Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Ripsnort on June 28, 2000, 08:12:00 AM
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A alot of folks enjoy tank vs tank in this sim, though we're kinda limited. Could you add like a Russian or American tank?
Thanks!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 06-28-2000).]
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Might as well tie me to your coattails rip.
Been agreeing with you right down the line lately!
While a Panzer vs Panzer fight is fun it's Not historical. Best of all would be if we could get both a US & a Russian tank.
Would also be a great time to release mobile artilery don't ya think? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Firefly Sherman would be perfect. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Trouble with the US tanks is that they were no match one on one with the German iron. The Sherman series overcame dramatic shortcomings by deploying in greater numbers and using it's better mobility (The only advantage it had) to out manuver the German units, more often cutting the supply lines and in effect starving (fuel, ammo, food) out their enemies, other than beating them toe to toe.
On the other hand, the late war Russan t-34 series and Studguard TD's flat outclassed anything the German army could put up against them as well. The late T-34s had a good chance of surviving a hit from the tigers at range, and could out manuver them to fight on their own terms.
I don't think anything but the t-34 would be used in the MA if we were given it. I do think that Shermans, or possibly an M-10 TD, and T-34's would be very welcome in the SEA where we could tweak the numbers to make things more even.
just my 1.38 cents.
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Greg 'wmutt' Cook
332nd Flying Mongrels
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What about some british IRON?
considering that we where the ones that did kinda bring in a lot of iron. I do belive that our tanks where pretty good?
Don't know I am not a Tank Exspert
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Sorry B-town. You are absolutly right. A I'm not too familiar with the British WWII tanks. But I do think that we could make room for a Churchill variant or two. I like the Idea of a Churchill Flame driving onto a base and setting hangers on fire.... That would be too cool!!!
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Greg 'wmutt' Cook
332nd Flying Mongrels
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The Firefly is a british varient on the M4...i'm not sure if it is derived from the "easy 8" sherman or the older M4 model...anyway it combines a 17 lber and reworked turret with the M4 chassis. It is not a match for the Panther with regard to armour but outclass's the PZIVh we have in all area's. It's gun is much deadlier than the 75mm pak 48 (or pak 42) in the current pz...and was equal to the german 88 I believe. It would also be competative with the T34/85 and seriously outgun the T34 (1943).
The most interesting addition to the ground game would be the "hellcat"(M-18 I believe) a U.S. tank destroyer that cruised at 80 mph and had a 76mm main gun. Although used in an antitank role it carried a duel purpose gun and HE and smoke ammo was available for it.
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Best british ride was the Comet, the cromwell had 4-5 varients and was the main british built tank in 44. A reasonable match for the current PZIVH but outclassed by the PZVD's. As for russian hardware...the T34(43) was the front line opponent to the PZIV..it's major drawback was the lack of a 3 man turret. This created rate of fire issues and the turret commander could not "fight" the tank from the cupola while engaging with the main gun. I'm a flight sim type so i don't know how far we're gonna go with the ground stuff. The other major component missing is armoured cars...US and germany had fast hard hitting scouts with guns ranging from 37mm to 75mm.
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Exactly right, Humble. The Firefly would hold its own here, easily.
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I'm not a tank expert but I trust any new tanks will be more than worthy and extremely more than welcome! Bring 'em on! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
'Nexx'
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Did the 17pdr have an HE round? it didnt have a smoke round.
An M4A3E8(76mm) would be the ideal next tank.
Lots of ammo. plenty of gun to deal with a panzer IV, 50 cal AAMG, stabilized, Good Gun, armour and speed compared to a PzIVH..
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Here is some info on the M18 Hellcat:
Type: Tank Destroyer
Production Period: Jul. 1943-Oct. 1944
Crew: 5
Primary Armament: 76mm Gun M1A1, M1A1C or M1A2
Ammunition Carried: 45
Secondary Armament :1 x .50 caliber MG HB M2 (AA)
Ammunition Carried: 800
Speed on/off road: 80 km/h
Now here is one of the most important parts of the tank, the armor. Check this out!
The hull armor is only 13mm thick!
The front of the turret is 25mm thick and the mantlet is 19mm thick. This tank sure isnt going to stop any shells hitting it.
All information recieved from http://www.onwar.com/tanks/usa/ftdm18.htm (http://www.onwar.com/tanks/usa/ftdm18.htm)
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While the VC Firefly with the 17pdr is a great tank, I believe if we are going with a Sherman we should consider the M4A3E2-76 Jumbo Sherman. While the Easy Eight is a great tank, I think the much heavy frontal and side armor of the Jumbo would be much more useful.
The Comet and Challanger, along with the Centurion would make great British tanks, all will the 17pdr. Btw they did carry HE rounds.
As far as Russian tanks go...I'd love to see a KV-1C or KV-85 tank, only problem is no plane or the PzIV would be able to kill it with the exception of a rear shot at close range. The Tiger's 88 barely ever made a frontal shot kill on it, and Panthers did only fairly better. A T-34/85 would be a very good choice given it's gun and speed.
Back to US tanks... an M-18 has a top speed of about 55mph (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) the 80 is in km/h. It's kinda hard to say what it's impact would be. It's opened topped so even a .303 or 7.9mm gun has a chance of destroying it, and it only carried 15 HE shells at the max (It was a TD unit after all)
A M-36 Jackson would give a good trade off of excellent gun and speed to again, weak armor and an open top, but it's 90mm is a much more flexiable gun compaired to the M-18's 76mm.
The Panzer IVH is by no means a slouch of a tank, from the lessons learned of the PIV F2 and the earlier IV tanks, and was quite the late war slugger. (Albiet more of a Close support then the Panther or Tiger) and that has to be taken into consideration when developing an allied tank.
Below are most of the stats for the tanks mentioned so far...take a looksie and see what you think would offer the most while keeping the balance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
M4A3E2-76 "Jumbo" Sherman
Speed 35.4 km/h
Off Road 12.0 km/h
Rev Speed 18.0 km/h
Body Mass 37.0 tons
Front Armor 140.0 mm
Side Armor 75.0 mm
Rear Armor 40.0 mm
Front Turret 167.0 mm
Side Turret 153.0 mm
Rear Turret 152.0 mm
Top Armor 25.0 mm
Turret
Traverse Speed 24 degrees per second
Elevate Min -10.0 degrees
Elevate Max 25.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity = 792ms
Projectile Mass 7.0kg
Caliber 76mm
AP Ammo 30
HE Ammo 31
KV-1S (Lighter armor, yet much faster variant)
Speed 45.0 km/h
Off Road 12.0 km/h
Rev Speed 22.5 km/h
Body Mass 42.5 tons
Front Armor 100.0 mm
Side Armor 60.0 mm
Rear Armor 50.0 mm
Front Turret 109.0 mm
Side Turret 85.0 mm
Rear Turret 95.0 mm
Top Armor 30.0 mm
Turret
Traverse Speed 22 degrees per second
Elevate Min -3.0 degrees
Elevate Max 30.0 degrees
Velocity 655 m/s
Projectile Mass 6.3kg
Caliber 76mm
AP Ammo 50
HE Ammo 64
British Comet
Speed 46.7 km/h
Off Road 13.0 km/h
Rev Speed 23.0 km/h
Body Mass 35.8 tons
Front Armor 101.0 mm
Side Armor 50.0 mm
Rear Armor 50.0 mm
Front Turret 101.0 mm
Side Turret 50.0 mm
Rear Turret 50.0 mm
Top Armor 14.0 mm
Turret
Traverse Speed 24 degrees per second
Elevate Min -12.0 degrees
Elevate Max 20.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity 792 m/s
Projectile Mass 7.7kg
Caliber 77mm
AP Ammo 39
HE Ammo 19
Sherman M4A3E8 "Easy Eight"
Speed 41.8 km/h
Off Road 16.0 km/h
Rev Speed 21.0 km/h
Body Mass 32.0 tons
Front Armor 94.0 mm
Side Armor 38.0 mm
Rear Armor 40.0 mm
Front Turret 89.0 mm
Side Turret 65.0 mm
Rear Turret 64.0 mm
Top Armor 25.0 mm
Turrent
Traverse Speed 24 degrees per second
Elevate Min -10.0 degrees
Elevate Max 25.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity 792 m/s
Projectile Mass 7.0kg
Caliber 76mm
AP Ammo 30
HE Ammo 31
M-36 "Jackson" TD
Speed 48.3 km/h
Off Road 14.5 km/h
Rev Speed 24.0 km/h
Body Mass 28.1 tons
Front Armor 88.0 mm
Side Armor 25.0 mm
Rear Armor 22.0 mm
Front Turret 76.0 mm
Side Turret 32.0 mm
Rear Turret 25.0 mm
Top Armor 15.0 mm
Turret
Traverse Speed 30 degrees per second
Elevate Min -10.0 degrees
Elevate Max 20.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity 853 m/s
Projectile Mass 10.9kg
Caliber 90mm
AP Ammo 37
HE Ammo 10
Sherman IIC "FireFly"
Speed 36.0 km/h
Off Road = 12.0 km/h
Rev Speed = 18.0 km/h
Body Mass 34.0 tons
Front Armor 69.0 mm
Side Armor 25.0 mm
Rear Armor 25.0 mm
Front Turret 80.0 mm
Side Turret 26.0 mm
Rear Turret 25.0 mm
Top Armor 19.0 mm
Turret
Traverse Speed 24 degrees per second
Elevate Min -10.0 degrees
Elevate Max 15.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity 883 m/s
Projectile Mass 7.7kg
Caliber 77mm
AP Ammo 50
HE Ammo 27
T-34-85
Speed 55.0 km/h
Off Road 16.5 km/h
Rev Speed 27.5 km/h
Body Mass 32.0 tons
Front Armor 90.0 mm
Side Armor 52.0 mm
Rear Armor 56.0 mm
Front Turret 129.0 mm
Side Turret 103.0 mm
Rear Turret 76.0 mm
Top Armor 20.0 mm
Turret
Traverse Speed 17 degrees per second
Elevate Min -3.0 degrees
Elevate Max 30.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity 792 m/s
Projectile Mass 9.02kg
Caliber 85mm
AP Ammo 35
HE Ammo 20
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Originally posted by fdiron:
Here is some info on the M18 Hellcat:
Type: Tank Destroyer
Production Period: Jul. 1943-Oct. 1944
Crew: 5
Primary Armament: 76mm Gun M1A1, M1A1C or M1A2
Ammunition Carried: 45
Secondary Armament :1 x .50 caliber MG HB M2 (AA)
Ammunition Carried: 800
Speed on/off road: 80 km/h
Now here is one of the most important parts of the tank, the armor. Check this out!
The hull armor is only 13mm thick!
The front of the turret is 25mm thick and the mantlet is 19mm thick. This tank sure isnt going to stop any shells hitting it.
All information recieved from http://www.onwar.com/tanks/usa/ftdm18.htm (http://www.onwar.com/tanks/usa/ftdm18.htm)
and it was open topped wasnt it? not a great advantage in this game.
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M-18 would be TD only...I would kinda perfer a allied main tank before something like it is implemented.
The T-34-85 was one of the fastest main battle tanks of WWII, thus was the legacy of the T-34 gained from the Bt-5 and Bt-7 models.
Btw a Churchill is absolutely useless in this game. It's top speed is only 8mph. It would take FOREVER to get there. The only version that might serve a purpose is the CS-95mm version, and it has even more armor then a regular Churchill making it even slower.
While the Churchill Crocodile is probably the most famous flame tank, the Sherman Flame (M4A3 with 25 gal flame thrower replacing hull MG) and the M5 Flame (M5A1 Stuart with 25-50 gal capcity flame thrower in main gun position) are a little more suited to the AH arena. Not that we need a flame tank anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
M5A1 Stuart would make a nice light tank for busting up bases, but the 37mm is pretty much useless vs something like a Pz IVH
- Jig
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My choices:
either,
(http://www.oz.net/~guerrero/download/t34_43_4.gif)
or,
(http://www.oz.net/~guerrero/download/t34_85_3.gif)
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Was the Sherman so good? I saw on history channel the interview of a US Sherman commander who said that crews had low moral because they knew german tanks were better, especially german shells penetrating Shermans like butter. but he didn't explained in what circumtances nor which period.
Now, I know nothing in old tanks, anybody can explain something short and not too tecky for me please?
[This message has been edited by SFRT - Frenchy (edited 06-28-2000).]
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The best thing about the Sherman was that there were a bunch of them. They were incredibly reliable.
I believe a Sherman was about a match for a PZ IV. But it was a dead duck for Tigers and Panthers. The 88 of a Tiger or 75 of a Panther would go right through a Sherman from any side. To kill either of these, a Sherman needed to get around behind them and get close.
Usually this was done by several Shermans at once and several of them died doing it.
A German tank officer said "It would take 9 Shermans to kill a Tiger. Unfortunately there were usually 10 of them."
This is what happens when you let General Motors build your tank. It ain't fancy, but they run like hell and you can build them like crazy.
Later Shermans were upgunned and had more armor added to them, but this decreased some of their speed.
FYI, I met a man who was a Sherman commander in Europe. He had 2 of the blown out from under him. But, while he was in the rear to get a new Sherman, they gave him one of the first Pershings that arrived. He said he went looking for a Panther. Unfortunatly his company commander found him first and "traded" tanks with him. He had his third Sherman blown out from under him later that week (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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Since the sun now sets in the land of AH could ya start with the PzKpfw Panther Ausf. G equiped with a bildwandler arrangement of the FS1250 night vision device? Next I would like to comment that the T-34/85 or other late model Russian tanks are not invincible against German armor consider the Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B Tiger II:
Speed
Road 38 km/h
Cross Country 17 km/h
Weight 68000kg
Crew 5
Armor
Front turret 180mm
Front armor 150mm
Side turret 80mm
Side armor 80mm
Turret rear 80mm
Armor rear 80mm
Top armor 40mm
Turret Traverse 360 degrees
19 to 77 seconds depending on engine rpm
used to drive hydraulic turret drive.
Armament
88mm KwK 43 L/71 & 3x7.92mm MG34/42
1xMG at hull, coax and cupola positions
Ammo
88mm - 80 to 86 rounds
7.92 - 5850
Armor penetration at 30 degree from vertical at 2000 meters using the following rounds
Panzergranate 39: 132mm
Panzergranate 40/43: 153mm
and it only gets worse as you get closer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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In response to the Shermans, yes they had extreme problems with Tigers, and even more so with the Panthers.
The M4A3E2-76 was an up gunned version of the M4A3E2 "Jumbo" Sherman that had an all new turrent cast that, at the time, was one of the only US tanks capable of withstanding shots from a Tiger or Panther with any success. The 76mm was a decent AT gun, even capable of frontal shots to the Tiger (it's armor is not sloped) but not the Panther.
The stories most hear are from the M4A31 crews that had the lowly 75mm CS infantry gun, quite pityful at attacking any of the heavy German iron. The Jumbo Sherman had some engine and drive train componets reworked too, from the extra weight. (it weights about 5 more tons then the Easy Eight!) with almost no speed loss.
Pershings are great tanks, but saw little use in the ETO and is..as we are trying to avoid I guess, a 1945 machine. Besides you can't have a game without a Sherman at some point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I would love to see ANY of the Panther series, but, there would definatly need to be a Jumbo or a KV series to deal with that monster. Funny as it is, every one thinks the Tiger was an upgrade from the Panther, while it's actually the other way around. The 88mm is more than capable but the Panther's 75mm is absolutely awsome.
The Tiger II would not fair to good in Aces High I think. While unstoppable in combat, it's fuel consumption (more then 2 gallons a mile avg) and speed off a good hard road or pityful. It's monster weight and extremely strained drive train allow it to climb hill of 10 degrees or less, and it would probably take the same roll as the real Tiger II did, as a defensive unit.
But if the Tiger II should be used, an IS-2 or IS-3 Iosef Stalin would have to be considered. They were blow for blow, pretty equal tanks.
Btw BigJoe the KV-1 series are NOT late war monsters...they came out around between 1939-1941...when the Germans were still making use of 37 and 50mm guns on the Pz(38) and Pz III series. KV-1's were to Germans as the Tigers were to the US crews. (Legend has it the developement of the Tiger came from the KV-1, as it is well known the Panther series was designed incoperating the armor like the T-34 did; well sloped)
There are three tank hunters that would probably make any US or British crew wet their pants on sight...the Jagdpanter, a Panter based TD with the 88mm kwk (Capable of over 4km kill shots)
The Elefant, easily the heaviest German tank made prior to the Tiger II and Jagdtiger. Also armed with the 88mm kwk it was a scary sight in 42-43.
And the Jagdtiger. The Biggest, most heavily armed armored fighting vehicle of the war. A 128mm AT gun and extremely thick armor. Talk about unbalancing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
so... since we're interested in late war stuff here ya go (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
A note, the Tiger, Tiger II, Panter series and the Pershing had turn in place gear. I believe these were the only ones equipped with the gear to do that during the entire war.
- Jig
IS-2 "Iosef Stalin"
Speed 37.0 km/h
Off Road 10.0 km/h
Rev Speed 19.0 km/h
Body Mass 46.0 tons
Front Armor 174.0 mm
Side Armor 122.0 mm
Rear Armor 72.0 mm
Front Turret 160.0 mm
Side Turret 110.0 mm
Rear Turret 90.0 mm
Top Armor 45.0 mm
Turrent
Traverse Speed 14 degrees per second
Elevate Min -3.0 degrees
Elevate Max 30.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity 800 m/s
Projectile Mass 24.9 kg (!)
Caliber 122
AP Ammo 18
HE Ammo 10
My stats on the Pz VI Tiger II or "King Tiger"
Speed 38.0 km/h
Off Road 8.5 km/h
Rev Speed 19.0 km/h
Body Mass 69.7 tons
Front Armor 195.0 mm
Side Armor 84.0 mm
Rear Armor 92.0 mm
Front Turret = 215.0 mm
Side Turret = 86.0 mm
RearTurret = 86.0 mm
TopArmor = 40.0 mm
Turret
TraverseSpeed 18 degrees per second avg
Elevate Min -7.4 degrees
Elevate Max 15.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity 1000 m/s
Projectile Mass 10.2kg
Caliber 88mm
AP Ammo 44
HE Ammo 40
Pz V "Panther" G
Speed 46.0 km/h
Off Road 12.0 km/h
Rev Speed 23.0 km/h
Body Mass 44.8 tons
Front Armor 122.0 mm
Side Armor 50.0 mm
Rear Armor 46.0 mm
Front Turret 150.0 mm
Side Turret 50.0 mm
Rear Turret 50.0 mm
Top Armor 16.0 mm
Turrent
Traverse Speed 20 degrees per second
ElevateMin -8.0 degrees
ElevateMax 18.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity 925 m/s
Projectile Mass 6.8kg
Caliber 75mm
AP Ammo 49
HE Ammo 32
T-26 "Pershing"
Speed 32.2 km/h
OffRoad 8.0 km/h
Rev Speed 17.0 km/h
BodyMass 41.8 tons
Front Armor 137.0 mm
Side Armor 64.0 mm
Rear Armor 51.0 mm
Front Turret 140.0 mm
Side Turret 76.0 mm
Rear Turret 76.0 mm
Top Armor 24.0 mm
Turret
Traverse Speed 27 degrees per second
ElevateMin -10.0 degrees
ElevateMax 20.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity 853 m/s
Projectile Mass 10.9 kg
Caliber 90mm
AP Ammo 35
HE Ammo 35
British Centurion (Probably the best British tank made during WWII (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Speed 37.0 km/h
Off Road 10.0 km/h
Rev Speed 18.0 km/h
Body Mass 42.0 tons
Front Armor 177.0 mm
Side Armor 74.0 mm
Rear Armor 70.0 mm
Front Turret 152.0 mm
Side Turret 74.0 mm
Rear Turret 70.0 mm
Top Armor 20.0 mm
Turret
Traverse Speed = 24 degrees per second
Elevate Min -12.5 degrees
Elevate Max 20.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity 883 m/s
Projectile Mass 7.7 kg
Caliber 77mm
AP Ammo 39
HE Ammo 19
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 06-29-2000).]
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RE: KV-1
Yeah, it was definitely an early war tank, seeing combat right from the beginning of Barbarossa. It was finally phased out after the arrival of the T-34/85 and IS-I.
This tank was practically invincible from any German tank until the arrival of the Tiger.
While a good tank for an assault, the KV had no where near the speed of a T-34, and that is why I pick the T-34: speed!
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 06-29-2000).]
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Lets give the Russians and the yanks T-34 and Sherman, but give the germans the "elephant" with 380mm cannon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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You can have the Elefant, along with its meager ammo load. You better be a good shot!
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Hmmm sounds like I'd be happy with any of the above!
Shermans, for their speed & manuverablity would be just right for sneak attacks.
Also one of the British tanks with the 17pdr would be interesting.
We would then at least be able to set up a more historic N africa scenario.
Pyro?
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Granted, the Sherman would require more hits to kill the MarkIV, but imagine the MarkIV trying to hit the sherman as it's buzzing in circles?!? It was alot faster, and could turn better...
How about the Churchill?
I like the T34 suggestion the best, considering we have 2 Russian planes that could make up a great Russian Front scenario...
Sherman could make use of the most variants, you could make the Sherman, then every month add a new variant with little coding effort (I believe)...
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Hmm I was checking on the Elephant, it always carried a low load out of 88mm kwk shells as far as I can tell. Given that was scary enough in 42-43, that particular gun has the best armor penetration at range of any tank gun during the war.
390mm? The biggest gun ever put on a tank I can recall are the 290mm Spigot mortars put on Churchill AVRE's, and a big springed spigot ain't got much range (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rip, the Pz IV's 25mph is about average speed of all main battle tanks at the time. It's about 38 km/h, or equal to the Sherman "Jumbo". Most other Shermans avg about 44-48 km/h depending on variant.
The big difference is off road speeds, or how fast it can travel in low traction conditions such as mud, snow, climbing hills, crater holes, etc.
I would really rather not see a Churchill, it is so slow it would be of little use, and the standard 75mm gun is very weak. The only plus it has is armor, and the Sherman Jumbo, any of the late Panzer's and Russian tanks give better options. Some kind of Sherman variant would be best for then a British Sherman V and IIC Firefly would not be hard to model. Plus there are the artillary version Shermans such as the Calliope rocket carrier, and the M10 and M36 TD's all used the Sherman body.
Anybody who tells you the Pz IVH is a poor tank is full of it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
More stuff below, Pz IVH
I only have stuff for the early Churchills, up to the 57mm version. The highest speed I get out of them is 24 km/h or about 13 mph on a GOOD road.
- Jig
Pz IVH
Speed 38.0 km/h
Off Road 8 km/h
Rev Speed 19.0 km/h
Body Mass 25.0 tons
Front Armor 82.0mm
Side Armor 30.0mm
Rear Armor 21.0mm
Front Turret 80.0mm
Side Turret 33.0mm
Rear Turret 30.0mm
Top Armor 10.0mm
Turret
Traverse Speed 14 degees per second
Elevate Min -8.0 degrees
Elevate Max 20.0 degrees
Projectile Velocity 790 m/s
Projectile Mass 6.8kg
Caliber 75mm
AP Ammo 52
HE Ammo 35
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 06-29-2000).]
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Originally posted by Jigster:
390mm? The biggest gun ever put on a tank I can recall are the 290mm Spigot mortars put on Churchill AVRE's, and a big springed spigot ain't got much range (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oops sorry wrong tank, it was a 380mm mortar cannon and it was monted on a Sturmtiger:
"It is reported that once a single shot fired by a sturmtiger from PzStuMrKp 1001 Completly destroyed three M4 shermans"
*drools*
www.achtungpanzer.com/sttig.htm
[This message has been edited by Torquila (edited 06-30-2000).]
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"In December of 1942, Krupp created new design of 1500 ton tank - P 1500. Its frontal armor would be 250mm thick and it would be armed with 800mm mortar "Dora" type. P 1500 would be powered by two or four submarine diesel engines. In early 1943, Albert Speer cancelled both projects."
If only.... *sigh*
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Granted, the Sherman would require more hits to kill the MarkIV, but imagine the MarkIV trying to hit the sherman as it's buzzing in circles?!? It was alot faster, and could turn better...
Buzzing in circles? hehe if u r moving and trying to fire close to one of those "monsters" you would be dead real quick. If i were in the MarkIV i'd just stop and pop ya
SKurj
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"One day a Tiger Royal tank got within 150 yards of my tank and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him from ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got five or six hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like Tiger, we would all be home today." - Report by tank commander Sergeant Clyde D. Brunson from 2nd Armored Division, 1945.
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Rendar
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There was only 2 ways of knocking out a Tiger II with undergunned tanks like the Shermans. One was to make your first shot right at the main gun plate with a HE round, (Hopefully before he could track you) and jam, bend or kill the gunner with spall fragments. This was considered a last effort, because you had to get it as close to perpendicular as possible.
The second was to get behind at close range and fire into the lower portion of the hull where it is flat, and kill the engine with an AP round. That would disable the turrent (until they got the hand crank on, but traverse was less then 7 dgrs a second by hand); or fire down upon the top armor of the engine compartment (very thin) with a HE round. There's a real good chance that the gas fumes would catch fire, which normally in turn caught the main gun ammo on fire.
In practice, if the Tiger II didn't have infantry support it was easier to send in a few men with grenades to disable it, but in the meantime, the other tanks would have to take fire.
The only tank's I'm aware of killing a Tiger II head on with one shot are the 90mm equiped
US tanks (Namely just the M36) and the larger soviet tanks like the Su-122 and IS-2
- Jig
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Jigster (u walking wealth of knowledge (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))you have a good point and I do agree that the TigerII was to slow to keep up with itself let alone a T-34. I was kinda thinking along the lines of it being in the AH sim where the only thing a tank can do is get bombed by a plane or shot at by enemy tanks and if thats the case give me the TigerII. Until tanks in AH serve some tactical or strategic importance I don't think the need for speed or worrying about fuel consumption is going to be a big factor in AH now. You'd just need more patience getting to your destination or spawn at the defending hangar and start shooting.
I'm pretty sure the Panther V Ausf.G was close to equal terms with the T-34 especially in real life with superior optics, tactics and communictions, it would give the T-34 a run for its money. Think it would be a great addition to AH if or when "mickey mouse" does show its ugly face.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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Actually, even the M36 had trouble killing the tiger2 with head on shots. I read a true story about a group of shermans who accidently ran into a Tiger II at close range. The TigerII killed one of the shermans before they even spotted it. So the Shermans then decided to try to flank it so 2 tried to go around each side of the TigerII. That ended up with another Sherman exploding. So the Shermans called in for support. An M36 was brought in and fired at close range, about 400meters if I recall correctly. The AP round from the M36 was fired at the TigerII's frontal armor but shattered due to the hardness of it. The M36 was then destroyed by the TigerII. The author of the story, who was comanding one of the destroyed shermans, believed that they finally destroyed the TigerII with air support or artillery.
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When trying to knock out a Tiger II, the safest was definately the rear. The 90mm was a good gun, but the combined thickness of the armor plus sloping either deflected it if is was not a near perfect perpendicular shot or shattered it. But in any case the M36 was the best AT they had at the time, and that thing was not meant to go blow for blow with any heavy armor. Early HVAP and HEAT rounds were about the only usefull round vs a Tiger II and they weren't all that good. IMO those tankers were in a bad way when they saw the business end of that mutha (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 07-05-2000).]
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The only western front weapon capable of engaging german armour on an equal basis was the 17 lber. The US 90mm had double the rate of fire but inferior balistics. The Firefly and Achilles (sorry for spellng) are the only 2 vehicles equipped with 17 lber...unless Comet was also.
As for vehicle set...I'd think you'd want a tank from each nation (eventually), a troop carrier, a scout, an assult gun and/or a tank destroyer.
At that point you'd have all the flexability for game play without taxing the design team to roll out a zillion vehicles
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Pz Mk IV F2/G/H modelled is a fair match for the Sherman. Not a lot to choose between them.
For late war the tactical motif in the Westfront is tigers and Panthers with longer range guns against shermans.
On the East front it is more even. What is the point though in AH when if Panthers are rpovided who will mtake a sherman? Maybe if there were points for the difference in quality? Or more tactical scenarios.
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Originally posted by humble:
The only western front weapon capable of engaging german armour on an equal basis was the 17 lber. The US 90mm had double the rate of fire but inferior balistics. The Firefly and Achilles (sorry for spellng) are the only 2 vehicles equipped with 17 lber...unless Comet was also.
As for vehicle set...I'd think you'd want a tank from each nation (eventually), a troop carrier, a scout, an assult gun and/or a tank destroyer.
At that point you'd have all the flexability for game play without taxing the design team to roll out a zillion vehicles
By the time the allies were coming into Germany, alot of the British main battle tanks were equipped with 17 pdr retro fits. Includes Churchills (a monster once it finally got a good gun).
While the 17pdr does have a longer range, due to the smaller caliber and greater speed, it's kinetic enegy at long range is lower then the 90mm shell, and thus for the standard APCBC rounds, the 90mm's penetration is greater. At closer ranges, the 17pdr become a much greater gun because it still has it's speed advantage. This differs depending on how you look at it. Staying as far away from the German iron as possible was desirable, but due to their guns being good at close and long range (with the exception of the Tiger's gun, it lost alot of power past 2.5km, as all guns do, but the German 75L70mm and 88L71/kwk were still very potent at this range) To give you an idea, the 90mm was a much better gun, ballastic wise then the Tiger's 88L56.
90mm
projectile muzzle velocity: 853 m/s
shell mass (penetrating portion only): 10.9kg
17pdr (77mm)
projectile muzzle velocity: 883 m/s
shell mass (penetrating portion only): 7.7kg
88L56
projectile muzzle velocity: 773 m/s
shell mass (penetrating portion only): 10.2kg
75L70
projectile muzzle velocity: 925 m/s
shell mass (penetrating portion only): 6.8kg
The real problem with the 17 pdr's was the lack of good HE shells supplies. Where as normally there was 30-35 normal AP shells takin in a 17pdr equipped tank, only 15 HE shells or so were taken so their close support roll is very limited vs something like the German tanks (Who nearly always took half and half, about 40 shells of each) and the American 76 and 90mm guns (who also carried quite a bit more ammunition than the British tanks).
But this is normal because the 17pdr was considered an almost pure AT gun, so there weren't many provisions for HE shells.
Archilles was not meant to engage German iron headon either. Essentially it's a M10 Wolverine (M4A1 or M4A3 Sherman based body) with an open top turrent with a 17pdr gun mount. It's very thin skinned. The Firefly is not much better, depending on variant that varies from the M4A3 up to the E8 and even the Jumbo body with the Firefly turrent cast. None were capable of taking hits from any of the late war German monsters. Good chance with the PzIV series though. Shot for shot, the Western Allies' best bet were on the few Pershings around, 17pdr equipped Churchills, Comets, and Challengers, and the Sherman Jumbos.
Unfortunately, most of the work was done by M4A3 crews who were severly outclassed and had to call upon the M10 Wolverines for TD duty
- Jig
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You guys want a squeak'n Sim try this turn base oh...well can't have it all.... http://www.battlefront.com/downloads/index.html (http://www.battlefront.com/downloads/index.html)
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Originally posted by Torque:
You guys want a squeak'n Sim try this turn base oh...well can't have it all.... http://www.battlefront.com/downloads/index.html (http://www.battlefront.com/downloads/index.html)
Yeah, I just d/l'ed today. Love SP:WAW, but I'm real curious to see how this pans out. I remember when this game was going to be computer Squad Leader before Avalon Hill bailed. These guys are going to do an Eastern front, right?
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Not that I know *anything* about tanks by a long shot, but I suspect that the M1 was designed by someone who was a WW2 Sherman driver and who said to himself, "enough of this toejam!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Naw, let's make life really interesting
M18mgc M3 H/t with either 57mm or 90mm gun
(forget which) imagine sitting in a panzer trying to decide if those H/t's coming your way are a treat or a threat? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Originally posted by pzvg:
Naw, let's make life really interesting
M18mgc M3 H/t with either 57mm or 90mm gun
(forget which) imagine sitting in a panzer trying to decide if those H/t's coming your way are a treat or a threat? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Prolly 57mm or 76mm, 90mm's recoil would require a recoil anchor.
However, an M-3 carrying M1 or M9 Bazookas, mortar pack, or towing a 90mm AT gun would be great (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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Originally posted by leonid:
Yeah, I just d/l'ed today. Love SP:WAW, but I'm real curious to see how this pans out. I remember when this game was going to be computer Squad Leader before Avalon Hill bailed. These guys are going to do an Eastern front, right?
The original Steel Panthers is nestled snuggly on my HD and still see's a good bit O' use (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Can't beat the classics (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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yup, steel panthers still a great game. I've got Iron Cross around somewhere as well. Not as good as steel panthers in alot of ways but not a bad oldie.
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Jigster, I think the APDS round was preffered from mid 44 on in the 17pdr.
Prjectile muzzle velocity 1204 m/s
projectile mass (penetrator) 3.71 kg
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LOL SnakeEyes, You got that right!
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The Panther's 75mm gun actually had better armor penetration than the Tigers 88mm. Both could easily slice through Shermans and T34s though. There is a recorded case of a Tiger 1 destroying a T34 at 4 miles. Wow. I dont believe the M4 Shermans had a special gun sight for the APDS round, they just had to "guesstimate". Also, the M1 tank used today was inspired by a Sherman tank commander, Gen. Abrahms.
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Originally posted by fdiron:
The Panther's 75mm gun actually had better armor penetration than the Tigers 88mm. Both could easily slice through Shermans and T34s though. There is a recorded case of a Tiger 1 destroying a T34 at 4 miles. Wow. I dont believe the M4 Shermans had a special gun sight for the APDS round, they just had to "guesstimate". Also, the M1 tank used today was inspired by a Sherman tank commander, Gen. Abrahms.
I'm almost absolutely sure that it was actually a Tiger II (The 88 on the Pz VI was very poor at range) and the tank that was knocked out at 4 miles was a M4A3 Sherman.
I know it happened on the Western front after the Normandy Invasions.
- Jig
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
Jigster, I think the APDS round was preffered from mid 44 on in the 17pdr.
Prjectile muzzle velocity 1204 m/s
projectile mass (penetrator) 3.71 kg
Righto but you must consider, for comparison purposes every tank had APCBC rounds at one time, so that the results are accurate when looking at different guns. In other word, the avergae brute force the gun has.
Also, not all tanks had APDS, APCR and HVAP, depending on supplies and the unit's usage, but the APCBC rounds were always there, and in much greater numbers.
I just don't think the 17pdr would be of much good use in AH because of the limit on HE shells, with the exception of maybe a towed gun or an Archilles.
The 76L54 gun would prolly be the best to work with because of it's wide usage, while still keeping away from the lousy 75L38 gun.
I think AH has proven the tanks need a good rounded-out capability in all areas, such as the PIV series. I Guess it would change once an SP gun comes around but nearly all are open-topped so air attacks would kill them easy. Only bet is a Sherman 105, and would really be good if it had some HVAP rounds (but that goes against my beliefs on modeling (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
- Jig
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Actually development of the M1 was the result of the total failure of the MBT 70 project, which suffered heavily from too many gadget disease,coupled with the hard data on the M-60 series tanks shortcomings,
(as demonstrated by the Isreali's in '73 war,the hard way) American tanks are always named after US general officers, and Gen Abrams had just passed away, and was widely acknowledged in the US army as a "tanker's tanker"
FYI from an old DAT
(Dumb bellybutton Tanker and proud of it)
Nothing says CYA! like a 120mm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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only concrete ref i've read is in user manual for Panzer Commander...mentions a tiger 2 kiling a T-34 at 4.5 kil.
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Btw for anyone who stil has Steel Panters check out http://www.geocities.com/~slhq/ (http://www.geocities.com/~slhq/)
Get the OOB files he's got their, they make the game a million times better to play with infantry. Also recommend the new icons and sounds. Oh yeah and get SP v1.2 patch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If anyone's interested in an E-mail game lemme know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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Forcing the M4 series on American tankers was the great silent scandal of WW2 armor.
The Pershing could have been deployed in strength prior to the landing at Normandy but the fear of disrupting the mass produced M4s
kept the development of Pershing to a trickle.
Hundreds if not thousands of US tank crewmen paid for this decision with their lives.
Yeager
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<punt>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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"Just sayin..." -- Pasha
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Originally posted by Torquila:
Lets give the Russians and the yanks T-34 and Sherman, but give the germans the "elephant" with 380mm cannon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Only german armour with a 380mm gun was a Bismark class Battleship.
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Too balance with the PnZ IVh that we have, I think these two would be good:
T-34/76
M4 Sherman
About the Sherman being a scandal forced on US Tankers, my Tank buff friend (ex M1A1 Platoon commander) says that if he had been a US tanker in WWII, he wouldn't have given a rats bellybutton about the patriotism involved with US boys using US designed tanks. He would have wanted the US to license the T-34 design from Russia like we did the Merlin engine from the Brits. He considers it a travesty that US soldier were forced to drive M4s into battle.
As far as tanks go, he agreed with my assesment of a fair three way mix, e.g. PnZ IVh, M4 Sherman and T-34/76. He did say that given the choices he would always take a PnZ IVh if he wanted to be Axis (funny that) and a T-34/76 if he wanted to be Allied in this mix.
Sisu
-Karnak
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SturmTiger,
380mm mortar.
Ammunitions 14(+1 in barrel) weight was ~350kg
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/sturm_2.jpg)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 07-27-2000).]
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Too balance with the PnZ IVh that we have, I think these two would be good:
T-34/76
M4 Sherman
About the Sherman being a scandal forced on US Tankers, my Tank buff friend (ex M1A1 Platoon commander) says that if he had been a US tanker in WWII, he wouldn't have given a rats bellybutton about the patriotism involved with US boys using US designed tanks. He would have wanted the US to license the T-34 design from Russia like we did the Merlin engine from the Brits. He considers it a travesty that US soldier were forced to drive M4s into battle.
As far as tanks go, he agreed with my assesment of a fair three way mix, e.g. PnZ IVh, M4 Sherman and T-34/76. He did say that given the choices he would always take a PnZ IVh if he wanted to be Axis (funny that) and a T-34/76 if he wanted to be Allied in this mix.
Sisu
-Karnak
Which is why I push for a M4A3E2-76 Sherman (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) It's armor and 76mm would make a great balance between the PzIVH and the T-34/76c(perhaps a little to much). And if not the E2, then the Sherman 105 close support tank (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I believe all the stats are above (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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Your plane may be faster then my tank, but my tank will run over your plane.
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You know the one thing I find amusing is folks extolling the virtues of the PanZerkampfwagenV (G) (guess what the caps in it mean)
and it's awesome 75mm gun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
uh, guys the pzIVH has the same gun, and both of them, (not to mention anyother tank)
just well and truely suck against aircraft.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(pzvg,who wants his Panther very badly,but would like a wirblwind to protect it from spit drivers)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Originally posted by Torquila:
Lets give the Russians and the yanks T-34 and Sherman, but give the germans the "elephant" with 380mm cannon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
In my sources Elephant is 88L71 equipped heavily armored tank, with profile similar looking to Nashorn.
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Originally posted by humble:
only concrete ref i've read is in user manual for Panzer Commander...mentions a tiger 2 kiling a T-34 at 4.5 kil.
Tiger I has lower velocity 88mm, 88L56 while Tiger II has higher velocity, 88L71
If I remember right, 88L71 has velocity of 1018m/s and 88L56 had 773m/s, quite much difference (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also talking about 4km kill was about Tiger I right?
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My suggestion would be Sherman and T-34/76, if we go with the Pz-IVh
Next step would be Panther, T-34/85, FireFly and Jumbo.
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Originally posted by pzvg:
You know the one thing I find amusing is folks extolling the virtues of the PanZerkampfwagenV (G) (guess what the caps in it mean)
and it's awesome 75mm gun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
uh, guys the pzIVH has the same gun, and both of them, (not to mention anyother tank)
just well and truely suck against aircraft.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(pzvg,who wants his Panther very badly,but would like a wirblwind to protect it from spit drivers)
The Panthers 75mm KwK 42(L70)Barrel length 5.25 meters. could penetrate 100 mm of armour at a 90 degree angle at 2300 meters.
The Panzer IV H has a 75mm KwK 40(L48) Barrel length 3.8 meters. I cant find exact numbers like I can for the Panther but its 100mm penatration range is more like 500m
A panther could kill a Panzer IV at over 2500 meters. A Panzer IV would have to be at very close range to penetrate the 200mm or so of frontal armour that the panther has on its hull (90/35) * 80mm of steel. It probably could not penetrate the hull and would have to hope for a turrent hit. The turrent armour is 90mm or so with a 100 mm mantlet over most of it.
It should be noted that the 75mm on the Panzer IV was no slouch. It was fine against T34s and Shermans. Out gunned most of them. The Panther was just rediculous.
Your name sake is a MUCH better tank than you know.
These where entirely different guns. They fired total different amunition to totaly different effect. Panther Batallion doctrin on the eastern front tried to keep engagments in the 2500m range.....!In AH those long range fights are much more likely.
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 07-29-2000).]
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Originally posted by pzvg:
You know the one thing I find amusing is folks extolling the virtues of the PanZerkampfwagenV (G) (guess what the caps in it mean)
and it's awesome 75mm gun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
uh, guys the pzIVH has the same gun, and both of them, (not to mention anyother tank)
just well and truely suck against aircraft.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(pzvg,who wants his Panther very badly,but would like a wirblwind to protect it from spit drivers)
The Panthers 75mm KwK 42(L70)Barrel length 5.25 meters. could penetrate 100 mm of armour at a 90 degree angle at 2300 meters.
The Panzer IV H has a 75mm KwK 40(L48) Barrel length 3.8 meters. I cant find exact numbers like I can for the Panther but its 100mm penatration range is more like 500m
A panther could kill a Panzer IV at over 2500 meters. A Panzer IV would have to be at very close range to penetrate the 200mm or so of frontal armour that the panther has on its hull (90/35) * 80mm of steel. It probably could not penetrate the hull and would have to hope for a turrent hit. The turrent armour is 90mm or so with a 100 mm mantlet over most of it.
It should be noted that the 75mm on the Panzer IV was no slouch. It was fine against T34s and Shermans. Out gunned most of them. The Panther was just rediculous.
Your name sake is a MUCH better tank than you know.
These where entirely different guns. They fired total different amunition to totaly different effect. Panther Batallion doctrin on the eastern front tried to keep engagments in the 2500m range.....!In AH those long range fights are much more likely.
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 07-29-2000).][/B]
The 2500m range came from the Tiger I's shells plonking off the Kv series. They really hated that thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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Originally posted by Fishu:
In my sources Elephant is 88L71 equipped heavily armored tank, with profile similar looking to Nashorn.
I cannot imagine coming up against a Elephant in late 1942 or early 1943...here is a tank with the same gun as the Tiger II and armor that rivals the Jagdtiger. No doubt it made a few tank drivers wet their pants. Luckily it had no turrent (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Tiger I has lower velocity 88mm, 88L56 while Tiger II has higher velocity, 88L71
If I remember right, 88L71 has velocity of 1018m/s and 88L56 had 773m/s, quite much difference (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also talking about 4km kill was about Tiger I right?
It was a Tiger II, I don't think the Tiger has enough elevation or power to chuck a shell that far, with any power to kill with.
The 88L56 was much more of a multipurpose gun then the 88L71, and often doubled for a field artillary piece (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
While the L71 was a very good gun in all aspects, it's strong point was anti-tank.
- Jig
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Hmmm 60 some odd posts and no response from the HTC crew so far...guess we can speculate and accumulate all we want (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
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Is this thing on?
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Jig
No worry about meeting a Ferdinand in 42 or early 43. It was introduced at Kursk(summer 43)
The 2500m doctrine was because they could kill the T34 at that range(and hit it because of all that velocity)
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Jig
No worry about meeting a Ferdinand in 42 or early 43. It was introduced at Kursk(summer 43)
The 2500m doctrine was because they could kill the T34 at that range(and hit it because of all that velocity)
I was kidding about the Kv...although it's probably not far from the truth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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Ok pongo I stand corrected on the barrel length, but BFD, <shrugs> we got mkIV's offing mkIV's with frontal shots at 2.6, how would the Panther destabilize <sp> something as far outta whack as this? Jeez I see guys here pushing for the T34-85, a tank that is still considered a threat (minor one,but on the list) today.
FyI the Elefant more correctly known as the Ferdinand, was a tank destroyer, not a tank (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And the folks with books spread in front of them (steading trying to quote from memory like a true grognard (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) still gloss over the fact that this place is not good tank country, too little vegetation and too many damn planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(So in fact you-all be sayin thet mah lil ol'
pinter be a mite daanegeroos, an' you-uns be askeert?)
Go on pyro, give 'em the sucky little T-34, and the lovely little tracked cigerette lighters, as long as you give me a downed pilot figure,with button 2 as a gunsight per the panzer, only my loadout be 4 HE shells with short range, Pfaust anyone? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
note: pfausts would only be disabled at a field by destroying the barracks, oh and no bloody icons if you please, let's see how bad these DATwannabees are when they can't see the little sneaky devils (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(Pzvg, who as a tanker has a healthy respect for AT Teams) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"