Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Cajunn on June 09, 2009, 11:02:03 PM
-
I was watching a program on TV and it stated the the P-51 was built by America but the design was British, and it was built to British Specs. Is this true are was it a mistake by the T.V. program?
-
It was designed by a German... :noid
-
I was watching a program on TV and it stated the the P-51 was built by America but the design was British, and it was built to British Specs. Is this true are was it a mistake by the T.V. program?
The 51 was designed in America, by an American engineer (though born in Germany), for the Brits.
-
North American was asked to produce P40s under license by the RAF. They said they could come up with a better bird. The Allison 51 followed.
Matching the British built Rolls Royce Merlin to the Mustang made it a better all around fighter. So it was an American design to start for the RAF that evolved into the Merlin Mustang.
-
That is what I always thought, but this TV program was saying something different so I figured I would ask because I thought it was wrong.
-
That is what I always thought, but this TV program was saying something different so I figured I would ask because I thought it was wrong.
It didn't truly shine until it was matched with a brtisih merlin engine so in that regard it was both Brit and American.
-
Built for RAF specs AFAIK, but high alt performance wasn't good enough, so it had a British powerplant installed.
American machine, drawn by a german, made to suit the RAF's request, powered by a licence built Rolls-Royce engine ;)
-
Built for RAF specs AFAIK, but high alt performance wasn't good enough, so it had a British powerplant installed.
American machine, drawn by a german, made to suit the RAF's request, powered by a licence built Rolls-Royce engine ;)
And flown by almost any allied country :D
Now that's one multi-cultural aircraft!
-
(http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/germany/german4.jpg)
(http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/germany/german1.jpg)
(http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/germany/german3.jpg)
(http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/germany/german2.jpg)
-
(http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/germany/german4.jpg)
(http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/germany/german1.jpg)
(http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/germany/german3.jpg)
(http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/germany/german2.jpg)
I stand corrected, even the Axis flew them! :huh
Nice find there :aok
-
Seems the P51 was a bit of slut and used by everyone!
-
It was designed by a German... :noid
Kurt Tank. :noid
-
Seems the P51 was a bit of slut and used by everyone!
The village bicycle everyone got a ride on :D
-
Germans used them :confused: they must have stole them or something
-
p51 designer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Schmued
-
Germans used them :confused: they must have stole them or something
LOL... I just imagined German Thief-Pilots sneaking around USAAF airbases :devil
-
The Brits and Americans stole all kinds of German planes. ;) ;)
-
waitting for the b model with the 4 20's the british flew
-
waitting for the b model with the 4 20's the british flew
There was no P51B with 20mm cannons.
-
waitting for the b model with the 4 20's the british flew
[/quot
20mm was A36 Apache. Id like the P51B (Mustang III) the Brits
used to chase V1s. would do 450 @ 5k :)
-
It was designed by a German... :noid
.
-
There was no P51B with 20mm cannons.
British Mustang Mk1A about 200 had 4 20mm. Used in army cooperation work and for reconnaissance. Basicly P51A or A36 apache that the british replaced the MG's with 4 cannon. It was still allison powered but fast and potent below 15K.
How would you like to see the summer sqweekers roaring through furballs HOing everything with these...... :x
-
British Mustang Mk1A about 200 had 4 20mm. Used in army cooperation work and for reconnaissance. Basicly P51A or A36 apache that the british replaced the MG's with 4 cannon. It was still allison powered but fast and potent below 15K.
How would you like to see the summer sqweekers roaring through furballs HOing everything with these...... :x
bustr, the Mustang I was the American P-51 (no sub letter). The Mustang Ia replaced the mgs of the I with cannons. The A-36 was based on the P-51(no sub letter).
-
How would you like to see the whining vets roaring through furballs HOing everything with these...... :x
fixed for ya.
-
Germans used them :confused: they must have stole them or something
They were borrowed, the Germans were gonna return them, but stuff came up...
-
Actually the P51 prototype flew more than a year before Germany declared war on the USA ;)
-
An eyewitness account of "Der Deutsch-Stang..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yNBGGRJ8Tk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yNBGGRJ8Tk)
:aok
-
Actually the P51 prototype flew more than a year before Germany declared war on the USA ;)
Germany didn't declare war... they just went and bombed Pearl Harbor :furious :mad:
-
Japan attacked Pearl Harbour and subsequently Germany AND Italy declared war on the USA.
-
I was joking ;)
-
Germany didn't declare war... they just went and bombed Pearl Harbor :furious :mad:
with helicopters!
-
Japan attacked Pearl Harbour and subsequently Germany AND Italy declared war on the USA.
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6351/hookedc.jpg)
wrongway
-
I was joking ;)
Thought you were, but I couldn't resist. You wouldn't belive how many of our American friends actually belive the USA went to war against the Gerries to save France :devil
The thought of Italy declaring war on the USA always makes me giggle a bit, - with that huge Italian population in the USA for starters and then...how was Italy going to do anything???
Then there is a little question. Since Germany and Italy declared war due to the Axis pact, why didn't Japan declare war on England before Pearl. :huh
-
I was joking ;)
So Pearl Harbour was never bombed? :O
-
yes, silly, by the English. They were sore about Yorktown, and thought she might still be there.
-
mipoikel,
Do you have larger pictures of the ones you previously posted? I'd love to add those to my collection!
-
Then there is a little question. Since Germany and Italy declared war due to the Axis pact, why didn't Japan declare war on England before Pearl. :huh
Because they were not obliged to. And Germany wasn't obliged to declare war on the United states after Pearl.
From the Tripartite Pact from 1940:
"ARTICLE 3. Japan, Germany, and Italy agree to cooperate in their efforts on aforesaid lines. They further undertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means if one of the Contracting Powers is attacked by a Power at present not involved in the European War or in the Japanese-Chinese conflict."
Japan wasn't attacked by US forces.
And Germany was already at war with the United Kingdom when the pact was signed.
-
Actually Germany was pretty pissed at Japan for attacking pearl, they didn't want the US more involved in the war in Europe then they already were for the same reason Japan was hoping that the attack would cause the U.S. fold and not want to fight. Industry wise the U.S had no match except for Russia at that time, and eventually that was weighing factor of the out come of WW2.
Being that ya'll goin to Hijack my thread I guess I'll have some input.
-
Industry wise the U.S had no match except for Russia at that time, and eventually that was weighing factor of the out come of WW2.
The USSR had barely a fraction of the US industrial capacity in late 1941. The reality was that without Lend Lease the Soviets would have folded like a cheap umbrella in 1943. The Russians were unable to produce even half of the war materials and logistical needs required to sustain their war effort. Britain provided a very small percentage, but the vast bulk of the difference came from the United States. Quite literally, the U.S. fed the Soviet military. It provided most of their truck transport and railroad stock. More than half of their gasoline, both motor and aviation, came from America, and this barely scratches the surface of what was given to the USSR. Here's some specific examples...
80% of all canned meat.
92% of all railroad locomotives, rolling stock and rails.
57% of all aviation fuel.
53% of all explosives.
74% of all truck transport.
88% of all radio equipment.
53% of all copper.
56% of all aluminum.
60+% of all automotive fuel.
74% of all vehicle tires.
12% of all armored vehicles.
14% of all combat aircraft.
The list includes a high percentage of the high grade steel, communications
cable, canned foods of all types, medical supplies, and virtually every modern
machine tool used by Soviet industry. Not to mention the "know-how" required to
use and maintain this equipment.
A by-product of Lend Lease was the fact that the U.S. contribution of the bulk of Russian machine tooling, technology and captured German technology was the basis for the Soviet's post-war industrial (read that as weapons) build up. This, possibly more than any other non-political factor, was huge contributor to the resulting "Cold War". Richard Overy has written extensively on the Soviets and Lend Lease. It's worthwhile to read some of his research. Suffice it to know that both Zhukov and Simonov freely admitted that collapse of the Soviet army was probable without Lend Lease.
My regards,
Widewing
-
There was no P51B with 20mm cannons.
The XP-51Bs were armed with four 20mm cannon....
This was due to being converted from P-51/Mustang Mk. IA airframes, which were cannon armed.
My regards,
Widewing
-
List of L-L to the Soviets, http://www.geocities.com/mark_willey/lend.html
tonnaged shipped to the Soviets
Year Totals
Persian Gulf - Pacific - Atlantic - Black Sea - Arctic > total
1941-- 360,778 - 13,502 - 193,299 - 153,977 > 721,556 > ~2.4%
1942--2,453,097 - 705,259 - 734,020 - 949,711 - 64,107 > 4,906,194 > ~16.1%
1943--4,794,545 - 1,606,979 - 2,388,577 - 681,043 - 117,946 > 9,589,090 > ~31.5%
1944--6,217,622 - 1,788,864 - 2,848,181 - 1,452,775 - 127,802 > 12,435,245 > ~40.8%
1945--3,673,819 - 44,513 - 2,079,320 - 726,725 - 680,723 > 2,804,556 > ~9.2%
Not according to this Ww.
Trucks in Russian service. The impact of lend lease on the red motor park.
http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmaarticlelendlease.htm
-
The XP-51Bs were armed with four 20mm cannon....
This was due to being converted from P-51/Mustang Mk. IA airframes, which were cannon armed.
My regards,
Widewing
The first XP-51B was flown by Bob Chilton on November 30, 1942. It was initially flown without armament.
-
The first XP-51B was flown by Bob Chilton on November 30, 1942. It was initially flown without armament.
I have photos of both XP-51Bs, both are armed.
My regards,
Widewing
-
ATTENTION PEOPLE OF AH BBS:
Do NOT argue with Widewing, as you will lose 99.99% of the time.
-
Not according to this Ww.
Trucks in Russian service. The impact of lend lease on the red motor park.
http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmaarticlelendlease.htm
Those Soviet figures are wildly inflated. According to Soviet manufacturing tables cited by Dunn, Soviet truck production averaged less than 7,000 per month. Richard Overy agrees. Most were unsuitable for the military lacking off-road utility. Many Soviet designs were heartily disliked by the military and the Soviet's largest factory ceased production of Russian trucks in 1944. Instead, they began the assembly of American trucks.
Soviet records indicate that 158,500 trucks were "received by the armed forces in 1943" We also know that 104,335 American made 2.5 ton trucks were delivered to the Soviets in 1943. That leaves a balance of 54,000 trucks, most of which were 1.5 and one ton 2 wheel drive types. The one ton types were unsuited for towing most artillery and were used for general utility duty. They were restricted to frozen ground or prepared roads due to rear drive only, with an open differential.
If you examine various Soviet army units and their truck allocations, the vast majority of the transport were American made, with a much smaller percentage being Soviet manufactured.
My regards,
Widewing
-
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/XP-51B_1.jpg)
This photo shows the XP-51B - it is a P-51, serial 41-37352, from the NA-91 production block, that saw the Allison engine removed and received a trial-installation of a Packard V-1650 Merlin engine. The shape of the cowlings and the exhaust configuration are different from the production models, compared to photos below (via Mark Nankivil).
http://www.swissmustangs.ch/index2.html
The other XP-51B was serial number 41-37421 (Brit number FD519). The pix is of FD450. Factory serial numbers were 91-12013 and 91-12082.
-
Strange that the Soviets didn't like their own production as the USA and Britain set up factories in the USSR to build American and British designed trucks.
-
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/XP-51B_1.jpg)
This photo shows the XP-51B - it is a P-51, serial 41-37352, from the NA-91 production block, that saw the Allison engine removed and received a trial-installation of a Packard V-1650 Merlin engine. The shape of the cowlings and the exhaust configuration are different from the production models, compared to photos below (via Mark Nankivil).
http://www.swissmustangs.ch/index2.html
The other XP-51B was serial number 41-37421 (Brit number FD519). The pix is of FD450. Factory serial numbers were 91-12013 and 91-12082.
41-37352 had its guns removed during NACA wind tunnel testing. NACA recommended said removal as the 20mm installation added considerable drag.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/XP-51B-NACA.jpg)
The photo you have posted shows the Mustang after NACA was finished, but well after initial flight testing. Originally, both 41-37352 and 41-37421 retained the cannons.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/137352-Mustang.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
-
ATTENTION PEOPLE OF AH BBS:
Do NOT argue with Widewing, as you will lose 99.99% of the time.
:aok :lol
-
Actually Germany was pretty pissed at Japan for attacking pearl, they didn't want the US more involved in the war in Europe then they already were for the same reason Japan was hoping that the attack would cause the U.S. fold and not want to fight. Industry wise the U.S had no match except for Russia at that time, and eventually that was weighing factor of the out come of WW2.
Being that ya'll goin to Hijack my thread I guess I'll have some input.
Without the Archangel (Arkhangelsk) and Arctic Convoys (Murmansk), the USSR would have been done like dinner, by 1944 at the latest.
-
You'll find some that will completely disagree. However Boroda has been banned for quite a while now :D
-
You'll find some that will completely disagree. However Boroda has been banned for quite a while now :D
:rofl
-
You'll find some that will completely disagree. However Boroda has been banned for quite a while now :D
Sadly, that is our great loss.
-
Thanks for the pix Ww. :aok