Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: mechanic on June 11, 2009, 05:14:55 AM
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http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/real_3on1.ahf <---- .AHF Film here
Here is a quick clip of a real 3 on 1 fight. Many times we hear people boast of winning multi-vs-one but not often see evidence. A real 3 on 1 fight is not just three cons in the area, but actualy all 3 are on the 1 at the same time in close proxy. In my experience of this game even three 'two weeker zipcodes' vs one person is very difficult to win.
Here are some things to think about if you think winning a 3 on 1 is too difficult:
- Keep the Advantage: Starting with the advantage of great guns and a few thousand feet is all you need to stand a fair chance. This just shows how keeping an E advantage is not about being at a 10k advantage. Sometimes a few MPH more is all that is needed to stay on top.
- Evaluate Threats: You can see constant visual checks all around the aircraft. Mental evaluation is vital also, it becomes second nature to plot the path of the spit that just flew past you in your head while you watch the F4u-4 that is now climbing under your belly with enough smack to get a shot. Watching the spit and letting that F4u have a full profile shot would have ended the sortie.
- Don't even think about running away. the slightest doubt and you are already going down in flames.
- Don't target fixate unless you are certain you can get the kill first try.
- Offer a thing profile: If you are going to get shot, it makes sense to give them a small target. pointing a wingtip at them is a good way to avoid a snapshot.
- Don't miss if possible
This is where a handfull of people will start a discusion on what the three enemy did wrong. It's a valid point to some extent, in theory. In reality no body flies as well as they would do with hindsight watching the film. All three of the players in the clip are experienced and more than capable of killing me in a 1 on 1.
So I posted in general discussion to save the training forum the possible debate. Also I thought it was important to show as many people as possible that winning from E advantage can be a much closer game than 10 mile extensions and running away in the vertical.
All feedback welcome.
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As a general rule to multi v 1s I always try to work the enemy so they stay infront of me. It can be tough, especially if they break off, extend and re-engage (which alot of people seem to do, maybe they'd be embarassed to get killed wile ganging someone). By angling yourself so they stay in front; you make SA alot easier, and you can limit the amount of manuvers you need to perform. That in turn help you keep some precious energy.
nice flying bat!
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:salute Great flying Bat.
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Whenever I'm in multiple plane engagements, I always try to keep some E, so as not to be caught on a pass low and slow. Everytime they make a pass, I try to do the least manoevering to avoid being hit. Whenever he passes by, I immediately level my wings and climb to get more and more precious potential/kinetic energy. When my E state comes close to one of the cons I wait for the right time to cut back into him and hopefully get a quick burst in beofre having to avoid a different con. Just my tactics in multi-con engagements.
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Joey, we should do some more 1v1, hopefully before 01:00AM my time, next time. :aok
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First of all, you made all the right decisions and applied them at the right place and time. What those were you described in detail and they are spot on.
No issues here at all. But there are some things:
In my experience of this game even three 'two weeker zipcodes' vs one person is very difficult to win.
Well, I disagree strongly. This situation is a piece of cake for an experienced player like you are, even more when using a top notch plane.
I think in many ways your clip is proof of the exact opposite of your statement.
This is where a handfull of people will start a discusion on what the three enemy did wrong. It's a valid point to some extent, in theory. In reality no body flies as well as they would do with hindsight watching the film.
For smaller errors I do agree, but in this stituation, it was not a matter of small errors. It was lack a fundamental lack of concept, to say at least.
All three of the players in the clip are experienced and more than capable of killing me in a 1 on 1.
Again, I disagree. After watching the clip and checking some stats, this conclusion is wrong, very wrong. Due to the respect of the players involved I will not say any more here, but if asked, I'll comment on that via PM in more detail.
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Would you say an exploitable mistake in multiple vs. one situations is that the "multiples" aren't flying the fight like it is just them vs. you 1v1?
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You definitely need to practice more, I mean y'all DID get "pinged at the onset.... s`matter old age gettin to ya :uhoh :D
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Would you say an exploitable mistake in multiple vs. one situations is that the "multiples" aren't flying the fight like it is just them vs. you 1v1?
All it takes is one of the three to disengage from the fight and wait for the pick, If this was the case then the video wouldn't last to long.
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Dentin :D
I think they all wanted to disengage from the fight and wait for the pick, Kaz. That is why they all got shot. That may be what BnZs is getting at also.
Boozeman, entitled to your opinion. It's quite a valid one, though I still stand by my first post.
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I don't think so Bat. If they wanted to, they could have.
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Nice flyin bat. Nice fight without a booming 10-15k advantage like most in the arena. Two of the pilot names you were flying against have been around awhile too. Hardly would classify them as new guys. :salute :aok
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IN a multiple engagement I usually Die! nice job :salute
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I have not seen the film yet.
but the major problem when a lone pilot is engaged against 2 or 3 + others is that the 2 or 3 others are all going for the kill, and this is their downfall. if they would work as a pair or a team then Bat would not have been as fortunate.........not taking anything away from Bat's abilities though......
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.........not taking anything away from Bat's abilities though......
We already know he stinks! :P
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As a general rule to multi v 1s I always try to work the enemy so they stay infront of me. It can be tough, especially if they break off, extend and re-engage (which alot of people seem to do, maybe they'd be embarassed to get killed wile ganging someone). By angling yourself so they stay in front; you make SA alot easier, and you can limit the amount of manuvers you need to perform. That in turn help you keep some precious energy.
I got some help from DamnedRen a few weeks or so back, and that was something that definitely made it through my thick head. He definitely teaches keeping someone in front of your "lift vector". It's not all that easy to do when you don't have a good feeling for flying, but definitely makes sense and definitely helps.
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I don't think so Bat. If they wanted to, they could have.
I think they did want to. They were not extending 5 miles to come back for a pick, but they were fighting loose, maybe to anticipate a 6 clear of their teamates. Rather than all trying to saddle up when they equalised my E advantage, which may well have left me no time to engage and shoot at them seperately.
Lazer is right i do stink :t
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Not to take away from your flying abilities Bat, but you should add to that list ...
4 hispanos
Had you been in an F6F with .50 cals, which flys very similarly to the F4U, it might have been a different story.
4 hispanos helps very much in dispatching opponents quickly in a multi v 1 so that one can get onto the next guy.
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I'm disappointed. I'd hoped for a good 3v1. I saw a vet in a perk ride almost lose his advantage to 3 inexperienced pilots. Sohot, if this is a 3v1, I can post films of me winning horde on ones... hehehe.
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- Don't miss if possible
Now you tell me :D, nice flying as always :salute
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I can post films of me winning horde on ones... hehehe.
I don’t fancy watching you boar the horde to death as they attempt to climb up to your 20K perch lol.
BatfinkV,
You used your marginal energy advantage very well to overcome a numerical disadvantage, you stud!
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I don’t fancy watching you boar the horde to death as they attempt to climb up to your 20K perch lol.
BatfinkV,
You used your marginal energy advantage very well to overcome a numerical disadvantage, you stud!
Except I rarely go past 8 or 10k though and have the films to prove it. Weak effort, try again.
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I didn't watch the film but this seems like a self-glorification post to me. No offense meant.
I mean we could all post films our best sorties.
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Looks like I just caught myself a Steve. :D
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Looks like I just caught myself a Steve. :D
Dang...... got me. Barbed?
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I didn't get the feeling that batfink 'blew his advantage' in this fight. It was more like... he was so confident that he was going to win the fight that he conceded it to give them a fighting chance.
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Gotta admit when I saw it was a 4 cannon Hog with alt at the start, it wasn't as much fun as if it had been a lesser ride starting below em. Those 4 cannons make a helluva difference :)
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- Keep the Advantage: Starting with the advantage of great guns and a few thousand feet is all you need to stand a fair chance.
Grizz understands me. So do a few others.
I didn't watch the film but this seems like a self-glorification post to me. No offense meant.
I mean we could all post films our best sorties.
Oh please do! Be my geust. Show me film of you turning and burning at 3,000 feet with 3 UBER rides and surviving then watch me congratulate you. Not cast my aspersions from distance without even watching the film.
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I hate facing off against multiple enemies, especially when it started out as 1v1 and then two more show up 3k higher and diving at me while I'm flaps down in a scissors with their buddy.
At this point in any multiple-baddie situations I try to stay aggressive and never take my thumb off my view hat. Depending on my ammo load I'll take every shot I get, be it a HO or a 5 second-long burst.
Since playing AH2 I've learned that taking the extra two-three minutes to climb out to even 10-15k can be the difference between being easy pickings to being a pain in the arse for the other guy.
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It's funny. If I post an amazing reversal or kill I get told I'm just showing off. Now this time i show a bog standard, run-of-the-mill fight that anyone could win if they follow the few pointers i mentioned...and I get suspected of self congratulation all the same.
Please accept that my motive is, always has been, sharing my knowledge with anyone who is interested to learn more about virtual air combat.
:salute
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Good effort :aok
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Great post Mechanic, my question is when confronted with a 3 on one , I tend to go after the toughest or fastest fighters first.Is that a factor with you when you're setting up a fight? Also, do you try to keep the close to one another or spread them out more? Sorry i didn't watch the film..short on time here. :) :salute
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I like my 3 on 1's to be like a chinese kung fu flick where the other two wait their turns :)
if you live or die depends on the quality of pilots in the gang .. all it takes is one that knows just alittle more than nothing and you will die 9 out of 10 times.
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It's funny. If I post an amazing reversal or kill I get told I'm just showing off. Now this time i show a bog standard, run-of-the-mill fight that anyone could win if they follow the few pointers i mentioned...and I get suspected of self congratulation all the same.
Actually, this fight looks abit more difficult than many of your overshoot/reversal kills...these guys aren't barreling in with a massive speed differential that all but guarantees they'll miss, and this time you aren't in the Mossie that all but guarantees you'll fillet them anywhere out to 800 yards once they get in front. :devil
Guys, at some level of training the primary difference between a good journeyman stick who gets a %@$#@ <S> after giving a gang like this a run for their money and a really talented stick who kills 'em all and lets God sort 'em is the gunnery. ACM is primarily learned, shooting has more of a natural talent element involved.
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Being able to drop enemy planes quickly in an unfair situation IS the biggest factor when trying to survive. You can only twist and turn for so long.. :D
I like letting my guns work for me too.
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"Starting with the advantage of great guns and a few thousand feet is all you need to stand a fair chance."
Sorry ... I missed that ... :uhoh
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my writing style is close to unreadable, who can blame you :D
I also said all feedback is welcome
S!
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Great post Mechanic, my question is when confronted with a 3 on one , I tend to go after the toughest or fastest fighters first.Is that a factor with you when you're setting up a fight? Also, do you try to keep the close to one another or spread them out more? Sorry i didn't watch the film..short on time here. :) :salute
Evaluate threats! If the threat is that you may want to disengage soon and run for home then shoot the fastest first. If the threat is the aircraft that is most deadly in a turning fight and you intend to turn fight yourself, shoot it first, as in this case (the spitfire).
First and foremost you should shoot the one closest to your gunsite so long as you are not neglecting the ones behind you for too long.
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So I took on board the feedback about the big guns (though i pointed that out initialy as one of the advantages to work with in that film).
Here are two short films flying the C202 in the MA. They certainly go to show that without the big guns you have to work a heck of alot harder not to get killed. Sometimes even your best efforts wont be enough.
c202 vs A6m.ahf (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/c202_vs_a6m.ahf)
c202 vs moss/hurri .ahf (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/c202_vs_mossy.ahf)
S! goes out to 1kilhown, mryellow and kazaa. Kazaa especially for not picking me off the mossy when he could have done. Bruv probably told him it was me in the 202 after he shot me down in one 10 minutes before whilst flying MY mosquito against me. :mad:
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also goes to show that 303's from 600-800, do very little damage even after taking a massive amount of pings. :D
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ah bruv i didnt catch our fights on film. The first one when I was BnZ you untill the p51 popped in and you pulled a reversal on me was the best. This mossy film was the next sortie after you had landed your kills with about 300 holes in you.
NB: neither of the c202 films here show any good sense for starting with or keeping advantage in any form. They are just to give credibility to the people who say the big guns do it all. Well its true, they do. So use em if you want to fight 3 on 1.
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That Starr fella in the a6m film really reminded me of my noobstick days... :lol
Thats actually how Mensa shoots, to this day.
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:lol
in a 190? I shoot worse
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here is some advice froma friend of mine that is very good. I thought I would repeat it here.
Your post got me to thinking, you probably know all this but here’s my input:
SA is King – all else is useless without.
ID the biggest threat by
o Altitude / Energy
o Plane type
o Best pilot > not always biggest threat
o Best pilot redefined > the biggest treat.
Reevaluate biggest threat!
Repeat the above over and over and over and ov…..
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Get enemy”s” in a single view
o When accomplished it’s “Almost” like a 1 on 1
o Evaluate biggest threat!
Diving away from close eny> to gain energy> to merge with incoming eny can prolong life.
Evaluate biggest threat!
Change targets . . .:
o …Whenever
o …Current target dives
o …Other eny gains alt advantage
o …to maintain E
o ...changing targets provide better change for Kill
o …A new biggest threat is ID’d
Target a con, dive on decoy con then switch at last moment.
Target con often maneuvers “less defensively?”
Decoy con often burns E
Did I forget to say evaluate biggest threat?
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here is some advice froma friend of mine that is very good. I thought I would repeat it here.
That's the best advice i've read on here in a lone, long time. :salute
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When I'm fighting a many v. 1 I try and keep the bad guys on the same side of me if possible. Reduces the load on the SA as well as required maneuvering. (basically like fighting 2 guys flying formation)
As has already been said but bears repeating....if you are one of the 'many' then work as a team and set up your runs against the lone ranger. Very mediocre pilots can kill the best if they work together and have a plan.
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As has already been said but bears repeating....if you are one of the 'many' then work as a team and set up your runs against the lone ranger. Very mediocre pilots can kill the best if they work together and have a plan.
If he already has 2-3 close on him then keep your E and watch for other bandits. :D
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Oh that's just crazy talk.
The PROPER thing to do is dive in guns blazin'. After all, if the guy in the 202 is already giving 3+ of your countrymen in Spits fits, he may actually win the fight or something.