Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kieren on February 06, 2000, 09:42:00 PM
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Don't do anything to the buffs- let them keep their alt performance.
Just let the fighters have their published alt performance.
I don't want to argue whether or not a fully-loaded B17 could really reach 35K. I doubt it could, but let's assume it did.
The following are published operational ceilings for these aircraft:
P51 41,500
Spit IX 42,000
F4U-1D 37,500
109F4 39,370
P47 43,000
P38L 44,000
N1K2J 35,302
C202 37,730
B17G 35,700
I don't know why the performances are as they are in AH, what numbers are used, whether it's a play-balance issue, or whatever. The simple fact remains: interception of high-alt B17's is impossible.
I tried a climb test to see how high the mustang would go. Got to 33K, and it just pooped out. True, I still had something like 500fpm climb, but I would never have made 41K, or anything close. ('course the 109 that ran into me musta been very surprised!)
With the ability to climb to alt off the map, then climb to alts that no fighter can reach, it becomes very quickly a discouraging and suspense-of-disbelief-jarring event.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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I followed a Buff once (CaveJ, grrrrr!) up to 30K +....just to find myself without fuel right when I was Co Alting him....sigh...
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Saw/Saintaw
BISHOP'S FINEST FLYING BRICK
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
http://www.wardogs.org/ (http://www.wardogs.org/)
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."
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[rant mode]
It is really amusing. While most fighters are underperforming in respect with the real ones, B17 are way overmodeled, like B29 that is. Real B17 boxes usually flew at 20-25K.
I for one never try to intercept high buffs. I dont want to get to 35K (wasting bucks and fuel) just to hunt some poor fellows.
I'll never fly scenarios against buffs modeled in this way. Hope HTC will fix it. Maybe B17 pilots will get bored .... who knows.
[/rant mode]
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Wolfs good bye mission was a 3 buff hit on our HQ last night. We were warned as they approached 20. 4 of us took off from 20. I was in a G10, the rest where 205s I think. We intercepted at 28k. 1st one was stopped before it got to HQ, Second one was dropped after first drop but befor enough was droped on HQ. The last one got the HQ(way to go bloom) but we got him egressing near 19.
I think total losses where 3 interceptors for the 3 bombers. I am sure that the buffs fly too high but HTC seems to have it pretty close. This mission seemed balanced about right.
The compression of the terrain makes it hard to get warning on the StatosBombers but if they have increased the climb of the 17 it is probebly to let it climb in such a restricted distance.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Thing is, from 35k B-17's and B-29's couldn't hit squat with any accuracy. If they could have, then during WW2 they would have flown every mission up that high.
If bombing was modelled properly(dispertion, a real bombsight etc.) in AH, then the bombers would have to get much, much lower to be able to hit those acks...
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 02-07-2000).]
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Operational ceiling- altitude at which 500 fpm climb occurs.
Service ceiling- altitude at which 100 fpm climb occurs.
Absolute ceiling- altitude at which 0 fpm climb occurs.
Ceiling varies with weight. For example the absolute ceiling of the P-51D varies from about 37 to 41k.
I've pointed out some facts about the B-17 in another thread. If indeed it is "overmodeled" as Gatt puts it, show me. Go to oldmanuals.com and get the B-17 manuals on CD. They're not expensive and they have a ton of detailed info in there.
Juzz is correct about why this is. It's not the performance of the plane. We have some additions to the bombsight coming up that will impact this.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
"If it's stupid but works, it's not stupid."
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Well, I was obviously talking about *relative* performance.
Actually its almost impossible to reach and intercept buffs flying at 30K+ (sometimes still climbing) even with good climbers like the 109.
Last evening I was flying a 109G-2 with WEP and about 40% fuel. No way to reach a B17 above me at +34K. Is it right?
Multiple choices:
a) the 109 doesnt have enuff hp;
b) the B17 has too much hp;
c) Gatt doesnt know how to climb and intercept a buff.
Well, you can always choose c) ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Agreed Pyro. This is why I stopped at 33K- I had 500fpm at that point. Still, the ceiling numbers I quoted were for operational ceilings. I will look for more references, but I'm pretty sure they will back my point. The mustang in my test appeared to be 8k below its published operational ceiling. This would be a considerable difference if evidence can back that up.
Look, I know many of the reasons the B17's operate so well here- they operate in (a) theoretically perfect environment/conditions. It still remains clear that there is an imbalance in the performance regimes of fighters and bombers, and that difference can be/is exploited in a detrimental way.
Or maybe I'm just being a tighta**. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Actually there is a fairly easy way to induce the Buff's to operate at more normal altitudes.
Basically, you add a "deviation" factor to the bomb drop.
So if you are bombing from reasonable altitudes, say 20k, then you will get very close to your "crosshair" (but NOT the laser guided sight we have now). Then as you get higher the deviation becomes exponentially worse.
So by the time you are trying to bomb from 35k+ you will be lucky to hit within a couple of hundred yards of your target.
This improves gameplay, and adds a little more realism to our bomber modeling, without needing whole squadrons of bombers to lightly damage an airfield.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
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I spoke with a B-24 pilot last week about operational altitudes and found out one interesting difference between operational and absolute capabilities: The ability to fly formation. He said that above 20k, the plane got very sloppy on the controls and caused the formations to widen to unacceptable amounts. The B-17's flew higher, in the 22k-26k range, albeit noticably slower. Only on rare occasions would you see a bomber flown over Europe above 30k due to the cold and control problems.
We are also flying airplanes unaffected by wear, battle damage, overuse, poor fuel, breakdowns, crew fatigue and the host of other things bomber crews faced day in and day out. We can fly planes here by the book since they are essentially in brand new condition everytime we take them up. Hence the performance we see.
MiG
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Pyro,
Good news on the bombsight. However, dispersion is of equal or higher importance.
The amount of air mass the bombs drop through should proportionally effect dispersion. They should be lucky to get one within the perimeter of the base at 35k much less pickle barrel one into a gun emplacement not more than 20ft in diameter.
This might be pretty cool. It might require 10 plane mass carpet bombing of a target if they want to do it at 35k.
How about contrails to distinguish bombers from fighters at long distances. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Keep up the good work.
Wab
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If mass bombers where needed to take the ack at a field down, it would probably have to stay down longer or something.
How about the laser acks need to be hit by bombers but smaller(50 cal or 7.92mm) guns pop up arround the field to harras but can be taken out by on call jabos...
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Thx pongo for the kind words. Our 3 b17 formation was at 26k feet when we finally got to HQ. (It was Fox29 farewell flight as well. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Unfortunately he was the first to go down, as he had taken off earlier, but only was carrying 25% fuel. He was empty by the time we were over hq, so he had to drop down and attempt to distract the interceptors.) After the first 2 bomb drop passes Wolf and I made, we both turned in opposite directions. I extended much farther than Wolf, and also attempted to pick up some more alt. Fortunately for me, every single interceptor, except one Spitfire, left me for Wolf. Wolf, despite the overwhelming numerical superiority, managed to take 2 down with him, and damaged another. Just as Wolf destroyed the first interceptor, the spit suddenly peeled off my 6, and dove on Wolf (who was now over 9k away.) I knew this was my last chance, so I made a tight turn away from Wolf back toward the hq. I had a perfectly clear run to the target and dropped my last 2 bombs right
on the building. Somehow that did the trick and I received the "HQ destroyed" message. Now I had to get home. I immediately turned away from the now approaching dot swarm, toward 20. Of course it was inevitable that I would soon be surrounded with f4u-1cs and n1ks, so I nosed down to gain some speed to improve my gunnery time. Not 2 minutes later a n1k dove at me with alt. I managed to repel him several times, and I think I got part of his left wing. He dove away, and most likely RTBd. Not soon after my beautiful b17 was transformed into a smoking lawndart. (Somehow my plane exploded at around 10k before I could bail.)
So...there it is, the ultimately successful, albeit costly final bombing run with Wolf37 as CO of the THUNDERBIRDS.
Salute to the rooks , you bravely defended your homeland yet again.
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Addendum to original post:
I checked multiple references again, and the majority seem to state the above numbers, though accurate, reflect service ceilings (as per Pyro's definition). I stand corrected.
But in a way, the point is moot. The question is about the relative performances of all aircraft, and to that end the numbers verify (to me) a possible problem. The relationship of the aircraft and performance remains the same whether these are operational or service ceilings. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I know of one non-BUFF plane in the AH set that climbs and handles well at 30k+. A pleasant surprize. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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Another Idea to increase more realistic buff missions, may be a formation command.
For instance, assume five `players' want to fly a buff mission. Two go in one BUFF and one each in the other BUFF's. Now once they are all airborne, the BUFF with two players aboard is the dedicated LEAD aircraft since it has a pilot/bombadier and a gunner. The other BUFFs then type `.formleft XXXXX', `.formright XXXXX', `.formtrail XXXXX'. The LEAD aircraft would then have control of all the BUFFs and the formation would tighten up. This would allow formations of very large sizes to be formed.
However!!!!! That is alot of MASS (No pun intended (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ). As such, control response would be very slow, and flight speed would have to be LOW enough to allow the planes to react to control response of the formation. I think this would make bombing more fun (Real box formations for defense) and attacking those formations a real challenge.
And the actual carpet bombing if they make target would look really cool too!
Now, of course, everyone would go for the lead aircraft. It wouldn't have to have a crew of 2 (Could be AP stabilized while pilot off gunning ...as it is now). But if the dedicated lead gets downed, the lead just switches to one of the planes at the front of the formation, etc, until they get home or until they are all downed. Once they are near home, have the guys in the rear of the formation type `formbreak' and as they do, they regain control of their individual buffs for landing and peel off.
Can HTC do this and what do you other AH'ers think of this?
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 02-08-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 02-08-2000).]
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Sorry Sundog. Fighter pilots need to master ACM and gunnery, I think buff pilots should master formation flying.
Good news on the gunsight. Hope bomb dispersion is in there too. Give high level bombers the ability to do some strategic damage with a well places salvo, but make it much harder for them to take out individual small targets.
popeye
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Nope, not performance at all, organization
that's what is missing, WW2 Lufwaffe pilots
took off ahead of incoming buffs with enough time to reach those buff's alt because 1, they knew what alt they were at, 2, they always came in at that alt, and 3, they had 2-3 hours to get into position. Flight times in the arena generally are too short (no way around that, we want to play, right?) so the only way to do a buff intercept is to roll at the same time the buff rolls, impossible unless you are a mind reader. We don't really fly Interception missions per se, the average mission in AH could be described as a loose cross between Barcap and Frie Jagd
which means the only High alt intercepts possible are from those people who can get there in time, usually the guys who were there anyway for whatever reason. This probably won't change given the time constraint which has to remain in the game,
(I'm not flying 6.5 hours to bomb a target)
but if we alter the bombing code then perhaps we will either see A0 buffs at lower alts, or B) buffs having to use formations
a large swarm of dots near a buff field would clue people pretty fast to start grabbing, as well as add some tactical spice, eg; fighters take off en mass from buff field, then streak low level to jabo enemy base while it's defenders strain to haul up to buff alts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Oh, we can all see the big strikes forming, and often call them out. Sometimes we don't have the luxury of doing anything about it (heavily outnumbered, trying to save few remaining bases).
I could also say this (hypothetically); at 9:00 PM EST I will be over Bishop HQ at 40K dropping 1,000 lbers, and there wouldn't be a thing you could do to stop me. That's a fact. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) If I can get 2-4 guys to come with me you will be in the dark for a couple of hours.
Oops! Missed this:
so the only way to do a buff intercept is to roll at the same time the buff rolls, impossible unless you are a mind reader.
Won't work. You will replane a couple times due to fuel before the buffs reach your airspace. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 02-08-2000).]
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Bloom.
The important note is that we were all at far away fields when you were identified west of 20. We all took off from the ground at 17..We all made the intercept. If some one had id'd you south of 24...we would have had hight on you. Foxes dive was suspected as a diversion, but it really doesnt matter, he can still have bombs.. I really got a good hit on Wolf with my 109 gun buss, I a glad that he got a clean kill on me not a mutual kill that was awarded to him.
I was closing on you in my second 109 when you where shot down at 19...There is no problem with intercepting 25-30k bombers...
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Pongo
The Wrecking Cre
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What I was recommending was something that would have the BUFFs fly more like they did back in World War II. They couldn't fly as fast as they do in here now and hold formation. Due to the aerodynamics (wake effects and circulation effects and just being able to hold formation) the buffs couldn't fly as fast as they do in here and hold formation.
Now if it is about organization, etc, then lets model the wake effects, etc. then the BUFF pilots flying formation will have to T-back to take those effects into account. I agree on organization when attacking the BUFFs, and the ability to do what I proposed in combination with the changes being made to the bomb site will add the need to carpet bomb. Based on what I see now though, which is usually one or two buffs hitting a field, rarely more, I just thought it would be great to be able to let people who wanted to have mass bomber formations without the hassle of doing so manually, and requiring fewer players to do so, would just add to the fun, since most bombing attacks were rarely carried out by single heavy bombers (at least in daylight).
Of course, depending on what HTC does to that bomb site accuracy, is there the possibility we may need some low level fast attack bombers? Mossies would be a nice addition (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
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B26 makes a pretty good fast attack bomber right now- I'd rather see Ju88's added for Axis.
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Uhm... Why oh why can't we get altitudes reported on the radar? Even just a teeny number on the 'bars' on the map reporting the max alt of a bogey in that sector?
Certainly WW2 radar had some of this capacity.
At least then we'd be able to effectively scramble against the 30K buffs. We'd look at the map and go "Oh look, the highest guy in that group is at 30K. I better grab a g-10"
~Lemur
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Actually, German radar had no altitude capability. Allied ones, especially late war could do it but only in a rough sense of +/- 5000 ft. And the farther the range the worse they were at it. Most german intercepts were spotted visually and relayed to fields farther inland.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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Sorrow, that's just ridiculous. Where did you read that? How can a radar not provide altitude information?
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Hate to say it Juzz, but I've read more or less the same thing. You had to be very close, and even then it only gave a range of alts. My impression is that it was as much an art as a science.
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After the BoB the Germans developed a radar system to cover France and the Low countries.
Dont know about the spelling but Feya was a long range radar that from stations in France could pick up Brits forming up for a strike while still over England, once they got high enough. Wutzberg was a shorter range radar that had height finding ability. Don't recall how accurate it was.
What ever combo (radars, eyes, magic,ect.)it was, the interseptions were good enough(Hight , position,)to cause the British to start using very low level strikes, gaing height just be for crossing the French coast to cut down on the Germans reaction time.
Will try to find some more info on the German radars.
See ya on line
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Freya for long range, and Wurzburg to track individual targets at shorter ranges. The Wurzburg must have given altitude info somehow, as they used it to guide nightfighters. One Wurzburg(red) would track a bomber, and another Wurzburg(blue) the intercepting nightfighter. They put the three radars in areas known as Himmelbett zones.
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I think the airborne intercept gave altitude in relationship to the pursuing aircraft, and there was a range only as stated before. The Mark I eyeball still did the final contact.
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Height finding radar was not in mass use by the end of the war, and early HF sets had a very limited range, most wartime intercepts
used the generic rule of thumb, mass formation hence bombers, starting intercept alt 20k,moving up to actual intercept alt based on reports from earlier intercepts,also bear in mind in the real deal buffs were intercepted from the time they hit the coast all the way to the target and back.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Originally posted by Pyro:
Operational ceiling- altitude at which 500 fpm climb occurs.
Service ceiling- altitude at which 100 fpm climb occurs.
Absolute ceiling- altitude at which 0 fpm climb occurs.
Ceiling varies with weight. For example the absolute ceiling of the P-51D varies from about 37 to 41k.
I've pointed out some facts about the B-17 in another thread. If indeed it is "overmodeled" as Gatt puts it, show me. Go to oldmanuals.com and get the B-17 manuals on CD. They're not expensive and they have a ton of detailed info in there.
Juzz is correct about why this is. It's not the performance of the plane. We have some additions to the bombsight coming up that will impact this.
You do forget one fact, that B-17 couldn't run at full throttle for long without overheating its engines.
In AH we can just ride up to 35k with full throttle and engine temperature doesnt raise, WRONG.
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True, but even with a realistic limit on full throttle time they could still get that high, it would just take longer.
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That might be true Juzz... of course, assuming that people had to run buffs at a realistic power setting, and that someone had the patience to let the aircraft climb at 100 - 500 FPM for a while, a WW2 B-17 couldn't glide home from Germany. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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For me the real issue is that we need alt data on incoming buffs. How can you plan an effective intercept if you don't know the alt?
I can definitely see that WW2 radar didn't have very effective alt reporting capabilities since all they could measure was distance and angle of the reflection. i.e. from far away it's hard to figure the alt. When he's right over you his distance *is* his alt. Still more an art than a science, but people got very good at this art (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So model this. Counters in enemy terrritory = no alt info, once he's 2 sectors from your base you get closest 5K and once he's a dot on your radar you get closest 1k.
Just add some shading to the clipboard map bars showing height and a 'shadow' under the dots.
That way there's still an 'art' to reading the alt data (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The massed buff 24K formation idea was just tried last Sunday in the little mini-scenario.
The buff formation was cut to pieces in less than two minutes. One buff, out of about 18, made it to the target despite rules preventing the fighters from striking until the buffs actually crossed into the "homeland" and despite a horde of P-51 escorts. Almost all buffs went down in less than 2 minutes.
Fighters have the clear advantage in AH EXCEPT at the 30+ altitudes. Many fighter pilots are way, way too eager, however, and pay the supreme price for stupidity. <yeah, I've done that too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) >
30K alt in AH is what keeps a buff alive. Even then, a fiter at 33K can have an easy time with at 30K buff if he is patient and smart. I've got the scars to prove that too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now if we somehow remove this single "ability" or "advantage" from the buff corps, they won't live long.
Further, if we seriously degrade the ability of a buff to hit a target from an altitude at which he has a fair chance of survival, it's going to greatly reduce the number of buffs you see in the air. Who will fly out on a "certain death" mission on a regular basis? Maybe a new squad, the Hezbollah Suicide Bombers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now I'm not a big time buffer, but I do it. Especially when my connex is poor and fighters are out of the question. I really don't care if HTC makes these changes or not.
So do what you wish with buff alt and bombsight accuracy but just remember every little change is going to affect other things in the game.
Gameplay will not be the same after these changes. Field capture will be much different.
Most likely, these changes will inevitably lead to other gripes and even more changes.
But that'll keep HT and Pyro off the streets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-29-2000).]
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Toad-
I didn't know we broke any ROE regarding interception- sorry if we did!
I think the buffs were caught by an overwhelming number of fighters, and that is where the need is. We can trim down the LW a bit, and then see what happens.
Splitting the attacking force would have divided the LW considerably, and that would have helped the Allies out in many ways.
You take the buffs to 30K and you can forget about 190's, simple as that. Above that alt the B17 and 190 have about the same climb rate and speed.
There is a happy medium in here somewhere. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Keiren, toad was saying that inspite of the rule and the fact it was followed the buffs got creamed.
Lemur assume the buffs are at 28k if you guess wrong then you have an alt advantage, or at least you are close.
Toad
Right on....people cant look at the whole system it seems and see that if you pull out one stick the marbles start to fall.
I wish that more of the people that have drastic recomendations would follow through and consider the effect on the whole game. Include that in their posts and see if they want to post it after they have thought about the domino effect on all of the other facets of the game. Try to keep in mind HTCs general concept of the game. One of the big things has to be that all of these fighters where developed in the context if intercepting or escorting bombers, many of the designs dont make sence without bombers. Like a Ferrari F40 without paved roads.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Yes, I see that now Pongo! *smack*
No one likes the words "play balance" but unfortunately this definitely a case where it needs to be considered.
35K buffs are untouchable, and we all know it.
25K buffs get butchered if the fighters have time to get into position, and we all know it.
Maybe we should run a scenario and let everyone go as high as they like. No, really. I would be curious how many bombers would get caught.
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Long post..sorry... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Kieren,
No, I don't think you guys broke any rules. Quite the contrary, I think you did exactly what you were supposed to do.
I just used the scenario as an illustration of what the real situation is when considering fighters versus bombers.
Lots of the previous posters refer to using formations of buffs "realistically" to solve perceived arena problems. Well, we now have a single data point in this area: the last scenario. Those who flew in it KNOW the results. (I like the mini-scenarios, btw. Look forward to more of them. Hoot Mon! Thx to Cave, the wee bitty worker!)
My point is as Pongo says. The massed formation of buffs just got obliterated in literally seconds when confronted by a large group of fighters. Fighters can kill massed buffs at 24k quite easily.
Single fighters (flown intelligently) can kill single buffs at 24k quite easily.
Single F4's or 205's(flown intelligently) at 30K can kill buffs quite easily if they have LOTS of patience. I've been on both ends of that equation.
Not all the fighters do well up high, and there seems to be a modeling discrepancy in some aircraft here. But, like with the guns, I trust HTC to give us a good game.
I suspect the bombers are the way they are because of gameplay. Consider arena numbers; most nights you have about 20-30 players on each side.
Do you REALLY think you'll be able to talk even 10 of them into launching a formation B17 raid? Do you REALLY think half of them can stay in formation for the hour it will take to climb and get to the target? Do you REALLY think, that after we degrade the sight into a carpet-bombing tool that they'll actually do any damage? Do you really think they'll want to do that again, especially when 5 fighters roar in and kill them all in 1 minute? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The answer is "maybe". To make this sort of thing work will require many, many changes to gameplay and scoring. Surviving a buff mission and getting eggs just close to the target would have to be high scoring. The damage you do to a country if you succeed would have to be dramatically increased to make it worth the effort. On and on and on.
It's not going to be just one, quick "adjust the bomb sight" change or something. It will be the beginning of many, many changes to rebalance gameplay to make up for the bombers high vulnerability, low survivability and inability to hit anything.
I'm not against change. These games HAVE to change to stay fresh and improve and stay interesting.
I'm simply saying that there won't be "one minor little adjustment to the bombsight". When buffs can't hit anything from their "safe" altitude, they'll come down and be quickly and easily killed. How many times will that happen before a guy just basically quits buffing?
Then, we'll have to have more change. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Toad-
That's a very fair assessment of the situation.
I'm not against buffs having a fighting chance- really, I'm not. Check my scores, I buff too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Likewise, I don't want it too easy to fly fighters.
What I want is the nebulous place where it is difficult to fight one against the other. What we have here are two examples of the extremes. At the time I posted this originally, our side had just endured another 6x35K B17 attack on HQ, and there wasn't a darned thing we could do about it.
I was in the previous Scenario(the one before this) and was a 17. Same thing happened, but earlier- we were cut to ribbons. And no, I don't think we'll have many people eager to fight in the Scenarios as buffs if that continues.
Still, we need to find a way to develop ROE for the Scenarios that will give each side a fair chance to be successful. We haven't found that balance yet, but we are getting closer.
As far as flight models are concerned and the MA, I won't chase any B17 over 28-30K anymore, period. It doesn't work, and it's made worse by the open channel taunt that invariably follows. Let those that do it "win". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)