Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Lye-El on June 02, 2009, 11:22:08 AM
-
Stick, rudder pedals, dual throttle control, and force feedback. $299
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10254338-1.html?tag=contentBody;stories (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10254338-1.html?tag=contentBody;stories)
-
Looks like they put some thought into the setup. Can't wait to hear about some hands on usage in the upcoming months.
-
I'm still weary about the joystick. Other than that I like the look of things.
-
Looks like you can hard mount very easily which is good. All depends on durability and stick feel. If it can't take five or 6 hours of AH a day then its not that good.
-
About time. Been using this annoying Saitek one ever since my Logitech wore out, and I will never understand why people suggest Saitek. Used the Av8tr and an X52 (not mine) and both are annoying, tension is non-existent.
Maybe soon enough I can go back to my all Logitech setup, assuming the stick lasts longer then then other Logitech ones. Course now I will have no place for my current "Rudder pedals" (Steering wheel set). :D
Features look to be great, plenty of buttons (Will confuse the crud outta me), glad they kept the Carpet grip on the pedals.
-
Logicrap released what now?
-
There's a short video that goes over all the features over at:
http://www.viddler.com/explore/blogitech/videos/12/0.038/
All I can say is, if this is built well and force feedback feels good, then WOW!
-Llama
-
I'm still weary about the joystick. Other than that I like the look of things.
leary
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
And wouldn't you know they made it only for right handers... haruph!
-
Is it made in China or USA?
-
I'd like to try it, unfortunately the history with logitech's joysticks has been very bad. Not worth spending $300 just to experiment with it...
-
Looks very cool and the promo vid was cool too.
I'M thinking if it wears out as fast as the 3Dxtreem pro it wont be worth the cash.
I burn through a 3Dpro at the rate of 5 a year.
froger
-
i recognise that hatswitch from the 3D pro, which means it will wear out after 6 months, rendering the setup almost useless (unless you use trackIR i suppose). the nasty "clack" when he flips out the carpet grip says alot about the build quality. it wont be getting any of my hard-earned.
-
Is it made in China or USA?
Nothing gets made in the USA anymore. Well, aside from multi-trillion dollar deficits that is.
-
Hate to say it but it would be a waste in here . FFB buffet doesn't work in AH2 .
-
leary
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
And wouldn't you know they made it only for right handers... haruph!
Well looky there!
I learned something new! :)
The only part of the setup I would care to try is the throttle. Looks good and has some interesting features.
-
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/06/logitech-g940-joystick.jpg)
-
I think Microsoft dumped the precision pro series because they were so durable nobody bought them again. I know I still fly with my first. And sadly probably last - dunno what I'm going to do once it wears out. Logitech sells you the stick again after 6 months - huge boost to turnover.
As much as it sucks it makes no sense building durable consumer products.
-
i recognise that hatswitch from the 3D pro, which means it will wear out after 6 months, rendering the setup almost useless (unless you use trackIR i suppose). the nasty "clack" when he flips out the carpet grip says alot about the build quality. it wont be getting any of my hard-earned.
The same noise is made on the Steering wheel set pedals I have, and they are built very well. They have lasted through 2 years of my torture and holding strong.
Also the HastSwitch looks more like the one on the Saitek Av8tr, Logitech 3D has an inward dimple much larger then that, and the 3D is more flat-ish. I finally retired my 3D pro after 1 3/4 years due to a slight calibration issue that got too annoying.
Whenever I can justify 300$ on one product, I may try it, or maybe the price will drop by the time I look into it. :)
-
Looks good, I better start saving.
-
I finally retired my 3D pro after 1 3/4 years due to a slight calibration issue that got too annoying.
This is exactly the issue with Logitec joysticks. Their potentiometers are utter trash. Calibration falls out and massive spiking eventually renders all of their sticks unusable, generally in under six months. There are some wonder stories of lasting years and years, but they're definetly not the norm.
If this stick has improved pots or even pots from out of house, I'd gladly buy it. Even then, it's hard to go to a Best Buy or something, play with it, and be able to tell that four months later the pots will die.
-
This is exactly the issue with Logitech joysticks. Their potentiometers are utter trash. Calibration falls out and massive spiking eventually renders all of their sticks unusable, generally in under six months. There are some wonder stories of lasting years and years, but they're definetly not the norm.
If this stick has improved pots or even pots from out of house, I'd gladly buy it. Even then, it's hard to go to a Best Buy or something, play with it, and be able to tell that four months later the pots will die.
True the sticks normally don't hold out long, but if they are going to make something this expensive, one can only hope they would use higher end parts. I use Logitech for everything I can except joystick for now (had to find something cheap at BestBuy), and have never had troubles with durability on anything else. I just hope this is a turning point for them in that area.
I will likely try it after a year or so, give people time to test it. I just hope this Saitek one lasts that long, Not really willing to spend more on Saitek or current Logitech Sticks. :)
-
I just like the non-centered ability of the joystick. Even with my CH Fighterstick I can tell when I hit center and roll from left to right or pull back or push down.
Then again, this is Logitech. I've had nothing of theirs, save for their mice and webcams last years. My MX540 mouse still works wonderfully after all these years. As for joysticks...well. I got a cemetery.
I would like to see CH use that joystick function though.
-
This is exactly the issue with Logitec joysticks. Their potentiometers are utter trash. Calibration falls out and massive spiking eventually renders all of their sticks unusable, generally in under six months. There are some wonder stories of lasting years and years, but they're definetly not the norm.
If this stick has improved pots or even pots from out of house, I'd gladly buy it. Even then, it's hard to go to a Best Buy or something, play with it, and be able to tell that four months later the pots will die.
I watched the Vid. It has no pots or contacts that wear out in the main axis. Not sure about the rotary switches.
Infidelz
-
I watched the Vid. It has no pots or contacts that wear out in the main axis. Not sure about the rotary switches.
Infidelz
Saitek uses the same "contactless" technology on the X52. Seems to me that threads are always surfacing regarding calibration issues on the X52. Did anyone happen to notice how flimsy the "throw" of the joystick was in the video? Maybe I'll be proven wrong but I'll stick (pun intended :devil) with my CH set-up.
-
Saitek uses the same "contactless" technology on the X52. Seems to me that threads are always surfacing regarding calibration issues on the X52.
My X52 Pro uses Hall effect sensors. Seldom do I recalibrate. The X-52 does not use these sensors as I recall. My X45 didn't last a year but the X-52 Pro is still going strong. More expensive but worth it. Love having no pots to start spiking or wearing the centers out.
-
Nothing gets made in the USA anymore. Well, aside from multi-trillion dollar deficits that is.
CH Products are made in the USA, everything is made at their offices in Vista.
ack-ack
-
My X52 Pro uses Hall effect sensors. The X-52 does not use these sensors as I recall.
Not sure how the Pro works, but the vanilla X52 uses Hall Effect sensors on the X and Y axis with potentiometers in the rudder twist and throttle.
-
Everyone seems to be oooooooooooo ahhhhhhhhhh over this. I like a few others here like the 3DPro but they die after a few months. For the cost of this setup you can get all CH gear and not have to worry about something breaking in 2 to 6 months
-
leary
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
And wouldn't you know they made it only for right handers... haruph!
leery
Sorry, I couldn't help myself either. :)
-
"Did anyone happen to notice how flimsy the "throw" of the joystick was in the video?"
I think that the FFB centers the stick when it is powered. Even if my HOTAS Cougar still works by the time that one is released I might buy one unless it has a huge defect that cannot be overcome by modding.
-C+
-
If your going to blow $300 on a set up I'd say just buy a CH setup and be done with it, I did :D
-
If this doesn't have the pots that cause all the problems in their other sticks than it might be worth a go. As someone else pointed out I have had a hat go to crap on Logitech as well though...
On a plus side it has a dual throttle so you can do the trim tab h4x uber ace secret to turn 2x as good :noid
-
Logitech made the best joystick I ever owned (The Logitech Wingman Force) - a twin motor, steel cable force feedback that felt perfectly real - and when set to the highest forces, we're probably "litigous"-ly strong. My series of MS FF's afterwards never even came close to the same quality of force feedback - they always felt far to wimpy to be anything but toys. (On the other hand, the MS sticks were by far the most precise sticks I've ever owned) The only beef I had with the LWFF was that it didn't have a gimbal to support the stick, it had a "pair of half gimbal"s design - so I had to shim it in places in the gimbal to take out slack that shouldn't have been there after a year or so of use.
Logitech also made the worst joystick I've ever owned (don't even remember what it was, but it went back the next day - I'd bought it to replace the Wingman Force which finally died.)
I'll watch for September hopefully - but I ain't holding my breath.
-
Everyone seems to be oooooooooooo ahhhhhhhhhh over this. I like a few others here like the 3DPro but they die after a few months. For the cost of this setup you can get all CH gear and not have to worry about something breaking in 2 to 6 months
Look, I still use thrustmaster flight gear that is older than some of the pilots we have in AH now, and I have enough spares to last for a few lifetimes, but here are the features, if executed right, are worth getting excited about:
1. "Contactless pots." Probably means hall-effect sensors. Should be super-precise and jitter-free, not to mention maintenance free as well.
2. Force Feedback. If done properly, this could be interesting. My 1st-generation Force Feedback steering wheel from Logitech (the one with the steel cables) is outstanding, and in GPL and other hard-core driving sims, these are the coveted wheels that generate better "road awareness" and faster lap times.
3. Three Electronic trim wheels on the stick's base. Excellent.
4. The bases have bolt-holes for serious mounting on a desk or cockpit. I'm guessing the force feedback is pretty serious if they decided to add bolt-holes.
5. Split throttle. Never played with one, but it sounds neat.
6. 8 extra buttons on the base of the throttle. Handy for controls that don't need to be on the stick, but are nice to have off the keyboard. The arresting hook or fuel-tank switching comes to mind.
7. Those 8 extra buttons can be programmed to light up in different colors. This might allow for some interesting "status light" ideas. Maybe one can be red when the gear is down, for example.
8. Toe brakes and adjustable tension on the normal movement of the rudder pedals. My old CH pedals don't do all that.
That said, I do see some disadvantages too:
A. Logitech Build Quality. It's been spotty over the years. Some are great. Some suck.
B. Not enough hats, but.... My FLCS and F-22's all have 4 hats on them, and this only has 2. That said, now that a lot of guys are using the Track-IR for views, hats might be a lot less important than they once were. I used to use 2 of my 4 hats for views, and now I don't use those hats at all anymore with my TrackIR. The third hat is used for Trimming the plane, but this new stick has trim wheels. I only use the 4th hat for the different radio channels and flaps, and two hats should be plenty.
C. Force Feedback. Is AH really capable of giving me useful information via force feedback? Can I feel a stall coming on any better than I can hear the stall horn or see it coming? Does the stick shake when firing guns, and doesn't the shaking actually REDUCE my aiming ability?
I think the potential for positives at least warrant checking it out and reading real world reviews of it in AH before dismissing it out of hand as garbage.
-Llama
-
C. Force Feedback. Is AH really capable of giving me useful information via force feedback? Can I feel a stall coming on any better than I can hear the stall horn or see it coming? Does the stick shake when firing guns, and doesn't the shaking actually REDUCE my aiming ability?
As I know it, Force Feedback is still broken in Aces High.
-
i have logitec force 3d pro still in the box if some one gives me a meat pie and a broken pencil they can have it, its complete rubbish :lo
-
2. Force Feedback. If done properly, this could be interesting. My 1st-generation Force Feedback steering wheel from Logitech (the one with the steel cables) is outstanding, and in GPL and other hard-core driving sims, these are the coveted wheels that generate better "road awareness" and faster lap times.
llama
Dont read too much into the bolt holes....I have a joystick w/o force feedback with the same holes.
Strip
-
Tried to order one already.. Have to wait until September...
Like the integrated 3 piece set deal...
I like Logitek stuff, Plan on buying one...
Guess that I'll find out when the time comes... It's only money!
RC
-
Interesting set up,but I'd have a hard time ever using anything but CH.I believe I purchased my USB Combatstick,Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals in 2003(I think),and I've never had any problems at all.Six years and no signs of wearing out,although I don't put as many hours into the game as others here do.
-
C. Force Feedback. Is AH really capable of giving me useful information via force feedback? Can I feel a stall coming on any better than I can hear the stall horn or see it coming? Does the stick shake when firing guns, and doesn't the shaking actually REDUCE my aiming ability?
In order: yes, yes, yes, and yes (so I shut gun shake off).
-
I think I'd buy it, as long as it has no contact surfaces and it's using similar tech as MS precision pro, It should last. Wonder if pedals are using the same tech...
-
If your going to blow $300 on a set up I'd say just buy a CH setup and be done with it, I did :D
Like the 3d pro but for what i have spent on them the last few years i could have invested in CH stuff..
Any suggestions?
what do you use?
If it's worth it i will shell out the coin.
love to know :aok
froger
-
I've had 2 sets of CH pedals lose the toe brakes with the same design fault... ch ain't perfect.
-
just bought x52 very good stick, joystick and separate throttle etc.
As i said before logitech force 3d pro is appalling, you have to set all force feedback settings to max and when you do it rattles constantly.
And most importantly you have to recalibrate on a regular basis.
(then again it could just be me not setting it up properly, i gave up after 6 months of use)
(its yours for a pie and a broken pencil) :D
-
just bought x52 very good stick, joystick and separate throttle etc.
Make sure you take good care of it, IE plug it into a wall-powered USB hub. The irregularity in current from an onboard USB port will generally cause problems and eventually damage the stick.
I went through seven X45s that way before the X52 came out.
-
Yea well imo the x52 series is crap...... I dont beat on my stuff and I had the x52 pro last year for 1.5 months and the buttons started to malfunction/fail. I spend almost 200 on that setup and it seemed to have a life of its own. I got rid of it when it showed no signs of trouble and probably will never go back to it again. Now I use the saitek aviator stick. It cost me 24 dollars LOL and the thing is a very simple stick with a dual throttle. They dont get much better than that and plus it has the vintage WW2 look to boot!!!!!! :x
-
I've had mine since a little after they came out. Over a year into it the rudder pot started to go bad, but someone sent me their unused stick portion and I haven't had problems yet. It's not that they suck, it's thst they're ectremely sensitive electronics that, when used normally, seem to be destroyed by the rough way the average computer treats them.
-
I've had mine since a little after they came out. Over a year into it the rudder pot started to go bad, but someone sent me their unused stick portion and I haven't had problems yet. It's not that they suck, it's thst they're ectremely sensitive electronics that, when used normally, seem to be destroyed by the rough way the average computer treats them.
I went through three x45's within 2.5 years and an x52 within 5 months. I don't abuse my stuff and it is not "sensitive", it's garbage.
Saitek sucks.
-
You're welcome to your opinion, but I've person still never had a problem with an X-series that wasn't due to it just being thrashed about or my PSU slowly frying it.
-
The irregularity in current from an onboard USB port will generally cause problems and eventually damage the stick.
A USB port on the motherboard that isn't outputting sufficient voltage will not damage your stick, even if the USB port voltage output is spiking.
You're welcome to your opinion, but I've person still never had a problem with an X-series that wasn't due to it just being thrashed about or my PSU slowly frying it.
If your PSU is frying your stick or any other piece of hardware, it's the PSU that is the issue and not the stick. You should remove the PSU and replace it with one that is working properly.
ack-ack
-
You're welcome to your opinion, but I've person still never had a problem with an X-series that wasn't due to it just being thrashed about or my PSU slowly frying it.
I not only use a Powered USB Hub, but I have a 750W PC Power & Cooling Silencer. Again, I don't "thrash" my chit. Saitek is simply garbage.
-
... And wouldn't you know they made it only for right handers... haruph!
So I guess F-15s, F-16s, F/A-18s, and every other aircraft in the world is made only for right-handers, huh?
Seriously, I never understood this complaint. It is what it is, and the pilot adapts.
-
I enjoy being ambidextrous. Throwing a football, bowling, etc. :rock
-
i have had an x52 for about a year, I have dropped it, yanked it, spilled beer, sweat, orange juice, water and sometimes slobbered over it while vulching a field and except for the occasional time that it gets out of sync i love it. It does take some time to get used to it. but it outperforms my beloved logitech extreme 3d pro joystick. and I love the 3d pro :salute
semp
-
I have a x-52....Its 3 years old...NO PROBLEMS at all...
KAM
-
While the subject switched over to the X-52, I gotta ask about the tension real quick.
I have used Airflyer's X-52, and personally hated the tension, but with all the people who like it I wonder if it's just his; on his it is rather stiff for about 1/8 of the movement of the stick all around (With his it's the deadband) but once it gets past that it is very very loose, are all like this or is it he has just worn it down?
Not sure if I explained clearly, but if this was the stick: |-| and the deadband on his from side to side was about this: [ |-| ] that amount is very stiff, and if the entire movement of the stick was: \ [ |-| ] / The movement between the Deadband and full movement is about 5x looser.
Kinda confusing, but I am terrible at explaining things. :)
I know in a but he will come in and mention how it feels right, but someone who has owned and used the stick the entire time will always think it feels right.
-
I have a Saitek X45, I dunno how old it is - that's how long I've had it.
-
best thing i found out is dont mess with the settings but rather get used to flying the stick. I tried changing deadbands, whatever you name it. I just gave up and just decied to use the stick as it came from the manufacturer. took me about 2 weeks to get used to it and know i can ho and vulch like the best of the best. just takes patience specially if you like me had an logitech 3d which is a great stick, and only reason I replaced it was for a little more realism. dont give up you'll love it. only thing is just make sure the suction cups are firmly planted on your desk or you'll be having a hell of a time controlling your plane and for some reason my stick works better using the usb connectors in back of the computer rather than the front.
semp
-
Make sure you take good care of it, IE plug it into a wall-powered USB hub. The irregularity in current from an onboard USB port will generally cause problems and eventually damage the stick.
I went through seven X45s that way before the X52 came out.
thanks for the advice will get a powered USB hub :rock
-
I enjoy being ambidextrous. Throwing a football, bowling, etc. :rock
Why call it football when you your hands?
-
Why call it football when you your hands?
Once more in English please.
-
I fly with a WII mote.
-
Why call it football when you your hands?
Whaa?? :huh
-
I've had the original X52 for 4 years now. The spring tension is and has always been a little weak, but otherwise no problems -knock on wood-. I think since i've had it, i've calibrated it once, which was after getting a powered usb hub. I like the CH pedals, my only complaint is that i wish there was a way to make them a little wider.
I'd give the logitech setup a try if i didn't have a good rig now, it actually looks halfway decent but due to their reputation i'd make sure there was an in store return policy.
-
Which brings up the question, how many stores will actually physically stock this thing? Hands-on shopping for joysticks is getting harder and harder these days. :(
-
The design looks pretty good but, most people just look at the superficial stuff. Sure, the number and types of switches are certainly important but, for me, the internals are even more important.
For instance, someone said the hat switch looks the same as the hat on a different stick. That's immaterial as what's important is how it's made inside which can be completely different even though the hat itself looks identical. Of course this also works in the opposite direction, two apparently different hats can be exactly the same inside. This has been one of Saitek's problems, the hat switches, from the X45 to X52pro are all the same design inside even though they look different and I've had several fail. That's not a real big problem for me since I switched to TIR and don't use the hats for views, consequently they last much longer, but this is a terrible design flaw for others who do use the hat for views and the micro switches cannot be easily replaced.
Personally, I like the light touch of the dual spring X52pro which is better than the single spring X52. The problem I have with the stick itself has been mentioned by others. The cup and cone system, even with the metal cone of the X52, has too much slop in the center and over time this has gotten worse. There are two things that contribute to it and that's too much play between the cone and shaft of the stick, and too much play in the plastic gimbals. Neither of these can be easily fixed unless you're willing to have someone turn you a slightly thicker metal tube to replace the existing one or find a way to shim it. Neither of these appear practical.
What I'm looking forward to is seeing the inside of this new Logitech as it's the only way to tell how well it's really made. I'd like to see a good, heavy duty gimbals system, preferably with metal bearing surfaces and the ability to mechanically adjust it to accommodate wear over time. Adjustable stick tension would be great, perhaps this can be adjusted using the FFB software? A good multiple detent system for the throttle like the X52's. The throttle detents are nice in that you can program the stick so that pushing forward past the forward detent actives WEP and pulling back past the aft detente shuts the engine down (this is the way many modern jets select afterburner and engine shut down). This is intuitive and saves buttons for other uses although during an intense fight I sometimes pull back too hard to go to idle and accidentally shut the engine down. I suppose that hearing the engine shut down sounds weird to whoever I'm fighting but it doesn't really affect the fight because the engine starts as soon as I push the throttle forward.
Anyway, I don't think I'll be taking one for the team on this given Logitec's exceptionally poor track record of throw-away sticks but I certainly look forward to someone else taking the dive. :D If, for instance, all of the stick forces including centering and dead band is controlled by FFB software, there is a lot of potential for fine tuning this stick and who knows, maybe they've really got something.