Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Cipher2 on June 02, 2009, 04:29:46 PM
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OK, when i came on the website, I saw sneak previews of the new plane for AH, the Brewster. The thing is, I've never heard of this plane, care to fill me in? :salute
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The short, short version...
The Brewster Buffalo was an American designed aircraft of WWII. It was generally disliked by American pilots (gained the name 'the flying coffin'), and was sold to various countries.
Most notably of these Buffaloes were the de-navalized B-239's that Finland received (which is the version modeled in those screenshots), destroyed 477 Soviet aircraft for the loss of 19 Buffaloes. Many famous Finnish aces flew the B-239 including Ilmaari Juutilainen who scored 34 victories in the Buffalo, and along with his kills in the Fokker D. XXI and the Bf 109G became the highest scoring non-German pilot with 94 1/4 victories.
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OK, thanks for filling me in. Anyone have any idea when it's coming out?
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HTC releases stuff 'when it's done'. They don't give an estimated release date.
I'd say within the next month or two though, along with everything else in the works (redone Typhoon, terrain and lighting update etc.)
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It will come out June 16, on the dot.
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why did they choose to implement that particular plane? surely there were mere planes that would have been more useful ?
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why did they choose to implement that particular plane? surely there were mere planes that would have been more useful ?
Because Aces High is not only made up of the Late War Arenas. There are a TON of glaring holes that need filling in Early and Mid, not to mention Scenarios, AvA, and FSO.
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why did they choose to implement that particular plane? surely there were mere planes that would have been more useful ?
It was time.... This game has a dedicated population of Finns, many of whom have contributed greatly to what you get enjoy these days. Maps, skins, running Euro prime time events to name just a few things these gentlemen have done. These guys get together every year and their own Finn Aces High convention.
The Brewster was a very important fighter for Finland, and it is much loved in Finland, and not only by aviation and history enthusiasts. I've been involved with this game in one manner or another since January of 2001. Even before then, the Finns have been asking for the Brewster. Finally, they have it in the pipeline.
I for one, am thrilled to see this great bunch of guys get what they had hoped for these many years. When the update is released, I'm going to make a point to schedule flying during prime Euro time, so I can fly the Brewster and wing up with the Finns. The Buffalo will be great fun, and I will not hesitate to fly it in the late war MAs.
My regards,
Widewing
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The U.S. F2A version was a disappointment, but mostly due to weighing down the aircraft with armor and naval equipment. The Finnish export B-239 version was lighter and much more agile. I fully expect it to be a Zeke-killer in-game.
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The U.S. F2A version was a disappointment, but mostly due to weighing down the aircraft with armor and naval equipment. The Finnish export B-239 version was lighter and much more agile. I fully expect it to be a Zeke-killer in-game.
I wonder if we ARE going to get the F2A-3 as well, even just for Midway and to represent the British and Dutch exports in China and the East Indies. Technically the B-239 would be completely inappropriate as a substitute.
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The U.S. F2A version was a disappointment, but mostly due to weighing down the aircraft with armor and naval equipment. The Finnish export B-239 version was lighter and much more agile. I fully expect it to be a Zeke-killer in-game.
That may be a bit optimistic, but it should be a lot of fun against other planes of the time. Looking forward to it.
- oldman
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no disrespect but only a small number use the early & mid war arenas & the buffalo would be a flying coffin in the late war arena. i think it's a waste
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8 month old opinion noted :aok
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Is the Brewster going to have the .30's or the 4 .50's? What I read on this website (http://peacecountry0.tripod.com/brewster.htm) (Finnish B-239s had four 0.50" machine guns. The wing guns had 400 rounds and fuselage guns 200 rounds each (0.30" had 600 rounds).
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no disrespect but only a small number use the early & mid war arenas & the buffalo would be a flying coffin in the late war arena. i think it's a waste
Run into slapshot in an FM-2... then as your sitting in the tower try to imagine him in a more agile FM-2. :D
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well for 300 perks, you can spawn a full sized buffalo in a selected opponents living room.
If the buffalo either defecates in the living room, or does extensive damage to the house before the opposing player manages to remove it from the home, you don't lose any perks.
(http://medioxcore.net/gmr/post/housebuffalo.jpg)
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Run into slapshot in an FM-2... then as your sitting in the tower try to imagine him in a more agile FM-2. :D
the FM2 is lethal, should you choose to fight it.. there in lies the rub, if things get dicey.. it can be ran from by just about anything. I flew the FM2 quit a bit for a tour and thats what annoyed me to the point of dropping it from my "line up" you can put alot of work into a fight only to have your opponent simply... leave.
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the FM2 is lethal, should you choose to fight it.. there in lies the rub, if things get dicey.. it can be ran from by just about anything. I flew the FM2 quit a bit for a tour and thats what annoyed me to the point of dropping it from my "line up" you can put alot of work into a fight only to have your opponent simply... leave.
This is true of the A6Ms also. I used to fly the A6M5 a lot, love the plane... But it's too darn slow in the LW Arenas.
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no disrespect but only a small number use the early & mid war arenas & the buffalo would be a flying coffin in the late war arena. i think it's a waste
Axis vs. Allies. Scenarios. Snapshots. FSO. The latter three ESPECIALLY comprise a significant part of the game, and all would benefit from aircraft like this and other early-war rides. Competitiveness in the Late War arenas neither is nor should be a criteria.
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the FM2 is lethal, should you choose to fight it.. there in lies the rub, if things get dicey.. it can be ran from by just about anything. I flew the FM2 quit a bit for a tour and thats what annoyed me to the point of dropping it from my "line up" you can put alot of work into a fight only to have your opponent simply... leave.
That's the challenge of flying a midwar plane. For the most part, you can easily outmaneuver your opponent. But you can't just bank and yank, you have to wear down your opponent's E state intelligently to ensure they don't have a get away. If your opponent is smart (or timid), they'll run, climb and re-engage, until they can get you to make a mistake and shoot you... if they're not they'll stay in and die. I always enjoy these types of fights no matter which side of it I'm on.
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Altitude is the great equalizer.
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no disrespect but only a small number use the early & mid war arenas & the buffalo would be a flying coffin in the late war arena. i think it's a waste
really, how? just because it doesnt live up to "main arena" status? I fly the P39 in the LW all the time and it kicks arse. i see people land kills in P40s most of the time.
So really, how is it a waste?
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That's the challenge of flying a midwar plane. For the most part, you can easily outmaneuver your opponent. But you can't just bank and yank, you have to wear down your opponent's E state intelligently to ensure they don't have a get away. If your opponent is smart (or timid), they'll run, climb and re-engage, until they can get you to make a mistake and shoot you... if they're not they'll stay in and die. I always enjoy these types of fights no matter which side of it I'm on.
My favorite part is landing 7-8 kills in the FM-2 in the DA and watching the Tempest Dweebs go :O :O :O :furious :furious :furious :cry :cry :cry
:D
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Well, this is quite awesome. I didn't realize we were getting the Brewster. It's a favorite of mine. But which one are we getting- the F2A-2, or the B-239 export version?
The U.S. F2A version was a disappointment, but mostly due to weighing down the aircraft with armor and naval equipment. The Finnish export B-239 version was lighter and much more agile. I fully expect it to be a Zeke-killer in-game.
These are lies, and they make me sadface. The F2A-2 Buffalos in service with the US Navy had significantly more engine power that more then made up for their greater weight. The B-239s purchased by the Finns were modified export versions with 950hp engines, nearly every Buffalo used by the Americans were F2A-2s with 1200 horsepower engines. I'd put the performance advantage firmly with the F2A, but the lighter weight of the B-239 meant it wasn't very far behind in that regard.
From Wikipedia:
Plagued by production difficulties, Brewster only delivered 11 F2A-1 aircraft to the Navy; the remainder of the order was later diverted to the Finnish Air Force in modified form as the B-239E (export). A later variant, the F2A-2 (Model B-339), of which 43 were ordered by the U.S. Navy, included a more powerful R-1820-40 engine of 1,200 hp (895 kw), a better propeller, and integral flotation gear, but still lacked pilot armor and self-sealing fuel tanks... The Brewster aircraft sent to Finland were de-navalised (lightened) F2A-1 Buffaloes given the export designation Model B-239, fitted with an export-approved Wright R-1820-G5 9-cylinder engine of 950 hp (708 kw).[35] As the B-239 was a de-navalised F2A-1, it lacked self-sealing tanks and pilot armor. Before shipment, the Brewster Aeronautical Company personnel removed the naval fittings on the aircraft, such as arrestor hook and life raft container, resulting in a somewhat lighter aircraft.[36] The Finns added an armored backrest for the pilot, metric instrumentation, the Finnish Väisälä T.h.m.40 gunsight, and four .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns.
As you can see, the Buffalo's used by the US had more engine power, and the weight reduction in the B-239 was somewhat offset by the addition of armored plate and the four .50s.
The B-239 had a power/weight ratio of .16 hp/lb, and the F2A-2, .20hp/lb. The F2A-2 was 5,942 lbs, the B-239, 5,808.
For you Buffalo haters out there, it would behoove you to note that of the early war rides, the Buffalo was the only American fighter that had a good power/weight ratio (better then the A6M2, which had one of .18hp/lb, and competitive with the 109E,) and a decent climb rate. In addition to this it turned well and had a very good roll rate. To be honest, I'd rather have an F2A-2 then a P-40.
My question is, which Buffalo are we getting? Are we getting the F2A-2, or the B-239 Finnish export variant? They'd both be good, but for obvious reasons I lust for the F2A-2. With any luck we can get both- the differences in the modeling shouldn't be more drastic then adjusting weight/power parameters, and perhaps center of balance as well.
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Well, this is quite awesome. I didn't realize we were getting the Brewster. It's a favorite of mine. But which one are we getting- the F2A-2, or the B-239 export version?
These are lies, and they make me sadface. The F2A-2 Buffalos in service with the US Navy had significantly more engine power that more then made up for their greater weight. The B-239s purchased by the Finns were modified export versions with 950hp engines, nearly every Buffalo used by the Americans were F2A-2s with 1200 horsepower engines. I'd put the performance advantage firmly with the F2A, but the lighter weight of the B-239 meant it wasn't very far behind in that regard.
From Wikipedia:
As you can see, the Buffalo's used by the US had more engine power, and the weight reduction in the B-239 was somewhat offset by the addition of armored plate and the four .50s.
The B-239 had a power/weight ratio of .16 hp/lb, and the F2A-2, .20hp/lb. The F2A-2 was 5,942 lbs, the B-239, 5,808.
For you Buffalo haters out there, it would behoove you to note that of the early war rides, the Buffalo was the only American fighter that had a good power/weight ratio (better then the A6M2, which had one of .18hp/lb, and competitive with the 109E,) and a decent climb rate. In addition to this it turned well and had a very good roll rate. To be honest, I'd rather have an F2A-2 then a P-40.
My question is, which Buffalo are we getting? Are we getting the F2A-2, or the B-239 Finnish export variant? They'd both be good, but for obvious reasons I lust for the F2A-2. With any luck we can get both- the differences in the modeling shouldn't be more drastic then adjusting weight/power parameters, and perhaps center of balance as well.
Based on Pyro's previous request for info on the B-239, I am guessing we will be getting the B-239.
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Based on Pyro's previous request for info on the B-239, I am guessing we will be getting the B-239.
Too bad, then. The B-239 wasn't shabby, but the F2A-2 would be an early-war bird that can actually perform. :(
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no disrespect but only a small number use the early & mid war arenas & the buffalo would be a flying coffin in the late war arena. i think it's a waste
Good think you aren't in charge then. Some folks like the challenge of 'flying coffins' in the LW arena. Not everything has to be latest and greatest.
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Too bad, then. The B-239 wasn't shabby, but the F2A-2 would be an early-war bird that can actually perform. :(
Double too bad, because it was NOT the F2A-2 that saw combat. The American Buffaloes at Midway was the much heavier and underpowered F2A-3, (~1200hp and 6700lbs loaded) and the export model used by the RAF and Dutch was the same aircraft.
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funny how the people who know how to fly and fight (ACM) have no problem with this fine aircraft being added.
Listen up to what WW and Guppy said kids. This thing if it can turn (which it will) will be able to beat most of the AH population. 4x 50 cals from 200 or less will need minimum ammo to kill a fighter see P51B or F4F.
So if you can shoot and turn your onto a winner. I'm all for more minority planes and not well known US rides. Think early French stuff, maybe another italian ride. There are plenty of Russian and Japanese planes to do aswell. I'm guessing the only reason HTC hasn't modelled this lot already is not having 100% bulletproof (excuse the pun) plane schematics and performance data.
Would you rather have a game that is HTC's best attempt at perfection? or a game filled with loads of different planes that all perform very similiar and based on guesswork (BORING). The amount of hours it must take to get these cartoon planes flying anywhere near what they did in reality i'm sure is a pain staking process.
If I hear anymore "hangar queen" or "but but what about the X,Y,Z plane it will be l33t" I will take your name and hunt you down with this little brewster and make your day. ;)
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Here is the Brewster.
(http://www.cityhammer.com/blog/uploaded_images/Punky-Brewster-799635.jpg)
(I really respect those that fly the older models within AH, makes the game more enjoyable with a bit more of diversity)
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I've been involved with this game in one manner or another since January of 2001. Even before then, the Finns have been asking for the Brewster. Finally, they have it in the pipeline.
Yep... I can't remember a time when the Finns weren't already waiting for the Brewster.
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These guys get together every year and their own Finn Aces High convention.
Widewing
And the resulting pictures are always hilarious and a little disturbing at the same time.
That's reason enough for them to be given something. :salute
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first time I saw someone playing on a laptop sitting on the side with 90° screen rotation
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The B-239 had a power/weight ratio of .16 hp/lb, and the F2A-2, .20hp/lb. The F2A-2 was 5,942 lbs, the B-239, 5,808.
The weight you are using here is a bit too high for the Model 239 and a bit too low for the F2A-2. With full tanks and 4*50 cals Model 239 weights around 5672lbs. Also it seems that you've used the 950hp power setting for the Model 239, not WEP (1000hp). The weight you've used for the F2A is with 2 guns only and with only 660lbs of fuel. The weight with 4 guns and with full tanks is 6500lbs flat.
So more comparable power to weight ratios are the following:
Model 239: 0,176 hp/lb
F2A-2: 0,185 hp/lb
So the difference in power loading is actually considerably smaller. And as others have mentioned F2A-2 barely saw combat.
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And as others have mentioned F2A-2 barely saw combat.
The F2A-2 didn't see combat at ALL. It was the F2A-3 and its export version.
There are plenty of Russian and Japanese planes to do aswell.
Yyeeeeeeah. We only don't have: an IJAAF fighter for early war (Ki-61 was 1943). An early-war Japanese (or ANY Russian, for that matter) multi-engine bomber (Ki-67 was a 1944 bird). An IJN fighter covering the mid-war period (A6M5 was a 1944 bird). A mid-war single-engine Japanese bomber (the B5N and D3A are definitively early-war). PLENTY of Japanese planes, if you want to just ignore the glaring holes. At least the Russian set you can legitimately sub in Lend-Lease aircraft. The Japanese don't have any valid substitutions to fill the gaps in the plane set.
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The F2A-2 didn't see combat at ALL. It was the F2A-3 and its export version.
Yep, you are right. Four F2A-3s shot down a Japanese flying boat off Midway on March 10th, I've read a bad source somewhere which said those would have been -2s. Proved to be impossible because by the time of that event VMF-211 had already gotten rid of the couple -2s it had.
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I am also going to stay on late and find my Finn friends and wingup.
I am eagerly awaiting the Brewsters arrival! Flying the latest and greatest is not my style.
Finns! You are going to have to teach me to fly this crate! Be patient! :D
Hajo
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But whos gonna teach us ! :D
It will be surely interesting time, when suddenly dozen Brewsters storm in to meet the normal LWMA set.
I think it will seem like someone pulled in to a drag race strip with a tricycle :D
However, i am impatiently waiting for my turn to beat that racer monster peddling my bike...and i wellcome WW&Hajo to join us :salute
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I'm looking forward to this addition - for the first time I might actually get to shoot down some of my finnish friends lol.......mind you, I'm going to wing up with them at the very first opportunity first. If you've never made a finnish AH meet, I guarantee you do not know what you are missing out on.
<S> Finns
Wurzel
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funny how the people who know how to fly and fight (ACM) have no problem with this fine aircraft being added.
Listen up to what WW and Guppy said kids. This thing if it can turn (which it will) will be able to beat most of the AH population. 4x 50 cals from 200 or less will need minimum ammo to kill a fighter see P51B or F4F.
So if you can shoot and turn your onto a winner. I'm all for more minority planes and not well known US rides. Think early French stuff, maybe another italian ride. There are plenty of Russian and Japanese planes to do aswell. I'm guessing the only reason HTC hasn't modelled this lot already is not having 100% bulletproof (excuse the pun) plane schematics and performance data.
Would you rather have a game that is HTC's best attempt at perfection? or a game filled with loads of different planes that all perform very similiar and based on guesswork (BORING). The amount of hours it must take to get these cartoon planes flying anywhere near what they did in reality i'm sure is a pain staking process.
If I hear anymore "hangar queen" or "but but what about the X,Y,Z plane it will be l33t" I will take your name and hunt you down with this little brewster and make your day. ;)
I think the hardest part of flying the Brewster will not be getting kills (assuming they dont run away) it will be making it home.. as with any plane in AH that has a low top speed, its really easy to get anchored and overwhelmed even buy just 2 planes if your very near an enemy base and mix it up.
You run into 2 guys.. kill the first.. start on the second, as you are getting him nailed down the first has already jumped into another LW speed demon and is reentering the fight.. so you kill #2 but #1 is back so your start fighting him.,,, here comes #2 again.. this over and over till you either run out of fuel, ammo or someone finally pics ya..
that said, one of my most memorable flight came from exactly that sort of situation in a P40E.. I went "trolling" over a field and a guy upped.. by the time I killed him another had joined.. then the first guy was back.. and so on. after every kill i would get 30 sec or so to run towards a friendly base before having to turn to fight again.. wound of with 5 kills, no ammo and about 30 sec of fuel when I finally made it home.
If i can get just one experience out of the Buffalo that is similar to that, Ill be pleased with it.
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no disrespect but only a small number use the early & mid war arenas & the buffalo would be a flying coffin in the late war arena. i think it's a waste
None taken, but name useful planes that would actually contribute to the late war any? There are none. There are many you can want, there are none that will change the Main Arenas from being a hamster wheel. None. The A26? Have tons of bombers, won't change anything really. When people can fly at low level in Lancasters in formation, the A26 adds something? nope. Just new eye candy, not adding anything.
P47M?
Perked ride like A26 for blazing fast attacks?
That's not unique to the Late War Arenas, that's all that is there. So more of sameness in different package is what is needed?
Nope. The Late war is a one trick pony with nothing really riding on it but the hopes of guys in fast planes hoping to get a leg up on faster planes.
You might say "but in the early war arenas and setups, it's the same just slower planes."
Nope. There's also romance, for the early war has the fact that the issue was still in doubt and scenarios are definitely a see saw where plane characteristics have far more going for them than does the late war gang bangathons. The value of 80 spits and tiffies and Nikis vs the same on another side? The thirll of a kill untill you're outnumbered and wasted.
For every decent late war decent and intriguing fight I have had in Aces High I have had 20 in the scenarios and early war arenas. No ten kills have ever been as thrilling or well earned in the MA as in AvA. Where else can you wing with anotehr P-40B and see several Val's and Kate's attacking a base with Zero escorts? Wher else can you escort a B-17 formation onto specific targets in France and Germany in a Jug or P51 and face the precsie planes the pilots of WWII did and not a pack of Tiffies and Hurricane IIDs?
Late war is a video game, scenarios and early war A v A is WWII fighter Sim.
The gap between those two is wide my friend. Everyone strapping on a Brewster in the AvA arena is taking the dreams they had as a young man of WWII aerial combat and flowing through them in real time. That plane and they are one in spirit and triumph or failure maifests itself deeply in their subconscience.
The reality of the late war defines us? No, not as much as our dreams do. Get twenty brotehrs and go to to an AVA setup. Watch the folks balance out the arena to make the fights a match and meaningful. Tell me it's less fun than saying "come one, 20 Tiffy raid again, let's do 40 tonight!!!!"
Man vs Hamster my friend, I pack my heart with my 'chute, so that's where I fly. Let me know how the wheel treats you.
Sakai
aka Mean Bob Mean
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None taken, but name useful planes that would actually contribute to the late war any? There are none.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264722.msg3306609.html#msg3306609Nope. The Late war is a one trick pony with nothing really riding on it but the hopes of guys in fast planes hoping to get a leg up on faster planes.
Right, it couldn't be that they simply like planes that don't wheeze around at 2mph.Late war is a video game, scenarios and early war A v A is WWII fighter Sim.
Bogus. You're the same as the late war dweebs who do fly La7s and P51Ds just to let the plane do the fighting for them. Just their doppelganger.
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So, "what if" planes make the hamster wheel less hamster like?
Right, and thanks for making my argument for me friend.
And yes, it's all about the plane when you're in a P-40B, everyone knows that. Heh. Or the Wildcat when facing Zekes!
Heh. You're a funny guy.
Thanks for the retort, I understand your love for the MA, Billy the Circus boy in his shiny new everything is quite attractive, but the idea that it's a WWII flight sim as opposed to the AvA is uncomfortably ignorant.
You're about 10x more likely to see one on one action in AvA. I mean, what says it's just the plane dog my work for me more than that?
Thanks for trying, care to try again?
;-)
Sakai
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funny how the people who know how to fly and fight (ACM) have no problem with this fine aircraft being added.
If I hear anymore "hangar queen" or "but but what about the X,Y,Z plane it will be l33t" I will take your name and hunt you down with this little brewster and make your day. ;)
:rofl
Go get em!
TY HTC, and wtg on adding the Brewster.
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So, "what if" planes make the hamster wheel less hamster like?
;-)
Sakai
Who said what if? That's the title of that thread, but the planes in the post linked aren't. Unless you think the Me410, Beaufighter, Yak-3, Tu-2, Ki-44, are "what if" planes. Those planes answer your question as quoted in my post. I guess I have to spell that out. There's another thread where at least one of the better informed players lists other models that would be both competitive in the LWMA, and useful for historical purposes, but I'm not gonna dig it up.
I understand your love for the MA, Billy the Circus boy in his shiny new everything is quite attractive, but the idea that it's a WWII flight sim as opposed to the AvA is uncomfortably ignorant.
You just love the strawman don't ya. Love for the MA and Billy in his shiny new everything? You "understand" your fabricated strawmanized interpretation of my perspective, you mean. Everything in the plane set is 60+ years old. My retort was to your assertion that the only attraction to the LWMA is beating on early flying coffins in perk planes. All about the plane when you're in a P40B? What then is it about when you're in a 190A5 fighting the knife fight with spits and P38s? Ta152 vs Spit9s and P40 stall fight?
Your pretention that any one arena or plane is more honorable than the rest is poop.
As for the AvA. I don't fly there so I can't say for myself, but none of the feedback I've heard from trustworthy players is that it's about as crappy as the MA. Sounds just like the old CT where a couple of squads totally skewed the odds and bragged about it. I personally don't care either way. I fly pretty much one plane and I doubt it's in there most of the time. They can do whatever they want in there... I'll try it out when it's clear that there really is consistently good fights.
I would expect to be called on it if I started pontificating about the MA being so much better than AvA. Which I don't. Apples and oranges.
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You just love the strawman don't ya.
Yes, I've posted longer, more comprehensive lists myself--more than once. I guess that means I win? Thanks. POint remains, early mid war has more gaps than the late war, the AvA arena has more needs than does the rodent entertainment society.
Strawman? Oh my. Since your point is moot, like your name, and your argument is inane, senseless, and clealry anger based, what would you like me to respond to, exactly?
Did you want a tissue now? Did you somehow prove something with that paltry list of planes someone else published?
It's not pontificating when it's a fact. It's cool if someone loves the MA, I will fly there (see the Stuka? It's me), but saying one is somehow a pure experience because the planes are newer, which is the implication, is not terribly thoughtful. The Brewster might be a hangar queen in the MA--over half the AC are. I've gone for days seeing only 4 fighter types and 2 bombers make up more than 95% of the rides [until people learned how to fly the P-38].
So what's your point?
The Finns deserve their ride, the AvA can use it, and yes, early war is more meaningful for me for the reasons enunciated.
Why do you care? If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.
But again, your point would be what exactly?
Mine is a simple point, nothing to get your panties in a wad over. It's more about getting people to be thoughtful and try the AvA arena. "There's only 20 people there . . ." Yep, and so it's probably 10 to 10, well matched, one on one fights, actually relevant to WWII, or interesting action of some kind, and no hamster wheel.
So by all means, enjoy the gang and bang away in a 10 v 1 excitment spree the whole family will love, but you're fostering the ignorance that the AvA is somehow less interesting because it is not always "Spit Vs. Tiffy with vulchfest at field 19" wow, never seen that one before!!!!!
Sakai
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:lol
So by all means, enjoy the gang and bang away in a 10 v 1 excitment spree the whole family will love
[etc]
Not even worth it.
<S>
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So by all means, enjoy the gang and bang away in a 10 v 1 excitment spree the whole family will love.
Sakai
:lol That is what 4Chan said.
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the FM2 is lethal, should you choose to fight it.. there in lies the rub, if things get dicey.. it can be ran from by just about anything. I flew the FM2 quit a bit for a tour and thats what annoyed me to the point of dropping it from my "line up" you can put alot of work into a fight only to have your opponent simply... leave.
You know how to fix that.... give them your 6. They always come back... always.
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You know how to fix that.... give them your 6. They always come back... always.
:aok
like clockwork.. they turn around make a 400+ mph pick pass and run some more... then come back... and again and again..
basically its all about who has the most fuel :rofl
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The weight you are using here is a bit too high for the Model 239 and a bit too low for the F2A-2. With full tanks and 4*50 cals Model 239 weights around 5672lbs. Also it seems that you've used the 950hp power setting for the Model 239, not WEP (1000hp). The weight you've used for the F2A is with 2 guns only and with only 660lbs of fuel. The weight with 4 guns and with full tanks is 6500lbs flat.
So more comparable power to weight ratios are the following:
Model 239: 0,176 hp/lb
F2A-2: 0,185 hp/lb
So the difference in power loading is actually considerably smaller. And as others have mentioned F2A-2 barely saw combat.
This is entirely possible, since I took the values right off of the relevant Wikipedia page. Sadly, that's about the most accurate reference I have at hand without spending six hours on Google. As for the B-239s WEP setting, I wasn't aware it had WEP, though the difference between water or water-methnohol injection systems and simple "redlining" of the engine past it's max safe power settings is often vague. 50 HP power increase is rather less then I'd expect from a true water-injection system, so 1,000HP being the WEP setting for the B-239 sounds entirely reasonable (as 50HP is about the power increase one would expect from redlining the engine.) What does your data show the military power settings of the F2A-2 to be? Is 1,200 HP the value with WEP? Now I'm curious as to how much of the added power of the F2A-2 was innate and how much was from WEP.
The F2A-2 didn't see combat at ALL. It was the F2A-3 and its export version.
I kind of wonder what they did with all their F2A-2s... did they just bolt extra equipment onto them to make them -3s?
And as others have mentioned F2A-2 barely saw combat.
Sometimes I wonder just how important historical accuracy is in a game where you attack Lancasters with Spitfires, etc. Still, it's a valid point, since one has to draw the line somewhere. It's the same reason we have the P-51D and not the decidedly more uber P-51K. I don't think the F2A-2 would break anything, but still.
But honestly, if the performance specs are that close, it's no big deal anyway. And without the life raft, tail hook, and other accouterments, it's likely that the B-239 is a "leaner" ship overall- less power, but better weight balance across the airframe. Though that's pure speculation on my part.
Double too bad, because it was NOT the F2A-2 that saw combat. The American Buffaloes at Midway was the much heavier and underpowered F2A-3, (~1200hp and 6700lbs loaded) and the export model used by the RAF and Dutch was the same aircraft.
No, the export model used by the RAF was quite different. It was custom modified, and it was based on the F2A-2, not the -3.
The B-339E, or Brewster Mk I as it was designated in British service, was initially intended to be fitted with an export-approved Wright R-1820-G-105 Cyclone engine with a 1,000 hp/746 kW (peak takeoff)[12] engine. The Brewster aircraft delivered to British and Commonwealth air forces were significantly altered from the B-339 type sold to the Belgium and French forces in accordance with their purchase order. The Brewster factory removed the Navy life raft container and arrestor hook, while adding many new items of equipment,[13] including a British Mk III reflector gun sight, a gun camera, a larger fixed pneumatic-tire tail wheel, fire extinguisher, engine shutters, a larger battery, and reinforced armor plating and armored glass behind the canopy windshield.[14]
The Brewster Model B-339E, as modified and supplied to Great Britain was distinctly inferior in performance to the F2A-2 (Model B-339) from the original order. It had a less powerful (1,000 hp/746 kW) engine compared to the F2A-2's 1,200 hp (895 kW) Cyclone, yet was substantially heavier due to all of the additional modifications (some 900 lb/408 kg).
As you can see, the Brewster Mk I was a special, custom-made bit of retardation on the part of the RAF. All the accounts of how the RAF Brewster squadrons got spanked have always amused me tremendously, because it was a disaster entirely of their own making (as was the poor performance of the F2A-3 in the hands of the US Navy at Midway, for that matter.)
I don't mind being told that the F2A-2 shouldn't be in the game because of historical reasons (at least half the reason for the plane is scenario use, after all,) but you could take a few seconds to read the Wikipedia article before you get snippy.
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I wasn't aware it had WEP, though the difference between water or water-methnohol injection systems and simple "redlining" of the engine past it's max safe power settings is often vague.
WEP does not mean water injection. Most WWII fighters did not have ADI of any kind. WEP simply means wartime emergency power and is usually just an increase in manifold pressure.
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Basing your arguments on a Wiki article isn't going to win you a lot of points. Quick reference? Yes, but you better find other sources to back you up.
All the Brewsters at Midway--the only ones to see actual combat action in American service unless you count a single strafing run on a Japanese submarine--were F2A-3s. The F2A-2s would have been either rotated stateside and reassigned to training duties, or as you put it, "bolted on" the stuff the Navy added to the F2A-3 to "upgrade" them.
The Brewster Model B-339E, as modified and supplied to Great Britain was distinctly inferior in performance to the F2A-2 (Model B-339) from the original order. It had a less powerful (1,000 hp/746 kW) engine compared to the F2A-2's 1,200 hp (895 kW) Cyclone, yet was substantially heavier due to all of the additional modifications (some 900 lb/408 kg).
And you're in such a hurry to lobby for the "superior" F2A-2 it sounds like you're completely disregarding these couple lines. Less power + greater weight, resulting in significantly reduced performance. Essentially the exact same thing that happened with the F2A-3, without the benefit of the more powerful engine (arguably, the B-339E would perform even WORSE than the -3 since it saw almost the same weight gain at the same time as reducing the engine power).
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These are lies, and they make me sadface.
I hope this thread serves as a lesson for you, so you don't go around calling people liars in the future without actually knowing what you're talking about.
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whats the brewsters arnament?
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whats the brewsters arnament?
Four .50 cals, same as the P-51B and FM2.
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Sometimes I wonder just how important historical accuracy is in a game where you attack Lancasters with Spitfires, etc. Still, it's a valid point, since one has to draw the line somewhere. It's the same reason we have the P-51D and not the decidedly more uber P-51K. I don't think the F2A-2 would break anything, but still.
How exactly is a P-51D built in Dallas, (P-51K), uber? Is it the Aeroproducts propeller that no one really liked? Because otherwise, they are identical.
Must be some sort of Texas ingenuity.
wrongway
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How exactly is a P-51D built in Dallas, (P-51K), uber? Is it the Aeroproducts propeller that no one really liked? Because otherwise, they are identical.
Must be some sort of Texas ingenuity.
My guess is that he meant the H.
- oldman
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What Aremerment did it have?
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Don't you mean Ordinance?
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whats the brewsters arnament?
What Aremerment did it have?
Yeah! What arniemamarmot did it have?
;) :D
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Yeah! What arniemamarmot did it have?
;) :D
(http://www.massobserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/brewster-body-armor-1917-18.jpg)
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(http://www.massobserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/brewster-body-armor-1917-18.jpg)
:lol
(http://coralmorphologic.com/b/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/pic07tin-man.jpg)
Wmaker trying his Brewster on for size.
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Did it turn well in the Finnish variant? If it's indeed to be a Zeke killer, it must have.
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Did it turn well in the Finnish variant? If it's indeed to be a Zeke killer, it must have.
if it was a zeke killer then whys it have German markings? i know nothing of the Brewster.
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if it was a zeke killer then whys it have German markings? i know nothing of the Brewster.
Obviously.
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if it was a zeke killer then whys it have German markings? i know nothing of the Brewster.
Or German markings... Those are Finnish.
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Fin's used Swastika as well?
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why did they choose to implement that particular plane? surely there were mere planes that would have been more useful ?
such as an A-26 or He-111...
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Because Aces High is not only made up of the Late War Arenas. There are a TON of glaring holes that need filling in Early and Mid, not to mention Scenarios, AvA, and FSO.
yet we don't have an American sherman,lol
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Fin's used Swastika as well?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
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danke herr Moot
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Fin's used Swastika as well?
Finnish
In Finland the swastika was often used in traditional folk art products, as a decoration or magical symbol on textiles and wood. Certain types of symbols which incorporated the swastika were used to decorate wood; such symbols are called tursaansydän and mursunsydän in Finnish. Tursaansydän was often used until 18th century, when it was mostly replaced by a simple swastika.
:lol
Actually, in fairness, the swastika was used as a symbol in Finland following their 1918 civil war where they defeated the communists. I forget what for. Either a good luck symbol or something like that. Their use of the swastika predates the Nazi use by decades, even in the modern era.
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The Finnish symbol is the von Rosen cross if I recall right, and is the other way around (?) as well as blue. I think it originates from before the Nazis.
BTW, the biggest company in my town is the SS. They had that name in 1930....
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In 1965, did people vehemently object when Chevrolet introduced the Super Sport option?
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/06/18/automobiles/18chevylogo190..jpg)
In closing, I quote Mark Twain:
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
wrongway
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The Finnish symbol is the von Rosen cross if I recall right, and is the other way around (?) as well as blue. I think it originates from before the Nazis.
BTW, the biggest company in my town is the SS. They had that name in 1930....
Yes, it can be dated around 1918. Long before.
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The Finnish symbol is the von Rosen cross if I recall right, and is the other way around (?) as well as blue. I think it originates from before the Nazis.
BTW, the biggest company in my town is the SS. They had that name in 1930....
This US National Guard unit patch also predates the Nazis.
(http://www.swastika-info.com/images/application/military/Swastika-to-Thunderbird.jpg)
US postcard from the 1930s
(http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_10_2007/post-467-1191252658.jpg)
ack-ack
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A Hockey Team from Edmonton ;)
(http://www.birthplaceofhockey.com/images/pichockeyists/women/edmonton-swastikas-3.jpg)
*Edmonton Swastikas Hockey Team 1916
Note that the goalie has a pre-1915 stick which is
wide on one side only - a classic example of it.
------------------------------------------------
(http://reclaimtheswastika.com/images/coke.jpg)
'Lucky charm' swastika fob by Coca-Cola. 1920's USA.
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One of the Baltic countries used it on their war planes between wars too, "before Nazi use", I forget which.
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Latvian Airforce had red swastikas.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roundel_of_the_Latvian_Air_Fo rce_until_1940_border.svg (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roundel_of_the_Latvian_Air_Force_until_1940_border.svg)
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This US National Guard unit patch also predates the Nazis.
(http://www.swastika-info.com/images/application/military/Swastika-to-Thunderbird.jpg)
US postcard from the 1930s
(http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_10_2007/post-467-1191252658.jpg)
ack-ack
(http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/ruinkai/coolgleamA.gif)
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good pictures :aok
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wasn't this thread supposed to be about the BREWSTER,NOT a particular shape meaning many different things to many different people,one of them happening to represent Nazi-ism?
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That particular shape happens to be painted on that particular Brewster's wings and fuselage and that one doesn't represent nazism. Thus it may be quite relevant to show that nazism was (has been) related to swastika only for a fairly short time. Hopefully their stains will soon wear off from the other swastikas.
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we can only hope so
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Of additional note any Continuation War event will be helped by the fact we have 109G2s and G6s in the game. These were important aircraft for the FAF during '43 to '45, "and probably beyond". Bringing in the LAGG-3 would kill two birds with one stone because the FAF operated a small number of captured ones, "I forget how many and hate google", and it was a very common adversary for the B-239s. The later models of LAGG-3s were probably worthwhile and "game quality". The FAF also flew a small number of Hurris, both 1s and 2s.
Its going to be interesting to see exactly what Brewster we get, and how "exactly" they are outfitted.
To be totally, historically accurate they have to be the 239s. The A-1's with the Wright R-1820s, "refurbished DC-3" engines, that were re-assembled in Sweden with the CV gear stripped, the armor stripped, and sights supplied by the Finns. I suspect the 4'th 0.50 would be included, and pilot armor, since all of the Buffs got this upgrade, "as far as I know".
As far as performance, rate of climb, fire power, bomb load, were talking an airplane in the FM-2 range. The 239s were lighter and climbed better, maybe turning a bit better the the later A-3s the USN and Brits later got.
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LaGG-3 would be great :aok Also a downgraded La-5 (from current La-5FN) would be an easy new plane added.
FAF had only a couple of captured LaGG-3:s, but they would be wonderful targets on VVS side :)
FAF had only one Hurri II, which was put together from 2 separate captured Hurricanes. It was only used for test flights. The ones bought (12 of them, of which only 11 or 10 arrived) were Hurri I:s
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(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/Comparison.jpg)
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Yeah, the 239s were much lighter then the A-3s, and for sure the FM-2s. That should translate into good climbs and nimble handling, while retaining the good ole Yank dive abilities.
I just spent a few sorties in the FM-2, which is a usefull aircraft and not, IMOHO, a Queen. The Buff deserves a chance to prove itself. If it comes in at about the Zeros weight it could be a interesting new addition. Im not going to say I wished for it but it could be a very interesting addition.
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the FM2 is lethal, should you choose to fight it.. there in lies the rub, if things get dicey.. it can be ran from by just about anything. I flew the FM2 quit a bit for a tour and thats what annoyed me to the point of dropping it from my "line up" you can put alot of work into a fight only to have your opponent simply... leave.
The FM2 can disguise it E state very well and just when they think they are safe ... boom ... they are back in the tower. Also, if my opponent doesn't have a ton of speed, I have yet to see anyone out run the 4 .50 cals on the FM2.
YMMV.
I am looking forward to flying the "Buffalo".
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Told you it would be a Zeke-killer ;)