary but it doesn't matter because their build quality is inferior.
GMs quality may be better than it ever was but it doesn't matter because all they build are giant gas hogs that no one wants anyways.
Rinse, repeat.
GM has more cars that average better than 30MPG than any other manufacturer. And the Malibu is at least equal to the Camry in build quality. The problem with GM is their business model stinks. It has for years. And with the government in charge, it will stink worse.
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$30 Billion in government loans didn't hurt either. But yeah, I wish I had invested in some Ford stock back when it was just over $1 a share.
if i'm correct, ford took no money from them.
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Ford will remain, although Ford does not produce great cars, they are putting more resources into it and have remained a smart company. They own many great car brands and would not be a surprise if they purchase some of the brands GM is doing away with. I hope someone saves Pontiac...
actually, they DO produce great cars.
F-series pickups
E-series vans
the mustang. the crown vic. the focus.
all great in their own way.
around here, i see more E and F series trucks and van fleets than anything.
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if i'm correct, ford took no money from them.
He's misinformed, ignore him.
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And as far as the government relinquishing control over GM, don't hold your breath.
that'll happen at about the same time we get out of iraq. :noid
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GM has more cars that average better than 30MPG than any other manufacturer. And the Malibu is at least equal to the Camry in build quality. The problem with GM is their business model stinks. It has for years. And with the government in charge, it will stink worse.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/skilless/download-1.jpg)
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It's too bad that we are hanging on by a thread to keep our machine tool capability alive in this country. I hope manufacturing makes some sort of a comeback for this country's sake.
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It's too bad that we are hanging on by a thread to keep our machine tool capability alive in this country. I hope manufacturing makes some sort of a comeback for this country's sake.
Unfortunately Raider, most people cannot comprehend how important an American owned manufacturing base is to the security of our country.
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GM has more cars that average better than 30MPG than any other manufacturer...
...on sale in America.
Unfortunately, outside of America, 30mpg isn't seen as much of a target and neither will it here in the US when gas gets back to $5+ a gallon.
The Opel / Vauxhall brand is the only one in the GM portfolio that does economical cars reasonably well, but they're about to be sold off. I don't really count Daewoo in the 'done reasonably well' category.
FWIW, Chrysler are pretty screwed in this respect too. Ford, if they can meet US crash and emissions regulations, have a great European line-up which walks all over the Japenese competition and only loses out to German opposition on snob appeal.
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The best things Ford did, with the exception of Jaguar, were make the brands they bought, "better". Land Rover had the chitty Lucas Electrics that were not only garbage, but fire hazards at times. Ford brought the Bosch engine management system to that brand and the reliability improved. Ford improved the Aston Martin brand. They were sold because they just weren't profitable.
Volvo and Ford have probably been the most "united" European/American Auto merger in history. Sharing of designs, safety implementations and no red tape/politics. The same cannot be said of GM and Saab. GM mishandled them just as bad as their own brands.
Most see Ford selling Volvo, although I don't. There is no reason to sell them.
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He's misinformed, ignore him.
I AM?
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I AM?
Not you, read it again.
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In my experience Fords seem to just keep running while being treated by crap. Must be all the "behind-the-times" engineering. :D I wish they had quite "engineering" on F-150s in the '70s. I could keep one of those running from now 'till doomsday. You get into the '80s...they start putting crap in them I don't understand and don't know how to work on. But still pretty good, run 'em every darn day trucks. Of course, full disclosure, never owned one that wasn't ~10 years old, so don't really know what they are like now.
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Not you, read it again.
sorry dude......i've been getting hammered here at CAP.....took a quick second to read this bbs....and for a second thought you meant that towards me......re-reading it, i realize that you're telling me to ignore him.
:aok
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In my experience Fords seem to just keep running while being treated by crap. Must be all the "behind-the-times" engineering. :D I wish they had quite "engineering" on F-150s in the '70s. I could keep one of those running from now 'till doomsday. You get into the '80s...they start putting crap in them I don't understand and don't know how to work on. But still pretty good, run 'em every darn day trucks. Of course, full disclosure, never owned one that wasn't ~10 years old, so don't really know what they are like now.
in the 70's, ford used the duraspark ignition systems. they sucked. in the 80's they used EEC3, and MCU, then EEC4. EEC3, and MCU sucked. EEC4 was actually a VERY good engine management system. most hated it, due to the difficulty in diagnosing it. they thought, that since ford didn;t set it up to give datastream information, that it was a poor system. it was actually lightyears beyond the gm or chrysler control systems. and using your head, and diagnostic equipment properly, was VERY easy to diagnose. todays techs are spoiled with the control systems we have now.
ever since the EEC4 system, fords control systems have had the ability to adapt, or learn. gm and chrysler systems did not. that's what the PROM chip was in the gm computers. it was the programming.(i think)
ford computers didn't need this. i've replaced many many more gm computers, than fords and chryslers combined.
now on the other hand, fords have their common problems, like the DPFE sensors, and sticking IAC's,
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sorry dude......i've been getting hammered here at CAP.....took a quick second to read this bbs....and for a second thought you meant that towards me......re-reading it, i realize that you're telling me to ignore him.
:aok
:aok :rock
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In my experience Fords seem to just keep running while being treated by crap. Must be all the "behind-the-times" engineering. :D I wish they had quite "engineering" on F-150s in the '70s. I could keep one of those running from now 'till doomsday. You get into the '80s...they start putting crap in them I don't understand and don't know how to work on. But still pretty good, run 'em every darn day trucks. Of course, full disclosure, never owned one that wasn't ~10 years old, so don't really know what they are like now.
The Mid 80's-late 80's F series were garbage, I'll give anyone that. But they still have the best overall drivetrain on the planet today. Especially the 250's and 350's, they still use the Dana's. Their rear axle bests anything that Dodge can put out. The only decent axle from GM is the 14 bolt, but even it has it's issues.
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The best things Ford did, with the exception of Jaguar, were make the brands they bought, "better". Land Rover had the chitty Lucas Electrics that were not only garbage, but fire hazards at times. Ford brought the Bosch engine management system to that brand and the reliability improved. Ford improved the Aston Martin brand. They were sold because they just weren't profitable.
Volvo and Ford have probably been the most "united" European/American Auto merger in history. Sharing of designs, safety implementations and no red tape/politics. The same cannot be said of GM and Saab. GM mishandled them just as bad as their own brands.
Most see Ford selling Volvo, although I don't. There is no reason to sell them.
Land Rover and Aston were profitable. Aston was sold to raise capitol. Land Rover was the sweetener for someone to take Jaguar off their hands. I agree that both were much better companies after Ford than before though.
Ford did make Jaguar better as well. It just took them longer and cost more than they ever thought. Ironically, they've bailed just as they finally seem to have gotten it right. The XK and XF are stunning and the new XJ is due out soon. Those are all the fruits of Ford's work. Its now OK to be under 50 and drive a Jag because they are cool. They've also done well in customer sat surveys for a number of years (although I think these surveys are more a representation of a customers expectations of a vehicle rather than the reality i.e. buy a Kia and you'll rave about it if the engine starts each time you turn it whereas buy a Merc and you'll slate it if the leather isn't the right kind of soft). All that said, with the current economic climate, it'll be some time before Jag turns a profit so offloading them was probably the right thing to do. Can't help feeling Tata are going to make a killing from them though.
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Bye bye GM...hello Government Motors.
rkanjl
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Land Rover and Aston were profitable. Aston was sold to raise capitol. Land Rover was the sweetener for someone to take Jaguar off their hands. I agree that both were much better companies after Ford than before though.
Ford did make Jaguar better as well. It just took them longer and cost more than they ever thought. Ironically, they've bailed just as they finally seem to have gotten it right. The XK and XF are stunning and the new XJ is due out soon. Those are all the fruits of Ford's work. Its now OK to be under 50 and drive a Jag because they are cool. They've also done well in customer sat surveys for a number of years (although I think these surveys are more a representation of a customers expectations of a vehicle rather than the reality i.e. buy a Kia and you'll rave about it if the engine starts each time you turn it whereas buy a Merc and you'll slate it if the leather isn't the right kind of soft). All that said, with the current economic climate, it'll be some time before Jag turns a profit so offloading them was probably the right thing to do. Can't help feeling Tata are going to make a killing from them though.
Incorrect. Reliability with Jaguar never improved, XK8's were plagued with electrical issues. The X types have been plagued with shoddy interior fit and finsih, electrical issues and literally being a rebadged Mondeo. Jaguar never turned a profit from when they were purchased by Ford from 1989 until they sold it. Aston Martin and Land Rover never turned profits. That is why they dumped the "Premier Auto Group" in California, PAG HQ's.
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Incorrect. Reliability with Jaguar never improved, XK8's were plagued with electrical issues. The X types have been plagued with shoddy interior fit and finsih, electrical issues and literally being a rebadged Mondeo. Jaguar never turned a profit from when they were purchased by Ford from 1989 until they sold it. Aston Martin and Land Rover never turned profits. That is why they dumped the "Premier Auto Group" in California, PAG HQ's.
jag's also had a LOT of suspension issues.
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Incorrect. Reliability with Jaguar never improved, XK8's were plagued with electrical issues. The X types have been plagued with shoddy interior fit and finsih, electrical issues and literally being a rebadged Mondeo. Jaguar never turned a profit from when they were purchased by Ford from 1989 until they sold it. Aston Martin and Land Rover never turned profits. That is why they dumped the "Premier Auto Group" in California, PAG HQ's.
Results from both sides of the pond
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/jd-power-customer-satisfaction-poll-08/executive-cars/232612 (http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/jd-power-customer-satisfaction-poll-08/executive-cars/232612)
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/19/jaguar-and-buick-upset-lexus-in-j-d-power-2009-vehicle-dependab/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/19/jaguar-and-buick-upset-lexus-in-j-d-power-2009-vehicle-dependab/)
http://www.whatcar.com/NonCar/7588125111.jpg (http://www.whatcar.com/NonCar/7588125111.jpg)
I'll grant you the X-Type was a poor effort, but other than that, the cars were good. However, until this latest generation of vehicles, they were mired with stupid retro look that alienated the under 50's that were buying Mercs, BMW and Lexus in droves.
Almost every report I can find says Land Rover and Aston were profitable when sold - by as much as $1.2 billion in Land Rover's case according to some reports.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-jaguar-and-land-rover-now-profitable.html (http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-jaguar-and-land-rover-now-profitable.html)
If you've information to the contrary, post it.
PAG overall was never profitable, but that was mainly because of Jaguar. Hence I stand by my statement that Aston was sold to raise cash for Ford's restructuring whilst Land Rover was used to sweeten the deal for whoever would take Jaguar off their hands.
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The Designs of Aston Martin going in were excellent. However, the head of the design team for Jaguar was appointed to Head of Design for Aston Martin, drawing criticism of "stale designs seen before on Jaguars".
Volvo and Lincoln were the only "profiteers" from PAG.
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The Designs of Aston Martin going in were excellent. However, the head of the design team for Jaguar was appointed to Head of Design for Aston Martin, drawing criticism of "stale designs seen before on Jaguars".
Volvo and Lincoln were the only "profiteers" from PAG.
If you are referring to Iain Callum, you've got it the wrong way around - he actually moved to Jaguar after designing the Aston DB7 and Vanquish (he was actually a contractor and never directly employed by Aston). His first design for Jaguar was the XK, which was criticized by some for looking too much like an Aston DB9. To quote Jeremy Clarkson, "that's like criticizing a man for looking too much like Brad Pitt".
Again, if you've got any links to show either Land Rover or Aston weren't profitable at the time of their sales post them. The only info I can find says they were.
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Well, I guess the Ford vs Chevy duel is finally over! Chevy DNF's,
FORD wins! :furious :furious :furious I'm a Chevy guy too!
This whole GM bankruptcy deal, is one of the biggest ripoffs in history!
I'll never buy another GM product, because I won't support this corrupt
govt takover, and theft from the real investors!!!
RC
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Again, if you've got any links to show either Land Rover or Aston weren't profitable at the time of their sales post them. The only info I can find says they were.
I will give you this - over the lifetime of Ford's ownership, Land Rover cost them money. Any profits they saw in the last years of their ownership would not have made up for the investment they made.
On the other hand, what they did with Aston was remarkable - turning a 600 a year car company that had never once in 75 years turned a profit to a 7000 a year car company with a balance sheet in the black.
We've probably hijacked this thread enough now so I'll shut up.